(06-25-2019 09:20 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:07 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 08:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 07:58 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 10:55 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I would be interested in what illegal, immoral, or unethical actions were promulgated by the right out of a sense of justification during the Obama years, in your opinion.

Do you consider the 'town halling' to be illegal, immoral, or unethical?

Or the temerity of the so-called Tea-Party movement for just 'being' to be illegal, immoral, or unethical?

I will undoubtedly grant you that the voices of the libertarians and conservatives were probably much louder than the voices of the left during that time.

Much as the converse of that statement is true today.

But the issue isnt the 'loudness of the voices'. The issue in the term 'righteous anger' we seem to agree means not just the voice, but the sense that the position justifies illegal, immoral, or unethical behavior.

You just stated that "there was probably more from the right during the Obama years" -- so please tell us the specific illegal, immoral, or unethical behavior that the right or libertarian slant justified based on their political philosophy.

You may be correct; but I dont see much (if any) such actions being justified by the right or libertarians during that period. The floor is yours ----

Looks like there were some right-wingers filled with righteous anger after Obama was elected in 2008: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/...rack-obama

How do you know they were right-wingers? My father-in-law, a lifetime straight ticket Democrat, could have had the same reaction.

But in any case, this discussion has drifted. It originally was about a sense of righteousness in one's cause or position, not anger. I don't think Obama was angry when he made his comment about people "clinging to their guns and religion", and I don't think Hillary was angry when she made here "deplorables" speech. The righteousness portion is about smugness, not anger. "We're better than you, because you lack understanding like we have".

I am sure some people were upset in 2009 at Obama being elected, and others were upset that he was black. But you didn't see the widespread movements including violence over his election we saw with Trump, nor did we see a widespread and long lasting movement to have him removed for unfitness.

So, yes, some right wingers did some stupid stuff. But nowhere as widespread and long lasting as the stupid stuff done by left wingers the last three years. What were the equivalents of the Antifa riots back then? What was the equivalent of the Russia collusion witch hunt? Maybe there were a few people calling for impeachment, maybe not, but anything like the numbers now?

True, I don't have data to back this up, just my eyes and ears, but if one would kindly refer me to the database in which I can find these statistics, I would be glad to reference them.

I love the way a string of anecdotal incidents involving 1-4 people are construed to be a movement similar to the Resistance.

Sorry... I remembered racist violence after the 2008 elections and so I looked it up. That was the first thing that came to mind. I'm sure there's plenty more to be found if one has the time (which I currently don't). I did not mean for my post to be looked at as a definitive catalog on this topic.

Remember that church that I recently linked where the police detective was calling for gay people to be put to death? I wonder what was said in that church (and many others like it) after the 2008 election.

Maybe a lot of the same, or maybe it was people talking about how crazy Brother Cop is. Your assumptions are just...assumptions. Seemingly based on a stereotype.

Still trying to make a single cop, or even a single church, equivalent to the organized anti-right actions and the widespread calls for impeachment?

My assessment stands, that although there are self-righteous people on both sides, at this time the preponderance is on the left. Although some of those people on each side just grumble, some take action based on a feeling that the righteousness of their cause justifies the actions, and the preponderance of those are on the left.

JMHO.

Going to take more than a story about some guy(s) in East Bumfick acting/talking bad to change that.

.

I think I might actually take this another step. I dont think I would know more than about 5 people (all self-avowed racists and former clients) that would think the actions cited in the SPCL report as being 'justified' in any way, shape or form.

One prevalent message from the left (especially re: Antifa) is that the actions are not good, but that Antifa's beating the crap out of the racists is *far* better morally than the converse (i.e. the racists beating the crap out of the Antifa).

Does 'justification' have varying levels? That is, one level being a complete justification of action (i.e the resulting action was right and proper given the justification) and the other level being a relative justification (the Antifa beating the crap out of racists is bad, but morally better that the converse situation).

Or is this expressing too much anger for some?

(06-25-2019 09:20 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:07 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 08:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 07:58 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 10:55 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I would be interested in what illegal, immoral, or unethical actions were promulgated by the right out of a sense of justification during the Obama years, in your opinion.

Do you consider the 'town halling' to be illegal, immoral, or unethical?

Or the temerity of the so-called Tea-Party movement for just 'being' to be illegal, immoral, or unethical?

I will undoubtedly grant you that the voices of the libertarians and conservatives were probably much louder than the voices of the left during that time.

Much as the converse of that statement is true today.

But the issue isnt the 'loudness of the voices'. The issue in the term 'righteous anger' we seem to agree means not just the voice, but the sense that the position justifies illegal, immoral, or unethical behavior.

You just stated that "there was probably more from the right during the Obama years" -- so please tell us the specific illegal, immoral, or unethical behavior that the right or libertarian slant justified based on their political philosophy.

You may be correct; but I dont see much (if any) such actions being justified by the right or libertarians during that period. The floor is yours ----

Looks like there were some right-wingers filled with righteous anger after Obama was elected in 2008: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/...rack-obama

How do you know they were right-wingers? My father-in-law, a lifetime straight ticket Democrat, could have had the same reaction.

But in any case, this discussion has drifted. It originally was about a sense of righteousness in one's cause or position, not anger. I don't think Obama was angry when he made his comment about people "clinging to their guns and religion", and I don't think Hillary was angry when she made here "deplorables" speech. The righteousness portion is about smugness, not anger. "We're better than you, because you lack understanding like we have".

I am sure some people were upset in 2009 at Obama being elected, and others were upset that he was black. But you didn't see the widespread movements including violence over his election we saw with Trump, nor did we see a widespread and long lasting movement to have him removed for unfitness.

So, yes, some right wingers did some stupid stuff. But nowhere as widespread and long lasting as the stupid stuff done by left wingers the last three years. What were the equivalents of the Antifa riots back then? What was the equivalent of the Russia collusion witch hunt? Maybe there were a few people calling for impeachment, maybe not, but anything like the numbers now?

True, I don't have data to back this up, just my eyes and ears, but if one would kindly refer me to the database in which I can find these statistics, I would be glad to reference them.

I love the way a string of anecdotal incidents involving 1-4 people are construed to be a movement similar to the Resistance.

Sorry... I remembered racist violence after the 2008 elections and so I looked it up. That was the first thing that came to mind. I'm sure there's plenty more to be found if one has the time (which I currently don't). I did not mean for my post to be looked at as a definitive catalog on this topic.

Remember that church that I recently linked where the police detective was calling for gay people to be put to death? I wonder what was said in that church (and many others like it) after the 2008 election.

Maybe a lot of the same, or maybe it was people talking about how crazy Brother Cop is. Your assumptions are just...assumptions. Seemingly based on a stereotype.

Still trying to make a single cop, or even a single church, equivalent to the organized anti-right actions and the widespread calls for impeachment?

No. That's why I said "and many others like it".

(06-25-2019 09:57 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:20 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:07 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 08:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 07:58 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Looks like there were some right-wingers filled with righteous anger after Obama was elected in 2008: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/...rack-obama

How do you know they were right-wingers? My father-in-law, a lifetime straight ticket Democrat, could have had the same reaction.

But in any case, this discussion has drifted. It originally was about a sense of righteousness in one's cause or position, not anger. I don't think Obama was angry when he made his comment about people "clinging to their guns and religion", and I don't think Hillary was angry when she made here "deplorables" speech. The righteousness portion is about smugness, not anger. "We're better than you, because you lack understanding like we have".

I am sure some people were upset in 2009 at Obama being elected, and others were upset that he was black. But you didn't see the widespread movements including violence over his election we saw with Trump, nor did we see a widespread and long lasting movement to have him removed for unfitness.

So, yes, some right wingers did some stupid stuff. But nowhere as widespread and long lasting as the stupid stuff done by left wingers the last three years. What were the equivalents of the Antifa riots back then? What was the equivalent of the Russia collusion witch hunt? Maybe there were a few people calling for impeachment, maybe not, but anything like the numbers now?

True, I don't have data to back this up, just my eyes and ears, but if one would kindly refer me to the database in which I can find these statistics, I would be glad to reference them.

I love the way a string of anecdotal incidents involving 1-4 people are construed to be a movement similar to the Resistance.

Sorry... I remembered racist violence after the 2008 elections and so I looked it up. That was the first thing that came to mind. I'm sure there's plenty more to be found if one has the time (which I currently don't). I did not mean for my post to be looked at as a definitive catalog on this topic.

Remember that church that I recently linked where the police detective was calling for gay people to be put to death? I wonder what was said in that church (and many others like it) after the 2008 election.

Maybe a lot of the same, or maybe it was people talking about how crazy Brother Cop is. Your assumptions are just...assumptions. Seemingly based on a stereotype.

Still trying to make a single cop, or even a single church, equivalent to the organized anti-right actions and the widespread calls for impeachment?

My assessment stands, that although there are self-righteous people on both sides, at this time the preponderance is on the left. Although some of those people on each side just grumble, some take action based on a feeling that the righteousness of their cause justifies the actions, and the preponderance of those are on the left.

JMHO.

Going to take more than a story about some guy(s) in East Bumfick acting/talking bad to change that.

.

I think I might actually take this another step. I dont think I would know more than about 5 people (all self-avowed racists and former clients) that would think the actions cited in the SPCL report as being 'justified' in any way, shape or form.

One prevalent message from the left (especially re: Antifa) is that the actions are not good, but that Antifa's beating the crap out of the racists is *far* better morally than the converse (i.e. the racists beating the crap out of the Antifa).

Does 'justification' have varying levels? That is, one level being a complete justification of action (i.e the resulting action was right and proper given the justification) and the other level being a relative justification (the Antifa beating the crap out of racists is bad, but morally better that the converse situation).

Or is this expressing too much anger for some?

I don't think that the beating up of racists is justified.

To be clear, I don't have any idea if you are an angry person or not. It's not my business either way. Your posts that are full of unnecessary GD's and F'ns would likely be read as more angry than the posts of OO, George, and Owl#'s (for example). It doesn't bother me beyond having to wade through the implied cursewords to get to your points. I didn't think that you would be so sensitive about that observation as I related it to the previous topic. I am sorry that I brought it up.

(06-25-2019 01:23 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:20 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:07 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 08:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 07:58 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Looks like there were some right-wingers filled with righteous anger after Obama was elected in 2008: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/...rack-obama

How do you know they were right-wingers? My father-in-law, a lifetime straight ticket Democrat, could have had the same reaction.

But in any case, this discussion has drifted. It originally was about a sense of righteousness in one's cause or position, not anger. I don't think Obama was angry when he made his comment about people "clinging to their guns and religion", and I don't think Hillary was angry when she made here "deplorables" speech. The righteousness portion is about smugness, not anger. "We're better than you, because you lack understanding like we have".

I am sure some people were upset in 2009 at Obama being elected, and others were upset that he was black. But you didn't see the widespread movements including violence over his election we saw with Trump, nor did we see a widespread and long lasting movement to have him removed for unfitness.

So, yes, some right wingers did some stupid stuff. But nowhere as widespread and long lasting as the stupid stuff done by left wingers the last three years. What were the equivalents of the Antifa riots back then? What was the equivalent of the Russia collusion witch hunt? Maybe there were a few people calling for impeachment, maybe not, but anything like the numbers now?

True, I don't have data to back this up, just my eyes and ears, but if one would kindly refer me to the database in which I can find these statistics, I would be glad to reference them.

I love the way a string of anecdotal incidents involving 1-4 people are construed to be a movement similar to the Resistance.

Sorry... I remembered racist violence after the 2008 elections and so I looked it up. That was the first thing that came to mind. I'm sure there's plenty more to be found if one has the time (which I currently don't). I did not mean for my post to be looked at as a definitive catalog on this topic.

Remember that church that I recently linked where the police detective was calling for gay people to be put to death? I wonder what was said in that church (and many others like it) after the 2008 election.

Maybe a lot of the same, or maybe it was people talking about how crazy Brother Cop is. Your assumptions are just...assumptions. Seemingly based on a stereotype.

Still trying to make a single cop, or even a single church, equivalent to the organized anti-right actions and the widespread calls for impeachment?

No. That's why I said "and many others like it".

That's why I said "based on a stereotype".

(06-25-2019 01:23 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:20 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:07 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 08:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 07:58 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Looks like there were some right-wingers filled with righteous anger after Obama was elected in 2008: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/...rack-obama

How do you know they were right-wingers? My father-in-law, a lifetime straight ticket Democrat, could have had the same reaction.

But in any case, this discussion has drifted. It originally was about a sense of righteousness in one's cause or position, not anger. I don't think Obama was angry when he made his comment about people "clinging to their guns and religion", and I don't think Hillary was angry when she made here "deplorables" speech. The righteousness portion is about smugness, not anger. "We're better than you, because you lack understanding like we have".

I am sure some people were upset in 2009 at Obama being elected, and others were upset that he was black. But you didn't see the widespread movements including violence over his election we saw with Trump, nor did we see a widespread and long lasting movement to have him removed for unfitness.

So, yes, some right wingers did some stupid stuff. But nowhere as widespread and long lasting as the stupid stuff done by left wingers the last three years. What were the equivalents of the Antifa riots back then? What was the equivalent of the Russia collusion witch hunt? Maybe there were a few people calling for impeachment, maybe not, but anything like the numbers now?

True, I don't have data to back this up, just my eyes and ears, but if one would kindly refer me to the database in which I can find these statistics, I would be glad to reference them.

I love the way a string of anecdotal incidents involving 1-4 people are construed to be a movement similar to the Resistance.

Sorry... I remembered racist violence after the 2008 elections and so I looked it up. That was the first thing that came to mind. I'm sure there's plenty more to be found if one has the time (which I currently don't). I did not mean for my post to be looked at as a definitive catalog on this topic.

Remember that church that I recently linked where the police detective was calling for gay people to be put to death? I wonder what was said in that church (and many others like it) after the 2008 election.

Maybe a lot of the same, or maybe it was people talking about how crazy Brother Cop is. Your assumptions are just...assumptions. Seemingly based on a stereotype.

Still trying to make a single cop, or even a single church, equivalent to the organized anti-right actions and the widespread calls for impeachment?

No. That's why I said "and many others like it".

lolz... so the long and short is that you really cant specifically document those broad allegations.

Next best thing to cover that bet is to cite a onesy or twosey, then wave your hands and say 'and many others like it'.

Hopefully you see the deficiency there. Not really any proffer of proof, but the proof is just a reiteration of your broad unsubstantiated allegation.

(06-25-2019 09:57 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:20 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:07 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 08:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 07:58 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Looks like there were some right-wingers filled with righteous anger after Obama was elected in 2008: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/...rack-obama

How do you know they were right-wingers? My father-in-law, a lifetime straight ticket Democrat, could have had the same reaction.

But in any case, this discussion has drifted. It originally was about a sense of righteousness in one's cause or position, not anger. I don't think Obama was angry when he made his comment about people "clinging to their guns and religion", and I don't think Hillary was angry when she made here "deplorables" speech. The righteousness portion is about smugness, not anger. "We're better than you, because you lack understanding like we have".

I am sure some people were upset in 2009 at Obama being elected, and others were upset that he was black. But you didn't see the widespread movements including violence over his election we saw with Trump, nor did we see a widespread and long lasting movement to have him removed for unfitness.

So, yes, some right wingers did some stupid stuff. But nowhere as widespread and long lasting as the stupid stuff done by left wingers the last three years. What were the equivalents of the Antifa riots back then? What was the equivalent of the Russia collusion witch hunt? Maybe there were a few people calling for impeachment, maybe not, but anything like the numbers now?

True, I don't have data to back this up, just my eyes and ears, but if one would kindly refer me to the database in which I can find these statistics, I would be glad to reference them.

I love the way a string of anecdotal incidents involving 1-4 people are construed to be a movement similar to the Resistance.

Sorry... I remembered racist violence after the 2008 elections and so I looked it up. That was the first thing that came to mind. I'm sure there's plenty more to be found if one has the time (which I currently don't). I did not mean for my post to be looked at as a definitive catalog on this topic.

Remember that church that I recently linked where the police detective was calling for gay people to be put to death? I wonder what was said in that church (and many others like it) after the 2008 election.

Maybe a lot of the same, or maybe it was people talking about how crazy Brother Cop is. Your assumptions are just...assumptions. Seemingly based on a stereotype.

Still trying to make a single cop, or even a single church, equivalent to the organized anti-right actions and the widespread calls for impeachment?

My assessment stands, that although there are self-righteous people on both sides, at this time the preponderance is on the left. Although some of those people on each side just grumble, some take action based on a feeling that the righteousness of their cause justifies the actions, and the preponderance of those are on the left.

JMHO.

Going to take more than a story about some guy(s) in East Bumfick acting/talking bad to change that.

.

I think I might actually take this another step. I dont think I would know more than about 5 people (all self-avowed racists and former clients) that would think the actions cited in the SPCL report as being 'justified' in any way, shape or form.

One prevalent message from the left (especially re: Antifa) is that the actions are not good, but that Antifa's beating the crap out of the racists is *far* better morally than the converse (i.e. the racists beating the crap out of the Antifa).

Does 'justification' have varying levels? That is, one level being a complete justification of action (i.e the resulting action was right and proper given the justification) and the other level being a relative justification (the Antifa beating the crap out of racists is bad, but morally better that the converse situation).

Or is this expressing too much anger for some?

Well, that's 5 more than I could come up with, and I live in redneck country.

A couple of years ago, I passed a couple of pick up trucks on the side of a country road, one with its hood up and two cowboys working on it. One white, one black. I wonder who called who, or who stopped to help.

Lot of churches around here, too. maybe not like the one in Tennessee that 93 thinks is typical of many others.

My former in-laws were the most racist people I knew, and they would not condone any violence.

(06-25-2019 01:42 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 01:23 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:20 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:07 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 08:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  How do you know they were right-wingers? My father-in-law, a lifetime straight ticket Democrat, could have had the same reaction.

But in any case, this discussion has drifted. It originally was about a sense of righteousness in one's cause or position, not anger. I don't think Obama was angry when he made his comment about people "clinging to their guns and religion", and I don't think Hillary was angry when she made here "deplorables" speech. The righteousness portion is about smugness, not anger. "We're better than you, because you lack understanding like we have".

I am sure some people were upset in 2009 at Obama being elected, and others were upset that he was black. But you didn't see the widespread movements including violence over his election we saw with Trump, nor did we see a widespread and long lasting movement to have him removed for unfitness.

So, yes, some right wingers did some stupid stuff. But nowhere as widespread and long lasting as the stupid stuff done by left wingers the last three years. What were the equivalents of the Antifa riots back then? What was the equivalent of the Russia collusion witch hunt? Maybe there were a few people calling for impeachment, maybe not, but anything like the numbers now?

True, I don't have data to back this up, just my eyes and ears, but if one would kindly refer me to the database in which I can find these statistics, I would be glad to reference them.

I love the way a string of anecdotal incidents involving 1-4 people are construed to be a movement similar to the Resistance.

Sorry... I remembered racist violence after the 2008 elections and so I looked it up. That was the first thing that came to mind. I'm sure there's plenty more to be found if one has the time (which I currently don't). I did not mean for my post to be looked at as a definitive catalog on this topic.

Remember that church that I recently linked where the police detective was calling for gay people to be put to death? I wonder what was said in that church (and many others like it) after the 2008 election.

Maybe a lot of the same, or maybe it was people talking about how crazy Brother Cop is. Your assumptions are just...assumptions. Seemingly based on a stereotype.

Still trying to make a single cop, or even a single church, equivalent to the organized anti-right actions and the widespread calls for impeachment?

No. That's why I said "and many others like it".

lolz... so the long and short is that you really cant specifically document those broad allegations.

Next best thing to cover that bet is to cite a onesy or twosey, then wave your hands and say 'and many others like it'.

Hopefully you see the deficiency there. Not really any proffer of proof, but the proof is just a reiteration of your broad unsubstantiated allegation.

I think the "logic" trail here goes like this:

A. Many GOPers belong to fundamentalist churches,
B Many GOPers are racists
C. Therefore, many fundamentalist churches are OK with racists, and would applaud the cop.

My experience does not bear out this thinking. Maybe 60 years ago, not today.

(06-25-2019 01:42 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 01:23 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:20 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:07 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 08:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  How do you know they were right-wingers? My father-in-law, a lifetime straight ticket Democrat, could have had the same reaction.

But in any case, this discussion has drifted. It originally was about a sense of righteousness in one's cause or position, not anger. I don't think Obama was angry when he made his comment about people "clinging to their guns and religion", and I don't think Hillary was angry when she made here "deplorables" speech. The righteousness portion is about smugness, not anger. "We're better than you, because you lack understanding like we have".

I am sure some people were upset in 2009 at Obama being elected, and others were upset that he was black. But you didn't see the widespread movements including violence over his election we saw with Trump, nor did we see a widespread and long lasting movement to have him removed for unfitness.

So, yes, some right wingers did some stupid stuff. But nowhere as widespread and long lasting as the stupid stuff done by left wingers the last three years. What were the equivalents of the Antifa riots back then? What was the equivalent of the Russia collusion witch hunt? Maybe there were a few people calling for impeachment, maybe not, but anything like the numbers now?

True, I don't have data to back this up, just my eyes and ears, but if one would kindly refer me to the database in which I can find these statistics, I would be glad to reference them.

I love the way a string of anecdotal incidents involving 1-4 people are construed to be a movement similar to the Resistance.

Sorry... I remembered racist violence after the 2008 elections and so I looked it up. That was the first thing that came to mind. I'm sure there's plenty more to be found if one has the time (which I currently don't). I did not mean for my post to be looked at as a definitive catalog on this topic.

Remember that church that I recently linked where the police detective was calling for gay people to be put to death? I wonder what was said in that church (and many others like it) after the 2008 election.

Maybe a lot of the same, or maybe it was people talking about how crazy Brother Cop is. Your assumptions are just...assumptions. Seemingly based on a stereotype.

Still trying to make a single cop, or even a single church, equivalent to the organized anti-right actions and the widespread calls for impeachment?

No. That's why I said "and many others like it".

lolz... so the long and short is that you really cant specifically document those broad allegations.

Next best thing to cover that bet is to cite a onesy or twosey, then wave your hands and say 'and many others like it'.

Hopefully you see the deficiency there. Not really any proffer of proof, but the proof is just a reiteration of your broad unsubstantiated allegation.

Not trying to cover it up. Like I said... crazy week at work and not looking to do significant research here. Maybe you're right... perhaps conservatives would never stoop so low as to justify immoral actions based on righteousness...

(06-25-2019 02:02 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I think the "logic" trail here goes like this:
A. Many GOPers belong to fundamentalist churches,
B Many GOPers are racists
C. Therefore, many fundamentalist churches are OK with racists, and would applaud the cop.
My experience does not bear out this thinking. Maybe 60 years ago, not today.

I would say A is probably true.
I would say the truth or falsity of B depends on how you define many, but if it's much more than a couple of dozen, I'd say B is false.
And I would say that C in an improper inference, not supported by A and B.

(06-25-2019 02:02 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 01:42 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 01:23 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:20 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:07 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Sorry... I remembered racist violence after the 2008 elections and so I looked it up. That was the first thing that came to mind. I'm sure there's plenty more to be found if one has the time (which I currently don't). I did not mean for my post to be looked at as a definitive catalog on this topic.

Remember that church that I recently linked where the police detective was calling for gay people to be put to death? I wonder what was said in that church (and many others like it) after the 2008 election.

Maybe a lot of the same, or maybe it was people talking about how crazy Brother Cop is. Your assumptions are just...assumptions. Seemingly based on a stereotype.

Still trying to make a single cop, or even a single church, equivalent to the organized anti-right actions and the widespread calls for impeachment?

No. That's why I said "and many others like it".

lolz... so the long and short is that you really cant specifically document those broad allegations.

Next best thing to cover that bet is to cite a onesy or twosey, then wave your hands and say 'and many others like it'.

Hopefully you see the deficiency there. Not really any proffer of proof, but the proof is just a reiteration of your broad unsubstantiated allegation.

I think the "logic" trail here goes like this:

A. Many GOPers belong to fundamentalist churches,
B Many GOPers are racists
C. Therefore, many fundamentalist churches are OK with racists, and would applaud the cop.

My experience does not bear out this thinking. Maybe 60 years ago, not today.

Or

A. Some GOPers belong to fundamentalist churches.
B. Of the many fundamentalist churches out there, some are OK with racism and other views that are, IMO, abhorent.
C. Some GOP members attend churches where the teachings are, to me, abhorent.

Is the number in C. greater or equal than the number of extremist antifa members? I have no idea. Are there Democrats that may attend this type of church? I also have no idea.

I grew up in a fundamentalist church, and never heard a word of racism. Of course, that was the fifties, so racist attitudes were probably the norm.

Then, after 9 years of virulent atheism, I joined a Disciples of Christ Church precisely because it was more liberal and tolerant of people of little faith, like me. Never saw or heard any indication of racism.

After my divorce, I joined a Methodist church. Still no racism.

Since 1990 or so, agnostic, but I know a lot of churchgoing people. No racism.

I think your stereotype of racist fundamentalists is a construct of the Democratic Party, maybe based on 1950's lore. But I don't know. Maybe back when you were a conservative, you rode with the KKK. Maybe in your current life, you see Christians attacking blacks all the time. I don't know why you think as you do. All I can go with is what I see and what I experience, and nothing I have seen or experienced is anything like the stereotype that the Dems promulgate. That's one reason I get so tired of the "deporables" type of stereotyping. I don't cling to my religion, but I don't put down those who do.

And I do think it is a stereotype that is far from current reality. We had my mother's funeral in that same fundamentalist church I grew up in. We had her best friend, a black lady, sitting with the family, and not a peep, not a hard glance from anybody there. And that was 30 years ago. I feel sure that racial attitudes have not worsened since then.

Now I believe that cop that you have built your case on was convinced gays were going to hell. Some Christians would agree. Also most Muslims. But thinking somebody is going to hell is not the same as hating them. What is this, 1619?
My in-laws, the fundamentalist Baptists that they were, told my nephews, their grandchildren, that if they didn't cut their hair, they would go to hell. But they didn't hate them. And of course, I repeat, they were lifelong STDs.

(06-25-2019 03:25 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I grew up in a fundamentalist church, and never heard a word of racism. Of course, that was the fifties, so racist attitudes were probably the norm.

Then, after 9 years of virulent atheism, I joined a Disciples of Christ Church precisely because it was more liberal and tolerant of people of little faith, like me. Never saw or heard any indication of racism.

After my divorce, I joined a Methodist church. Still no racism.

Since 1990 or so, agnostic, but I know a lot of churchgoing people. No racism.

I think your stereotype of racist fundamentalists is a construct of the Democratic Party, maybe based on 1950's lore. But I don't know. Maybe back when you were a conservative, you rode with the KKK. Maybe in your current life, you see Christians attacking blacks all the time. I don't know why you think as you do. All I can go with is what I see and what I experience, and nothing I have seen or experienced is anything like the stereotype that the Dems promulgate.

I hear you. We are all formed by our experiences. I have a fair amount of family who attend fundamentalist churches. I find what they hear there abhorrent in terms of racism, sexism, etc. That is my experience. Clearly, not all fundamentalist churches are the same.

I attend a Christian church and have never heard a peep of racism in my decades of attendance, for what it's worth.

Quote:And I do think it is a stereotype that is far from current reality. We had my mother's funeral in that same fundamentalist church I grew up in. We had her best friend, a black lady, sitting with the family, and not a peep, not a hard glance from anybody there. And that was 30 years ago. I feel sure that racial attitudes have not worsened since then.

I will accept your experience that there is no racism at your family's fundamentalist church. Again, they are not all the same.

Quote:Now I believe that cop that you have built your case on was convinced gays were going to hell. Some Christians would agree. Also most Muslims. But thinking somebody is going to hell is not the same as hating them. What is this, 1619?
My in-laws, the fundamentalist Baptists that they were, told my nephews, their grandchildren, that if they didn't cut their hair, they would go to hell. But they didn't hate them. And of course, I repeat, they were lifelong STDs.

Actually, the cop was advocating that gay people should be put to death. Do you think that he hates them?

(06-25-2019 02:51 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 01:42 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 01:23 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:20 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 09:07 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Sorry... I remembered racist violence after the 2008 elections and so I looked it up. That was the first thing that came to mind. I'm sure there's plenty more to be found if one has the time (which I currently don't). I did not mean for my post to be looked at as a definitive catalog on this topic.

Remember that church that I recently linked where the police detective was calling for gay people to be put to death? I wonder what was said in that church (and many others like it) after the 2008 election.

Maybe a lot of the same, or maybe it was people talking about how crazy Brother Cop is. Your assumptions are just...assumptions. Seemingly based on a stereotype.

Still trying to make a single cop, or even a single church, equivalent to the organized anti-right actions and the widespread calls for impeachment?

No. That's why I said "and many others like it".

lolz... so the long and short is that you really cant specifically document those broad allegations.

Next best thing to cover that bet is to cite a onesy or twosey, then wave your hands and say 'and many others like it'.

Hopefully you see the deficiency there. Not really any proffer of proof, but the proof is just a reiteration of your broad unsubstantiated allegation.

Not trying to cover it up. Like I said... crazy week at work and not looking to do significant research here. Maybe you're right... perhaps conservatives would never stoop so low as to justify immoral actions based on righteousness...

No doubt that every group does to some extent.

I dont think I ever noted 'never' or 'none' anywhere. Could you please note where I did, as I would hate to be that absolute, and strident apologies if that did happen. Or perhaps tell me where I implied 'never' or none.

Or, if your characterization is just a tad overbroad, I am sure you will recognize it and denote that for us.

(06-25-2019 04:01 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 03:25 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I grew up in a fundamentalist church, and never heard a word of racism. Of course, that was the fifties, so racist attitudes were probably the norm.

Then, after 9 years of virulent atheism, I joined a Disciples of Christ Church precisely because it was more liberal and tolerant of people of little faith, like me. Never saw or heard any indication of racism.

After my divorce, I joined a Methodist church. Still no racism.

Since 1990 or so, agnostic, but I know a lot of churchgoing people. No racism.

I think your stereotype of racist fundamentalists is a construct of the Democratic Party, maybe based on 1950's lore. But I don't know. Maybe back when you were a conservative, you rode with the KKK. Maybe in your current life, you see Christians attacking blacks all the time. I don't know why you think as you do. All I can go with is what I see and what I experience, and nothing I have seen or experienced is anything like the stereotype that the Dems promulgate.

I hear you. We are all formed by our experiences. I have a fair amount of family who attend fundamentalist churches. I find what they hear there abhorrent in terms of racism, sexism, etc. That is my experience. Clearly, not all fundamentalist churches are the same.

I attend a Christian church and have never heard a peep of racism in my decades of attendance, for what it's worth.

Quote:And I do think it is a stereotype that is far from current reality. We had my mother's funeral in that same fundamentalist church I grew up in. We had her best friend, a black lady, sitting with the family, and not a peep, not a hard glance from anybody there. And that was 30 years ago. I feel sure that racial attitudes have not worsened since then.

I will accept your experience that there is no racism at your family's fundamentalist church. Again, they are not all the same.

Quote:Now I believe that cop that you have built your case on was convinced gays were going to hell. Some Christians would agree. Also most Muslims. But thinking somebody is going to hell is not the same as hating them. What is this, 1619?
My in-laws, the fundamentalist Baptists that they were, told my nephews, their grandchildren, that if they didn't cut their hair, they would go to hell. But they didn't hate them. And of course, I repeat, they were lifelong STDs.

Actually, the cop was advocating that gay people should be put to death. Do you think that he hates them?

Probably he does. But I doubt that "solution" would find many advocates in his own church, much less the "many" others you seem to think would agree. Probably as much support for that as there is for killing cracker babies.

Kill them

kill their babies

There are extremists. Why try to use isolated extremists to paint whole swaths of the population as exactly the same?

(06-25-2019 07:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 04:01 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 03:25 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I grew up in a fundamentalist church, and never heard a word of racism. Of course, that was the fifties, so racist attitudes were probably the norm.

Then, after 9 years of virulent atheism, I joined a Disciples of Christ Church precisely because it was more liberal and tolerant of people of little faith, like me. Never saw or heard any indication of racism.

After my divorce, I joined a Methodist church. Still no racism.

Since 1990 or so, agnostic, but I know a lot of churchgoing people. No racism.

I think your stereotype of racist fundamentalists is a construct of the Democratic Party, maybe based on 1950's lore. But I don't know. Maybe back when you were a conservative, you rode with the KKK. Maybe in your current life, you see Christians attacking blacks all the time. I don't know why you think as you do. All I can go with is what I see and what I experience, and nothing I have seen or experienced is anything like the stereotype that the Dems promulgate.

I hear you. We are all formed by our experiences. I have a fair amount of family who attend fundamentalist churches. I find what they hear there abhorrent in terms of racism, sexism, etc. That is my experience. Clearly, not all fundamentalist churches are the same.

I attend a Christian church and have never heard a peep of racism in my decades of attendance, for what it's worth.

Quote:And I do think it is a stereotype that is far from current reality. We had my mother's funeral in that same fundamentalist church I grew up in. We had her best friend, a black lady, sitting with the family, and not a peep, not a hard glance from anybody there. And that was 30 years ago. I feel sure that racial attitudes have not worsened since then.

I will accept your experience that there is no racism at your family's fundamentalist church. Again, they are not all the same.

Quote:Now I believe that cop that you have built your case on was convinced gays were going to hell. Some Christians would agree. Also most Muslims. But thinking somebody is going to hell is not the same as hating them. What is this, 1619?
My in-laws, the fundamentalist Baptists that they were, told my nephews, their grandchildren, that if they didn't cut their hair, they would go to hell. But they didn't hate them. And of course, I repeat, they were lifelong STDs.

Actually, the cop was advocating that gay people should be put to death. Do you think that he hates them?

Probably he does. But I doubt that "solution" would find many advocates in his own church, much less the "many" others you seem to think would agree. Probably as much support for that as there is for killing cracker babies.

Kill them

kill their babies

There are extremists. Why try to use isolated extremists to paint whole swaths of the population as exactly the same?

Probably for the same reason that you guys are constantly bringing up the violent members of antifa when it comes to progressive attitudes?

(06-25-2019 08:30 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 07:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 04:01 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 03:25 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I grew up in a fundamentalist church, and never heard a word of racism. Of course, that was the fifties, so racist attitudes were probably the norm.

Then, after 9 years of virulent atheism, I joined a Disciples of Christ Church precisely because it was more liberal and tolerant of people of little faith, like me. Never saw or heard any indication of racism.

After my divorce, I joined a Methodist church. Still no racism.

Since 1990 or so, agnostic, but I know a lot of churchgoing people. No racism.

I think your stereotype of racist fundamentalists is a construct of the Democratic Party, maybe based on 1950's lore. But I don't know. Maybe back when you were a conservative, you rode with the KKK. Maybe in your current life, you see Christians attacking blacks all the time. I don't know why you think as you do. All I can go with is what I see and what I experience, and nothing I have seen or experienced is anything like the stereotype that the Dems promulgate.

I hear you. We are all formed by our experiences. I have a fair amount of family who attend fundamentalist churches. I find what they hear there abhorrent in terms of racism, sexism, etc. That is my experience. Clearly, not all fundamentalist churches are the same.

I attend a Christian church and have never heard a peep of racism in my decades of attendance, for what it's worth.

Quote:And I do think it is a stereotype that is far from current reality. We had my mother's funeral in that same fundamentalist church I grew up in. We had her best friend, a black lady, sitting with the family, and not a peep, not a hard glance from anybody there. And that was 30 years ago. I feel sure that racial attitudes have not worsened since then.

I will accept your experience that there is no racism at your family's fundamentalist church. Again, they are not all the same.

Quote:Now I believe that cop that you have built your case on was convinced gays were going to hell. Some Christians would agree. Also most Muslims. But thinking somebody is going to hell is not the same as hating them. What is this, 1619?
My in-laws, the fundamentalist Baptists that they were, told my nephews, their grandchildren, that if they didn't cut their hair, they would go to hell. But they didn't hate them. And of course, I repeat, they were lifelong STDs.

Actually, the cop was advocating that gay people should be put to death. Do you think that he hates them?

Probably he does. But I doubt that "solution" would find many advocates in his own church, much less the "many" others you seem to think would agree. Probably as much support for that as there is for killing cracker babies.

Kill them

kill their babies

There are extremists. Why try to use isolated extremists to paint whole swaths of the population as exactly the same?

Probably for the same reason that you guys are constantly bringing up the violent members of antifa when it comes to progressive attitudes?

I am not "you guys", I am me. Just me. I do not represent all the right, nor do I represent all cops or all churchgoers.

One cop in Tennessee is an *******. That proves something to you about right wingers.
Most of the people who think their righteousness justifies bad actions are on the left. Antifa. Occupy Wall St. The Kavanaugh protesters, including the letter leaker.

And you keep harping on this one crazy cop. (yeah, I know, crazy is a slur in some people's eyes, but I think it fits for that guy)

So we are back to you equating a single cop in Tennessee to a violent group involved in physical violence on both coasts.

You keep trying to make this about "all leftists" and "only the left", but that is just you. I started out with "mostly" and am still there. I guess we will let the lone cop face off with all the Antifa (Thousands?) from both coasts, since you think they are equal.

From the wiki on Antifa:

"Activists involved in the movement tend to be anti-capitalists[19] and subscribe to a range of ideologies, typically on the left. They include anarchists, socialists and communists along with some liberals and social democrats.[25] Their stated focus is on fighting far-right and white supremacist ideologies directly, rather than through electoral means."

Socialists, liberals, anti-capitalists, and social democrats. Sounds like the Democratic Congressional roll call.

But Antifa as an example of leftist people who think their righteousness justifies bad action are not alone. I gave others. You seem stuck on one nutty cop. Heck, I gave you abortion clinic bombers and still you want to go to one crazy cop.

Maybe this is an example of somebody who feels the righteousness of her beliefs justifies her behavior.

Spitter

Probably not a GOPer

(06-26-2019 09:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Maybe this is an example of somebody who feels the righteousness of her beliefs justifies her behavior.

Spitter

Probably not a GOPer

Hopefully the spitter won't be welcomed into the Democratic party like the GOP welcomed this guy. He probably felt righteous enough in his beliefs to use racist language.

https://www.wnyc.org/story/nj-gop-welcom...t-remarks/

"Saudino received "enthusiastic applause" when he addressed the Bergen County Republican Organization meeting Tuesday night, according to the New Jersey Globe, which first reported Saudino's reemergence."


As usual... awful behavior to be found on each side.

(06-26-2019 10:34 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 09:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Maybe this is an example of somebody who feels the righteousness of her beliefs justifies her behavior.

Spitter

Probably not a GOPer

Hopefully the spitter won't be welcomed into the Democratic party like the GOP welcomed this guy. He probably felt righteous enough in his beliefs to use racist language.

https://www.wnyc.org/story/nj-gop-welcom...t-remarks/

"Saudino received "enthusiastic applause" when he addressed the Bergen County Republican Organization meeting Tuesday night, according to the New Jersey Globe, which first reported Saudino's reemergence."


As usual... awful behavior to be found on each side.

Golly, Gee, Gosh, 93, that there are people on each side who feel their righteousness justifies their actions was never at issue. I gave you that in my original post.(7573) Go back and look. My thoughts were, and still are, that the preponderance of such behavior is on the left. If your efforts are trying to prove it is exactly equal, 50-50, I disagree. My efforts are NOT, repeat, NOT, trying to say it is 100% on the left. My thinking is that it is mostly on the left. Telling me a story about a cop here, a sheriff there (is that a pattern of law enforcement?) does zero to make me think it is exactly equal, and I conceded, even in my first post on this matter, that there are some on both sides. I am not sure what war you are fighting. Lad asked me to cite data. Maybe he can cite some that shows it is exactly equal. Until then, I find a cop and sheriff don't offset Antifa and/or the Capitol antiKavanaugh demonstrators or the Occupy Wall St. Movement, or the...well, the list is endless isn't it.

So let's stop fighting this imaginary war. I never said it was all on the left, and i have no idea what you are saying.

(06-26-2019 11:10 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 10:34 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 09:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Maybe this is an example of somebody who feels the righteousness of her beliefs justifies her behavior.

Spitter

Probably not a GOPer

Hopefully the spitter won't be welcomed into the Democratic party like the GOP welcomed this guy. He probably felt righteous enough in his beliefs to use racist language.

https://www.wnyc.org/story/nj-gop-welcom...t-remarks/

"Saudino received "enthusiastic applause" when he addressed the Bergen County Republican Organization meeting Tuesday night, according to the New Jersey Globe, which first reported Saudino's reemergence."


As usual... awful behavior to be found on each side.

Golly, Gee, Gosh, 93, that there are people on each side who feel their righteousness justifies their actions was never at issue. I gave you that in my original post.(7573) Go back and look. My thoughts were, and still are, that the preponderance of such behavior is on the left. If your efforts are trying to prove it is exactly equal, 50-50, I disagree. My efforts are NOT, repeat, NOT, trying to say it is 100% on the left. My thinking is that it is mostly on the left. Telling me a story about a cop here, a sheriff there (is that a pattern of law enforcement?) does zero to make me think it is exactly equal, and I conceded, even in my first post on this matter, that there are some on both sides. I am not sure what war you are fighting. Lad asked me to cite data. Maybe he can cite some that shows it is exactly equal. Until then, I find a cop and sheriff don't offset Antifa and/or the Capitol antiKavanaugh demonstrators or the Occupy Wall St. Movement, or the...well, the list is endless isn't it.

So let's stop fighting this imaginary war. I never said it was all on the left, and i have no idea what you are saying.

I completely agree that this "imaginary war" is silly. I was wondering why you posted yet another of these anecdotal one-off stories of bad behavior from an unknown leftist this morning.