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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Mail-in voting
(08-20-2020 10:05 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  The Dems just want to cry wolf (Trump is trying to steal the election!!!) so they can rely on it in case he wins again. Four more years of lies and innuendo from the left.

Let's be honest about how Trump has framed the issue. He has fueled this fire plenty by constantly attacking mail in voting as being fraudulent (when he has used it to vote).
08-20-2020 11:03 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Mail-in voting
(08-20-2020 11:03 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-20-2020 10:05 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  The Dems just want to cry wolf (Trump is trying to steal the election!!!) so they can rely on it in case he wins again. Four more years of lies and innuendo from the left.

Let's be honest about how Trump has framed the issue. He has fueled this fire plenty by constantly attacking mail in voting as being fraudulent (when he has used it to vote).



I guess you must think I am dishonest. Thanks. I prefer that to deluded.

I have heard that distinctions have been made between absentee balloting and universal mail in voting. am I wrong in that?

I do know this - there are still thousands of mail-in 2000 Florida ballots that have not been counted.



Issue aside, I expect both sides to advocate what they think helps them electorally. I think it a bunch of hogwash that Dems only care about fairness. That is for sound bites.
08-20-2020 11:13 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Mail-in voting
This is like arguing with someone about aliens.

Good luck in the smack forum, At Ease

Lad, you've missed some of the conversation. I won't waste your time other than to say that any references to rural places (which skew right) or 'postal union workers' (who skew left, and are on the opposite side of the discussion from 'management') 1) come from his own sources and 2) are designed only to show that these situations he himself has presented are directly and indirectly at odds with the claims he thinks they prove. That's all.

There doesn't seem to be a consensus on exactly how many machines have actually been removed or from specifically where. We only know for a fact (based on anything presented here by anyone) about one machine being scrapped for parts. We are told (by someone with reason not to support management here) that 'some' of the machines have been repurposed within USPS which means they're at least doing some of what you asked in terms of at least 'some' of them still being in use or useful. Is some 1 or 499? We don't know.

As to 'is now the right time time'; well, I guess that depends on perspectives and lots of information that we don't know.
From appearances, no... so it's been stopped.

Here's the thing though... This has been described as something that 'the new guy' has put into action... I'm looking for confirmation of that. He started 6/15 and 'documents in june' show that (from memory, but I'm close) 525 machines are to be removed by 9/30... but 'previous plans' had 475 of them being removed by 7/30. "Previous' isn't defined. He may not have had anything to do with that, other than not being priescent enough to stop it. Given that from 7/30-9/30, they are removing 50 machines over 60 days, it seems unlikely that they would announce sometime between 6/15 and 6/30 that 475 would have to be removed within 30-45 days. I'm not claiming I'm right, I'm merely applying logic rather than speculation when facts are not present. I don't know that we can claim FACTUALLY that 'he' started this, or even that it wasn't planned prior to any meaningful expectation of a pandemic impacting the election.

Even knowing 'San Antonio' isn't enough to know if it is politically motivated. Unless every zip code in SA is identical... it COULD be targeting Reps, or it COULD be targeting Dems or it could be totally random. Why would you risk your freedom, career and reputation to influence an election if you didn't choose the direction? If San Antonio has (just making up numbers) average daily volume of 2mm pieces of 1st class mail and they have capacity for 4mm pieces so they want to remove a machine which reduces their capacity to 3mm, they can still easily process up to 1mm ballots PER DAY for a city of 1.5mm people. 600k voted in 2016 in the whole county.

In the past 5 years, 1st class mail is down 10byn pieces... 15-20%
retail visits are down by 140mm or about the same 15-20%
retail locations are down by only 1,000 or about 3%
I didn't quote it but you can look, I don't think total employment is down anywhere near 15%... but I could be wrong.
In the 5 years prior to that, you see very similar numbers.

There is STRONG evidence that there have been lots of places to cut and still have plenty of/excess capacity. We don't know how much of that actually happened. In terms of retail locations, not much. Maybe lots has already been done and this IS all political, or maybe not much of it has been done and its not a problem at all.

My point there is that you (anyone) can choose to believe what you choose to believe... but that's a choice and not proof. If you want to prove to me that this is happening, then the burden is on you to prove it. The burden is not on me to prove that its not.

As I said, if this is truly a concern of yours... I suggest you write your state elections board and 'work around' the USPS.... which certainly has been used by the government, but they are under no obligation to limit themselves to them.
08-20-2020 12:05 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #84
RE: Mail-in voting
(08-20-2020 11:03 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-20-2020 10:05 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  The Dems just want to cry wolf (Trump is trying to steal the election!!!) so they can rely on it in case he wins again. Four more years of lies and innuendo from the left.

Let's be honest about how Trump has framed the issue. He has fueled this fire plenty by constantly attacking mail in voting as being fraudulent (when he has used it to vote).

I can't believe you're going to deny the difference between an absentee ballot and 'voting by mail'.

I'll give the simplest difference. Hambone10's parents pass and he moves into the family home at 1234 Happy Street, Tx... He registers to vote from there and requests and receives an absentee ballot at his registered address. Perfectly fine.

Because his parents registration is still valid, two more ballots are sent to his house. Also, in the last years of their lives, his sister moved in to help them from another state and registered... and then moved back when they passed... so she votes in her home state, but also gets a ballot sent to Tx. Now Hambone10 is an honest guy and he simply EFFECTIVELY destroys the extra ballots.... but what if he wasn't? Now make him the super of a large apartment complex with high turnover... I'm thinking of a complex I know in CV Cali with lots of military and related vendors who are there for 'months' and not years and then leave the state, but what about college towns?

Sure it's possible that Hambone10 would be so bad that he actually requests absentee ballots for his parents and sister, but if his sister registers and votes in her home state, there is a chance now to catch him. If someone at some point purges the rolls based on death certs, there is a chance to catch him.

There is more to an absentee ballot than simply using the mail to deliver it. If nothing else, there are more opportunities to catch suspicious activity... and while Hambone10 wouldn't... I feel confident that it takes 'more' to get someone to request and then return an illegal absentee ballot than it does to get someone to fill out a ballot that randomly came to them in the mail...
08-20-2020 12:34 PM
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MerseyOwl Offline
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Post: #85
RE: Mail-in voting
Isn't universal mail-in voting just the same pig as "You should be able to vote anywhere", but in a different colour of tulle?

If you oppose: universal mail-in voting; or voting wherever you want; or voting without identification, then just admit the fact that you're an advocate of voter suppression.
08-20-2020 02:45 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #86
RE: Mail-in voting
I think everyone should be able to vote from their armchair, and as many times as they want.
08-20-2020 03:03 PM
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At Ease Offline
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Post: #87
RE: Mail-in voting
08-20-2020 07:35 PM
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At Ease Offline
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Post: #88
RE: Mail-in voting
Testimony today before Congress about the USPS from the former vice chair:

08-20-2020 07:56 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #89
RE: Mail-in voting
(08-20-2020 12:05 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  This is like arguing with someone about aliens.

Funny I have had the same thought, and about the same person, I think.
08-20-2020 08:09 PM
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At Ease Offline
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Post: #90
RE: Mail-in voting
Quote:Louis DeJoy, the Postal Service boss whose overhaul of the agency has raised alarms about the impact on mail-in balloting in November, was not among the candidates initially vetted for the position by a national search firm hired by USPS leaders, House investigators revealed Thursday.

The revelation comes as a former top official at the Postal Service alleged that President Donald Trump's administration is trying to politicize the agency.

House Oversight Committee Democrats say DeJoy's name was put forward by John Barger, a member of the Postal Service's Board of Governors who also happens to be a Republican donor and managing director at a California-based private investment firm.

The revelations come amid efforts by congressional Democrats to learn more about DeJoy's hiring in May when, amid the coronavirus pandemic, he began to implement sharp policy changes, from limiting overtime to dismantling sorting machines — the effect of which Democrats said could disenfranchise thousands of voters. DeJoy is slated to testify to the Republican-led Senate Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee on Friday, and to the House Oversight Committee on Monday.

Capitol Hill Democrats, led by Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer of New York, have sought insight about the search process that led to DeJoy's selection, complaining that the Postal Service had restricted the national firm, Russell Reynolds Associates, from speaking to lawmakers.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/20...ice-399489
08-20-2020 08:28 PM
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MerseyOwl Offline
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Post: #91
RE: Mail-in voting
That darn Orange Man keeps trying to bring in outsiders to fix things.

In every corporate re-organisation I've ever been involved with the two things that are agreed first (with the blessings of the unions): a hiring freeze and the elimination of overtime.

If the USPS were a private concern and filed for protection under voluntary bankruptcy under chapter 7 you'd normally witness some measure of asset liquidation. (Oops.)
08-21-2020 08:43 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #92
RE: Mail-in voting
(08-21-2020 08:43 AM)MerseyOwl Wrote:  In every corporate re-organisation I've ever been involved with the two things that are agreed first (with the blessings of the unions): a hiring freeze and the elimination of overtime.

Except with auto companies, where the US President circumvents US Bankruptcy law to perform an 'in the normal course of business' sale of all the assets to a company literally owned by the union, and in the process screws over both the concept of secured priority *and* the priority rights of the secured creditors.
(This post was last modified: 08-21-2020 09:41 AM by tanqtonic.)
08-21-2020 09:40 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #93
RE: Mail-in voting
(08-21-2020 09:40 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 08:43 AM)MerseyOwl Wrote:  In every corporate re-organisation I've ever been involved with the two things that are agreed first (with the blessings of the unions): a hiring freeze and the elimination of overtime.

Except with auto companies, where the US President circumvents US Bankruptcy law to perform an 'in the normal course of business' sale of all the assets to a company literally owned by the union, and in the process screws over both the concept of secured priority *and* the priority rights of the secured creditors.

Yes... this was unconscionable.

IMO, it was akin to an 'ex-post-facto' law, where people who bought debt, presuming that they would have priority claims on assets were suddenly and by Presidential order made subordinate to people who should have been 'first loss'.

If you want to 'make whole' a group of investors (the unions) who lost their investment, that's on you/the pension insurance fund. Instead they put it on debt holders.
(This post was last modified: 08-21-2020 11:48 AM by Hambone10.)
08-21-2020 11:47 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #94
RE: Mail-in voting
(08-21-2020 11:47 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 09:40 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 08:43 AM)MerseyOwl Wrote:  In every corporate re-organisation I've ever been involved with the two things that are agreed first (with the blessings of the unions): a hiring freeze and the elimination of overtime.

Except with auto companies, where the US President circumvents US Bankruptcy law to perform an 'in the normal course of business' sale of all the assets to a company literally owned by the union, and in the process screws over both the concept of secured priority *and* the priority rights of the secured creditors.

Yes... this was unconscionable.

IMO, it was akin to an 'ex-post-facto' law, where people who bought debt, presuming that they would have priority claims on assets were suddenly and by Presidential order made subordinate to people who should have been 'first loss'.

If you want to 'make whole' a group of investors (the unions) who lost their investment, that's on you/the pension insurance fund. Instead they put it on debt holders.

Which President was this?
08-21-2020 11:53 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #95
RE: Mail-in voting
(08-21-2020 11:53 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 11:47 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 09:40 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 08:43 AM)MerseyOwl Wrote:  In every corporate re-organisation I've ever been involved with the two things that are agreed first (with the blessings of the unions): a hiring freeze and the elimination of overtime.

Except with auto companies, where the US President circumvents US Bankruptcy law to perform an 'in the normal course of business' sale of all the assets to a company literally owned by the union, and in the process screws over both the concept of secured priority *and* the priority rights of the secured creditors.

Yes... this was unconscionable.

IMO, it was akin to an 'ex-post-facto' law, where people who bought debt, presuming that they would have priority claims on assets were suddenly and by Presidential order made subordinate to people who should have been 'first loss'.

If you want to 'make whole' a group of investors (the unions) who lost their investment, that's on you/the pension insurance fund. Instead they put it on debt holders.

Which President was this?

Hard for me to be specific. This was late 2008 early 2009. Bush, Obama AND McCain all were involved if you recall and I don't remember specifically when it happened or who approved it. Tanq may.

I remember when the stock was trading at a lower valuation than the debt because people were taking their losses/licking their wounds and making the swap... which means that some of the people getting bailed out were pure speculators.
(This post was last modified: 08-21-2020 12:48 PM by Hambone10.)
08-21-2020 12:47 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #96
RE: Mail-in voting
(08-21-2020 12:47 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 11:53 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 11:47 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 09:40 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 08:43 AM)MerseyOwl Wrote:  In every corporate re-organisation I've ever been involved with the two things that are agreed first (with the blessings of the unions): a hiring freeze and the elimination of overtime.

Except with auto companies, where the US President circumvents US Bankruptcy law to perform an 'in the normal course of business' sale of all the assets to a company literally owned by the union, and in the process screws over both the concept of secured priority *and* the priority rights of the secured creditors.

Yes... this was unconscionable.

IMO, it was akin to an 'ex-post-facto' law, where people who bought debt, presuming that they would have priority claims on assets were suddenly and by Presidential order made subordinate to people who should have been 'first loss'.

If you want to 'make whole' a group of investors (the unions) who lost their investment, that's on you/the pension insurance fund. Instead they put it on debt holders.

Which President was this?

Hard for me to be specific. This was late 2008 early 2009. Bush, Obama AND McCain all were involved if you recall and I don't remember specifically when it happened or who approved it. Tanq may.

I remember when the stock was trading at a lower valuation than the debt because people were taking their losses/licking their wounds and making the swap... which means that some of the people getting bailed out were pure speculators.

I don't recall. I guess I have a bad case of Bidenitis, without the team to tell me what happened.
08-21-2020 02:45 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #97
RE: Mail-in voting
(08-21-2020 12:47 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 11:53 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 11:47 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 09:40 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 08:43 AM)MerseyOwl Wrote:  In every corporate re-organisation I've ever been involved with the two things that are agreed first (with the blessings of the unions): a hiring freeze and the elimination of overtime.

Except with auto companies, where the US President circumvents US Bankruptcy law to perform an 'in the normal course of business' sale of all the assets to a company literally owned by the union, and in the process screws over both the concept of secured priority *and* the priority rights of the secured creditors.

Yes... this was unconscionable.

IMO, it was akin to an 'ex-post-facto' law, where people who bought debt, presuming that they would have priority claims on assets were suddenly and by Presidential order made subordinate to people who should have been 'first loss'.

If you want to 'make whole' a group of investors (the unions) who lost their investment, that's on you/the pension insurance fund. Instead they put it on debt holders.

Which President was this?

Hard for me to be specific. This was late 2008 early 2009. Bush, Obama AND McCain all were involved if you recall and I don't remember specifically when it happened or who approved it. Tanq may.

I remember when the stock was trading at a lower valuation than the debt because people were taking their losses/licking their wounds and making the swap... which means that some of the people getting bailed out were pure speculators.


That bankruptcy plan was the product of and rammed through by Obama. No overlap. The crash came in last month of the election. That bankruptcy action was all post Obama inauguration.

The ripple effect on private money debt offerings pretty much froze both bank big debt and private fund big debt availability to zero. And on top of it that s-bucket made what had been automatic rollovers of financing go to the Ice Age. All at a time when any idiot could tell you that what was needed most for a healthy recovery was access to credit -- not glaciers of monies.

I hope Obamas payoff to the unions was worth it; it seems ghat over the next 8 years ot wasnt enough to offset the middle finger union workers gave Hillary and the Dems in general.
(This post was last modified: 08-21-2020 03:12 PM by tanqtonic.)
08-21-2020 03:03 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #98
RE: Mail-in voting
(08-21-2020 03:03 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 12:47 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 11:53 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 11:47 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 09:40 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Except with auto companies, where the US President circumvents US Bankruptcy law to perform an 'in the normal course of business' sale of all the assets to a company literally owned by the union, and in the process screws over both the concept of secured priority *and* the priority rights of the secured creditors.

Yes... this was unconscionable.

IMO, it was akin to an 'ex-post-facto' law, where people who bought debt, presuming that they would have priority claims on assets were suddenly and by Presidential order made subordinate to people who should have been 'first loss'.

If you want to 'make whole' a group of investors (the unions) who lost their investment, that's on you/the pension insurance fund. Instead they put it on debt holders.

Which President was this?

Hard for me to be specific. This was late 2008 early 2009. Bush, Obama AND McCain all were involved if you recall and I don't remember specifically when it happened or who approved it. Tanq may.

I remember when the stock was trading at a lower valuation than the debt because people were taking their losses/licking their wounds and making the swap... which means that some of the people getting bailed out were pure speculators.


That bankruptcy plan was the product of and rammed through by Obama. No overlap.
That's what I thought. yet we have endured 4 years of Trump being accused of putting money in the pockets of his rich friends, and 8 year sof GWB before him.

I guess it is just a generic accusation they level at any Republican.
(This post was last modified: 08-21-2020 03:16 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
08-21-2020 03:13 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #99
RE: Mail-in voting
(08-21-2020 03:13 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 03:03 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 12:47 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 11:53 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(08-21-2020 11:47 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Yes... this was unconscionable.

IMO, it was akin to an 'ex-post-facto' law, where people who bought debt, presuming that they would have priority claims on assets were suddenly and by Presidential order made subordinate to people who should have been 'first loss'.

If you want to 'make whole' a group of investors (the unions) who lost their investment, that's on you/the pension insurance fund. Instead they put it on debt holders.

Which President was this?

Hard for me to be specific. This was late 2008 early 2009. Bush, Obama AND McCain all were involved if you recall and I don't remember specifically when it happened or who approved it. Tanq may.

I remember when the stock was trading at a lower valuation than the debt because people were taking their losses/licking their wounds and making the swap... which means that some of the people getting bailed out were pure speculators.


That bankruptcy plan was the product of and rammed through by Obama. No overlap.
That's what I thought. yet we have endured 4 years of Trump being accused of putting money in the pockets of his rich friends, and 8 year of GWB before him.

I guess it is just a generic accusation they level at any Republican.

Not just the direct payoff. I edited to add the secondary screw it had on a recovery to that post.
08-21-2020 03:17 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #100
RE: Mail-in voting
I'll be honest... that was an extremely painful time in my life... and I still suffer some effects. I don't remember dates well during that period. As far as I'm concerned, it was almost all of them. If they didn't stop it... if they didn't tell the people the truth... they have SOME blame

I made very solid money doing very clean business with people that I'd looked out for (and who looked out for me) for a very long time. The markets had gotten very aggressive with 'junk' and I was still able to make a respectable living without selling my customers 'junk'. When the markets collapsed, there was nothing for me to sell anymore, but I was okay because I knew that my customers hadn't been hurt... and that when the 'junk' repriced to its appropriate value, my customers would have the liquidity to purchase them at the appropriate prices and I would 'get well'.

In comes the government and they change all sorts of rules... NOT to help depositors, which they could have done by simply guaranteeing deposits through the FDIC and electronic transfers of funds like is supposed to happen, but instead by propping up the companies and THEIR investors. This whole 'we're keeping people from being foreclosed' was a scam. No they weren't. The problem for the markets was that Countrywide (and everyone else) would loan out $1byn at 7%... and then borrow 980mm of that from investors at 3%. That's a HUGE return (Do the math on the leverage). Investors decided that they wanted more than 2% equity for some of those securities... and that SOME of them (very small portions) were actually close to worthless.

The government didn't need to cover $1byn in loans. 900+mm of those were fully secured by borrowers easily capable of making their payments... and while the other <100mm may not have been worth <100mm, those homes and properties were worth 'something'. The RISK was a relatively small portion of <100mm, like perhaps 30-40mm on that $1byn in securities. Using the 1929 depression figures, the number would have been around 60mm.

They made FORTUNES for wealthy investors who caused the problem and shady brokers who sold them the crap.
(This post was last modified: 08-21-2020 03:37 PM by Hambone10.)
08-21-2020 03:34 PM
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