(06-26-2019 11:10 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 10:34 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 09:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Maybe this is an example of somebody who feels the righteousness of her beliefs justifies her behavior.

Spitter

Probably not a GOPer

Hopefully the spitter won't be welcomed into the Democratic party like the GOP welcomed this guy. He probably felt righteous enough in his beliefs to use racist language.

https://www.wnyc.org/story/nj-gop-welcom...t-remarks/

"Saudino received "enthusiastic applause" when he addressed the Bergen County Republican Organization meeting Tuesday night, according to the New Jersey Globe, which first reported Saudino's reemergence."


As usual... awful behavior to be found on each side.

Golly, Gee, Gosh, 93, that there are people on each side who feel their righteousness justifies their actions was never at issue. I gave you that in my original post.(7573) Go back and look. My thoughts were, and still are, that the preponderance of such behavior is on the left. If your efforts are trying to prove it is exactly equal, 50-50, I disagree. My efforts are NOT, repeat, NOT, trying to say it is 100% on the left. My thinking is that it is mostly on the left. Telling me a story about a cop here, a sheriff there (is that a pattern of law enforcement?) does zero to make me think it is exactly equal, and I conceded, even in my first post on this matter, that there are some on both sides. I am not sure what war you are fighting. Lad asked me to cite data. Maybe he can cite some that shows it is exactly equal. Until then, I find a cop and sheriff don't offset Antifa and/or the Capitol antiKavanaugh demonstrators or the Occupy Wall St. Movement, or the...well, the list is endless isn't it.

So let's stop fighting this imaginary war. I never said it was all on the left, and i have no idea what you are saying.

When you say most, are you talking 51:49? 60/40? Or like 90:10? There’s a lot of distance between even split and most, and it’s not clear how much you’re putting there.

The Bundy ranch standoff was carried out by right wingers (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff).

The Proud Boys, which are basically the Antifa of the right, and have been involved or instigated multiple instances of violence, are right wingers (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys).

The Charlottesville protests were organized by right wingers, and kicked off with a tiki-torch march full of very impassioned people.

I could keep going - the split would be very close to 55/45 to 45/45, IMO.

(06-26-2019 11:37 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 11:10 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 10:34 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 09:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Maybe this is an example of somebody who feels the righteousness of her beliefs justifies her behavior.

Spitter

Probably not a GOPer

Hopefully the spitter won't be welcomed into the Democratic party like the GOP welcomed this guy. He probably felt righteous enough in his beliefs to use racist language.

https://www.wnyc.org/story/nj-gop-welcom...t-remarks/

"Saudino received "enthusiastic applause" when he addressed the Bergen County Republican Organization meeting Tuesday night, according to the New Jersey Globe, which first reported Saudino's reemergence."


As usual... awful behavior to be found on each side.

Golly, Gee, Gosh, 93, that there are people on each side who feel their righteousness justifies their actions was never at issue. I gave you that in my original post.(7573) Go back and look. My thoughts were, and still are, that the preponderance of such behavior is on the left. If your efforts are trying to prove it is exactly equal, 50-50, I disagree. My efforts are NOT, repeat, NOT, trying to say it is 100% on the left. My thinking is that it is mostly on the left. Telling me a story about a cop here, a sheriff there (is that a pattern of law enforcement?) does zero to make me think it is exactly equal, and I conceded, even in my first post on this matter, that there are some on both sides. I am not sure what war you are fighting. Lad asked me to cite data. Maybe he can cite some that shows it is exactly equal. Until then, I find a cop and sheriff don't offset Antifa and/or the Capitol antiKavanaugh demonstrators or the Occupy Wall St. Movement, or the...well, the list is endless isn't it.

So let's stop fighting this imaginary war. I never said it was all on the left, and i have no idea what you are saying.

I completely agree that this "imaginary war" is silly. I was wondering why you posted yet another of these anecdotal one-off stories of bad behavior from an unknown leftist this morning.

I just felt that she felt that her righteous hatred of all things Trump justified spitting on Trump Jr. Just more anecdotal evidence.

But why are my one-off stories worse than yours?

(06-26-2019 11:38 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 11:10 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 10:34 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 09:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Maybe this is an example of somebody who feels the righteousness of her beliefs justifies her behavior.

Spitter

Probably not a GOPer

Hopefully the spitter won't be welcomed into the Democratic party like the GOP welcomed this guy. He probably felt righteous enough in his beliefs to use racist language.

https://www.wnyc.org/story/nj-gop-welcom...t-remarks/

"Saudino received "enthusiastic applause" when he addressed the Bergen County Republican Organization meeting Tuesday night, according to the New Jersey Globe, which first reported Saudino's reemergence."


As usual... awful behavior to be found on each side.

Golly, Gee, Gosh, 93, that there are people on each side who feel their righteousness justifies their actions was never at issue. I gave you that in my original post.(7573) Go back and look. My thoughts were, and still are, that the preponderance of such behavior is on the left. If your efforts are trying to prove it is exactly equal, 50-50, I disagree. My efforts are NOT, repeat, NOT, trying to say it is 100% on the left. My thinking is that it is mostly on the left. Telling me a story about a cop here, a sheriff there (is that a pattern of law enforcement?) does zero to make me think it is exactly equal, and I conceded, even in my first post on this matter, that there are some on both sides. I am not sure what war you are fighting. Lad asked me to cite data. Maybe he can cite some that shows it is exactly equal. Until then, I find a cop and sheriff don't offset Antifa and/or the Capitol antiKavanaugh demonstrators or the Occupy Wall St. Movement, or the...well, the list is endless isn't it.

So let's stop fighting this imaginary war. I never said it was all on the left, and i have no idea what you are saying.

When you say most, are you talking 51:49? 60/40? Or like 90:10? There’s a lot of distance between even split and most, and it’s not clear how much you’re putting there.

The Bundy ranch standoff was carried out by right wingers (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff).

The Proud Boys, which are basically the Antifa of the right, and have been involved or instigated multiple instances of violence, are right wingers (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys).

The Charlottesville protests were organized by right wingers, and kicked off with a tiki-torch march full of very impassioned people.

I could keep going - the split would be very close to 55/45 to 45/45, IMO.

Just my opinion, but I would say it is about 80/20, perhaps more since Trump came in.

yes, the right wingers in Charlottevile had a peaceful tiki torch parade, as is their right. Even the NBP has that right. Who tried to stop it with violence? Does their parade offend your sense of righteousness? Do you think that justifies the Antifa actions there?

I think both sides are ********. If you want to defend one side over the other, that is your right.

(06-26-2019 12:27 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 11:37 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 11:10 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 10:34 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 09:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Maybe this is an example of somebody who feels the righteousness of her beliefs justifies her behavior.

Spitter

Probably not a GOPer

Hopefully the spitter won't be welcomed into the Democratic party like the GOP welcomed this guy. He probably felt righteous enough in his beliefs to use racist language.

https://www.wnyc.org/story/nj-gop-welcom...t-remarks/

"Saudino received "enthusiastic applause" when he addressed the Bergen County Republican Organization meeting Tuesday night, according to the New Jersey Globe, which first reported Saudino's reemergence."


As usual... awful behavior to be found on each side.

Golly, Gee, Gosh, 93, that there are people on each side who feel their righteousness justifies their actions was never at issue. I gave you that in my original post.(7573) Go back and look. My thoughts were, and still are, that the preponderance of such behavior is on the left. If your efforts are trying to prove it is exactly equal, 50-50, I disagree. My efforts are NOT, repeat, NOT, trying to say it is 100% on the left. My thinking is that it is mostly on the left. Telling me a story about a cop here, a sheriff there (is that a pattern of law enforcement?) does zero to make me think it is exactly equal, and I conceded, even in my first post on this matter, that there are some on both sides. I am not sure what war you are fighting. Lad asked me to cite data. Maybe he can cite some that shows it is exactly equal. Until then, I find a cop and sheriff don't offset Antifa and/or the Capitol antiKavanaugh demonstrators or the Occupy Wall St. Movement, or the...well, the list is endless isn't it.

So let's stop fighting this imaginary war. I never said it was all on the left, and i have no idea what you are saying.

I completely agree that this "imaginary war" is silly. I was wondering why you posted yet another of these anecdotal one-off stories of bad behavior from an unknown leftist this morning.

I just felt that she felt that her righteous hatred of all things Trump justified spitting on Trump Jr. Just more anecdotal evidence.

But why are my one-off stories worse than yours?

They are not worse. They are not better. You were the one who complained about me posting a one-off example. I was just replying to yours.

(06-26-2019 12:35 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 11:38 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 11:10 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 10:34 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 09:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Maybe this is an example of somebody who feels the righteousness of her beliefs justifies her behavior.

Spitter

Probably not a GOPer

Hopefully the spitter won't be welcomed into the Democratic party like the GOP welcomed this guy. He probably felt righteous enough in his beliefs to use racist language.

https://www.wnyc.org/story/nj-gop-welcom...t-remarks/

"Saudino received "enthusiastic applause" when he addressed the Bergen County Republican Organization meeting Tuesday night, according to the New Jersey Globe, which first reported Saudino's reemergence."


As usual... awful behavior to be found on each side.

Golly, Gee, Gosh, 93, that there are people on each side who feel their righteousness justifies their actions was never at issue. I gave you that in my original post.(7573) Go back and look. My thoughts were, and still are, that the preponderance of such behavior is on the left. If your efforts are trying to prove it is exactly equal, 50-50, I disagree. My efforts are NOT, repeat, NOT, trying to say it is 100% on the left. My thinking is that it is mostly on the left. Telling me a story about a cop here, a sheriff there (is that a pattern of law enforcement?) does zero to make me think it is exactly equal, and I conceded, even in my first post on this matter, that there are some on both sides. I am not sure what war you are fighting. Lad asked me to cite data. Maybe he can cite some that shows it is exactly equal. Until then, I find a cop and sheriff don't offset Antifa and/or the Capitol antiKavanaugh demonstrators or the Occupy Wall St. Movement, or the...well, the list is endless isn't it.

So let's stop fighting this imaginary war. I never said it was all on the left, and i have no idea what you are saying.

When you say most, are you talking 51:49? 60/40? Or like 90:10? There’s a lot of distance between even split and most, and it’s not clear how much you’re putting there.

The Bundy ranch standoff was carried out by right wingers (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff).

The Proud Boys, which are basically the Antifa of the right, and have been involved or instigated multiple instances of violence, are right wingers (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys).

The Charlottesville protests were organized by right wingers, and kicked off with a tiki-torch march full of very impassioned people.

I could keep going - the split would be very close to 55/45 to 45/45, IMO.

Just my opinion, but I would say it is about 80/20, perhaps more since Trump came in.

yes, the right wingers in Charlottevile had a peaceful tiki torch parade, as is their right. Even the NBP has that right. Who tried to stop it with violence? Does their parade offend your sense of righteousness? Do you think that justifies the Antifa actions there?

I think both sides are ********. If you want to defend one side over the other, that is your right.

I don't think we are defending one side over the other. It seems to be the right-wingers on this thread who are arguing that one side has moral superiority over the other when it comes to this issue. We are arguing (if I may speak for Lad) that this bad behavior can be found on each side (and making a case for 50/50, 60/40, 75/25 is pretty pointless).

(06-26-2019 12:38 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 12:27 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 11:37 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 11:10 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 10:34 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Hopefully the spitter won't be welcomed into the Democratic party like the GOP welcomed this guy. He probably felt righteous enough in his beliefs to use racist language.

https://www.wnyc.org/story/nj-gop-welcom...t-remarks/

"Saudino received "enthusiastic applause" when he addressed the Bergen County Republican Organization meeting Tuesday night, according to the New Jersey Globe, which first reported Saudino's reemergence."


As usual... awful behavior to be found on each side.

Golly, Gee, Gosh, 93, that there are people on each side who feel their righteousness justifies their actions was never at issue. I gave you that in my original post.(7573) Go back and look. My thoughts were, and still are, that the preponderance of such behavior is on the left. If your efforts are trying to prove it is exactly equal, 50-50, I disagree. My efforts are NOT, repeat, NOT, trying to say it is 100% on the left. My thinking is that it is mostly on the left. Telling me a story about a cop here, a sheriff there (is that a pattern of law enforcement?) does zero to make me think it is exactly equal, and I conceded, even in my first post on this matter, that there are some on both sides. I am not sure what war you are fighting. Lad asked me to cite data. Maybe he can cite some that shows it is exactly equal. Until then, I find a cop and sheriff don't offset Antifa and/or the Capitol antiKavanaugh demonstrators or the Occupy Wall St. Movement, or the...well, the list is endless isn't it.

So let's stop fighting this imaginary war. I never said it was all on the left, and i have no idea what you are saying.

I completely agree that this "imaginary war" is silly. I was wondering why you posted yet another of these anecdotal one-off stories of bad behavior from an unknown leftist this morning.

I just felt that she felt that her righteous hatred of all things Trump justified spitting on Trump Jr. Just more anecdotal evidence.

But why are my one-off stories worse than yours?

They are not worse. They are not better. You were the one who complained about me posting a one-off example. I was just replying to yours.

No, I was complaining that you wer implying that a lone cop and and a lone sheriff offset the multitudes of examples from the left.

Not just antifa, but the people shaming and forcing people to leave to restaurants. They feel the righteousness of their cause entitles them to do bad things.

In any case, I wonder that you and Lad are not proud of your friends for doing things like that for the cause of right-thinking. Is not Acting Up for good causes a part of the left wing tradition? Go ahead, and spit on them, or chant so they cannot eat a meal in peace, of light a dumpster fire, whatever, as it is in a good cause. I would think you guys would be proud, instead you are basically saying everybody does it.

You guys come to my town, and not only will I not spit on you or in your food, not only will I allow you to eat in peace, not only will not threaten your person or property, but I will oppose any who do. But I would not expect any of that behavior around here. We are mostly right wing.

Here is what I don't understand.

Conservatives disavow the alt-right, but still get branded with it, no matter how hard they disavow.

Liberals embrace antifa, but then make some half-assed denial, and come out unscathed.

That seems to me to be a very severe double standard.

(06-26-2019 01:07 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 12:38 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 12:27 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 11:37 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 11:10 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Golly, Gee, Gosh, 93, that there are people on each side who feel their righteousness justifies their actions was never at issue. I gave you that in my original post.(7573) Go back and look. My thoughts were, and still are, that the preponderance of such behavior is on the left. If your efforts are trying to prove it is exactly equal, 50-50, I disagree. My efforts are NOT, repeat, NOT, trying to say it is 100% on the left. My thinking is that it is mostly on the left. Telling me a story about a cop here, a sheriff there (is that a pattern of law enforcement?) does zero to make me think it is exactly equal, and I conceded, even in my first post on this matter, that there are some on both sides. I am not sure what war you are fighting. Lad asked me to cite data. Maybe he can cite some that shows it is exactly equal. Until then, I find a cop and sheriff don't offset Antifa and/or the Capitol antiKavanaugh demonstrators or the Occupy Wall St. Movement, or the...well, the list is endless isn't it.

So let's stop fighting this imaginary war. I never said it was all on the left, and i have no idea what you are saying.

I completely agree that this "imaginary war" is silly. I was wondering why you posted yet another of these anecdotal one-off stories of bad behavior from an unknown leftist this morning.

I just felt that she felt that her righteous hatred of all things Trump justified spitting on Trump Jr. Just more anecdotal evidence.

But why are my one-off stories worse than yours?

They are not worse. They are not better. You were the one who complained about me posting a one-off example. I was just replying to yours.

No, I was complaining that you wer implying that a lone cop and and a lone sheriff offset the multitudes of examples from the left.

Not just antifa, but the people shaming and forcing people to leave to restaurants. They feel the righteousness of their cause entitles them to do bad things.

In any case, I wonder that you and Lad are not proud of your friends for doing things like that for the cause of right-thinking. Is not Acting Up for good causes a part of the left wing tradition? Go ahead, and spit on them, or chant so they cannot eat a meal in peace, of light a dumpster fire, whatever, as it is in a good cause. I would think you guys would be proud, instead you are basically saying everybody does it.

You guys come to my town, and not only will I not spit on you or in your food, not only will I allow you to eat in peace, not only will not threaten your person or property, but I will oppose any who do. But I would not expect any of that behavior around here. We are mostly right wing.

I will speak for myself here. I disavow those actions that you referenced. Probably didn't need to be said because I don't think you really believe that I would be proud of them.

(06-26-2019 01:08 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here is what I don't understand.

Conservatives disavow the alt-right, but still get branded with it, no matter how hard they disavow.

Liberals embrace antifa, but then make some half-assed denial, and come out unscathed.

That seems to me to be a very severe double standard.

"Liberals embrace antifa". Nope.

(06-26-2019 02:15 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 01:07 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 12:38 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 12:27 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 11:37 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  I completely agree that this "imaginary war" is silly. I was wondering why you posted yet another of these anecdotal one-off stories of bad behavior from an unknown leftist this morning.

I just felt that she felt that her righteous hatred of all things Trump justified spitting on Trump Jr. Just more anecdotal evidence.

But why are my one-off stories worse than yours?

They are not worse. They are not better. You were the one who complained about me posting a one-off example. I was just replying to yours.

No, I was complaining that you wer implying that a lone cop and and a lone sheriff offset the multitudes of examples from the left.

Not just antifa, but the people shaming and forcing people to leave to restaurants. They feel the righteousness of their cause entitles them to do bad things.

In any case, I wonder that you and Lad are not proud of your friends for doing things like that for the cause of right-thinking. Is not Acting Up for good causes a part of the left wing tradition? Go ahead, and spit on them, or chant so they cannot eat a meal in peace, of light a dumpster fire, whatever, as it is in a good cause. I would think you guys would be proud, instead you are basically saying everybody does it.

You guys come to my town, and not only will I not spit on you or in your food, not only will I allow you to eat in peace, not only will not threaten your person or property, but I will oppose any who do. But I would not expect any of that behavior around here. We are mostly right wing.

I will speak for myself here. I disavow those actions that you referenced. Probably didn't need to be said because I don't think you really believe that I would be proud of them.

Well, I disavow the cop and the sheriff, and the clinic bombers.

I wonder who will disavow the people in the audience who clapped and cheered when Hillary made her "deplorables' speech?

(06-26-2019 02:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 01:08 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here is what I don't understand.

Conservatives disavow the alt-right, but still get branded with it, no matter how hard they disavow.

Liberals embrace antifa, but then make some half-assed denial, and come out unscathed.

That seems to me to be a very severe double standard.

"Liberals embrace antifa". Nope.

Not necessarily embrace. But there are some posters even here that have opined that Antifa clubbing the crap out of the Proud Boys *is* better than the Proud Boys clubbing the crap out of Antifa in the moral sense.

I will agree that it is not 'embrac[ing]'. But that stance is definitely *not* an 'equally atrocious' standard, you have to agree.

So while liberals dont 'embrace' antifa, it sure seems that they are more prone to justify antifa violence when compared to the alt-right, and distinguish antifa violence
as at least more morally acceptable with that same comparison.

(06-26-2019 02:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 01:08 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here is what I don't understand.

Conservatives disavow the alt-right, but still get branded with it, no matter how hard they disavow.

Liberals embrace antifa, but then make some half-assed denial, and come out unscathed.

That seems to me to be a very severe double standard.

"Liberals embrace antifa". Nope.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/c...story.html

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=lib...&FORM=VIRE

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/...rfect.html

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/40169...e-of-right

Just google Antifa defense.

(06-26-2019 03:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 02:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 01:08 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here is what I don't understand.

Conservatives disavow the alt-right, but still get branded with it, no matter how hard they disavow.

Liberals embrace antifa, but then make some half-assed denial, and come out unscathed.

That seems to me to be a very severe double standard.

"Liberals embrace antifa". Nope.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/c...story.html

The Author is Albert Eisenberg (the former communications director for the Philadelphia Republican Party). I'll read it tonight but maybe biased?

Quote:https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=lib...&FORM=VIRE

The Berkeley organizers of the counter-protest are defending the actions of the antifa in this video. I wouldn't think that the "Berkeley organizers of counter-protest" people are probably mainstream liberals however I'll also watch the video later.

(06-26-2019 03:20 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 03:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 02:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 01:08 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here is what I don't understand.

Conservatives disavow the alt-right, but still get branded with it, no matter how hard they disavow.

Liberals embrace antifa, but then make some half-assed denial, and come out unscathed.

That seems to me to be a very severe double standard.

"Liberals embrace antifa". Nope.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/c...story.html

The Author is Albert Eisenberg (the former communications director for the Philadelphia Republican Party). I'll read it tonight but maybe biased?

Quote:https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=lib...&FORM=VIRE

The Berkeley organizers of the counter-protest are defending the actions of the antifa in this video. I wouldn't think that the "Berkeley organizers of counter-protest" people are probably mainstream liberals however I'll also watch the video later.

Okey-dokey.

Don't forget the others I added via edit.

(06-23-2019 06:42 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  I believe her because I watched her testimony. Did you?

I did watch her, as much as I could stand. I thought she was whiny and evasive.

(06-26-2019 03:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 02:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 01:08 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here is what I don't understand.

Conservatives disavow the alt-right, but still get branded with it, no matter how hard they disavow.

Liberals embrace antifa, but then make some half-assed denial, and come out unscathed.

That seems to me to be a very severe double standard.

"Liberals embrace antifa". Nope.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/c...-story.htm

Nothing here to suggest that mainstream liberals embrace antifa.

Quote:https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=lib...&FORM=VIRE

Nothing here either to suggest that liberals embrace antifa. It's a quick clip with coverage of the clash between far-right groups and antifa. Nothing here that suggests that one side or the other started the violence first. The last speaker (Berkeley leader of an anti-police violence group) suggests that he wasn't sorry about the way the alt-right left the city. Not a lot of context here.

Quote:https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/...rfect.html

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/40169...e-of-right

Certainly Lemon are Cuomo are more in line with "mainstream" liberals than the Berkeley examples. I watched both clips. Both made the argument that, if choosing sides, that the anti-fascists had the moral high-ground over the fascists in their skirmish. Nothing to suggest that they supported unprovoked violence against the far right. It seems that unprovoked violence from antifa is what is mainly bothering you guys? A peaceful counterprotest is fine, right? Again, not a lot of meat here and still a far cry from proof that liberals "embrace" antifa.

I have a feeling that the vast majority of liberals would say that they condemn unprovoked violence from antifa against the groups that they oppose. Do you think differently?

(06-26-2019 07:03 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 03:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 02:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 01:08 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here is what I don't understand.

Conservatives disavow the alt-right, but still get branded with it, no matter how hard they disavow.

Liberals embrace antifa, but then make some half-assed denial, and come out unscathed.

That seems to me to be a very severe double standard.

"Liberals embrace antifa". Nope.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/c...-story.htm

Nothing here to suggest that mainstream liberals embrace antifa.

Quote:https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=lib...&FORM=VIRE

Nothing here either to suggest that liberals embrace antifa. It's a quick clip with coverage of the clash between far-right groups and antifa. Nothing here that suggests that one side or the other started the violence first. The last speaker (Berkeley leader of an anti-police violence group) suggests that he wasn't sorry about the way the alt-right left the city. Not a lot of context here.

Quote:https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/...rfect.html

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/40169...e-of-right

Certainly Lemon are Cuomo are more in line with "mainstream" liberals than the Berkeley examples. I watched both clips. Both made the argument that, if choosing sides, that the anti-fascists had the moral high-ground over the fascists in their skirmish. Nothing to suggest that they supported unprovoked violence against the far right. It seems that unprovoked violence from antifa is what is mainly bothering you guys? A peaceful counterprotest is fine, right? Again, not a lot of meat here and still a far cry from proof that liberals "embrace" antifa.

I have a feeling that the vast majority of liberals would say that they condemn unprovoked violence from antifa against the groups that they oppose. Do you think differently?

I guess that would depend on how vast the "vast" majority is. Nobody has anything bad to say to about them until pushed by somebody like me. Plus, since according to Hillary, half of her opposition were in that bunch of fascists, I guess that means it is OK for them to attack a quarter of the nation. After all, their cause is righteous and therefore whatever they do is justified.

Re; the bolded;

Strange to consider that masked people inciting random violence hold the "moral high ground" over anybody. I guess that is like saying Idi Amin was morally better than Hitler.

Yes, unprovoked violence bothers me. What really bothers me is that it seems to bother me more than it bothers most leftists.

Next time Antifa strikes, the left will be quiet.

(06-26-2019 07:03 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 03:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 02:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 01:08 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here is what I don't understand.

Conservatives disavow the alt-right, but still get branded with it, no matter how hard they disavow.

Liberals embrace antifa, but then make some half-assed denial, and come out unscathed.

That seems to me to be a very severe double standard.

"Liberals embrace antifa". Nope.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/c...-story.htm

Nothing here to suggest that mainstream liberals embrace antifa.

Quote:https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=lib...&FORM=VIRE

Nothing here either to suggest that liberals embrace antifa. It's a quick clip with coverage of the clash between far-right groups and antifa. Nothing here that suggests that one side or the other started the violence first. The last speaker (Berkeley leader of an anti-police violence group) suggests that he wasn't sorry about the way the alt-right left the city. Not a lot of context here.

Quote:https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/...rfect.html

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/40169...e-of-right

Certainly Lemon are Cuomo are more in line with "mainstream" liberals than the Berkeley examples. I watched both clips. Both made the argument that, if choosing sides, that the anti-fascists had the moral high-ground over the fascists in their skirmish. Nothing to suggest that they supported unprovoked violence against the far right. It seems that unprovoked violence from antifa is what is mainly bothering you guys? A peaceful counterprotest is fine, right? Again, not a lot of meat here and still a far cry from proof that liberals "embrace" antifa.

I have a feeling that the vast majority of liberals would say that they condemn unprovoked violence from antifa against the groups that they oppose. Do you think differently?

I guess that would depend on how vast the "vast" majority is. Nobody has anything bad to say to about them until pushed by somebody like me. Plus, since according to Hillary, half of her opposition were in that bunch of fascists, I guess that means it is OK for them to attack a quarter of the nation. After all, their cause is righteous and therefore whatever they do is justified.

Re; the bolded;

Strange to consider that masked people inciting random violence hold the "moral high ground" over anybody. I guess that is like saying Idi Amin was morally better than Hitler.

Yes, unprovoked violence bothers me. What really bothers me is that it seems to bother me more than it bothers most leftists.

Next time Antifa strikes, the left will be quiet.

(06-26-2019 10:36 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 07:03 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 03:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 02:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 01:08 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here is what I don't understand.

Conservatives disavow the alt-right, but still get branded with it, no matter how hard they disavow.

Liberals embrace antifa, but then make some half-assed denial, and come out unscathed.

That seems to me to be a very severe double standard.

"Liberals embrace antifa". Nope.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/c...-story.htm

Nothing here to suggest that mainstream liberals embrace antifa.

Quote:https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=lib...&FORM=VIRE

Nothing here either to suggest that liberals embrace antifa. It's a quick clip with coverage of the clash between far-right groups and antifa. Nothing here that suggests that one side or the other started the violence first. The last speaker (Berkeley leader of an anti-police violence group) suggests that he wasn't sorry about the way the alt-right left the city. Not a lot of context here.

Quote:https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/...rfect.html

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/40169...e-of-right

Certainly Lemon are Cuomo are more in line with "mainstream" liberals than the Berkeley examples. I watched both clips. Both made the argument that, if choosing sides, that the anti-fascists had the moral high-ground over the fascists in their skirmish. Nothing to suggest that they supported unprovoked violence against the far right. It seems that unprovoked violence from antifa is what is mainly bothering you guys? A peaceful counterprotest is fine, right? Again, not a lot of meat here and still a far cry from proof that liberals "embrace" antifa.

I have a feeling that the vast majority of liberals would say that they condemn unprovoked violence from antifa against the groups that they oppose. Do you think differently?

I guess that would depend on how vast the "vast" majority is. Nobody has anything bad to say to about them until pushed by somebody like me. Plus, since according to Hillary, half of her opposition were in that bunch of fascists, I guess that means it is OK for them to attack a quarter of the nation. After all, their cause is righteous and therefore whatever they do is justified.

Re; the bolded;

Strange to consider that masked people inciting random violence hold the "moral high ground" over anybody. I guess that is like saying Idi Amin was morally better than Hitler.

The bolded is the key here. It's unclear whether the violence referenced in the clips was "incited" by antifa. Were they meeting violence from the far right with a violent response? I honestly don't know. I'm sure the scenes get confusing as things get out of hand. I'm pretty sure that not many would advocate that antifa should run up on a peaceful alt-right meeting and start beating them.

Quote:Yes, unprovoked violence bothers me. What really bothers me is that it seems to bother me more than it bothers most leftists.

Again... "unprovoked violence" is something that would bother most liberals. It's not OK to walk up to members of the alt-right and punch them in the face.

However, when both groups show up itching for conflict and various weapons have been brought in preparation... it's not surprising that violence breaks out. Both groups should accept blame.

Quote:Next time Antifa strikes, the left will be quiet.

I have a feeling that Antifa has become a bogeyman for many on the far right. Do they talk about them a lot on Fox News? The amount of discussion that they generate in the forum seems to dwarf their real-world significance.

This conversation is exactly what I'm talking about. If you're on the right, you're KKK and Nazi and Hitler. Prove you're not. And no matter how strongly you denounce them, it's not good enough.

But on the left, any criticism of the extreme leftist nutcases is very nuanced and almost apologetic, if it exists at all. "It's unclear whether the violence referenced in the clips was 'incited' by antifa."

Let me put it this way. My father and his generation fought and won a World War against the swastika. My generation and I fought and won a Cold War against the hammer and sickle. I'm not interested in giving up either of those victories. I reject both of those extremist nutcases, and I expect you to reject both with equal vigor.

And Bernie and the other democrats are a hell of a lot closer to the hammer and sickle than Trump is to the swastika.