The privatization of the postal service is an interesting topic, but should be its own thread. The more immediate threat and topic here is whether the administration is actively working to sabotage the capacity of the postal service to handle the workload associated with the mail-in voting that will be needed during this pandemic, because Democrats tend to vote 3x more often by mail than Republicans.

Relevant to that, today:

Quote:US Postmaster General Louis DeJoy has announced he is suspending cost-cutting operational changes until after the November elections, after days of widespread outcry and claims Donald Trump was deliberately slowing down the mail to help his re-election effort.

In a statement, DeJoy announced he was suspending the changes to “avoid even the appearance of any impact on election mail”.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020...y-election

I would expect there to be pushback to also reverse the damages that have already been done (reported 600+ sorting machines that have been decommissioned).

(08-18-2020 01:55 PM)At Ease Wrote:  The privatization of the postal service is an interesting topic, but should be its own thread. The more immediate threat and topic here is whether the administration is actively working to sabotage the capacity of the postal service to handle the workload associated with the mail-in voting that will be needed during this pandemic, because Democrats tend to vote 3x more often by mail than Republicans.

Relevant to that, today:

Quote:US Postmaster General Louis DeJoy has announced he is suspending cost-cutting operational changes until after the November elections, after days of widespread outcry and claims Donald Trump was deliberately slowing down the mail to help his re-election effort.

In a statement, DeJoy announced he was suspending the changes to “avoid even the appearance of any impact on election mail”.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020...y-election

I would expect there to be pushback to also reverse the damages that have already been done (reported 600+ sorting machines that have been decommissioned).

Seems obvious and was addressed in the first few responses to this thread.

Reforming of the USPS, including the elimination of sorting machines in light of a (from memory, may be off) 30% drop in volume makes a lot of sense to people on both sides of the aisle.

I generally skip over muddled posts.

You seem to be arguing that these machines were removed because the mail volume has gone down and they were no longer needed.

If that were the case you would expect mail service would not be affected by superfluous equipment. However, there are multiple reports that mail service has slowed significantly. And if that were the case you would expect evidence justifying this decision to be presented, in the form of how equivalent #'s of mail could be handled without these machines, or how much $$ throwing away perfectly functioning equipment is saving the postal service, to quell the concerns about election tampering. I haven't seen anything to that accord, have you?

(08-18-2020 03:44 PM)At Ease Wrote:  I generally skip over muddled posts.

You seem to be arguing that these machines were removed because the mail volume has gone down and they were no longer needed.

If that were the case you would expect mail service would not be affected by superfluous equipment. However, there are multiple reports that mail service has slowed significantly. And if that were the case you would expect evidence justifying this decision to be presented, in the form of how equivalent #'s of mail could be handled without these machines, or how much $$ throwing away perfectly functioning equipment is saving the postal service, to quell the concerns about election tampering. I haven't seen anything to that accord, have you?

I'm sorry. Those two sentences look pretty clear to me.

Perhaps you can present some evidence of these machines simply being throw away.
Perhaps you can provide evidence of these claims of slow mail from someone other than the President of the Postal Workers Union.
I know it's a big ask, but perhaps you can provide some actual data to support the claim?

Evidence WAS presented to justify the reduction in equipment, most notably the massive fall in volume... and the flat revenues while other similar companies are rising.

Actually, you just presented evidence to quell concerns about election tampering... that these apparent cost-reduction efforts were suspended over concerns about the appearance.

How about this?
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/16/politics/...index.html

Quote:Internal USPS planning documents obtained by CNN indicate nearly 95% of the mail sorting machines that had been set for removal during the last few months were already scheduled to be taken out of service by now.

There is clear evidence that these reductions were planned before this was an issue.
There is clear evidence that the USPS has underperformed its competition.
There is clear evidence that delivery volumes are down that would justify a cut in equipment.

(08-18-2020 05:22 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(08-18-2020 03:44 PM)At Ease Wrote:  I generally skip over muddled posts.

You seem to be arguing that these machines were removed because the mail volume has gone down and they were no longer needed.

If that were the case you would expect mail service would not be affected by superfluous equipment. However, there are multiple reports that mail service has slowed significantly. And if that were the case you would expect evidence justifying this decision to be presented, in the form of how equivalent #'s of mail could be handled without these machines, or how much $$ throwing away perfectly functioning equipment is saving the postal service, to quell the concerns about election tampering. I haven't seen anything to that accord, have you?

I'm sorry. Those two sentences look pretty clear to me.

Perhaps you can present some evidence of these machines simply being throw away.
Perhaps you can provide evidence of these claims of slow mail from someone other than the President of the Postal Workers Union.
I know it's a big ask, but perhaps you can provide some actual data to support the claim?

Evidence WAS presented to justify the reduction in equipment, most notably the massive fall in volume... and the flat revenues while other similar companies are rising.

Actually, you just presented evidence to quell concerns about election tampering... that these apparent cost-reduction efforts were suspended over concerns about the appearance.

How about this?
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/16/politics/...index.html

Quote:Internal USPS planning documents obtained by CNN indicate nearly 95% of the mail sorting machines that had been set for removal during the last few months were already scheduled to be taken out of service by now.

There is clear evidence that these reductions were planned before this was an issue.
There is clear evidence that the USPS has underperformed its competition.
There is clear evidence that delivery volumes are down that would justify a cut in equipment.

More conspiracy theory from the left.

(08-18-2020 05:22 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I'm sorry. Those two sentences look pretty clear to me.

Perhaps you can present some evidence of these machines simply being throw away.
Perhaps you can provide evidence of these claims of slow mail from someone other than the President of the Postal Workers Union.
I know it's a big ask, but perhaps you can provide some actual data to support the claim?

Evidence WAS presented to justify the reduction in equipment, most notably the massive fall in volume... and the flat revenues while other similar companies are rising.

Actually, you just presented evidence to quell concerns about election tampering... that these apparent cost-reduction efforts were suspended over concerns about the appearance.

Let's create a scenario where the bank calls and says your ex-wife has been stealing money from your account, but she says she will stop-- would that quell your concerns? Or would you want to know how this happened, why this happened, and most importantly, restore your bank account to its previous condition?

Quote:How about this?
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/16/politics/...index.html

Quote:Internal USPS planning documents obtained by CNN indicate nearly 95% of the mail sorting machines that had been set for removal during the last few months were already scheduled to be taken out of service by now.

Maybe you can clarify why you think this is important. If the plan to remove these machines pre-dated Trump, or this presidential election cycle, then I would absolutely agree that was strong evidence indicating that the removal of these machines were not motivated by considerations relating to mail-in voting. But the documents detailing their removal are only from two months ago.

Is this not the dumbest argument we have seen in the "orange man bad" era? Of all of the fragilities of a quickly super-sized vote by mail system, the first class letter throughput of the USPS even while undergoing some modest modernization and cost cutting operations (which are badly needed) has to be literally the least concern on the list of viable concerns of bulked up vote-by-mail. Maybe the market conditions of the bulk pulp paper market is in a tie for throughput.

Does anyone have trouble mailing bills? Paying taxes? Recieving all sorts of mail on a daily basis from all over the country? No one heard a peep of this post office apocalypse until plans to grow mail in balloting came out of the corona ether. It is hard for me to believe that an additional 2-4 pieces of mail per address spread out over a few weeks will cause a material performance issue with delivery.

What is happening here is that the left concocted this great plan to institute universal vote-by-mail without actually putting any thought into the plan and before realizing it's a crap for brains plan when you only have 3 months to implement.

Issues with mail in voting ranked by me with minimal thought:
1. Handling of physical ballots. We dont use paper ballots anymore pretty much anywhere. It's all electronic or at worst mechanical machine based. Moving all of this to handling physical ballots would require a massive investment in mail handling equipment in order to have a prayer of processing the ballots in the required short time frame. You are going back in time by 100 years in terms of vote tabulation technology with single paper ballots. Most mail in votes aren't even counted right now. If it's not a close race requiring a recount, they leave them in the mail sack. Local precincts in charge of counting such votes simply dont have the infrastructure or experience required to undertake such a challenge. They literally have zero of either. This item would take years of planning and implementation.
2. Custody/security issues with ballots. This is your fraud item. Gaming of the system with respect to intercepting the mail is too easy with the current design of a lot of mail in ballots. Some ballots even have the registered party of the voter in plain text on the envelope. This will take a lot of careful thought and process design to overcome. Ideally, ballot return envelopes are anonymized with zero identification marks. You would also need to provide secure drop boxes in excess of the current mail drop boxes that are out there. The current boxes not on USPS property get broken into all the time in my neighborhood. This item would take 6 to 9 months of planning.
3. Ensuring the voter on the ballot is the person who filled out the ballot. Another fraud item. This is a current weakness of mail in ballots and is exploited routinely. If you think that the only people who this are the ones that get caught I've got some swamp land to sell you. Can probably co-opt the IRSs PIN number system and adapt it to voting. This is another 6-9 month implementation issue.
4. Ballot timing issues. The USPS told voting precincts that ballots need to be sent out with with enough lead time for the trip to the address and the return trip to the voting precinct. Not rocket science here. Literally anyone with an iq over their waist size can tell you mail takes about 3 days to get anywhere. Let's go observe the absolute SHOCK when evil orange man told us via his postal patsy proxies that we need to get ballots mailed at worst a week before the actual election deadline. HE IS RIGGING IT! Oh wait, that is just normal mail operations. Pretty dumb.
5 thru 8: random stuff no one cares about
9. Diminished throughput of the USPS. Literally not an issue. The only issue here are postal workers are mad that they are no longer able to game the overtime rules and they are being forced into a defacto and significant pay cut. This is a significant labor grievance for sure. How much is the throughput of the USPS being affected by these changes? Oh wait, none per the stated goals of the program. Let's ***** about it though like mail has seized up like a frozen Minnesota lake.
Items 10. Thru 99. More useless drivel. Supply of cars with steering wheels on wrong side, etc.
100. That one mailbox they removed in Philadelphia that was on that tweet. They have been removing mailboxes for a decade. In case you are an invalid and incapable of thought, they discovered email a while back and no one uses the mail anymore for items that would be dropped in a mail box. Dumbest reason. We invented email so we could remove mailboxes and perform a coup. Ok.

What has happened here is the left wants universal mail in ballots for various reasons. They thought corona would be a great opportunity to push it through. After cursory thought, it became apparent it cant happen within a year. Not to be frustrated with the reality of implementation, let's instead frame Trump as some mastermind super-Newman who had concocted a grand master plan to disable the postal service and perform a coup on the country. They can also advocate for the venerable postal workers who clock half of their annual take home in overtime.

Anyone who believes one bit of this Trump-USPS conspiracy theory can go hang out with the qanon people in my delete bin. Also, I eat in infamous pizza joints and always mail my taxes at 5pm on Oct 15th.

(08-18-2020 06:36 PM)flash3200 Wrote:  Is this not the dumbest argument we have seen in the "orange man bad" era? Of all of the fragilities of a quickly super-sized vote by mail system, the first class letter throughput of the USPS even while undergoing some modest modernization and cost cutting operations (which are badly needed) has to be literally the least concern on the list of viable concerns of bulked up vote-by-mail. Maybe the market conditions of the bulk pulp paper market is in a tie for throughput.

I don't know if it's the dumbest, but its certainly among them, and also among the least supported by facts, and devoid of rebuttal to alternative explanations.

(08-18-2020 06:35 PM)At Ease Wrote:  

(08-18-2020 05:22 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I'm sorry. Those two sentences look pretty clear to me.

Perhaps you can present some evidence of these machines simply being throw away.
Perhaps you can provide evidence of these claims of slow mail from someone other than the President of the Postal Workers Union.
I know it's a big ask, but perhaps you can provide some actual data to support the claim?

Evidence WAS presented to justify the reduction in equipment, most notably the massive fall in volume... and the flat revenues while other similar companies are rising.

Actually, you just presented evidence to quell concerns about election tampering... that these apparent cost-reduction efforts were suspended over concerns about the appearance.

Let's create a scenario where the bank calls and says your ex-wife has been stealing money from your account, but she says she will stop-- would that quell your concerns? Or would you want to know how this happened, why this happened, and most importantly, restore your bank account to its previous condition?

I guess the above is somehow so muddled that you didn't understand the clear request for facts... and instead thought I was looking for another obtuse speculation... which is essentially asking for speculation in return. Okay... but my speculation will allude to known facts:

Let's start with this. Nobody has stolen anything... you are merely speculating that they will... so your premise is flawed from the start. Your speculation is not only being assumed as fact, but as having already taken place. This is clearly a flawed premise.

As to 'how and why' this happened, that has been explained, and was in action prior to you having any money in that account. (prior to voting). I get that you may not accept these explanations, but that's a choice and not a fact. It has been explained.

A better, but still flawed analogy might be that you had an account with no money in it, but planned to put money in it months later. The bank, which has been underperforming its peers, has seen a huge drop in deposits and is under new management has decided to close some branches. You speculate, but have not demonstrated that they will close the branch closest to you, but not closest to your ex... and you suspect that the reason for the closing of those numbered, but not identified branches is for the bank to help facilitate your wife stealing from you... and you want them to keep all of their branches open, in case your wife tries to steal from you. It's flawed because your wife also has an account that you could steal from... and the closures could also harm your ability to steal from her.

I'd also point out that Trump and Brennan apparently didn't see eye to eye for quite some time. In 2018, he apparently personally asked her to double the cost to Amazon, which is somewhat in line with what I've also suggested would be a traditional business concept. She announced her intent to resign last October... but stayed on until May while they found her replacement. That was her call... but somehow it fits your speculation so I guess she was complicit as well.

Quote:

Quote:How about this?
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/16/politics/...index.html

Quote:Internal USPS planning documents obtained by CNN indicate nearly 95% of the mail sorting machines that had been set for removal during the last few months were already scheduled to be taken out of service by now.

Maybe you can clarify why you think this is important. If the plan to remove these machines pre-dated Trump, or this presidential election cycle, then I would absolutely agree that was strong evidence indicating that the removal of these machines were not motivated by considerations relating to mail-in voting. But the documents detailing their removal are only from two months ago.

Pre-dating Trump means 4 years ago.... That's a pretty big 'ask' for corporate planning. I suspect but can't prove that the number of sorters being used has declined as volumes have declined... because 13% of the current sorters wouldn't address the drop in volumes over the past 10 years. That would portend a MUCH larger cut in the number of sorters. Pre-dating the election cycle depends on how you define 'election cycle'. Does 10/2019 when Brennan announced her resignation count? Without that, it's a Democrat making these calls. Calls to make the USPS more efficient which would certainly include reducing letter sorting machines as letter volumes decline and those calls certainly predate this election cycle.

Perhaps you should ask CNN why they thought it was important to mention. It's not like this was a FOX article. They wrote the article and apparently thought it was on point. I suspect you'd actually have to look at the reference internal documents. The way I read it, they are saying that documents from June show a plan to remove 502 by Sep 30, but that 95% of those (475) were 'already scheduled to be removed.' It doesn't say specifically when that 'already' decision was made, but it certainly reads to me like it was previous to the June documents. It seems to me to imply that the documents in June actually reference and expand somewhat an earlier decision. I haven't seen the documents and CNN did not provide them.

The new Postmaster took over in June... so this makes some sense that he might update and make relatively minor additional adjustments to previous decisions to downsize, though I can't prove it. It's not my job to prove your speculation. I was merely trying to answer your questions.

I see the complaint from the Union boss about mail piling up. Can she present any evidence that this is a result of a lack of sorting capability? Numbers would help and would be simple. As I recall, a sorter is capable of processing 36,500 pieces per day. I read something like that somewhere. Do we have evidence that post office 'x' is at or is reasonably expected to be near the capacity of the number of machines that they have?

Seriously, if I were running the USPS and I were concerned about having enough sorters to handle 'mail in' ballots, Rural America (which skews right) wouldn't be my concern. Social distancing is easier and COVID outbreaks are lower there... so they are less likely to see big increases in volumes. I'd be concerned that we potentially need those 502 sorters in urban areas, which skew left. The fact that I'm concerned about this and yet I haven't seen that concern from the left, certainly not from you is IMO, telling. I haven't even seen any facts to support claims that these are being removed from highly democratic districts. The first thing I'd do is quite simple... I'd prioritize mail-in ballots. If that means that someone's junk mail or birthday card is late, so what? As to collecting them, they're all the same size and going to the same place. This isn't rocket science. Elections are also run by the states. How about since unlike absentee ballots, mail-in ballots aren't tied to your name, we allow UPS, Fed Ex, police, fire, schools and others to distribute and perhaps collect them as well? Even with no evidence that this is an actual problem, I can think of numerous ways to address these speculations.

Perhaps you can present your own evidence as opposed to asking me to disprove your speculation and hypotheticals. It's not really conducive to good conversation for one person to make a claim with few facts and demand others to prove it's false... and then sit back and say 'that doesn't do it for me'.

democrats are trying to steal the election. Prove me wrong.

(08-19-2020 11:29 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I guess the above is somehow so muddled that you didn't understand the clear request for facts...

Silly me for assuming that you would actually read the link that you posted, as that would be the evidence that these machines are being thrown away you asked for.

(08-19-2020 11:29 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Let's start with this. Nobody has stolen anything... {rest removed for sake of, uh.. thread brevity]

OK, analogies are not your thing apparently... yikes. The point was that ending a destructive act and repairing an act of destruction are two wholly separate things. Putting those machines back online, and repairing the disruptions to mail delivery, would quell concerns about election-influenced tampering of the postal service. Stopping the removal of those machines, after hundreds have been already been removed, and refusing to replace them, would not quell such concerns, because the damage that has taken place is not being undone. Why you would argue the latter is unclear.

Quote:How about this?
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/16/politics/...index.html

Quote:Internal USPS planning documents obtained by CNN indicate nearly 95% of the mail sorting machines that had been set for removal during the last few months were already scheduled to be taken out of service by now.

(08-19-2020 11:29 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Perhaps you should ask CNN why they thought it was important to mention. It's not like this was a FOX article. They wrote the article and apparently thought it was on point. I suspect you'd actually have to look at the reference internal documents. The way I read it, they are saying that documents from June show a plan to remove 502 by Sep 30, but that 95% of those (475) were 'already scheduled to be removed.' It doesn't say specifically when that 'already' decision was made, but it certainly reads to me like it was previous to the June documents. It seems to me to imply that the documents in June actually reference and expand somewhat an earlier decision. I haven't seen the documents and CNN did not provide them.

The bolded is correct, so it was unclear why you are citing this. I have presented how my concerns could be immediately allayed.

(08-19-2020 11:29 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Seriously, if I were running the USPS and I were concerned about having enough sorters to handle 'mail in' ballots, Rural America (which skews right) wouldn't be my concern. Social distancing is easier and COVID outbreaks are lower there... so they are less likely to see big increases in volumes. I'd be concerned that we potentially need those 502 sorters in urban areas, which skew left. The fact that I'm concerned about this and yet I haven't seen that concern from the left, certainly not from you is IMO, telling. I haven't even seen any facts to support claims that these are being removed from highly democratic districts. The first thing I'd do is quite simple... I'd prioritize mail-in ballots. If that means that someone's junk mail or birthday card is late, so what? As to collecting them, they're all the same size and going to the same place. This isn't rocket science. Elections are also run by the states. How about since unlike absentee ballots, mail-in ballots aren't tied to your name, we allow UPS, Fed Ex, police, fire, schools and others to distribute and perhaps collect them as well? Even with no evidence that this is an actual problem, I can think of numerous ways to address these speculations.

I don't know why it would need to be in a Democratic stronghold. Democrats are much more likely to vote by mail in general.

https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institu...US_081120/


Another rule change that made the news today that makes it harder to vote by mail:

Quote:In a nationwide rule change that went unnoticed this summer, the U.S. Postal Service has forbidden employees from signing absentee ballots as witnesses while on duty. The change could make it more difficult for Alaskans, particularly rural residents, to vote by mail.

In Alaska and several other states, absentee ballots must be signed by a witness who can verify that a ballot was legitimately filled out by a particular voter. Without a signature, the ballot will not be counted.

https://www.adn.com/politics/2020/08/18/...witnesses/


If you want to continue this discussion, the Smack Board would be a more appropriate forum where some of these posts could be more accurately evaluated without violating AUP.

As an addendum,

The point of this thread was not to lay out a prosecutor's case of illegal activity at the Post Office. There will be investigations into what has happened, and we'll learn more and can judge then.

It was to ask the board if they had any concerns relating to our election:

Are you concerned that the President has made a number of baseless claims assailing the legitimacy of mail-in voting?

Are you concerned that the President has refused funding for the Postal Service because, direct quote, "they need that money in order to make the Post Office work, so it can take all of these millions and millions of ballots"?

Are you concerned that the Post Office is being run by a partisan figure that has enacted changes that could be expected to make it harder for people to vote by mail in November?

And the answer appears to be no. Some have tried to change the subject to privatization. Others have offered weak speculation to justify the changes. And that's fine-- Trump's base has made clear by now that they are OK with fascism as long as it's directed at their cultural enemies, so there certainly was no expectation that the specter of election tampering (and probably not even full-born proof) would elicit any concern.

From a logistical standpoint - do we know why these machines were taken off line? Are they in post offices that are being closed or downsized? If not, wouldn’t it likely have been cheaper (and provide more flexibility) to mothball them and not take them out of service and break them down?

Honestly, the writing on the wall for the pandemic affecting the election and leading to more mail in votes has been there for months. If the decisions made by the new post master general aren’t negligent, they seem to be rather ill timed, at best.

(08-19-2020 05:28 PM)At Ease Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 11:29 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I guess the above is somehow so muddled that you didn't understand the clear request for facts...

Silly me for assuming that you would actually read the link that you posted, as that would be the evidence that these machines are being thrown away you asked for.

From the article.... showing a disassembled DBCS machine. The majority of the machine is being scrapped; part of it will remain in use by the USPS.
CNN has previously reported that union officials had said the destination of each removed machine varies. Some are scrapped entirely while some are transferred to other facilities.

So let's break this down...
1) The ONE machine that we have evidence of being 'scrapped' ... some of it is being kept by the USPS. Logic would dictate that if you're taking equipment offline, that you're going to take the oldest, worst, most beat up... and at least one of them will have useful parts (to repair others) and lots of useless parts. Your actual quote was 'throwing away perfectly functioning equipment'. You've presented no evidence that this machine was even in operation at the time, much less perfectly functioning, and they obviously didn't throw all of it away.

2) your source for the rest of the claim is another union official... and even they say the destination of each removed machine varies. Some are scrapped entirely while some are transferred to other facilities.

If you want to argue that you didn't intend to say that ALL of the equipment was being thrown away, okay... but you've still not demonstrated that the ONE was 'functioning perfectly'. I mean, it doesn't even make logical sense that you would decommission equipment and not transfer surplus equipment, salvage useful replacement parts and scrap useless and non-functioning parts. This is not remotely the same as 'throwing out perfectly functioning equipment'.

Quote:OK, analogies are not your thing apparently... yikes. The point was that ending a destructive act and repairing an act of destruction are two wholly separate things. Putting those machines back online, and repairing the disruptions to mail delivery, would quell concerns about election-influenced tampering of the postal service. Stopping the removal of those machines, after hundreds have been already been removed, and refusing to replace them, would not quell such concerns, because the damage that has taken place is not being undone. Why you would argue the latter is unclear.

I actually love analogies... I just prefer good ones. As I suggested, you're claiming damage without having to demonstrate it.... So yes, I think my 'bank account that your wife MAY steal from in a few months' is absolutely better. This is a relatively minor portion of the correction.

Quote:

(08-19-2020 11:29 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:   It doesn't say specifically when that 'already' decision was made, but it certainly reads to me like it was previous to the June documents. It seems to me to imply that the documents in June actually reference and expand somewhat an earlier decision. I haven't seen the documents and CNN did not provide them.

The bolded is correct, so it was unclear why you are citing this. I have presented how my concerns could be immediately allayed.

Who cares about allaying your concerns? I'm once again asking you to prove them. You keep asking me for more and more evidence, and you keep refusing to prove your own claims.

I'm obviously citing it because the new guy took over on June 15... This only says the documents were in June... so unless he wrote two plans within his first two weeks, there is a pretty reasonable chance that the 'already' decision was made before a Republican took the position... and thus it occurred under a Democrat's watch. If you disagree, please provide some evidence.

Quote:

(08-19-2020 11:29 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Seriously, if I were running the USPS and I were concerned about having enough sorters to handle 'mail in' ballots, Rural America (which skews right) wouldn't be my concern. Social distancing is easier and COVID outbreaks are lower there... so they are less likely to see big increases in volumes. I'd be concerned that we potentially need those 502 sorters in urban areas, which skew left. The fact that I'm concerned about this and yet I haven't seen that concern from the left, certainly not from you is IMO, telling. I haven't even seen any facts to support claims that these are being removed from highly democratic districts. The first thing I'd do is quite simple... I'd prioritize mail-in ballots. If that means that someone's junk mail or birthday card is late, so what? As to collecting them, they're all the same size and going to the same place. This isn't rocket science. Elections are also run by the states. How about since unlike absentee ballots, mail-in ballots aren't tied to your name, we allow UPS, Fed Ex, police, fire, schools and others to distribute and perhaps collect them as well? Even with no evidence that this is an actual problem, I can think of numerous ways to address these speculations.

I don't know why it would need to be in a Democratic stronghold. Democrats are much more likely to vote by mail in general.

The link you put up shows that Democrats PREFER making it easier to vote by mail. I don't see that it shows that they actually DO so. More significantly, these are generic national numbers... and don't reflect local differences.

As I said, Rural America skews right... There is no real advantage to Republicans to suppress voting by EITHER party in areas where they expect to win. That just doesn't make a lot of sense. It seems obvious to me that if you wanted to 'steal an election', that you would want to suppress voting in larger population areas where your opponents hold power... Not to mention that one machine in one urban area could arguably suppress 36,500 ballots, while most rural areas don't even have a population half that size.

Quote:Another rule change that made the news today that makes it harder to vote by mail:

Quote:In a nationwide rule change that went unnoticed this summer, the U.S. Postal Service has forbidden employees from signing absentee ballots as witnesses while on duty. The change could make it more difficult for Alaskans, particularly rural residents, to vote by mail.

In Alaska and several other states, absentee ballots must be signed by a witness who can verify that a ballot was legitimately filled out by a particular voter. Without a signature, the ballot will not be counted.

https://www.adn.com/politics/2020/08/18/...witnesses/

First, You realize that rural Alaska is EXTREMELY conservative, right? Lots of 'off-the gridders'. Again, why are you upset with them if Republicans want to harm themselves?

Second, this seems rather poorly vetted.

Quote:If you want to continue this discussion, the Smack Board would be a more appropriate forum where some of these posts could be more accurately evaluated without violating AUP.

So it takes 'smack' to accurately evaluate facts? We apparently live in very different worlds. If you won't answer my very direct questions here, you sure as hell won't answer them there. The whole point of this forum is to avoid (as much as possible) 'smack'.

(08-19-2020 05:29 PM)At Ease Wrote:  The point of this thread was not to lay out a prosecutor's case of illegal activity at the Post Office. There will be investigations into what has happened, and we'll learn more and can judge then.

That may have been your point, but you do not control others who post here, nor can we dictate what others post. Welcome to the Quad.

I'm not looking for a prosecutor's case... I can't prove 'why' they've done these things... It just seems awfully contrived that Republicans somehow talked the Democratic appointed PMG to resign, 4-5 months before a novel virus that we initially thought wasn't an issue, or would be gone by the summer... would threaten the validity of our election 8 months later... and the much simpler explanation is that the new guy has a goal of turning a company with declining business and flat revenues into a more profitable operation... just as he did in the job that he did that earned him this position.

Quote:Are you concerned that the President has made a number of baseless claims assailing the legitimacy of mail-in voting?

Baseless? According to your own link, something like 70-80% of both Republicans and Democrats and 66% of Independents are concerned about it.

Quote:Are you concerned that the President has refused funding for the Postal Service because, direct quote, "they need that money in order to make the Post Office work, so it can take all of these millions and millions of ballots"?

Link please? Having said that, short of an EO, The President doesn't control budgets... and he won't control this one. The states run the elections. If he thinks its a boondoggle for the USPS, who cares?

Quote:Are you concerned that the Post Office is being run by a partisan figure that has enacted changes that could be expected to make it harder for people to vote by mail in November?

Can you please demonstrate that he's more partisan than the person he replaced? No, I'm not particularly concerned about it because as I've said... it seems that even if I 'buy in' to your allegations, that he could easily be working AGAINST his own party... and also as I said, if a state is worried about it, all they have to do is use UPS or any state office. USPS is used by states for elections, but they are NOT part of the election process.

Quote:And the answer appears to be no.

Not really. Big difference between concern about generalities and buying into specific conspiracies.

Quote:Some have tried to change the subject to privatization.

Actually, everyone but you did this.... not just some... and it was a solid discussion until you 'demanded' that we have 'your' conversation.

Quote:Others have offered weak speculation to justify the changes.

So perhaps the most common response in the history of economics of scaling back operations during a time of declining volumes and flat revenues is 'weak speculation'? Okay. If that's weak, the premise it is responding to is ridiculous.

Quote:And that's fine-- Trump's base has made clear by now that they are OK with fascism as long as it's directed at their cultural enemies, so there certainly was no expectation that the specter of election tampering (and probably not even full-born proof) would elicit any concern.

And now your true colors come through. Once again, people who didn't vote for Trump last time and many won't this time either are 'Trump's base' and 'OK with fascism'.

(08-19-2020 09:22 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  From a logistical standpoint - do we know why these machines were taken off line? Are they in post offices that are being closed or downsized? If not, wouldn’t it likely have been cheaper (and provide more flexibility) to mothball them and not take them out of service and break them down?

Honestly, the writing on the wall for the pandemic affecting the election and leading to more mail in votes has been there for months. If the decisions made by the new post master general aren’t negligent, they seem to be rather ill timed, at best.

Re-read the article. As I said to AE... The only evidence shown is one machine that was (paraphrasing) stripped of useful parts to be used as replacements in other machines. I mean, let's be serious... The metal 'casing' and table stand and hoppers which make up the physical majority of the equipment probably doesn't need to be saved. It's the sensors and tracks and computer components that are valuable as replacement parts. Even so, this seems consistent with your request. The rest of the allegation (which comes from a union member with a clear reason to be against ANY cuts) is exactly what you suggest. Some was likely in some form of disrepair and was stripped of useful parts, and others were mothballed or sent to other facilities. The only person who has suggested that they merely disposed of perfectly functioning equipment was at ease.

Going back to the link I gave on page 1 https://facts.usps.com/table-facts/ Pick a time frame. I don't know when this last happened.

Let me see if I can aling this...
2019 2014 2009
Mail volume 142.6b 155.5b 170.9b
1st Class Mail 54.9 63.8b 77.6b
postal managed retail offices 31,322 31,662 32,528
total retail office 34,613 35,649 36,222
retail customer visits 811.8m 948.7m 1.06b

Now let's get serious...

According to businessinsider.com/usps-turning-off-mail-sorting-machines-ahead-of-the-election-2020-8 and other sources, these machines can sort 35,000 pieces of first class mail (as ballots would be) PER HOUR. I earlier thought it was 'per day'...

So what rural location needs more than one of these? Heck... depending on how you define 'rural', why do ANY of them need one at all?

(08-19-2020 11:41 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  First, You realize that rural Alaska is EXTREMELY conservative, right? Lots of 'off-the gridders'. Again, why are you upset with them if Republicans want to harm themselves?

This is probably the crux of our difference. If this move harms the capacity of some (or even more) Republicans to vote, then I WOULD STILL FEEL THE EXACT SAME WAY. It's obvious from your projection here, and the indefensible actions of this administration you regularly run deflection for, that party comes first for you instead. As Amash, the only candidate I have expressed enthusiasm for, has gone into detail about, this is the greatest threat our democracy faces.

Quote:So it takes 'smack' to accurately evaluate facts? We apparently live in very different worlds. If you won't answer my very direct questions here, you sure as hell won't answer them there. The whole point of this forum is to avoid (as much as possible) 'smack'.

No, you misunderstand again. It takes the liberties of the smack board to suitably characterize your disjointed and low-information (link please? ) argumentation.

(08-20-2020 12:01 AM)At Ease Wrote:  It takes the liberties of the smack board to suitably characterize your disjointed and low-information (link please? ) argumentation.

That comment, directly after the one where you say "Trump's base has made clear by now that they are OK with fascism as long as it's directed at their cultural enemies," is side splittingly hypocritical.

Lolz. At least you arent in your normal mode of a one post rock throwing and running away.

(08-19-2020 11:41 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 05:28 PM)At Ease Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 11:29 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I guess the above is somehow so muddled that you didn't understand the clear request for facts...

Silly me for assuming that you would actually read the link that you posted, as that would be the evidence that these machines are being thrown away you asked for.

From the article.... showing a disassembled DBCS machine. The majority of the machine is being scrapped; part of it will remain in use by the USPS.
CNN has previously reported that union officials had said the destination of each removed machine varies. Some are scrapped entirely while some are transferred to other facilities.

So let's break this down...
1) The ONE machine that we have evidence of being 'scrapped' ... some of it is being kept by the USPS. Logic would dictate that if you're taking equipment offline, that you're going to take the oldest, worst, most beat up... and at least one of them will have useful parts (to repair others) and lots of useless parts. Your actual quote was 'throwing away perfectly functioning equipment'. You've presented no evidence that this machine was even in operation at the time, much less perfectly functioning, and they obviously didn't throw all of it away.

2) your source for the rest of the claim is another union official... and even they say the destination of each removed machine varies. Some are scrapped entirely while some are transferred to other facilities.

If you want to argue that you didn't intend to say that ALL of the equipment was being thrown away, okay... but you've still not demonstrated that the ONE was 'functioning perfectly'. I mean, it doesn't even make logical sense that you would decommission equipment and not transfer surplus equipment, salvage useful replacement parts and scrap useless and non-functioning parts. This is not remotely the same as 'throwing out perfectly functioning equipment'.

Quote:OK, analogies are not your thing apparently... yikes. The point was that ending a destructive act and repairing an act of destruction are two wholly separate things. Putting those machines back online, and repairing the disruptions to mail delivery, would quell concerns about election-influenced tampering of the postal service. Stopping the removal of those machines, after hundreds have been already been removed, and refusing to replace them, would not quell such concerns, because the damage that has taken place is not being undone. Why you would argue the latter is unclear.

I actually love analogies... I just prefer good ones. As I suggested, you're claiming damage without having to demonstrate it.... So yes, I think my 'bank account that your wife MAY steal from in a few months' is absolutely better. This is a relatively minor portion of the correction.

Quote:

(08-19-2020 11:29 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:   It doesn't say specifically when that 'already' decision was made, but it certainly reads to me like it was previous to the June documents. It seems to me to imply that the documents in June actually reference and expand somewhat an earlier decision. I haven't seen the documents and CNN did not provide them.

The bolded is correct, so it was unclear why you are citing this. I have presented how my concerns could be immediately allayed.

Who cares about allaying your concerns? I'm once again asking you to prove them. You keep asking me for more and more evidence, and you keep refusing to prove your own claims.

I'm obviously citing it because the new guy took over on June 15... This only says the documents were in June... so unless he wrote two plans within his first two weeks, there is a pretty reasonable chance that the 'already' decision was made before a Republican took the position... and thus it occurred under a Democrat's watch. If you disagree, please provide some evidence.

Quote:

(08-19-2020 11:29 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Seriously, if I were running the USPS and I were concerned about having enough sorters to handle 'mail in' ballots, Rural America (which skews right) wouldn't be my concern. Social distancing is easier and COVID outbreaks are lower there... so they are less likely to see big increases in volumes. I'd be concerned that we potentially need those 502 sorters in urban areas, which skew left. The fact that I'm concerned about this and yet I haven't seen that concern from the left, certainly not from you is IMO, telling. I haven't even seen any facts to support claims that these are being removed from highly democratic districts. The first thing I'd do is quite simple... I'd prioritize mail-in ballots. If that means that someone's junk mail or birthday card is late, so what? As to collecting them, they're all the same size and going to the same place. This isn't rocket science. Elections are also run by the states. How about since unlike absentee ballots, mail-in ballots aren't tied to your name, we allow UPS, Fed Ex, police, fire, schools and others to distribute and perhaps collect them as well? Even with no evidence that this is an actual problem, I can think of numerous ways to address these speculations.

I don't know why it would need to be in a Democratic stronghold. Democrats are much more likely to vote by mail in general.

The link you put up shows that Democrats PREFER making it easier to vote by mail. I don't see that it shows that they actually DO so. More significantly, these are generic national numbers... and don't reflect local differences.

As I said, Rural America skews right... There is no real advantage to Republicans to suppress voting by EITHER party in areas where they expect to win. That just doesn't make a lot of sense. It seems obvious to me that if you wanted to 'steal an election', that you would want to suppress voting in larger population areas where your opponents hold power... Not to mention that one machine in one urban area could arguably suppress 36,500 ballots, while most rural areas don't even have a population half that size.

Quote:Another rule change that made the news today that makes it harder to vote by mail:

Quote:In a nationwide rule change that went unnoticed this summer, the U.S. Postal Service has forbidden employees from signing absentee ballots as witnesses while on duty. The change could make it more difficult for Alaskans, particularly rural residents, to vote by mail.

In Alaska and several other states, absentee ballots must be signed by a witness who can verify that a ballot was legitimately filled out by a particular voter. Without a signature, the ballot will not be counted.

https://www.adn.com/politics/2020/08/18/...witnesses/

First, You realize that rural Alaska is EXTREMELY conservative, right? Lots of 'off-the gridders'. Again, why are you upset with them if Republicans want to harm themselves?

Second, this seems rather poorly vetted.

Quote:If you want to continue this discussion, the Smack Board would be a more appropriate forum where some of these posts could be more accurately evaluated without violating AUP.

So it takes 'smack' to accurately evaluate facts? We apparently live in very different worlds. If you won't answer my very direct questions here, you sure as hell won't answer them there. The whole point of this forum is to avoid (as much as possible) 'smack'.

(08-19-2020 05:29 PM)At Ease Wrote:  The point of this thread was not to lay out a prosecutor's case of illegal activity at the Post Office. There will be investigations into what has happened, and we'll learn more and can judge then.

That may have been your point, but you do not control others who post here, nor can we dictate what others post. Welcome to the Quad.

I'm not looking for a prosecutor's case... I can't prove 'why' they've done these things... It just seems awfully contrived that Republicans somehow talked the Democratic appointed PMG to resign, 4-5 months before a novel virus that we initially thought wasn't an issue, or would be gone by the summer... would threaten the validity of our election 8 months later... and the much simpler explanation is that the new guy has a goal of turning a company with declining business and flat revenues into a more profitable operation... just as he did in the job that he did that earned him this position.

Quote:Are you concerned that the President has made a number of baseless claims assailing the legitimacy of mail-in voting?

Baseless? According to your own link, something like 70-80% of both Republicans and Democrats and 66% of Independents are concerned about it.

Quote:Are you concerned that the President has refused funding for the Postal Service because, direct quote, "they need that money in order to make the Post Office work, so it can take all of these millions and millions of ballots"?

Link please? Having said that, short of an EO, The President doesn't control budgets... and he won't control this one. The states run the elections. If he thinks its a boondoggle for the USPS, who cares?

Quote:Are you concerned that the Post Office is being run by a partisan figure that has enacted changes that could be expected to make it harder for people to vote by mail in November?

Can you please demonstrate that he's more partisan than the person he replaced? No, I'm not particularly concerned about it because as I've said... it seems that even if I 'buy in' to your allegations, that he could easily be working AGAINST his own party... and also as I said, if a state is worried about it, all they have to do is use UPS or any state office. USPS is used by states for elections, but they are NOT part of the election process.

Quote:And the answer appears to be no.

Not really. Big difference between concern about generalities and buying into specific conspiracies.

Quote:Some have tried to change the subject to privatization.

Actually, everyone but you did this.... not just some... and it was a solid discussion until you 'demanded' that we have 'your' conversation.

Quote:Others have offered weak speculation to justify the changes.

So perhaps the most common response in the history of economics of scaling back operations during a time of declining volumes and flat revenues is 'weak speculation'? Okay. If that's weak, the premise it is responding to is ridiculous.

Quote:And that's fine-- Trump's base has made clear by now that they are OK with fascism as long as it's directed at their cultural enemies, so there certainly was no expectation that the specter of election tampering (and probably not even full-born proof) would elicit any concern.

And now your true colors come through. Once again, people who didn't vote for Trump last time and many won't this time either are 'Trump's base' and 'OK with fascism'.

(08-19-2020 09:22 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  From a logistical standpoint - do we know why these machines were taken off line? Are they in post offices that are being closed or downsized? If not, wouldn’t it likely have been cheaper (and provide more flexibility) to mothball them and not take them out of service and break them down?

Honestly, the writing on the wall for the pandemic affecting the election and leading to more mail in votes has been there for months. If the decisions made by the new post master general aren’t negligent, they seem to be rather ill timed, at best.

Re-read the article. As I said to AE... The only evidence shown is one machine that was (paraphrasing) stripped of useful parts to be used as replacements in other machines. I mean, let's be serious... The metal 'casing' and table stand and hoppers which make up the physical majority of the equipment probably doesn't need to be saved. It's the sensors and tracks and computer components that are valuable as replacement parts. Even so, this seems consistent with your request. The rest of the allegation (which comes from a union member with a clear reason to be against ANY cuts) is exactly what you suggest. Some was likely in some form of disrepair and was stripped of useful parts, and others were mothballed or sent to other facilities. The only person who has suggested that they merely disposed of perfectly functioning equipment was at ease.

Going back to the link I gave on page 1 https://facts.usps.com/table-facts/ Pick a time frame. I don't know when this last happened.

Let me see if I can aling this...
2019 2014 2009
Mail volume 142.6b 155.5b 170.9b
1st Class Mail 54.9 63.8b 77.6b
postal managed retail offices 31,322 31,662 32,528
total retail office 34,613 35,649 36,222
retail customer visits 811.8m 948.7m 1.06b

Now let's get serious...

According to businessinsider.com/usps-turning-off-mail-sorting-machines-ahead-of-the-election-2020-8 and other sources, these machines can sort 35,000 pieces of first class mail (as ballots would be) PER HOUR. I earlier thought it was 'per day'...

So what rural location needs more than one of these? Heck... depending on how you define 'rural', why do ANY of them need one at all?

I take issue with your characterization that these are rural locations only (“what rural location needs more than one of these?”). A cursory Google search shows sorting machines being removed in Boston, Portland, Charlotte, and San Antonio.

And I also don’t know why union members aren’t reliable sources on machines being taken out of service - do you think they’re just lying through their teeth across the country? The USPS has itself admitted that machines are being removed as part of their new operational strategy.

Back to my first question, which is about timing and cost cutting and why not just leave the machines mothballed, especially with the VERY obvious increase in mail service that is going to start in November.

Let’s assume that all of these plans are actually great and will save the USPS from insolvency. Is now, both in the middle of a pandemic and a few months before an election, the right time to make major changes to how both USPS employees can operate and how major mail sorting machines can operate? It isn’t like the aim is to make mail delivery faster or easier, but to cut costs and try and not hinder operations as much as possible.

At best it seems like a completely ill-timed endeavor.

I hate to end a good argument, but the sorting and delivery of mail-in ballots is a piece of piss.

The processing of those ballots is problematic.
They have to be (more than likely): opened; scanned; validated; and tabulated.

Votes are normally counted at the precinct level. I assume the mail-in votes will be processed at the county level.

Which counties have the capability of processing tens if not hundreds of thousands of mail-in ballots in a relatively short time frame? Maybe all of them, I don't know, but the processing and scanning equipment isn't cheap.

The more human intervention in a process the more likely or greater possibility of error or fraud. Isn't there a noted problem with vote counting already in south Florida, a key swing state?

We, the royal 'we', don't have that problem in the UK. We still rely on paper ballots that have to be counted by thousands of volunteers.

It was determined that there was wide spread fraud with the limited number of mail-in ballots as the heads of household controlled/manipulated those ballots.

Of course there's always ballot harvesting. Who would question the validity of such a process?

(08-20-2020 07:07 AM)MerseyOwl Wrote:  I hate to end a good argument, but the sorting and delivery of mail-in ballots is a piece of piss.

The processing of those ballots is problematic.
They have to be (more than likely): opened; scanned; validated; and tabulated.

Votes are normally counted at the precinct level. I assume the mail-in votes will be processed at the county level.

Which counties have the capability of processing tens if not hundreds of thousands of mail-in ballots in a relatively short time frame? Maybe all of them, I don't know, but the processing and scanning equipment isn't cheap.

The more human intervention in a process the more likely or greater possibility of error or fraud. Isn't there a noted problem with vote counting already in south Florida, a key swing state?

We, the royal 'we', don't have that problem in the UK. We still rely on paper ballots that have to be counted by thousands of volunteers.

It was determined that there was wide spread fraud with the limited number of mail-in ballots as the heads of household controlled/manipulated those ballots.

Of course there's always ballot harvesting. Who would question the validity of such a process?

I feel like I'm constantly saying "why not both" on this board...

One worry about the mail delivery is that many (if not all?) states reject ballots received after election day, regardless of when it was postmarked.

The processing of mail in votes also appears to be an issue with what will likely be an increase in the use of mail-in or absentee ballots this year. This article provides some general insights into the process and how some states are adapting: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-el...s-n1234540

Some states already seem to be well positioned to handle this - Colorado saw 99.3% of all Dem primary votes be cast with mail or drop-off ballots, and they were able to report the results by the polls' closing times.

Some states are also trying to implement pre-election night vote processing to speed things up and do the legwork required to validate these kinds of votes.

Sorry, what I'm saying is the USPS re-organisation should have no effect on mail-in ballots.

Nancy & Co. have established it as an existential threat to democracy as we know it.

Postmaster General: "Fine, I'll delay my implementation plans until after the election."

Nancy: "Not so fast (I want to use this non event as an excuse to: grand stand; call back Congress; expose Trump as a would be dictator; disrupt the Republican Convention; and take another shot at passing costly legislation not limited to subsidizing a failing government service)."

The chances that any voting will be limited to supporting the USPS --> 0.

The Dems just want to cry wolf (Trump is trying to steal the election!!!) so they can rely on it in case he wins again. Four more years of lies and innuendo from the left.