fox has been great to the big east

(08-27-2022 10:04 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  * If UConn eventually leaves for an all-sports league (which would seemingly be at least a 50-50 chance given what is unfolding with the P5) ... ?

Less than 50/50, in that putting UConn in another mid-tier basketball conference to prop up football. does nothing for them.

(08-27-2022 10:04 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  * Can either St. John's or Georgetown become nationally relevant again? Having both as mediocre as they have been for seemingly many years now ... not good for the league.

Here's the scary part: Georgetown doesn't think it's irrelevant and doesn't want to change. It's still 1985 inside the basketball office.

St. John's may be gone for good. It's burned out the most loyal college fan base in NYC.

(08-27-2022 10:04 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  * Can DePaul ever be at least respectable? I have followed/cheered for the Blue Demon program since 1987 and the lack of competitiveness continues to be a head-scratcher — and a negative for the BE.

Can they? Yes. Will they? Probably not.

(08-27-2022 10:04 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  * If we see three (or even four) super conferences of 20 to 24 members each, how does the Big East counter with the sheer numbers needed for both regular season TV visibility and NCAA tourney selections? This is where the Gonzaga to the BE element could come into play.

Adding Gonzaga is a repeat of Butler: you're adding a coach who, after he goes, watches the program shrink. It's a short-sighted option.

(08-27-2022 08:36 AM)Owls9878 Wrote:  Villanova has carried the Big East IMO pretty much since the split from the football schools. With Jay Wright leaving, I’m extremely skeptical Villanova continuing its sustained success. If Nova falls back to the pack, that’s going to adversely impact ratings and their next contract. A shame the Big East couldn’t get the contract extended prior to Wright retiring.

Over the last 6 NCAA tournaments, BE teams have won 36 games. Villanova won 20 of those. 24 of those 36 wins came in 2016-2018 and only 12 in the next three seasons.
In the past three years, Nova has 7 wins, Creighton has 3 and Providence has 2.

If Villanova becomes ordinary, the shine will be off the Big East as a power hoops league.

(08-27-2022 06:40 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(08-27-2022 10:04 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  * If UConn eventually leaves for an all-sports league (which would seemingly be at least a 50-50 chance given what is unfolding with the P5) ... ?

Less than 50/50, in that putting UConn in another mid-tier basketball conference to prop up football. does nothing for them.

(08-27-2022 10:04 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  * Can either St. John's or Georgetown become nationally relevant again? Having both as mediocre as they have been for seemingly many years now ... not good for the league.

Here's the scary part: Georgetown doesn't think it's irrelevant and doesn't want to change. It's still 1985 inside the basketball office.

St. John's may be gone for good. It's burned out the most loyal college fan base in NYC.

(08-27-2022 10:04 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  * Can DePaul ever be at least respectable? I have followed/cheered for the Blue Demon program since 1987 and the lack of competitiveness continues to be a head-scratcher — and a negative for the BE.

Can they? Yes. Will they? Probably not.

(08-27-2022 10:04 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  * If we see three (or even four) super conferences of 20 to 24 members each, how does the Big East counter with the sheer numbers needed for both regular season TV visibility and NCAA tourney selections? This is where the Gonzaga to the BE element could come into play.

Adding Gonzaga is a repeat of Butler: you're adding a coach who, after he goes, watches the program shrink. It's a short-sighted option.

Agree that UConn will not leave for a so-so hoops league. But if the Big 12 (with, say, 24 programs) is home to Cuse, BC, Pitt, Louisville, Cincinnati and West Virginia — and invites UConn ... UConn will either need to accept or stay in the BE and drop football.

I'm more hopeful about DePaul than you.

As to GU ... Big Pat realistically needs to go.

I feel Gonzaga can stay relevant after Few leaves. But who knows. There are many who share your view on this.

(08-27-2022 06:55 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(08-27-2022 08:36 AM)Owls9878 Wrote:  Villanova has carried the Big East IMO pretty much since the split from the football schools. With Jay Wright leaving, I’m extremely skeptical Villanova continuing its sustained success. If Nova falls back to the pack, that’s going to adversely impact ratings and their next contract. A shame the Big East couldn’t get the contract extended prior to Wright retiring.

Over the last 6 NCAA tournaments, BE teams have won 36 games. Villanova won 20 of those. 24 of those 36 wins came in 2016-2018 and only 12 in the next three seasons.
In the past three years, Nova has 7 wins, Creighton has 3 and Providence has 2.

If Villanova becomes ordinary, the shine will be off the Big East as a power hoops league.

Thanks for illustrating the point I was trying to make. The fate of the next Big East contract largely falls on Nova’s ability or inability to keep the gravy train rolling.

(08-27-2022 10:38 PM)Owls9878 Wrote:  

(08-27-2022 06:55 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(08-27-2022 08:36 AM)Owls9878 Wrote:  Villanova has carried the Big East IMO pretty much since the split from the football schools. With Jay Wright leaving, I’m extremely skeptical Villanova continuing its sustained success. If Nova falls back to the pack, that’s going to adversely impact ratings and their next contract. A shame the Big East couldn’t get the contract extended prior to Wright retiring.

Over the last 6 NCAA tournaments, BE teams have won 36 games. Villanova won 20 of those. 24 of those 36 wins came in 2016-2018 and only 12 in the next three seasons.
In the past three years, Nova has 7 wins, Creighton has 3 and Providence has 2.

If Villanova becomes ordinary, the shine will be off the Big East as a power hoops league.

Thanks for illustrating the point I was trying to make. The fate of the next Big East contract largely falls on Nova’s ability or inability to keep the gravy train rolling.

The use of that term might be a bit extreme. But I can see how some (and perhaps many) share your view.

I don’t think it’s on ‘Nova to carry the brand. This is as much on all the others to step up, and either replace or complement VU regardless of whether they falter or remain at a top level.

This conference really needs multiple schools like Villanova, who can consistently compete. THAT is what has been largely missing in the conference since the split. And it’s not meant as a slap to those good years a Xavier, Creighton, Providence, or Marquette have had. Just that those guys have come to surface from time to time, but haven’t stayed around like Villanova has had. And it’s not like Villanova has been the D1 world-beater completely throughout the split. They just tended to be the Big East’s consistent top team. Again, not entirely the greatest look for the conference.

Could be far worse, though. That first year after the split…how the A10 trended up for bids and got more than the Big East. Seems so long ago. The Big East won’t have that kind of drop-off…to a point where we wonder whether they even deserve a second bid.

What’s going to kill the Big East eventually is that even the bottom tier P2 programs are going to have more money in pocket change than the entire budgets of their basketball programs.

Not a whole they can do IMO.

(08-27-2022 04:26 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(08-27-2022 08:36 AM)Owls9878 Wrote:  Villanova has carried the Big East IMO pretty much since the split from the football schools. With Jay Wright leaving, I’m extremely skeptical Villanova continuing its sustained success. If Nova falls back to the pack, that’s going to adversely impact ratings and their next contract. A shame the Big East couldn’t get the contract extended prior to Wright retiring.

They need to add football at some point if they want to stay in the game IMO.

That's what people were saying fifteen years ago -- which is to say three Final Fours and two National Championships ago.

Temple's football program (which would be about the level to which Villanova could aspire) hasn't done the Owls' basketball any favors.

Villanova -- and the rest of the Big East -- will be just fine.

(08-28-2022 10:52 AM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  What’s going to kill the Big East eventually is that even the bottom tier P2 programs are going to have more money in pocket change than the entire budgets of their basketball programs.

Not a whole they can do IMO.

The bottom tier of the P2 have been out-earning the Big East for decades, but the Big East was seven games over .500 against those leagues last year.

The Big East school's urban locations in recruiting hotbeds make the league very well-positioned for the foreseeable future.

(08-28-2022 06:47 PM)OneSockUp Wrote:  

(08-28-2022 10:52 AM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  What’s going to kill the Big East eventually is that even the bottom tier P2 programs are going to have more money in pocket change than the entire budgets of their basketball programs.

Not a whole they can do IMO.

The bottom tier of the P2 have been out-earning the Big East for decades, but the Big East was seven games over .500 against those leagues last year.

The Big East school's urban locations in recruiting hotbeds make the league very well-positioned for the foreseeable future.

It's definitely a strategic risk though. If Northwestern and Minnesota and Rutgers--and South Carolina and Ole Miss and Vanderbilt-- are making $70M a year in TV money, and they budget 15% of that for basketball, that's $10.5M. I don't expect us to be able to keep up. Our programs won't be strapped, but we'll be operating at an economic disadvantages, which hasn't been the case up to now.

Then again, I expected the SEC Network to allow SEC baseball to really compete for talent with the minor leagues. Shrug.

(08-28-2022 06:56 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(08-28-2022 06:47 PM)OneSockUp Wrote:  

(08-28-2022 10:52 AM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  What’s going to kill the Big East eventually is that even the bottom tier P2 programs are going to have more money in pocket change than the entire budgets of their basketball programs.

Not a whole they can do IMO.

The bottom tier of the P2 have been out-earning the Big East for decades, but the Big East was seven games over .500 against those leagues last year.

The Big East school's urban locations in recruiting hotbeds make the league very well-positioned for the foreseeable future.

It's definitely a strategic risk though. If Northwestern and Minnesota and Rutgers--and South Carolina and Ole Miss and Vanderbilt-- are making $70M a year in TV money, and they budget 15% of that for basketball, that's $10.5M. I don't expect us to be able to keep up. Our programs won't be strapped, but we'll be operating at an economic disadvantages, which hasn't been the case up to now.

Then again, I expected the SEC Network to allow SEC baseball to really compete for talent with the minor leagues. Shrug.

If we continue to have five all-sport power leagues, each with an average of about 14 programs — the Big East will be fine.

But if we eventually see three monster all-sports leagues, each with 24 or so programs, ... that will be the "P3" in men's hoops. At that point, the Big East (even with 16 programs, hypothetically) will be at a disadvantage not only financially but also in terms of visibility/image/perception. In that scenario, "power" in men's hoops likely will be defined the same way we define "power" in football: by resources and "the company with which you keep" — and not by on-court success (as is the case today).

As I've noted in previous posts, sometimes it is simply a "numbers game."

(08-28-2022 06:47 PM)OneSockUp Wrote:  

(08-28-2022 10:52 AM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  What’s going to kill the Big East eventually is that even the bottom tier P2 programs are going to have more money in pocket change than the entire budgets of their basketball programs.

Not a whole they can do IMO.

The bottom tier of the P2 have been out-earning the Big East for decades, but the Big East was seven games over .500 against those leagues last year.

To some of us out here, we look at some of these majors who still don't seem to put much into basketball and wonder what things could be like if they did, even a little. Are they all sleeping giants? Maybe not, but, I wouldn't be surprised by what even a little flexing could do.

It's almost not fair. I think of programs like my own alma mater, Penn State. How that program, as bad and thrifty it has been over the years, and how it has almost made an art out of dodging the other good/great PA programs, but still makes as much money as it does. And there is virtually no pulse for the sport there, as one of its former coaches would criticize the students for not coming out. Yet, look at their schedule...it's usually pretty awful until the conference season. That's some big-time BS right there.

(08-30-2022 08:14 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  To some of us out here, we look at some of these majors who still don't seem to put much into basketball and wonder what things could be like if they did, even a little. Are they all sleeping giants? Maybe not, but, I wouldn't be surprised by what even a little flexing could do.

It's possible.

Tennessee and Auburn have hired some huge name coaches and they came in 1-2 in the SEC last year, a year after Auburn made the Final Four.

Basketball recruiting does tend to be very geographic, though, so I'm not sure how well Ole Miss could ever be on a consistent basis.

(08-30-2022 10:02 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:  

(08-30-2022 08:14 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  To some of us out here, we look at some of these majors who still don't seem to put much into basketball and wonder what things could be like if they did, even a little. Are they all sleeping giants? Maybe not, but, I wouldn't be surprised by what even a little flexing could do.

It's possible.

Tennessee and Auburn have hired some huge name coaches and they came in 1-2 in the SEC last year, a year after Auburn made the Final Four.

Basketball recruiting does tend to be very geographic, though, so I'm not sure how well Ole Miss could ever be on a consistent basis.

Ol obviously Memphis is a big city, not a little SEC college town. But Ole Miss is not that far away from Memphis, and Memphis does okay

(08-30-2022 10:02 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:  

(08-30-2022 08:14 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  To some of us out here, we look at some of these majors who still don't seem to put much into basketball and wonder what things could be like if they did, even a little. Are they all sleeping giants? Maybe not, but, I wouldn't be surprised by what even a little flexing could do.

It's possible.

Tennessee and Auburn have hired some huge name coaches and they came in 1-2 in the SEC last year, a year after Auburn made the Final Four.

Basketball recruiting does tend to be very geographic, though, so I'm not sure how well Ole Miss could ever be on a consistent basis.

Ol obviously Memphis is a big city, not a little SEC college town. But Ole Miss is not that far away from Memphis, and Memphis does okay

(08-28-2022 06:56 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(08-28-2022 06:47 PM)OneSockUp Wrote:  

(08-28-2022 10:52 AM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  What’s going to kill the Big East eventually is that even the bottom tier P2 programs are going to have more money in pocket change than the entire budgets of their basketball programs.

Not a whole they can do IMO.

The bottom tier of the P2 have been out-earning the Big East for decades, but the Big East was seven games over .500 against those leagues last year.

The Big East school's urban locations in recruiting hotbeds make the league very well-positioned for the foreseeable future.

It's definitely a strategic risk though. If Northwestern and Minnesota and Rutgers--and South Carolina and Ole Miss and Vanderbilt-- are making $70M a year in TV money, and they budget 15% of that for basketball, that's $10.5M. I don't expect us to be able to keep up. Our programs won't be strapped, but we'll be operating at an economic disadvantages, which hasn't been the case up to now.

Then again, I expected the SEC Network to allow SEC baseball to really compete for talent with the minor leagues. Shrug.

Basketball salaries tend not to inflate as much because there are things like tepid ticket sales among the P5 that dissuade the ADs and a lot of it ultimately is if you can get the players.

One advantage the BE has is in recruiting in its strong metro footprint and they can easily shell out 4 million for a good basketball coach. I believe the lowest payed men's coach in the BE is Providence at over 2 million per.

What I see them doing in the mid major leagues is setting a floor in which they'll pay a coach say $500k. If he wins bump him up to 1 million. If he goes start the next guy off at 500k and wait to see if he is the real deal.

Some of these P5 jobs don't want to pay either if they can't get the players. Boston College is one of those jobs where they pay 1.5 million to get a respectable staff in but don't go over the top.

(08-30-2022 08:14 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(08-28-2022 06:47 PM)OneSockUp Wrote:  

(08-28-2022 10:52 AM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  What’s going to kill the Big East eventually is that even the bottom tier P2 programs are going to have more money in pocket change than the entire budgets of their basketball programs.

Not a whole they can do IMO.

The bottom tier of the P2 have been out-earning the Big East for decades, but the Big East was seven games over .500 against those leagues last year.

To some of us out here, we look at some of these majors who still don't seem to put much into basketball and wonder what things could be like if they did, even a little. Are they all sleeping giants? Maybe not, but, I wouldn't be surprised by what even a little flexing could do.

It's almost not fair. I think of programs like my own alma mater, Penn State. How that program, as bad and thrifty it has been over the years, and how it has almost made an art out of dodging the other good/great PA programs, but still makes as much money as it does. And there is virtually no pulse for the sport there, as one of its former coaches would criticize the students for not coming out. Yet, look at their schedule...it's usually pretty awful until the conference season. That's some big-time BS right there.

I guess I will absolutely never blame a program to do what's best for its self-interests in terms of scheduling. If PSU doesn't find it of value to play other PA schools in its non-conference slate (whether it's football, basketball or anything else), then that's their prerogative. They are the ones that have the leverage here. It's virtually always the schools that don't have the leverage that continuously complain about the big bad state flagship supposedly being "scared" of playing the in-state underdog school. I know it sounds harsh, but unless such underdog school makes it financially viable for that state flagship and/or show why it's somehow more valuable than playing a different power conference opponent, then they have no leg to stand on here.

PSU's basketball program on-the-court isn't anything to write home about, but they're playing a 20-game Big Ten conference schedule, a Gavitt Games date with a Big East school, an ACC-Big Ten Challenge game, and an exempt tournament that features other P5/Big East schools every year. They're honestly not getting any additional NCAA Tournament committee consideration out of playing any other PA-based school besides Villanova or Pitt, which are also schools in leverage positions that can largely schedule whoever they want. In looking at PSU's schedules for the past few years, they're par for the course for a power conference program in terms of structure, particularly for the leagues like the Big Ten, ACC and Big East that have 20-game conference schedules.

If you want to say that PSU ought to try throwing some of its one-and-done buy game money to some in-state schools like Bucknell or St. Francis, then I can understand that sentiment and say, "Sure, why not?" However, there's no way that any reasonable PSU athletic director is scheduling away games at any in-state school other than Villanova or Pitt (or *maybe* Penn for the Palestra visit).

(08-30-2022 12:14 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-30-2022 08:14 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(08-28-2022 06:47 PM)OneSockUp Wrote:  

(08-28-2022 10:52 AM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  What’s going to kill the Big East eventually is that even the bottom tier P2 programs are going to have more money in pocket change than the entire budgets of their basketball programs.

Not a whole they can do IMO.

The bottom tier of the P2 have been out-earning the Big East for decades, but the Big East was seven games over .500 against those leagues last year.

To some of us out here, we look at some of these majors who still don't seem to put much into basketball and wonder what things could be like if they did, even a little. Are they all sleeping giants? Maybe not, but, I wouldn't be surprised by what even a little flexing could do.

It's almost not fair. I think of programs like my own alma mater, Penn State. How that program, as bad and thrifty it has been over the years, and how it has almost made an art out of dodging the other good/great PA programs, but still makes as much money as it does. And there is virtually no pulse for the sport there, as one of its former coaches would criticize the students for not coming out. Yet, look at their schedule...it's usually pretty awful until the conference season. That's some big-time BS right there.

I guess I will absolutely never blame a program to do what's best for its self-interests in terms of scheduling. If PSU doesn't find it of value to play other PA schools in its non-conference slate (whether it's football, basketball or anything else), then that's their prerogative. They are the ones that have the leverage here. It's virtually always the schools that don't have the leverage that continuously complain about the big bad state flagship supposedly being "scared" of playing the in-state underdog school. I know it sounds harsh, but unless such underdog school makes it financially viable for that state flagship and/or show why it's somehow more valuable than playing a different power conference opponent, then they have no leg to stand on here.

PSU's basketball program on-the-court isn't anything to write home about, but they're playing a 20-game Big Ten conference schedule, a Gavitt Games date with a Big East school, an ACC-Big Ten Challenge game, and an exempt tournament that features other P5/Big East schools every year. They're honestly not getting any additional NCAA Tournament committee consideration out of playing any other PA-based school besides Villanova or Pitt, which are also schools in leverage positions that can largely schedule whoever they want. In looking at PSU's schedules for the past few years, they're par for the course for a power conference program in terms of structure, particularly for the leagues like the Big Ten, ACC and Big East that have 20-game conference schedules.

If you want to say that PSU ought to try throwing some of its one-and-done buy game money to some in-state schools like Bucknell or St. Francis, then I can understand that sentiment and say, "Sure, why not?" However, there's no way that any reasonable PSU athletic director is scheduling away games at any in-state school other than Villanova or Pitt (or *maybe* Penn for the Palestra visit).

The flip side of that is, I don't think anyone connected to Villanova or Pitt or Temple or even St Joes is bemoaning the lack of Penn State games on their schedule.

(08-28-2022 10:52 AM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  What’s going to kill the Big East eventually is that even the bottom tier P2 programs are going to have more money in pocket change than the entire budgets of their basketball programs.

Not a whole they can do IMO.

Most of that money will go towards football expenses