(06-23-2021 06:31 AM)OscarWildeCat Wrote:  FCS is the most disjointed division in college football. There’s little or no uniformity. Some conferences offer scholarships, others don’t. Some participate in the playoffs, others don’t. Some regularly play OOC games against FCS peers, others rarely venture outside of their own conference.

Not only do this disconnectedness make make rankings a challenge, it it diminishes the overall quality of playoffs, which regularly match non scholarship and scholarship opponents in the first round and leaves out what arguably might be better teams from non participating conferences.

If there is one thing I’ve noticed about this board it’s that there is no shortage of experts with answers for needed reforms in college athletics. So, ok, football experts, what should be done to strengthen FCS?

My one thought is to incentivize schools from conferences that don’t participate in the playoffs to at least regularly schedule OOC games against FCS schools from participating conferences. I’m looking at you Ivy and SWAC.

To this point, the Pioneer League is the only non scholarship league in the playoffs. I don't know if one matchup per season counts as "regularly."

(06-23-2021 10:35 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 10:27 AM)solohawks Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 10:18 AM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 07:40 AM)solohawks Wrote:  What is the goal of FCS?

FCS was created to keep a bunch of Division I schools out of FBS.

I imagine this was originally about TV money, or something, although I've never been sure.

from what I've learned from ArkStfan, it was created with a bunch of false promises to keep smaller schools at a different level in order to attempt to keep the bigger schools aligned and satisfied under the NCAA football TV deal.

When the NCAA lost the 1984 Supreme Court case and conferences began taking greater control and maximizing their revenue, the goals for which 1AA was created were no longer needed.

Well, if someone waived a wand tomorrow and merged all the Division I schools into one football division, you'd see about 60 football teams up and disappear, so there's that. I don't think it's accurate to look at FCS as something foisted upon the schools there and only these darn NCAA bylaws are keeping them from taking the college football world by storm.

99% of schools in the FCS are there because they have no business competing (or even "competing" in the UMass/ULM sense) against Alabama or Clemson.

Perhaps. Or, if allowed, you may see what you have now with a wide variety within the division like you do with NCAA basketball.
There was a big fear of that happening in football due to the TV money issue. That SC case erased that fear as conferences could maximize their own revenues without smaller schools taking a chunk of the pie

In 1982, FCS status was foisted on schools out of fear and protectionism. Its impossible to tell what would have happened to some of those schools and conferences who were forcibly reclassified or left with no option to reclassify because the NCAA took away their conference.

But the way I see it, for the conferences that actually try in FCS: including Big Sky, Southland, MVC, CAA, and SoCon, they would be much better off if they were classified as FBS and of the same stature as the Sunbelt, MAC, and CUSA.

(06-23-2021 10:34 AM)solohawks Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 10:30 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 10:15 AM)solohawks Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 10:06 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  I also don't see how it cheapens the experience of the top teams playing in the playoffs for SWAC/MEAC/Ivy schools to not participate.

Does it make a NDSU/SDSU semifinal worse that Harvard or Yale didn't participate in the playoffs? Does the Celebration Bowl mean that JMU vs. Sam Houston is a farce? Does the mere existence of Presbyterian or Stetson or Dayton mean that Northern Iowa or Montana fans have a worse experience at a game not involving those teams?

I would surmise the problem amongst FCS aficionados is that the lack of consistency cheapens the brand.

How good are the FCS playoffs if 3 of the conferences dont even want to participate?

How good is FCS as a whole if you have X number of schools who dont even fully fund the program or even offer scholarships at all?

One could argue the gap between JMU/NDSU and Davidson/Dayton is larger than the gap between Alabama and ULM. At least the gap between Alabama and ULM, in part, can be partially explained by the current conference structural advantage that exists in FBS.

In FCS, some programs really try and others put in the bare minimum due to tradition or some other reason.

I guess my answer is, "so what?" If I'm sitting there on a Saturday afternoon, watching Maine host like William and Mary or New Hampshire, what the heck do I care if Dayton is playing Davidson? Even if we are talking about the FCS "brand," the only attention FCS gets outside of schools that are in the FCS are 1.) when an FCS school beats an FBS school, or puts a scare in a P5 school, or 2.) the playoffs on ESPN (or the Celebration Bowl). Those moments are so fleeting that there isn't time for some deep discussion of the University of San Diego's finances vis a vis NDSU.

I don't think there's any value to a discussion of "How good is the FCS?" or anything. My team plays in the FCS and I couldn't care less. And I doubt anyone outside this board cares at all.

If you're the CAA or SoCon trying to talk to executives about getting a media contract, they are going to compare you to the Pioneer and NEC instead of CUSA and Sunbelt, even though the level of play in the CAA or SoCon may be closer to CUSA/Sunbelt.

Its not fair, but being associated in the same classification with conferences who are not trying hurts your brand.

I disagree. The "media executives" don't care about how good you play, they care about how many people want to watch your games. Frankly, for every conference below the Mountain West, the answer is "not very many."

Sure, it'd be nice if the CAA got the $100,000 per school payout that the Sun Belt/CUSA schools get, but that's not life changing money for anyone. And I don't think it's affected by the NEC's existence.

(06-23-2021 10:44 AM)solohawks Wrote:  But the way I see it, for the conferences that actually try in FCS: including Big Sky, Southland, MVC, CAA, and SoCon, they would be much better off if they were classified as FBS and of the same stature as the Sunbelt, MAC, and CUSA.

Better off how? What would we be playing for? The opportunity to squeak out 6-6 and play in some modern version of the defunct Knute Rockne Bowl in Bridgeport, Connecticut?

(06-23-2021 10:47 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 10:34 AM)solohawks Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 10:30 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 10:15 AM)solohawks Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 10:06 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  I also don't see how it cheapens the experience of the top teams playing in the playoffs for SWAC/MEAC/Ivy schools to not participate.

Does it make a NDSU/SDSU semifinal worse that Harvard or Yale didn't participate in the playoffs? Does the Celebration Bowl mean that JMU vs. Sam Houston is a farce? Does the mere existence of Presbyterian or Stetson or Dayton mean that Northern Iowa or Montana fans have a worse experience at a game not involving those teams?

I would surmise the problem amongst FCS aficionados is that the lack of consistency cheapens the brand.

How good are the FCS playoffs if 3 of the conferences dont even want to participate?

How good is FCS as a whole if you have X number of schools who dont even fully fund the program or even offer scholarships at all?

One could argue the gap between JMU/NDSU and Davidson/Dayton is larger than the gap between Alabama and ULM. At least the gap between Alabama and ULM, in part, can be partially explained by the current conference structural advantage that exists in FBS.

In FCS, some programs really try and others put in the bare minimum due to tradition or some other reason.

I guess my answer is, "so what?" If I'm sitting there on a Saturday afternoon, watching Maine host like William and Mary or New Hampshire, what the heck do I care if Dayton is playing Davidson? Even if we are talking about the FCS "brand," the only attention FCS gets outside of schools that are in the FCS are 1.) when an FCS school beats an FBS school, or puts a scare in a P5 school, or 2.) the playoffs on ESPN (or the Celebration Bowl). Those moments are so fleeting that there isn't time for some deep discussion of the University of San Diego's finances vis a vis NDSU.

I don't think there's any value to a discussion of "How good is the FCS?" or anything. My team plays in the FCS and I couldn't care less. And I doubt anyone outside this board cares at all.

If you're the CAA or SoCon trying to talk to executives about getting a media contract, they are going to compare you to the Pioneer and NEC instead of CUSA and Sunbelt, even though the level of play in the CAA or SoCon may be closer to CUSA/Sunbelt.

Its not fair, but being associated in the same classification with conferences who are not trying hurts your brand.

I disagree. The "media executives" don't care about how good you play, they care about how many people want to watch your games. Frankly, for every conference below the Mountain West, the answer is "not very many."

Sure, it'd be nice if the CAA got the $100,000 per school payout that the Sun Belt/CUSA schools get, but that's not life changing money for anyone. And I don't think it's affected by the NEC's existence.

I disagree.

The $100,000 payout you cited is the old Sunbelt payout. ESPN reportedly pays the MAC between $830,000 and $850,000 per school, on their newest thirteen-year deal. I couldn't find terms of the newest Sunbelt deal but it is likely at our around that amount as the MAC's previous contract was also about $100,000 per school. It is reasonable to assume the Sunbelt and MAC would be paid about the same from ESPN.

Premier FCS schools are handicapped because they hit a glass ceiling. NDSU games would draw more than ULM games, because NDSU is 1AA they cannot maximize that potential.

Fair or not 1AA is considered "minor league" in part because so many schools half ass their programs.

If every program tried as hard as JMU and NDSU, FCS would have more cache and a greater public perception. It would never be FBS but it would have more opportunity to grow and maximize revenues.

(06-23-2021 10:52 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 10:44 AM)solohawks Wrote:  But the way I see it, for the conferences that actually try in FCS: including Big Sky, Southland, MVC, CAA, and SoCon, they would be much better off if they were classified as FBS and of the same stature as the Sunbelt, MAC, and CUSA.

Better off how? What would we be playing for? The opportunity to squeak out 6-6 and play in some modern version of the defunct Knute Rockne Bowl in Bridgeport, Connecticut?

That bowl would likely draw more TV audience and money than any FCS playoff game outside of possibly the championship.

For the hardcore fans of the schools FCS can be great. But its not going to make you much if any money and schools that do find success in FCS will leave once they are able to, thus the watering down effect occurs.

(06-23-2021 10:59 AM)solohawks Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 10:52 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 10:44 AM)solohawks Wrote:  But the way I see it, for the conferences that actually try in FCS: including Big Sky, Southland, MVC, CAA, and SoCon, they would be much better off if they were classified as FBS and of the same stature as the Sunbelt, MAC, and CUSA.

Better off how? What would we be playing for? The opportunity to squeak out 6-6 and play in some modern version of the defunct Knute Rockne Bowl in Bridgeport, Connecticut?

That bowl would likely draw more TV audience and money than any FCS playoff game outside of possibly the championship.

For the hardcore fans of the schools FCS can be great. But its not going to make you much if any money and schools that do find success in FCS will leave once they are able to, thus the watering down effect occurs.

The Sun Belt and CUSA get about $400,000-$500,000 in their TV deals, per school, less expenses of production: https://247sports.com/college/arkansas-s...116260412/

I guess this is the fundamental difference between our arguments: I don't care how much TV audience my school's games bring in for ESPN. I don't care how much advertising revenue ESPN would make off a game involving my team. I really don't care how much money my school gets from a conference TV contract payout.

I want to be able to watch my school compete against its peers, and I want it to do moderately to fairly well in those games. The FCS is the best vehicle to do that if Maine is going to play football. Forcing Maine up to FBS would make Maine a tiny fish in a large pond, and the football team would probably fare as well as the basketball program (very, very poorly). Even if there is more money in the CAA/MVFC/SoCon/Big Sky being FBS, the expenses to try to win games at that level would swallow any gain whole. Marginally, it would be a loss. And, again, I don't care how much money is sitting in Maine's bank account (which is good, because the answer is likely "not much"). I want to be able to watch. And I want Maine to do well against New Hampshire and its other peers.

(06-23-2021 09:08 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  50% of schools in the FBS will wake up on the first day of the next season with a zero percent chance of going to the playoff and winning a national title despite their fervent desire to do so, and its the FCS that is a mess because three of thirteen conferences are all set with participating in the playoffs?

North Dakota St has won 8 of the last 10 titles. Lots or parity.

(06-23-2021 07:28 AM)Gemofthehills Wrote:  FCS should go away. Allow schools to either be D1 FBS or DII in football or DI and no football. Or play each sport where you want.

With the recent SCOTUS anti trust ruling it would appear the NCAA would have a hard time stopping a school or conference from moving to any level they desired.

Why?

FCS is great for the schools that are DI but still want football and aren't trying to pretend they compete with Alabama.

(06-23-2021 08:49 AM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  FCS is a combo of DI through DIII. When you have three conferences (Ivy, SWAC, MEAC) that don't send their champ to the playoffs, four conferences (Pioneer, NEC, Patriot, Ivy) with less than the full amount of scholarships, and a second championship inside the division you can expect a hot mess.

Almost 1/3 or so of the I-aa/FCS champions since its beginning have moved to FBS. Those dozen or so schools who actually have the ability to win a championship don't seem to care the playing field has reduced to redheaded step children.


Edit: However I still watch. Because football.

No - FCS is still DI. And it isn't a mess. And FCS produces a True National Championship - something App St will never play for again.

(06-23-2021 11:20 AM)PicksUp Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 09:08 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  50% of schools in the FBS will wake up on the first day of the next season with a zero percent chance of going to the playoff and winning a national title despite their fervent desire to do so, and its the FCS that is a mess because three of thirteen conferences are all set with participating in the playoffs?

North Dakota St has won 8 of the last 10 titles. Lots or parity.

And if you are Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State or LSU, all you have to do is win a few games and you get invited to a fake playoff.

(06-23-2021 11:36 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 08:49 AM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  FCS is a combo of DI through DIII. When you have three conferences (Ivy, SWAC, MEAC) that don't send their champ to the playoffs, four conferences (Pioneer, NEC, Patriot, Ivy) with less than the full amount of scholarships, and a second championship inside the division you can expect a hot mess.

Almost 1/3 or so of the I-aa/FCS champions since its beginning have moved to FBS. Those dozen or so schools who actually have the ability to win a championship don't seem to care the playing field has reduced to redheaded step children.


Edit: However I still watch. Because football.

No - FCS is still DI. And it isn't a mess. And FCS produces a True National Championship - something App St will never play for again.

Simmer Donna.

FCS is DI but has active elements of DII (Patriot/NEC) and DIII (Ivy and Pioneer). There's two championships being played for by leagues classified as FCS. Hot. Mess.


App State fans wouldn't have the school move back to that classification for any reason. I was in the stands for the first bowl win and it was more exciting than my time in Chattanooga at both the 2nd or the 3rd FCS championship.

(06-23-2021 11:39 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 11:20 AM)PicksUp Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 09:08 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  50% of schools in the FBS will wake up on the first day of the next season with a zero percent chance of going to the playoff and winning a national title despite their fervent desire to do so, and its the FCS that is a mess because three of thirteen conferences are all set with participating in the playoffs?

North Dakota St has won 8 of the last 10 titles. Lots or parity.

And if you are Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State or LSU, all you have to do is win a few games and you get invited to a fake playoff.

12-13 games is a few? Got it.

My personal take on things—if you’re not offering the full 63 scholarships, your conference should be ineligible for the FCS playoffs.

As for the abstainers, they don’t bother me. Those 3 conferences have different goals, philosophies, and traditions and I’m ok that winning an FCS national championship isn’t part of that.

(06-23-2021 11:44 AM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 11:36 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 08:49 AM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  FCS is a combo of DI through DIII. When you have three conferences (Ivy, SWAC, MEAC) that don't send their champ to the playoffs, four conferences (Pioneer, NEC, Patriot, Ivy) with less than the full amount of scholarships, and a second championship inside the division you can expect a hot mess.

Almost 1/3 or so of the I-aa/FCS champions since its beginning have moved to FBS. Those dozen or so schools who actually have the ability to win a championship don't seem to care the playing field has reduced to redheaded step children.


Edit: However I still watch. Because football.

No - FCS is still DI. And it isn't a mess. And FCS produces a True National Championship - something App St will never play for again.

Simmer Donna.

FCS is DI but has active elements of DII (Patriot/NEC) and DIII (Ivy and Pioneer). There's two championships being played for by leagues classified as FCS. Hot. Mess.


App State fans wouldn't have the school move back to that classification for any reason. I was in the stands for the first bowl win and it was more exciting than my time in Chattanooga at both the 2nd or the 3rd FCS championship.

Nothing DII about Patriot or NEC. Ivy doesn't offer scholarships in any sport - should all their DI championships be voided?

Pioneer - well, not going to let a few schools and one bid mean much. I am just happy they offer football.

FCS offers what you dream about - guaranteed access to the playoffs

(06-23-2021 11:53 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  My personal take on things—if you’re not offering the full 63 scholarships, your conference should be ineligible for the FCS playoffs.

As for the abstainers, they don’t bother me. Those 3 conferences have different goals, philosophies, and traditions and I’m ok that winning an FCS national championship isn’t part of that.

So you would exclude the Pioneer. Whoop-de-doo.

(06-23-2021 07:28 AM)Gemofthehills Wrote:  FCS should go away. Allow schools to either be D1 FBS or DII in football or DI and no football. Or play each sport where you want.

With the recent SCOTUS anti trust ruling it would appear the NCAA would have a hard time stopping a school or conference from moving to any level they desired.

On your last point, unlikely. When it comes to school classification, the courts would apply a Rule of Reason analysis, which asks whether the restraint (requirements for being in divisions) is reasonable.

The true test of legality is whether the restraint imposed is such as merely regulates and perhaps thereby promotes competition or whether it is such as may suppress or even destroy competition. - Chicago Bd. of Trade v. US

The recent case involves educational-related expenses, and I don't think the Court even made it to the Rule of Reason analysis because the limitation was basically a per se restraint. The division classifications would surely make it to a Rule of Reason analysis and be found reasonable to group similar institutions together and to require schools to compete on level playing fields (i.e., not having FBS/D1 MBB make money to fund your D-3 operations in all other sports).

The issue the NCAA would run into is that they don't actually enforce the standards for joining D1, especially FBS. We've seen that repeatedly with the attendance requirement and then with the waiver of the conference requirement for Liberty. The requirement to have a conference membership might not survive the Rule of Reason analysis though, which is why they waived it for Liberty. Given that there are several independents, there's not much defense of not allowing other schools to move up as independents.

That said, I can certainly see Kavanaugh going off and saying schools should be able to compete at whatever level they want. And frankly, that will be the death of the NCAA. Once we start getting schools moving their MBB programs up to D1 just to get part of the NCAA Tourney Money, the P5 will be gone. They're not going to split that money with another half-dozen or more conferences that are D2/D3 schools masquerading at D1.

(06-23-2021 11:44 AM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 11:36 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 08:49 AM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  FCS is a combo of DI through DIII. When you have three conferences (Ivy, SWAC, MEAC) that don't send their champ to the playoffs, four conferences (Pioneer, NEC, Patriot, Ivy) with less than the full amount of scholarships, and a second championship inside the division you can expect a hot mess.

Almost 1/3 or so of the I-aa/FCS champions since its beginning have moved to FBS. Those dozen or so schools who actually have the ability to win a championship don't seem to care the playing field has reduced to redheaded step children.


Edit: However I still watch. Because football.

No - FCS is still DI. And it isn't a mess. And FCS produces a True National Championship - something App St will never play for again.

Simmer Donna.

FCS is DI but has active elements of DII (Patriot/NEC) and DIII (Ivy and Pioneer). There's two championships being played for by leagues classified as FCS. Hot. Mess.


App State fans wouldn't have the school move back to that classification for any reason. I was in the stands for the first bowl win and it was more exciting than my time in Chattanooga at both the 2nd or the 3rd FCS championship.

The Patriot league allows up to 60 scholarships, the FCS limit is 63. So the schools are all below the max number, but it's far closer to a typical FCS offering than D2 (which has a limit of 36).

(06-23-2021 12:23 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Nothing DII about Patriot or NEC. Ivy doesn't offer scholarships in any sport - should all their DI championships be voided?

Pioneer - well, not going to let a few schools and one bid mean much. I am just happy they offer football.

FCS offers what you dream about - guaranteed access to the playoffs

DII has a max of 36 scholarships for Football programs.

NEC limits it to 40 scholarships. Patriot is allowed up to 60 but no team fully funds to that.

(06-23-2021 12:32 PM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  

(06-23-2021 12:23 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Nothing DII about Patriot or NEC. Ivy doesn't offer scholarships in any sport - should all their DI championships be voided?

Pioneer - well, not going to let a few schools and one bid mean much. I am just happy they offer football.

FCS offers what you dream about - guaranteed access to the playoffs

DII has a max of 36 scholarships for Football programs.

NEC limits it to 40 scholarships. Patriot is allowed up to 60 but no team fully funds to that.

Some Patriot league schools have started playing FBS games, in order for the game to count for bowl eligibility for the FBS team the PL school has to offer a certain number of scholarships (I don't recall the exact number).

In 2019 the PL had 5 of those games (HC x2, Bucknell, Colgate, and Fordham all played FBS schools), I don't know that all of those schools funded 60 scholarships, but they have to fund a lot of them.