The unofficial online home for fans of the Old Dominion University Monarchs. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

(12-23-2019 01:06 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  

(12-23-2019 12:52 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Someone is stuck in a different decade.

No, I just have a lot more experience regarding ODU basketball to draw from than you do. I've seen the program go through low points such as we are currently witnessing only to rise back up to a level of high success. What is acceptable to you isn't so acceptable to those of us who have been through better - a lot better. We don't settle for status quo just because of your "times have changed" mindset, nor do we buy into your arguments supporting that stance.

+1

(12-23-2019 12:52 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Someone is stuck in a different decade.

Did you attend Old Dominion University?

(12-23-2019 01:01 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  

(12-23-2019 11:31 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(12-23-2019 11:17 AM)odufansam Wrote:  

(12-23-2019 11:08 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(12-23-2019 10:44 AM)odufansam Wrote:  There's always going to be excuses. ODU doesn't need 4 - 5 star kids to be successful. There's still a lot of talent out there.

There are no excuses. ODU has the structure to compete within CUSA for a tourney bid (which they've done).

Outside of the first year from Jones and this year, we have competed strongly within the conference for the chance to get to the NCAA tourney. There has only been 2 years were we were not a strong contender to go the dance. When based on the conference you are in forces your entire season to depend on a 3 game stretch, you are at the mercy of small sample size fluctuations.

This season has been a disappointing rebuilding year. We can go in striving to compete for national titles. Unfortunately, it's not going to happen. I can certainly want to strive to be a top 50 program every year, we probably don't have the resources for that.

My counter argument would be last year was the first year Jeff Jones was able to beat Middle Tennessee. It was also his first time in the CUSA championship game without Trey Freeman. Were we ever serious contenders when there's a team in the conference he couldn't beat? Last year we benefited from a weaker conference. MT fell off a cliff.

Im not sure the performance vs. one team means anything. What does that mean?

Our 2015 and 2018 teams were the best teams ODU has had. As much as they were fortunate last year, they were unfortunate some in previous years.

We had the best team in CUSA in 2015 (~70) and lost to MTSU in a game were we didn't didn't play well, which happens in 1 game scenarios. (Made a strong run in the NIT) That team was in the discussion for an at large bid.

We had the best team in CUSA in 2016 (~100) and lost in a close game in the conference tourney.

We had the 3rd best team in CUSA as MTSU was clearly stacked and the cream of the crop (~120 ranking)

We had the 3rd best team in CUSA in 2018 despite this being the best team we have had an awhile and the best team we've had under Jones. WKY and MTSU were both top 50 teams and we lost to a better WKY team.

We had the best team in CUSA in 2019 (113) as the conference was weak. Won the tourney obviously.

Through the last 5 seasons prior to this year, we have had the highest rated CUSA team in 3 out of the 5 years and 3rd in the other 2 years (despite one of those being our best team).

After reading that glowing report of how strong ODU's basketball team has been in CUSA since 2015, I'm left with the feeling that they may well be the tallest midget in the conference. ~70, 113, and ~120 used to be considered less than successful seasons for ODU, especially the 113 and 120 ratings. Now apparently they are to be considered a strong showing by the team. We truly are in the era where everyone gets a pat on the back and a trophy.

Here are our final Ken Pom rankings in the last 22 years in order:

37 (BT)
48 (BT)
64 (BT)
64 (JJ)
67 (BT)
70 (JJ)
73 (BT)
93 (BT)
100 (Capel)
100 (JJ)
101 (BT)
106 (Capel)
111 (BT)
113 (JJ)
118 (BT)
120 (JJ)
147 (Capel)
162 (BT)
164 (BT)
171 (Capel)
175 (JJ)
175 (JJ)
181 (Capel)
276 (BT)

(12-23-2019 01:12 PM)Mo Blue Den You Wrote:  

(12-23-2019 12:52 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Someone is stuck in a different decade.

Did you attend Old Dominion University?

For undergrad, yes.

(12-23-2019 01:04 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(12-23-2019 11:32 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(12-23-2019 11:31 AM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  Jeff hasn't gotten any at large bids during his years at ODU if that is your question, nor has CUSA since ODU has been a member as far as I can remember. Again, in that regard it might as well be the MEAC we are discussing.

How many at large bids has the school had?

Three. 1985 in Paul Webb's last season, 1986 in Tom Young's first season and in 2007 under Blaine.

Blaine had at least 3 and probably 4 at-large teams. The team that needed the at-large was probably the worst of the 4 and the '05-'06 team was up there as well, but lacked consistency (still can't believe Blaine screwed that one up). The quality of our teams has nose-dived. Circumstances are part of it and I'm not claiming it is 100% JJ's fault, but it is what it is. Maybe Blaine was better at spotting talent or maybe he was a better teacher, I don't know. It wasn't like he was exactly blowing up the recruiting circuit and landing 4- and 5-stars. Aside from Dahi, Cooper, Lidonde, and John Morris, they were pretty much all under the radar... and those weren't anywhere close to being his best players.

(12-23-2019 01:31 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(12-23-2019 01:01 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  

(12-23-2019 11:31 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(12-23-2019 11:17 AM)odufansam Wrote:  

(12-23-2019 11:08 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  There are no excuses. ODU has the structure to compete within CUSA for a tourney bid (which they've done).

Outside of the first year from Jones and this year, we have competed strongly within the conference for the chance to get to the NCAA tourney. There has only been 2 years were we were not a strong contender to go the dance. When based on the conference you are in forces your entire season to depend on a 3 game stretch, you are at the mercy of small sample size fluctuations.

This season has been a disappointing rebuilding year. We can go in striving to compete for national titles. Unfortunately, it's not going to happen. I can certainly want to strive to be a top 50 program every year, we probably don't have the resources for that.

My counter argument would be last year was the first year Jeff Jones was able to beat Middle Tennessee. It was also his first time in the CUSA championship game without Trey Freeman. Were we ever serious contenders when there's a team in the conference he couldn't beat? Last year we benefited from a weaker conference. MT fell off a cliff.

Im not sure the performance vs. one team means anything. What does that mean?

Our 2015 and 2018 teams were the best teams ODU has had. As much as they were fortunate last year, they were unfortunate some in previous years.

We had the best team in CUSA in 2015 (~70) and lost to MTSU in a game were we didn't didn't play well, which happens in 1 game scenarios. (Made a strong run in the NIT) That team was in the discussion for an at large bid.

We had the best team in CUSA in 2016 (~100) and lost in a close game in the conference tourney.

We had the 3rd best team in CUSA as MTSU was clearly stacked and the cream of the crop (~120 ranking)

We had the 3rd best team in CUSA in 2018 despite this being the best team we have had an awhile and the best team we've had under Jones. WKY and MTSU were both top 50 teams and we lost to a better WKY team.

We had the best team in CUSA in 2019 (113) as the conference was weak. Won the tourney obviously.

Through the last 5 seasons prior to this year, we have had the highest rated CUSA team in 3 out of the 5 years and 3rd in the other 2 years (despite one of those being our best team).

After reading that glowing report of how strong ODU's basketball team has been in CUSA since 2015, I'm left with the feeling that they may well be the tallest midget in the conference. ~70, 113, and ~120 used to be considered less than successful seasons for ODU, especially the 113 and 120 ratings. Now apparently they are to be considered a strong showing by the team. We truly are in the era where everyone gets a pat on the back and a trophy.

Here are our final Ken Pom rankings in the last 22 years in order:

37 (BT)
48 (BT)
64 (BT)
64 (JJ)
67 (BT)
70 (JJ)
73 (BT)
93 (BT)
100 (Capel)
100 (JJ)
101 (BT)
106 (Capel)
111 (BT)
113 (JJ)
118 (BT)
120 (JJ)
147 (Capel)
162 (BT)
164 (BT)
171 (Capel)
175 (JJ)
175 (JJ)
181 (Capel)
276 (BT)

During that brief period of time Blaine was obviously superior.

Finishing below 100 is not something to be proud of. We should be 99 or higher most seasons. Maybe Wood just has low expectations and doesn’t understand the potential and history at ODU. This is about as low as the program has been since joining D1. Still holding out hope for a turnaround next season.

This tread has gone a little sideways, so I’ll add to its tilt. Blaine was an exceptional/legendary coach before he imploded; JJ is just a good coach, and we can do better. I appreciate the work by JJ, but he clearly is not going to take us to the next level. The question is whether there is another Blaine out there for us to hire.

(12-20-2019 02:23 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(12-20-2019 12:50 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(12-20-2019 12:48 PM)CalODUFan Wrote:  I am afraid the basketball program needs the same reboot as we just did with football.

That would be an overreaction. There are some talented young players on the roster. They will get better over time. This opens up 2 schollys that we can better use.

Dickens was a no brainer (cant turn down a 4 star big man that wants to transfer here), but it just didn't work out. On or off the court.

You can't be perfect in selecting players. Some would rather make excuses and jump ship.

I agree (somewhat). This is JJ's problem and he has earned the right to attempt to fix it. Not time for a reboot yet. 2 years of this and we can talk. I don't like the way he manages his rosters or succession plans, but it has worked moderately well thus far (until this year). I guess he will have no choice but to order a box of Band-Aids (transfer portal) cause we don't have jack otherwise.

1 ncaa birth in 8 years isn’t earning sh.t at a program like ours.

He needs to go he hasn’t even done the bare minimum to keep his job, he has been an abject failure and the constant transfers show a total lack of control.

(12-20-2019 07:35 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(12-20-2019 06:09 PM)Obiwan Wrote:  

(12-20-2019 04:43 PM)ODU2003 Wrote:  About 2 years ago UAB caught fire during the conference portion of the schedule. Without trying to be too pollyanna, I think this team has the potential to do that. If those guys weren't dedicated or happy or whatever, rip off the band-aid. There is enough talent on this team that we can be competitive.

Exactly - our typical fans complain no matter what .. this gives them more to talk about over a cup of egg nog

Some never complain. They are like Baghdad Bob. Everything is fine. Nothing to see here.

We just lost 2 starters mid season. No matter the reason, that is not fine.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

They are absolutely pathetic non fans.

Trying to act as though losing 2 starters mid season when we are 4-9 and look like total dog crap with no help at all anywhere on the horizon is so laughable it merits never taking their opinion seriously again.

This is melt down territory, we have no top recruits coming in, we haven’t had any top recruits in a while and the ones we did get appear to be vastly overrated by the same “fans” saying this is now a good thing for us.

This program is in as bad of shape as it was when Blaine was in a full blown meltdown and we are being told not to worry

They’ve lost what tiny bit of credibility they have had.

1 ncaa beat down by Purdue in 8 years isn’t enough to give him the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this.

Also with his health problems, it seems like the best thing to do for everyone if we go in a different direction and allow him to rest and get treatment.

But this is not even remotely acceptable at a program of our stature and capability

Period.

(12-21-2019 09:23 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(12-21-2019 09:09 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(12-20-2019 09:51 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Def not near the worst.

No? Care to elaborate?

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Jeff Capels best teams weren't even top 100 teams.

We've had 2 years around top 65 and another year at even 100 and thats not including last years teams which was not one of our best but won the conference tourney.

There is obviously room for growth and this year is not good, we aren't far off from what we've been in the past.

Just for a comparison but not saying either is better or worse:

Blaines first 6 years:

164
162
101
73
67
64

Jones first 6 years:
175
70
100
120
64
113

Blaines first 6 years improved and then he dipped down for 2 years in 08 *118) and 09 (93) before having the 2 great teams everyone seems to remember Blaine by 10 (37) and 11 (48) before rebuilding in 2012 and falling apart in 2013.

Capels teams for reference:

100
171
106
181
147

Capel shouldn't even be in the discussion, his tenure was not acceptable and far worse than anyone else. Youngs were obviously bad as well.

Just curious, what are your expectations from our team...what level of consistency? Top 25, 50, 75, 100, 125?

Capel didn’t have the Ted constant center and a practice facility, not even close to apples to apples.

And you conveniently left off Blaine’s two best years.

Your comparisons are as absurd as your logic.

(12-21-2019 09:44 AM)VB Monarch Wrote:  This is just my perception. BT felt like he was building momentum and the program was ascending, it was moving. Obviously before he imploded.
JJ doesn't have that same feel. He is simply a slightly above average coach who is not really developing any momentum. He's just hanging on. His recruiting is suspect and his defense at all cost style does not lend itself to exciting basketball.

I want a program that can hover around the top 50 most years. Some a little better, some a little less. BT felt like he was doing this.

JJ turned out to be my exact nightmare of who I thought and he would be and what I said he was all along.

Not bad enough to get fired, not good enough to get us anywhere near true relevancy like what vcu has.

He makes the chimps in our fanbase happy because they can point at the shiny win totals and throw feces but anyone with an ounce of intellectual integrity knows those win totals are hollow and he is just treading in a sea of mediocrity and now things are getting worse.

(12-22-2019 06:05 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  

(12-22-2019 05:58 PM)Mr.BigBlue Wrote:  

(12-20-2019 09:15 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Not too different than this. I would be fine if we found a great coach. I think we have a solid, too 100 program. I think Jones is not the best coach but a really good one for our level. We have a better shot at hiring a worse coach than a better coach than him if we were hiring. If that means leas than optimal offense and good defense/slow tempo....so be it.

We have one of the best coaches/programs in the conference.....maybe the best. Sometimes you fall in love with the “backup QB”.

if that was the case, we would have certainly been to more than 1 NCAA tournament under his tenure. Rose colored glasses again..... Facts speak otherwise.

How many of those other coaches played in a 14 team league spread over the entire country? With no rivals in conference. Are those not facts? Just your facts matter I guess....Ok just checking. U just choose not to acknowledge that this is Mickey Mouse land we now play in?

How many of them had the constant center and a practice facility on campus?

Ok then.

(12-22-2019 09:27 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(12-22-2019 04:46 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  

(12-20-2019 09:15 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  I would be fine if we found a great coach. I think we have a solid, too 100 program. I think Jones is not the best coach but a really good one for our level. We have a better shot at hiring a worse coach than a better coach than him if we were hiring. If that means leas than optimal offense and good defense/slow tempo....so be it.

We have one of the best coaches/programs in the conference.....maybe the best. Sometimes you fall in love with the “backup QB”.

Sonny Allen
Paul Webb
Tom Young
Oliver Pernell
Jeff Capel
Blaine Taylor

Judging by ODU's head coaches over the past 50 years I would say that the odds are in their favor that they would hire a better coach. The ones in bold above were surely better, and Jeff Capel may have been as well. Collectively these coaches covered pretty much every kind of tempo you could imagine playing today.

The first two are from a completely different era.

Jeff Capel has nowhere near the results at ODU as Jones.

I know.....he actually WON an NCAA tourney game lol

(12-22-2019 09:33 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(12-22-2019 08:37 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  

(12-22-2019 07:01 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(12-22-2019 06:05 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  

(12-22-2019 05:58 PM)Mr.BigBlue Wrote:  if that was the case, we would have certainly been to more than 1 NCAA tournament under his tenure. Rose colored glasses again..... Facts speak otherwise.

How many of those other coaches played in a 14 team league spread over the entire country? With no rivals in conference. Are those not facts? Just your facts matter I guess....Ok just checking. U just choose not to acknowledge that this is Mickey Mouse land we now play in?

They played in SIGNIFICANTLY better leagues, where wins were a hell of a lot harder to come by.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

Those were all one bid leagues as well. People let a 3 year period skew their entire perspective of the CAA. The travel alone in this conference drastically evens the playing field. Because of the travel there is zero away game fan bases. Zero fan interest. Zero presence at a conference tournament. No trash talk. No bragging rights. All of it. Complete garbage. These things drastically effect recruiting even if u don’t acknowledge it. Kids families can’t just pack up the car and drive to El Paso or Miami. Everyone’s b-ball program in this conference has gone downhill. Maybe aside from programs that were non existent to begin with such as Marshall or UTSA or Rice. Even those teams just went from complete garbage to slightly garbage. WKU, LT, UTEP, Charlotte all fell off a cliff. ODU has the best conference record since joining. Sorry if I can’t get on board and blame one person for all of these recent woes.

Yes, there was a 2-3 year period where the CAA and Blaine coaches temas were very good. People tend to act like that was the norm.

Wrong.

From 05-07 those teams were excellent and better than anything Jeff has had.

The baze, finney, Hassell and Lee teams were all obviously better as well.

5 teams in a 7 years span that would wipe the floor with anything jones has put on the court

I know you weren’t around back then, but you can ask anyone who was and they’d tell you exactly the same.

Try again.

(12-23-2019 12:39 AM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  

(12-22-2019 09:27 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(12-22-2019 04:46 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  

(12-20-2019 09:15 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  I would be fine if we found a great coach. I think we have a solid, too 100 program. I think Jones is not the best coach but a really good one for our level. We have a better shot at hiring a worse coach than a better coach than him if we were hiring. If that means leas than optimal offense and good defense/slow tempo....so be it.

We have one of the best coaches/programs in the conference.....maybe the best. Sometimes you fall in love with the “backup QB”.

Sonny Allen
Paul Webb
Tom Young
Oliver Pernell
Jeff Capel
Blaine Taylor

Judging by ODU's head coaches over the past 50 years I would say that the odds are in their favor that they would hire a better coach. The ones in bold above were surely better, and Jeff Capel may have been as well. Collectively these coaches covered pretty much every kind of tempo you could imagine playing today.

The first two are from a completely different era.

Jeff Capel has nowhere near the results at ODU as Jones.

Sonny Allen won a national championship while coaching ODU basketball. More than one of the players he recruited at ODU now have their jerseys retired.. Some of ODU's best players ever played for Sonny Allen.

Paul Webb took ODU into Division 1 and was conference mates with the likes of Georgetown, Syracuse, VCU, WKU, UAB, and JMU (when they were REALLY good) during his time at ODU. Several of his teams competed in the Sun Belt - a conference that ROUTINELY got multiple bids even when the NCAA Tournament was limited to 48 teams. UAB advanced to the Elite 8 in '82, VCU received its lowest seed ever (#2 in the West) in '85, in '86 (4 teams - Jacksonville, ODU, UAB, and WKU) all made the NCAA Tournament from the Sun Belt. Yes, I totally agree that it was a VERY different era than what we are witnessing today for ODU. It was a much higher level of talent on the court for ODU as well as for the conference opponents.

Someone help Giles pick up his face please.

And the caa had multiple final 4 teams in it and was a multi bid league

Jones can’t even win a crap league filled with crap teams with the best joke court and recruiting advantages in the league.

There’s no excuse.

(12-23-2019 01:04 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(12-23-2019 11:32 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(12-23-2019 11:31 AM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  Jeff hasn't gotten any at large bids during his years at ODU if that is your question, nor has CUSA since ODU has been a member as far as I can remember. Again, in that regard it might as well be the MEAC we are discussing.

How many at large bids has the school had?

Three. 1985 in Paul Webb's last season, 1986 in Tom Young's first season and in 2007 under Blaine.

They also would have received an at large at least twice under Blaine even though they didn’t need it because they won the conference tourney.

Blaine put together 3 at large worth teams in a 5-6 year span.

That is our goal. That isn’t even close to what vcu has done so its absolutely possible, Jeff just isn’t the guy who can make that happen, end of debate.

(12-23-2019 12:52 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Someone is stuck in a different decade.

Wtf happened between last decade and this decade that made it impossible for us to compete with a bunch of teams that used to be our peers like VCU, Wichita State, Utah State and Butler, and lose ground to programs like W&M, Richmond, and Liberty. I can think of one thing that certainly changed... The coach.

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(12-23-2019 01:06 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  

(12-23-2019 12:52 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Someone is stuck in a different decade.

No, I just have a lot more experience regarding ODU basketball to draw from than you do. I've seen the program go through low points such as we are currently witnessing only to rise back up to a level of high success. What is acceptable to you isn't so acceptable to those of us who have been through better - a lot better. We don't settle for status quo just because of your "times have changed" mindset, nor do we buy into your arguments supporting that stance.

Well said.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

(12-23-2019 09:28 PM)Razor Ramon Monarch Wrote:  

(12-23-2019 12:39 AM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  

(12-22-2019 09:27 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(12-22-2019 04:46 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  

(12-20-2019 09:15 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  I would be fine if we found a great coach. I think we have a solid, too 100 program. I think Jones is not the best coach but a really good one for our level. We have a better shot at hiring a worse coach than a better coach than him if we were hiring. If that means leas than optimal offense and good defense/slow tempo....so be it.

We have one of the best coaches/programs in the conference.....maybe the best. Sometimes you fall in love with the “backup QB”.

Sonny Allen
Paul Webb
Tom Young
Oliver Pernell
Jeff Capel
Blaine Taylor

Judging by ODU's head coaches over the past 50 years I would say that the odds are in their favor that they would hire a better coach. The ones in bold above were surely better, and Jeff Capel may have been as well. Collectively these coaches covered pretty much every kind of tempo you could imagine playing today.

The first two are from a completely different era.

Jeff Capel has nowhere near the results at ODU as Jones.

Sonny Allen won a national championship while coaching ODU basketball. More than one of the players he recruited at ODU now have their jerseys retired.. Some of ODU's best players ever played for Sonny Allen.

Paul Webb took ODU into Division 1 and was conference mates with the likes of Georgetown, Syracuse, VCU, WKU, UAB, and JMU (when they were REALLY good) during his time at ODU. Several of his teams competed in the Sun Belt - a conference that ROUTINELY got multiple bids even when the NCAA Tournament was limited to 48 teams. UAB advanced to the Elite 8 in '82, VCU received its lowest seed ever (#2 in the West) in '85, in '86 (4 teams - Jacksonville, ODU, UAB, and WKU) all made the NCAA Tournament from the Sun Belt. Yes, I totally agree that it was a VERY different era than what we are witnessing today for ODU. It was a much higher level of talent on the court for ODU as well as for the conference opponents.

Someone help Giles pick up his face please.

And the caa had multiple final 4 teams in it and was a multi bid league

Jones can’t even win a crap league filled with crap teams with the best joke court and recruiting advantages in the league.

There’s no excuse.

Exactly...Giles has on Rose colored glasses all the time and facts speak for themselves. After all many saw BW flaws way before the house of cards fell. We should have never been in this position had some people not been asleep at the wheel. Anyone with any knowledge of competitive sports could see the issue with football years ago and could have seen this with basketball as well.