So on the biggest loser of the decade thread I brought up how with the MWC they probably don't get Utah St and San Jose St if they didn't need to go to 12(ok, they definitely don't). Think it deserves it's own thread to discuss....

It's remarkable to think how different the landscape is if that rule had been in place at the start of the decade....

AAC doesn't add ECU/Tulane. And you really wonder if there is a split with the Big East at that point.
CUSA doesn't raid the Sun Belt the way they did.
Sun Belt doesn't add several FCS teams

WAC is probably still around

The C7 still decides to split, especially after Notre Dame departs. Regardless of the basketball quality that was coming in (even without ECU and Tulane), the new "league" was quickly losing its Northeastern-based presence, which would have radically altered the product. MSG was rumored to be pulling the plug on the contract, due to the abundance of teams that were clearly not going to be filling the arena for the tournament. The biggest push for the C7 leaving was learning that their content was more valuable without the football schools than with, and Fox didn't need more football content for the Winter at that time.

Now, Big East Football (AAC) would definitely look different, except I still think ECU gets added (due to football support) and it ends up leaving Tulsa out in the wind. That would make their league look like UConn, Cincinnati, USF, Houston, UCF, SMU, Memphis, Temple, Navy and ECU. They can still add Wichita State as a non-football member for a ten-team, round-robin, conference. Cincinnati would have been bumped to the West, which would have been interesting.

The AAC/Big East split still happens, that was happening once Fox stepped in with a contract that paid the non-football schools well in excess of what they'd get as a portion of an all-sports contract.

The big ripple is that the WAC is probably still around. In this scenario you've got Idaho, NMst, and whichever two schools the MW doesn't pick up keeping the conference around, and they can probably find three or four schools to join them as the smallest FBS conference.

(09-19-2019 08:32 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  The C7 still decides to split, especially after Notre Dame departs. Regardless of the basketball quality that was coming in (even without ECU and Tulane), the new "league" was quickly losing its Northeastern-based presence, which would have radically altered the product. MSG was rumored to be pulling the plug on the contract, due to the abundance of teams that were clearly not going to be filling the arena for the tournament. The biggest push for the C7 leaving was learning that their content was more valuable without the football schools than with, and Fox didn't need more football content for the Winter at that time.

Now, Big East Football (AAC) would definitely look different, except I still think ECU gets added (due to football support) and it ends up leaving Tulsa out in the wind. That would make their league look like UConn, Cincinnati, USF, Houston, UCF, SMU, Memphis, Temple, Navy and ECU. They can still add Wichita State as a non-football member for a ten-team, round-robin, conference. Cincinnati would have been bumped to the West, which would have been interesting.

I don't know that you are right. Going back to after the league had lost Louisville/Rutgers- football had 4 schools(Temple, Cincy, USF, and UConn), along with newbies UCF, Houston, Memphis, and SMU. Navy football only. Might have made more of a push to keep Boise/San Diego State- or add 1 more program....

Just think about this.... how crazy would that league have looked right now?
Temple, Cincy, UCF, Houston, Nova, Marquette, St John's, Seton Hall all made NCAA tourney last year- that's 8 teams
Memphis, Georgetown, Providence made NIT last year
USF and DePaul played in the CBI title series last year

only teams to miss anything- UConn, SMU

(09-19-2019 08:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:32 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  The C7 still decides to split, especially after Notre Dame departs. Regardless of the basketball quality that was coming in (even without ECU and Tulane), the new "league" was quickly losing its Northeastern-based presence, which would have radically altered the product. MSG was rumored to be pulling the plug on the contract, due to the abundance of teams that were clearly not going to be filling the arena for the tournament. The biggest push for the C7 leaving was learning that their content was more valuable without the football schools than with, and Fox didn't need more football content for the Winter at that time.

Now, Big East Football (AAC) would definitely look different, except I still think ECU gets added (due to football support) and it ends up leaving Tulsa out in the wind. That would make their league look like UConn, Cincinnati, USF, Houston, UCF, SMU, Memphis, Temple, Navy and ECU. They can still add Wichita State as a non-football member for a ten-team, round-robin, conference. Cincinnati would have been bumped to the West, which would have been interesting.

I don't know that you are right. Going back to after the league had lost Louisville/Rutgers- football had 4 schools(Temple, Cincy, USF, and UConn), along with newbies UCF, Houston, Memphis, and SMU. Navy football only. Might have made more of a push to keep Boise/San Diego State- or add 1 more program....

Just think about this.... how crazy would that league have looked right now?
Temple, Cincy, UCF, Houston, Nova, Marquette, St John's, Seton Hall all made NCAA tourney last year- that's 8 teams
Memphis, Georgetown, Providence made NIT last year
USF and DePaul played in the CBI title series last year

only teams to miss anything- UConn, SMU

If said programs like Houston, UCF, Houston, Memphis and SMU have trouble attending basketball tournaments in Memphis, Orlando and Hartford, how in the world will they "begin" to start attending ones in New York City? Again, there was a reason MSG was close to pulling the plug on the BET. It was only from the C7 splitting that the BE was able to maintain MSG as its tournament site.

I get that you are looking purely on the W/L records in a single season, but the split was rooted much deeper than that. It was cultural, it was institutional, it was geographical and it was based on past performance and support.

(09-19-2019 08:50 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:32 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  The C7 still decides to split, especially after Notre Dame departs. Regardless of the basketball quality that was coming in (even without ECU and Tulane), the new "league" was quickly losing its Northeastern-based presence, which would have radically altered the product. MSG was rumored to be pulling the plug on the contract, due to the abundance of teams that were clearly not going to be filling the arena for the tournament. The biggest push for the C7 leaving was learning that their content was more valuable without the football schools than with, and Fox didn't need more football content for the Winter at that time.

Now, Big East Football (AAC) would definitely look different, except I still think ECU gets added (due to football support) and it ends up leaving Tulsa out in the wind. That would make their league look like UConn, Cincinnati, USF, Houston, UCF, SMU, Memphis, Temple, Navy and ECU. They can still add Wichita State as a non-football member for a ten-team, round-robin, conference. Cincinnati would have been bumped to the West, which would have been interesting.

I don't know that you are right. Going back to after the league had lost Louisville/Rutgers- football had 4 schools(Temple, Cincy, USF, and UConn), along with newbies UCF, Houston, Memphis, and SMU. Navy football only. Might have made more of a push to keep Boise/San Diego State- or add 1 more program....

Just think about this.... how crazy would that league have looked right now?
Temple, Cincy, UCF, Houston, Nova, Marquette, St John's, Seton Hall all made NCAA tourney last year- that's 8 teams
Memphis, Georgetown, Providence made NIT last year
USF and DePaul played in the CBI title series last year

only teams to miss anything- UConn, SMU

If said programs like Houston, UCF, Houston, Memphis and SMU have trouble attending basketball tournaments in Memphis, Orlando and Hartford, how in the world will they "begin" to start attending ones in New York City? Again, there was a reason MSG was close to pulling the plug on the BET. It was only from the C7 splitting that the BE was able to maintain MSG as its tournament site.

I get that you are looking purely on the W/L records in a single season, but the split was rooted much deeper than that. It was cultural, it was institutional, it was geographical and it was based on past performance and support.

But here's what I'm getting at. w/o the adds of Tulane/ECU- there wouldn't have been that flash point.... There was the thought that they would keep on going- but then when Tulane/ECU was added- that was too much.... That was the spark.

(09-19-2019 08:59 AM)stever20 Wrote:  But here's what I'm getting at. w/o the adds of Tulane/ECU- there wouldn't have been that flash point.... There was the thought that they would keep on going- but then when Tulane/ECU was added- that was too much.... That was the spark.

Still think Fox blows it up with the TV deal well in excess of what they'd otherwise get as non-football members of the pre-split lineup.

(09-19-2019 09:02 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:59 AM)stever20 Wrote:  But here's what I'm getting at. w/o the adds of Tulane/ECU- there wouldn't have been that flash point.... There was the thought that they would keep on going- but then when Tulane/ECU was added- that was too much.... That was the spark.

Still think Fox blows it up with the TV deal well in excess of what they'd otherwise get as non-football members of the pre-split lineup.

don't think it's anywhere near as forgone of a conclusion as you think... Also think they could have gotten a good bit of the league- i mean- you think they wouldn't have minded having games like Memphis/Georgetown, Temple/Georgetown, Cincy/Villanova, etc.? The tv deal didn't have to just go to ESPN.

(09-19-2019 08:19 AM)stever20 Wrote:  So on the biggest loser of the decade thread I brought up how with the MWC they probably don't get Utah St and San Jose St if they didn't need to go to 12(ok, they definitely don't). Think it deserves it's own thread to discuss....

It's remarkable to think how different the landscape is if that rule had been in place at the start of the decade....

AAC doesn't add ECU/Tulane. And you really wonder if there is a split with the Big East at that point.
CUSA doesn't raid the Sun Belt the way they did.
Sun Belt doesn't add several FCS teams

WAC is probably still around

I think you are wrong regarding CUSA.
The magic number was 12 and they went to 14.
The gossip was that the 8 schools left first seemed to be headed to 9 or 10 taking UNT and possibly FIU. Marshall and ECU left out on an island held out for more eastern schools and UAB joined them in blocking expansion. That resulted in getting Charlotte, FIU, and ODU but getting them came at the price of the west demanding some more. 14 came about because it was the only combination that could get six votes.

They lost ECU and Tulane at the same time and still voted to go back to 14 rather than stick at 12 so there was another dynamic at play. I understand replacing Tulsa because 13 is awkward but there was no pressure to replace ECU and Tulane at the time.

(09-19-2019 08:59 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:50 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:32 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  The C7 still decides to split, especially after Notre Dame departs. Regardless of the basketball quality that was coming in (even without ECU and Tulane), the new "league" was quickly losing its Northeastern-based presence, which would have radically altered the product. MSG was rumored to be pulling the plug on the contract, due to the abundance of teams that were clearly not going to be filling the arena for the tournament. The biggest push for the C7 leaving was learning that their content was more valuable without the football schools than with, and Fox didn't need more football content for the Winter at that time.

Now, Big East Football (AAC) would definitely look different, except I still think ECU gets added (due to football support) and it ends up leaving Tulsa out in the wind. That would make their league look like UConn, Cincinnati, USF, Houston, UCF, SMU, Memphis, Temple, Navy and ECU. They can still add Wichita State as a non-football member for a ten-team, round-robin, conference. Cincinnati would have been bumped to the West, which would have been interesting.

I don't know that you are right. Going back to after the league had lost Louisville/Rutgers- football had 4 schools(Temple, Cincy, USF, and UConn), along with newbies UCF, Houston, Memphis, and SMU. Navy football only. Might have made more of a push to keep Boise/San Diego State- or add 1 more program....

Just think about this.... how crazy would that league have looked right now?
Temple, Cincy, UCF, Houston, Nova, Marquette, St John's, Seton Hall all made NCAA tourney last year- that's 8 teams
Memphis, Georgetown, Providence made NIT last year
USF and DePaul played in the CBI title series last year

only teams to miss anything- UConn, SMU

If said programs like Houston, UCF, Houston, Memphis and SMU have trouble attending basketball tournaments in Memphis, Orlando and Hartford, how in the world will they "begin" to start attending ones in New York City? Again, there was a reason MSG was close to pulling the plug on the BET. It was only from the C7 splitting that the BE was able to maintain MSG as its tournament site.

I get that you are looking purely on the W/L records in a single season, but the split was rooted much deeper than that. It was cultural, it was institutional, it was geographical and it was based on past performance and support.

But here's what I'm getting at. w/o the adds of Tulane/ECU- there wouldn't have been that flash point.... There was the thought that they would keep on going- but then when Tulane/ECU was added- that was too much.... That was the spark.

The spark was Syracuse and Pittsburgh going to the ACC, that started the Big East, as we then knew it, on a collision course for separation. Maryland and Rutgers getting the invite to the B1G, that led to Notre Dame and Louisville both leaving, was simply the final nail in the coffin.

The C7 didn't leave because of just ECU/Tulane; they left like all the other members left - they found greater value elsewhere. The reality was that after the losses of Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Rutgers, Notre Dame and Louisville, there was no school or brand that could recoup all of that lost value. The league was moving further and further away from its Northeast-based roots as a basketball-focused league, and the football-driven aspirations were literally killing what value was left of the conference. Foolishly, the (then) members were being sold on how the media markets of new members would easily replace that lost value. Not only was that foolish, it was a blatant lie (as evidenced by the finished contract values).

(09-19-2019 09:07 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 09:02 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:59 AM)stever20 Wrote:  But here's what I'm getting at. w/o the adds of Tulane/ECU- there wouldn't have been that flash point.... There was the thought that they would keep on going- but then when Tulane/ECU was added- that was too much.... That was the spark.

Still think Fox blows it up with the TV deal well in excess of what they'd otherwise get as non-football members of the pre-split lineup.

don't think it's anywhere near as forgone of a conclusion as you think... Also think they could have gotten a good bit of the league- i mean- you think they wouldn't have minded having games like Memphis/Georgetown, Temple/Georgetown, Cincy/Villanova, etc.? The tv deal didn't have to just go to ESPN.

To keep the basketball schools whole the football schools would have needed to secure something like $15-20 million per year per school, depending on how you split it. Just don't see a reason for the C7 to take less money to play teams they're less interested in.

(09-19-2019 09:35 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:59 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:50 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:32 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  The C7 still decides to split, especially after Notre Dame departs. Regardless of the basketball quality that was coming in (even without ECU and Tulane), the new "league" was quickly losing its Northeastern-based presence, which would have radically altered the product. MSG was rumored to be pulling the plug on the contract, due to the abundance of teams that were clearly not going to be filling the arena for the tournament. The biggest push for the C7 leaving was learning that their content was more valuable without the football schools than with, and Fox didn't need more football content for the Winter at that time.

Now, Big East Football (AAC) would definitely look different, except I still think ECU gets added (due to football support) and it ends up leaving Tulsa out in the wind. That would make their league look like UConn, Cincinnati, USF, Houston, UCF, SMU, Memphis, Temple, Navy and ECU. They can still add Wichita State as a non-football member for a ten-team, round-robin, conference. Cincinnati would have been bumped to the West, which would have been interesting.

I don't know that you are right. Going back to after the league had lost Louisville/Rutgers- football had 4 schools(Temple, Cincy, USF, and UConn), along with newbies UCF, Houston, Memphis, and SMU. Navy football only. Might have made more of a push to keep Boise/San Diego State- or add 1 more program....

Just think about this.... how crazy would that league have looked right now?
Temple, Cincy, UCF, Houston, Nova, Marquette, St John's, Seton Hall all made NCAA tourney last year- that's 8 teams
Memphis, Georgetown, Providence made NIT last year
USF and DePaul played in the CBI title series last year

only teams to miss anything- UConn, SMU

If said programs like Houston, UCF, Houston, Memphis and SMU have trouble attending basketball tournaments in Memphis, Orlando and Hartford, how in the world will they "begin" to start attending ones in New York City? Again, there was a reason MSG was close to pulling the plug on the BET. It was only from the C7 splitting that the BE was able to maintain MSG as its tournament site.

I get that you are looking purely on the W/L records in a single season, but the split was rooted much deeper than that. It was cultural, it was institutional, it was geographical and it was based on past performance and support.

But here's what I'm getting at. w/o the adds of Tulane/ECU- there wouldn't have been that flash point.... There was the thought that they would keep on going- but then when Tulane/ECU was added- that was too much.... That was the spark.

The spark was Syracuse and Pittsburgh going to the ACC, that started the Big East, as we then knew it, on a collision course for separation. Maryland and Rutgers getting the invite to the B1G, that led to Notre Dame and Louisville both leaving, was simply the final nail in the coffin.

The C7 didn't leave because of just ECU/Tulane; they left like all the other members left - they found greater value elsewhere. The reality was that after the losses of Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Rutgers, Notre Dame and Louisville, there was no school or brand that could recoup all of that lost value. The league was moving further and further away from its Northeast-based roots as a basketball-focused league, and the football-driven aspirations were literally killing what value was left of the conference. Foolishly, the (then) members were being sold on how the media markets of new members would easily replace that lost value. Not only was that foolish, it was a blatant lie (as evidenced by the finished contract values).

Notre Dame had left before that. Notre Dame left in September of 2012- before Rutgers and Louisville....

(09-19-2019 08:19 AM)stever20 Wrote:  So on the biggest loser of the decade thread I brought up how with the MWC they probably don't get Utah St and San Jose St if they didn't need to go to 12(ok, they definitely don't).

The MWC added USU and SJSU when Boise State and SDSU had signed on to Marinatto's goofy Big East football idea. So the MWC didn't add USU and SJSU to get to 12 football teams, they added them to get to 10. Bringing back Boise and SDSU increased their membership to 12 football teams.

Also, if you want to do a "what if the CCG minimum had always been 10 teams and not 12" hypothetical, then you have to go back to the beginning, start by asking whether the SEC would have invited Arkansas and South Carolina even if they could have just staged a CCG with the 10 teams they already had, and go from there.

(09-19-2019 09:40 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 09:35 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:59 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:50 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:42 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I don't know that you are right. Going back to after the league had lost Louisville/Rutgers- football had 4 schools(Temple, Cincy, USF, and UConn), along with newbies UCF, Houston, Memphis, and SMU. Navy football only. Might have made more of a push to keep Boise/San Diego State- or add 1 more program....

Just think about this.... how crazy would that league have looked right now?
Temple, Cincy, UCF, Houston, Nova, Marquette, St John's, Seton Hall all made NCAA tourney last year- that's 8 teams
Memphis, Georgetown, Providence made NIT last year
USF and DePaul played in the CBI title series last year

only teams to miss anything- UConn, SMU

If said programs like Houston, UCF, Houston, Memphis and SMU have trouble attending basketball tournaments in Memphis, Orlando and Hartford, how in the world will they "begin" to start attending ones in New York City? Again, there was a reason MSG was close to pulling the plug on the BET. It was only from the C7 splitting that the BE was able to maintain MSG as its tournament site.

I get that you are looking purely on the W/L records in a single season, but the split was rooted much deeper than that. It was cultural, it was institutional, it was geographical and it was based on past performance and support.

But here's what I'm getting at. w/o the adds of Tulane/ECU- there wouldn't have been that flash point.... There was the thought that they would keep on going- but then when Tulane/ECU was added- that was too much.... That was the spark.

The spark was Syracuse and Pittsburgh going to the ACC, that started the Big East, as we then knew it, on a collision course for separation. Maryland and Rutgers getting the invite to the B1G, that led to Notre Dame and Louisville both leaving, was simply the final nail in the coffin.

The C7 didn't leave because of just ECU/Tulane; they left like all the other members left - they found greater value elsewhere. The reality was that after the losses of Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Rutgers, Notre Dame and Louisville, there was no school or brand that could recoup all of that lost value. The league was moving further and further away from its Northeast-based roots as a basketball-focused league, and the football-driven aspirations were literally killing what value was left of the conference. Foolishly, the (then) members were being sold on how the media markets of new members would easily replace that lost value. Not only was that foolish, it was a blatant lie (as evidenced by the finished contract values).

Notre Dame had left before that. Notre Dame left in September of 2012- before Rutgers and Louisville....

My original point still stands.

(09-19-2019 08:59 AM)stever20 Wrote:  But here's what I'm getting at. w/o the adds of Tulane/ECU- there wouldn't have been that flash point.... There was the thought that they would keep on going- but then when Tulane/ECU was added- that was too much.... That was the spark.

It wasn't that Tulane was added. It was that Louisville was leaving, on top of Syracuse and Notre Dame / West Virginia / Pitt (although those were balanced by Temple and Memphis). At that point, the balance of basketball power within the Big East shifted from the "football side" being better, to at worst the two sides being equal.

Combined with the evaporation of the false certainty that the New Big East was going to get a billion dollar TV contract from somebody somewhere somehow.

The New Big East hybrid was bound together by the insanity of a basketball group leaving UConn and Louisville, and by a pot of gold at the end of the Aresco TV rainbow. Once those two cords snapped, it was over.

The Tulane/ECU adds weren't even driven by the 12-team CCG rule so much as the leadership being hellbound to have a CCG in the year or two before Navy and TBA came on board.

(09-19-2019 09:07 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:19 AM)stever20 Wrote:  So on the biggest loser of the decade thread I brought up how with the MWC they probably don't get Utah St and San Jose St if they didn't need to go to 12(ok, they definitely don't). Think it deserves it's own thread to discuss....

It's remarkable to think how different the landscape is if that rule had been in place at the start of the decade....

AAC doesn't add ECU/Tulane. And you really wonder if there is a split with the Big East at that point.
CUSA doesn't raid the Sun Belt the way they did.
Sun Belt doesn't add several FCS teams

WAC is probably still around

I think you are wrong regarding CUSA.
The magic number was 12 and they went to 14.
The gossip was that the 8 schools left first seemed to be headed to 9 or 10 taking UNT and possibly FIU. Marshall and ECU left out on an island held out for more eastern schools and UAB joined them in blocking expansion. That resulted in getting Charlotte, FIU, and ODU but getting them came at the price of the west demanding some more. 14 came about because it was the only combination that could get six votes.

They lost ECU and Tulane at the same time and still voted to go back to 14 rather than stick at 12 so there was another dynamic at play. I understand replacing Tulsa because 13 is awkward but there was no pressure to replace ECU and Tulane at the time.

There was a strong current of thinking that having more schools, more inventory was valuable in itself.

(09-19-2019 09:52 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:59 AM)stever20 Wrote:  But here's what I'm getting at. w/o the adds of Tulane/ECU- there wouldn't have been that flash point.... There was the thought that they would keep on going- but then when Tulane/ECU was added- that was too much.... That was the spark.

It wasn't that Tulane was added. It was that Louisville was leaving, on top of Syracuse and Notre Dame / West Virginia / Pitt (although those were balanced by Temple and Memphis). At that point, the balance of basketball power within the Big East shifted from the "football side" being better, to at worst the two sides being equal.

Combined with the evaporation of the false certainty that the New Big East was going to get a billion dollar TV contract from somebody somewhere somehow.

The New Big East hybrid was bound together by the insanity of a basketball group leaving UConn and Louisville, and by a pot of gold at the end of the Aresco TV rainbow. Once those two cords snapped, it was over.

The Tulane/ECU adds weren't even driven by the 12-team CCG rule so much as the leadership being hellbound to have a CCG in the year or two before Navy and TBA came on board.

Tulane/ECU was the bridge too far point though.....

(09-19-2019 09:46 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 09:40 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 09:35 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:59 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:50 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  If said programs like Houston, UCF, Houston, Memphis and SMU have trouble attending basketball tournaments in Memphis, Orlando and Hartford, how in the world will they "begin" to start attending ones in New York City? Again, there was a reason MSG was close to pulling the plug on the BET. It was only from the C7 splitting that the BE was able to maintain MSG as its tournament site.

I get that you are looking purely on the W/L records in a single season, but the split was rooted much deeper than that. It was cultural, it was institutional, it was geographical and it was based on past performance and support.

But here's what I'm getting at. w/o the adds of Tulane/ECU- there wouldn't have been that flash point.... There was the thought that they would keep on going- but then when Tulane/ECU was added- that was too much.... That was the spark.

The spark was Syracuse and Pittsburgh going to the ACC, that started the Big East, as we then knew it, on a collision course for separation. Maryland and Rutgers getting the invite to the B1G, that led to Notre Dame and Louisville both leaving, was simply the final nail in the coffin.

The C7 didn't leave because of just ECU/Tulane; they left like all the other members left - they found greater value elsewhere. The reality was that after the losses of Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Rutgers, Notre Dame and Louisville, there was no school or brand that could recoup all of that lost value. The league was moving further and further away from its Northeast-based roots as a basketball-focused league, and the football-driven aspirations were literally killing what value was left of the conference. Foolishly, the (then) members were being sold on how the media markets of new members would easily replace that lost value. Not only was that foolish, it was a blatant lie (as evidenced by the finished contract values).

Notre Dame had left before that. Notre Dame left in September of 2012- before Rutgers and Louisville....

My original point still stands.

Agreed. Once those schools left for the ACC, that's when the C7 started looking for the exits. It's such a gross misnomer to believe the additions of ECU and Tulane were any type of flash point. That is a message board myth that has somehow permeated over the years. If anything, Tulane is actually the closest institutional and cultural fit to the C7 out of anyone that the now-AAC added.

Schools like Syracuse and Notre Dame were the whole reason why the C7 stayed with the hybrid Big East - not only was it the competition on the court, but also the residual power branding of being a BCS AQ conference (despite none of those schools playing FBS football). Once that was gone (and the writing on the wall was that it would be gone when Notre Dame, Syracuse and Pitt all left), then the hybrid served no real purpose for the C7 at that point. All the hybrid created was a league where it was always at the whims of conference realignment for football, which was fine for the C7 when the football Big East was a power conference, but certainly wasn't going to be fine for the C7 in the AAC context.

As with most things in conference realignment, this was about branding, revenue, power and stability *off-the-court/field*, even if people can make an argument that it would have worked out on-the-court/field if the hybrid stayed together.

(09-19-2019 09:46 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 09:40 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 09:35 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:59 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:50 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  If said programs like Houston, UCF, Houston, Memphis and SMU have trouble attending basketball tournaments in Memphis, Orlando and Hartford, how in the world will they "begin" to start attending ones in New York City? Again, there was a reason MSG was close to pulling the plug on the BET. It was only from the C7 splitting that the BE was able to maintain MSG as its tournament site.

I get that you are looking purely on the W/L records in a single season, but the split was rooted much deeper than that. It was cultural, it was institutional, it was geographical and it was based on past performance and support.

But here's what I'm getting at. w/o the adds of Tulane/ECU- there wouldn't have been that flash point.... There was the thought that they would keep on going- but then when Tulane/ECU was added- that was too much.... That was the spark.

The spark was Syracuse and Pittsburgh going to the ACC, that started the Big East, as we then knew it, on a collision course for separation. Maryland and Rutgers getting the invite to the B1G, that led to Notre Dame and Louisville both leaving, was simply the final nail in the coffin.

The C7 didn't leave because of just ECU/Tulane; they left like all the other members left - they found greater value elsewhere. The reality was that after the losses of Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Rutgers, Notre Dame and Louisville, there was no school or brand that could recoup all of that lost value. The league was moving further and further away from its Northeast-based roots as a basketball-focused league, and the football-driven aspirations were literally killing what value was left of the conference. Foolishly, the (then) members were being sold on how the media markets of new members would easily replace that lost value. Not only was that foolish, it was a blatant lie (as evidenced by the finished contract values).

Notre Dame had left before that. Notre Dame left in September of 2012- before Rutgers and Louisville....

My original point still stands.

When Miami and Virginia Tech left, the Big East didn't just backfill with two FBS programs, they added Marquette and DePaul at the same time. The Big East did that because even then, in 2003, they were already planning for the day when the non-FBS members would divorce the FBS members. It was only a question of when that day would arrive.

(09-19-2019 10:01 AM)Wedge Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 09:46 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 09:40 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 09:35 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 08:59 AM)stever20 Wrote:  But here's what I'm getting at. w/o the adds of Tulane/ECU- there wouldn't have been that flash point.... There was the thought that they would keep on going- but then when Tulane/ECU was added- that was too much.... That was the spark.

The spark was Syracuse and Pittsburgh going to the ACC, that started the Big East, as we then knew it, on a collision course for separation. Maryland and Rutgers getting the invite to the B1G, that led to Notre Dame and Louisville both leaving, was simply the final nail in the coffin.

The C7 didn't leave because of just ECU/Tulane; they left like all the other members left - they found greater value elsewhere. The reality was that after the losses of Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Rutgers, Notre Dame and Louisville, there was no school or brand that could recoup all of that lost value. The league was moving further and further away from its Northeast-based roots as a basketball-focused league, and the football-driven aspirations were literally killing what value was left of the conference. Foolishly, the (then) members were being sold on how the media markets of new members would easily replace that lost value. Not only was that foolish, it was a blatant lie (as evidenced by the finished contract values).

Notre Dame had left before that. Notre Dame left in September of 2012- before Rutgers and Louisville....

My original point still stands.

When Miami and Virginia Tech left, the Big East didn't just backfill with two FBS programs, they added Marquette and DePaul at the same time. The Big East did that because even then, in 2003, they were already planning for the day when the non-FBS members would divorce the FBS members. It was only a question of when that day would arrive.

Yup. Recognition of, and planning for, an eventual split goes all the way back to the 90s. It's why UConn left A-10 football in the first place.