Thanks for the responses and compliments. Responding to all would be tough.

An amendment to the original, the play with the * looks like it was run out of Horns looking back. The tough part when they ran Horns was that one of the wings didn't always fully commit to the corner and would initiate his cut from wing spot of the three. But that's what I like about Horns. You can run multiple things from it.

(11-30-2020 06:35 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  I don't agree with all of it...But man great job.

Excellent analysis.

Oh of course. Different perspectives are expected.

(11-30-2020 08:00 PM)tigerjamesc Wrote:  What a great job and we appreciate the time put in. I have no doubt we have some offensive sets, but either the guys don’t know them well enough (too complicated?) or they don’t believe in them. Too much hesitation and 1 on one play.

My earlier thoughts were that they didn't know them well enough. After looking at the plays closer, it feels like they don't understand the rules of the offense and what those rules accomplish. The players make it harder on themselves as long as they don't understand them.

(12-01-2020 01:00 AM)rolexjames Wrote:  Good job looking at the details. Maybe you can join the staff for analytic purposes.

Nah, they don't need me. But if I was younger and healthier I would have liked to try to get involved with stuff like this even if it wasn't on a collegiate level. Then just work my way up.

(12-01-2020 08:33 AM)Hoots Wrote:  Holy mackerel! Interesting analysis, thank you. I hope the coaching staff puts in half the time it must have taken to do that.

I'm sure they are putting in way more time than I did.

(12-01-2020 01:35 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(12-01-2020 01:31 PM)tkgrrett Wrote:  

(12-01-2020 01:02 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  An excellent assessment. Very well done, Alanda.

I know very little about this, but here is what I see too much of so far and they involve basic fundamentals:

* minimal movement without the ball

* dribblers dribbling into defense

* excessive dribbling

* 3-point shooters either not following their shot or not getting back on D

And even when they are moving, its not movement with "purpose". No full speed cuts at all, might as well be walk through speed

True...But would you cut hard is you knew the guy wasn't going to pass it...

While unfortunately they may think that way, kinda like what tk said they do need to understand that movement with purpose makes scoring opportunities easier.

(12-01-2020 01:50 PM)jgardne Wrote:  I think it's really generous calling some of this offense "motion." Yes, guys are not just standing in one place but if you go to a YMCA and put 5 random guys on a court who've played basketball they will all instinctively start moving around some and changing position. Nobody will just stand still until they get the ball. They will also occasionally set picks and try to cut without having a structured offense in place. Before I'd call something an offense I'd say there need to be at least 3 somewhat defined actions that are designed to generate a specific opening.

We do run a horns set occasionally. The weave is clearly a thing but without other off-ball stuff that's not an offense.

A pick and roll isn't an offense unless accompanied by some off ball action, like pick and roll or pick and pop the shooter + pick on weak side or some sort of confounding motion.

I took some liberties with labeling motion, yes. Some of it was based on the hand signal given before the play since the players themselves didn't do as much. To me just because the players do not run it properly does not in turn mean the play was not called.

I disagree on how to classify what is an offense. I don't think there is a requirement for a certain amount of actions. I would say iso is an offense even if the other four are standing still. But those that share a similar view to yours could be why some feel we do not run an offense.

(12-01-2020 01:57 PM)gusrob Wrote:  I didn't stress enough in my first post....

THIS IS A QUALITY POST. Great great great converstaion starter. Completed with great work to put together data.

Thanks. Making a conversation starter was my goal with this. That going forward, even if it's just a little bit, we all will pay closer attention.

Less dribble more pass. That starts a lot of other things.

What offense?

We ran ore Horns than I remember. Maybe b/c by then (late 2nd half) I was drained.

(12-01-2020 01:42 PM)gusrob Wrote:  Enjoyed very much! Well done, sir!

I find myself saying a lot of the same things. People seem to be criticizing what we run, but I see issues with how we run every play. I'm hoping coaching helps as the season goes on.

Your breakdown shows a majority of our plays to be Motion offense. Good Motion involves cuts after the pass and screens to free non ball handlers (as well as a good flex offense that I think is incorporated some). Our guys were all studs in HS. None of them understand how to work without the ball. We need some glue guys. We need some people that will do the AA things that create space for scorers. This can be coached, but I think it's more of a recruiting issue. We need to bring in a few gritty, aggressive, fundamental guys.

Our team doesn't seem to have fire. Penny can spark their fire and I think he will. We almost certainly will improve how we run our O. Our defense is ahead of schedule. Hopefully it all comes together.

Really hard to find 4 star talents like AA, Dozier, Dorsey that will only do dirty work. Thing is, I don't know if it was in them to be role guys or if Cal made them do it. Eg, in pickup settings Dorsey was a ball handler who thought he was a guard and actually wanted to play like "Melo" his Baltimore hero. I heard this from him. But on the real court, he was all dirty work. Don't know what Penny promised these guys as recruits so it maybe hard to ask some of them to just be role players.

(12-02-2020 10:03 AM)dwash Wrote:  

(12-01-2020 01:42 PM)gusrob Wrote:  Enjoyed very much! Well done, sir!

I find myself saying a lot of the same things. People seem to be criticizing what we run, but I see issues with how we run every play. I'm hoping coaching helps as the season goes on.

Your breakdown shows a majority of our plays to be Motion offense. Good Motion involves cuts after the pass and screens to free non ball handlers (as well as a good flex offense that I think is incorporated some). Our guys were all studs in HS. None of them understand how to work without the ball. We need some glue guys. We need some people that will do the AA things that create space for scorers. This can be coached, but I think it's more of a recruiting issue. We need to bring in a few gritty, aggressive, fundamental guys.

Our team doesn't seem to have fire. Penny can spark their fire and I think he will. We almost certainly will improve how we run our O. Our defense is ahead of schedule. Hopefully it all comes together.

Really hard to find 4 star talents like AA, Dozier, Dorsey that will only do dirty work. Thing is, I don't know if it was in them to be role guys or if Cal made them do it. Eg, in pickup settings Dorsey was a ball handler who thought he was a guard and actually wanted to play like "Melo" his Baltimore hero. I heard this from him. But on the real court, he was all dirty work. Don't know what Penny promised these guys as recruits so it maybe hard to ask some of them to just be role players.

That 2005 class was an outlier that will warp our perception of reality for as long as we are fans. There will never be another class like that, ever.

(12-02-2020 01:20 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(12-02-2020 10:03 AM)dwash Wrote:  

(12-01-2020 01:42 PM)gusrob Wrote:  Enjoyed very much! Well done, sir!

I find myself saying a lot of the same things. People seem to be criticizing what we run, but I see issues with how we run every play. I'm hoping coaching helps as the season goes on.

Your breakdown shows a majority of our plays to be Motion offense. Good Motion involves cuts after the pass and screens to free non ball handlers (as well as a good flex offense that I think is incorporated some). Our guys were all studs in HS. None of them understand how to work without the ball. We need some glue guys. We need some people that will do the AA things that create space for scorers. This can be coached, but I think it's more of a recruiting issue. We need to bring in a few gritty, aggressive, fundamental guys.

Our team doesn't seem to have fire. Penny can spark their fire and I think he will. We almost certainly will improve how we run our O. Our defense is ahead of schedule. Hopefully it all comes together.

Really hard to find 4 star talents like AA, Dozier, Dorsey that will only do dirty work. Thing is, I don't know if it was in them to be role guys or if Cal made them do it. Eg, in pickup settings Dorsey was a ball handler who thought he was a guard and actually wanted to play like "Melo" his Baltimore hero. I heard this from him. But on the real court, he was all dirty work. Don't know what Penny promised these guys as recruits so it maybe hard to ask some of them to just be role players.

That 2005 class was an outlier that will warp our perception of reality for as long as we are fans. There will never be another class like that, ever.

You're right Stams, but still a good question by dwash. Curious to see adjustments tonight. Do guys get benched after goofy shots? Does our offense have a more cohesive approach? I don't expect many passes or movement as we're so much more talented than Arky St and should score at will. We'll see.

EDIT: P.S. Sat to Wed is a short period to make adjustments. But its a LOOOONG time for a player to be around an angry, disappointed coach.

(12-02-2020 10:03 AM)dwash Wrote:  

(12-01-2020 01:42 PM)gusrob Wrote:  Enjoyed very much! Well done, sir!

I find myself saying a lot of the same things. People seem to be criticizing what we run, but I see issues with how we run every play. I'm hoping coaching helps as the season goes on.

Your breakdown shows a majority of our plays to be Motion offense. Good Motion involves cuts after the pass and screens to free non ball handlers (as well as a good flex offense that I think is incorporated some). Our guys were all studs in HS. None of them understand how to work without the ball. We need some glue guys. We need some people that will do the AA things that create space for scorers. This can be coached, but I think it's more of a recruiting issue. We need to bring in a few gritty, aggressive, fundamental guys.

Our team doesn't seem to have fire. Penny can spark their fire and I think he will. We almost certainly will improve how we run our O. Our defense is ahead of schedule. Hopefully it all comes together.

Really hard to find 4 star talents like AA, Dozier, Dorsey that will only do dirty work. Thing is, I don't know if it was in them to be role guys or if Cal made them do it. Eg, in pickup settings Dorsey was a ball handler who thought he was a guard and actually wanted to play like "Melo" his Baltimore hero. I heard this from him. But on the real court, he was all dirty work. Don't know what Penny promised these guys as recruits so it maybe hard to ask some of them to just be role players.

This is a gr8 point, as eluded to previously....I feel that our main problem is our guys feeling pressured to prove that they embody NBA game from the previous successes of Wise;Precious and 4K Peso......Coupled with the fact that Alo is NOT a high enough caliber performer to help these elite players become EVEN MORE elite....They may look amazing in practice when Coach Penny runs the drills....But a MAJOR dropoff when the keys are handed to Alo

(12-02-2020 01:20 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(12-02-2020 10:03 AM)dwash Wrote:  

(12-01-2020 01:42 PM)gusrob Wrote:  Enjoyed very much! Well done, sir!

I find myself saying a lot of the same things. People seem to be criticizing what we run, but I see issues with how we run every play. I'm hoping coaching helps as the season goes on.

Your breakdown shows a majority of our plays to be Motion offense. Good Motion involves cuts after the pass and screens to free non ball handlers (as well as a good flex offense that I think is incorporated some). Our guys were all studs in HS. None of them understand how to work without the ball. We need some glue guys. We need some people that will do the AA things that create space for scorers. This can be coached, but I think it's more of a recruiting issue. We need to bring in a few gritty, aggressive, fundamental guys.

Our team doesn't seem to have fire. Penny can spark their fire and I think he will. We almost certainly will improve how we run our O. Our defense is ahead of schedule. Hopefully it all comes together.

Really hard to find 4 star talents like AA, Dozier, Dorsey that will only do dirty work. Thing is, I don't know if it was in them to be role guys or if Cal made them do it. Eg, in pickup settings Dorsey was a ball handler who thought he was a guard and actually wanted to play like "Melo" his Baltimore hero. I heard this from him. But on the real court, he was all dirty work. Don't know what Penny promised these guys as recruits so it maybe hard to ask some of them to just be role players.

That 2005 class was an outlier that will warp our perception of reality for as long as we are fans. There will never be another class like that, ever.

Can't argue against it.

The best we've seen Penny's offense work was when Jeremiah was running point. Penny has yet to recruit that dynamic point guard. He's missed out on Skyy Clark who would have taken things to another level.

(12-03-2020 11:54 AM)rolexjames Wrote:  The best we've seen Penny's offense work was when Jeremiah was running point. Penny has yet to recruit that dynamic point guard. He's missed out on Skyy Clark who would have taken things to another level.

I mentioned in the game thread that the Nembhard kid that ended up picking Gonzaga would have been perfect. We would have had all the pieces in place.

I just want to watch us play good basketball ... really !!! You know ... inside out, drive the ball then throw it to the wing or post for a slam or layup. Motion, motion, motion !!! Control, control, control !!! This " we'll be the fastest offense in the country" is a disaster. If I see us clear out for the dribbler one more time I'll scream !!! What happened to high, low ... Have we run that yet this season ??? And letting our center chase his man out past the key or 3 is another disaster. Why have a shot blocker when he's chasing a man out to the perimeter !!!
And watching a droop shouldered HC or players ... It's un-f'n-real. Show us some confidence damnit !!!
WHAT HAPPENED TO GOOD BASKETBALL !!!

I mentioned in another thread that our guys are still at best (emphasis on at best) going through one rotation on a set. We're going to still struggle with better teams if the guys don't get better with that. I had been looking at other teams running a 4-out, 1-in offense and found this video on Villanova if you're also interested in watching stuff like this. Makes you wonder how good our guys would be if they did these things at least half the time. The video seems to be a combination of Jay Wright's first championship season and the following season.

(12-07-2020 12:50 PM)steves Wrote:  What happened to high, low ... Have we run that yet this season ???

From what I recall no. But if it did happen it would have been recently and extremely sparse. I'm talking once or twice in a game.

(12-03-2020 11:54 AM)rolexjames Wrote:  The best we've seen Penny's offense work was when Jeremiah was running point. Penny has yet to recruit that dynamic point guard. He's missed out on Skyy Clark who would have taken things to another level.

I wouldn't call what we ran when Martin was here an offense either.

(12-10-2020 06:00 PM)Alanda Wrote:  I mentioned in another thread that our guys are still at best (emphasis on at best) going through one rotation on a set. We're going to still struggle with better teams if the guys don't get better with that. I had been looking at other teams running a 4-out, 1-in offense and found this video on Villanova if you're also interested in watching stuff like this. Makes you wonder how good our guys would be if they did these things at least half the time. The video seems to be a combination of Jay Wright's first championship season and the following season.

(12-07-2020 12:50 PM)steves Wrote:  What happened to high, low ... Have we run that yet this season ???

From what I recall no. But if it did happen it would have been recently and extremely sparse. I'm talking once or twice in a game.

The thing most noticeable to me is how their point guards are so easily able to break the press and get into the lane. IF we had one player that could do that, it would change everything. I just don't see Villanova being the model that we can realistically follow.

When I look at VCU, that is how we should be playing. They don't have a dominant point guard. What they have are a lot of guards who are decent but not great ball handlers, and a lot of movement with and without the ball. We have the personnel to do it, but we have to completely change the way we play.

What is surprising about our team defense is that we play very well on the ball with a lot of players that aren't very athletic. Baugh is. I would say that DJ, Cisse, and maybe Boogie are. Nolley, LQ, Thomas, Jayden and Malcolm are not; with Malcolm's case being due to his injuries.

We don't have an identity right now because we don't have someone that can run the show and we are neither long, nor athletic. Lomax and LQ are the only ballhandlers. Lomax is tiny and limited offensively, and LQ isn't athletic.

We dribble too much.

(12-10-2020 06:58 PM)uskjtc02 Wrote:  We dribble too much.

Martin did for sure, but he was a weapon. We have a lot of half court sets where either Boogie or Baugh are passing the ball without a purpose on the perimeter. We have a lot of half court sets where Lomax dribbles the ball into the lane without a purpose. We need better movement off of the ball. We have a lot of players that aren't. Jayden and Dandridge always make cuts at full speed, are always active. DJ seems to have a good knack for finding open spots from outside when our players drive.

It was extremely disappointing to have Baugh miss the MVS game. We needed him to have a game against an easy opponent for him to start figuring it out.

(12-10-2020 06:00 PM)Alanda Wrote:  I mentioned in another thread that our guys are still at best (emphasis on at best) going through one rotation on a set. We're going to still struggle with better teams if the guys don't get better with that. I had been looking at other teams running a 4-out, 1-in offense and found this video on Villanova if you're also interested in watching stuff like this. Makes you wonder how good our guys would be if they did these things at least half the time. The video seems to be a combination of Jay Wright's first championship season and the following season.

(12-07-2020 12:50 PM)steves Wrote:  What happened to high, low ... Have we run that yet this season ???

From what I recall no. But if it did happen it would have been recently and extremely sparse. I'm talking once or twice in a game.

NICE ....Thanks for posting this....One thing that our team does take from Jay Wrights philosophies....."You're never going to be more open, than when you first catch the ball"

(12-10-2020 06:00 PM)Alanda Wrote:  I mentioned in another thread that our guys are still at best (emphasis on at best) going through one rotation on a set. We're going to still struggle with better teams if the guys don't get better with that. I had been looking at other teams running a 4-out, 1-in offense and found this video on Villanova if you're also interested in watching stuff like this. Makes you wonder how good our guys would be if they did these things at least half the time. The video seems to be a combination of Jay Wright's first championship season and the following season.

(12-07-2020 12:50 PM)steves Wrote:  What happened to high, low ... Have we run that yet this season ???

From what I recall no. But if it did happen it would have been recently and extremely sparse. I'm talking once or twice in a game.

The main difference I see is how their players are constantly moving. They are rotating the spaces constantly. When a player drives, another player (sometimes 2) are cutting to the basket also to give the driver someone to dump the ball off to.

(12-10-2020 06:54 PM)Stammers Wrote:  The thing most noticeable to me is how their point guards are so easily able to break the press and get into the lane. IF we had one player that could do that, it would change everything. I just don't see Villanova being the model that we can realistically follow.

When I look at VCU, that is how we should be playing. They don't have a dominant point guard. What they have are a lot of guards who are decent but not great ball handlers, and a lot of movement with and without the ball. We have the personnel to do it, but we have to completely change the way we play.

What is surprising about our team defense is that we play very well on the ball with a lot of players that aren't very athletic. Baugh is. I would say that DJ, Cisse, and maybe Boogie are. Nolley, LQ, Thomas, Jayden and Malcolm are not; with Malcolm's case being due to his injuries.

We don't have an identity right now because we don't have someone that can run the show and we are neither long, nor athletic. Lomax and LQ are the only ballhandlers. Lomax is tiny and limited offensively, and LQ isn't athletic.

One of the main reasons I went with that video was that it focused more on how things were run in that type of motion instead of being a full game where we had to skip to individual possessions. It doesn't even have to be Villanova, just anyone who is properly moving without the ball like you said would or moving the ball would look better than what we do. You mentioned VCU so I'm looking back at the VCU vs WVU game and they were running motion also in some possessions. And so far in the beginning when they didn't follow the proper rules, they looked like we do.

I think our guys do a decent job of getting into the lane. They just seem to be poor with finishing. IMO Lomax would get far fewer complaints if he was a better finisher. He gets into the lane for layups and pullups like I've seen other guys in motion videos, but he struggles knocking down the same shots. But I think the same can be said about the others as well. I would like to see them run more of their other sets.

You mention defense and athleticism or lack thereof, I think that shows they are better at following their defensive rules than their offensive rules. I don't know if that is due to complexity, lack of athleticism, or what, but they accomplish things on defense easier than they do on offense.

(12-10-2020 07:10 PM)thagr82008 Wrote:  NICE ....Thanks for posting this....One thing that our team does take from Jay Wrights philosophies....."You're never going to be more open, than when you first catch the ball"

Haha. NGL, that part of the video crossed my mind with our team as well.