(05-06-2019 10:20 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:22 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 07:58 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 09:55 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  As I said, as I see it the "point" of antifa is to deny a platform for right-wing extremists.

No, the point of Antifa is to use that excuse as a basis for a platform for left-wing extremists.

Quote:What is the point of white nationalism? Basically white separatism?

I have no idea. I see no point to it. Just as I see no point to Antifa, except as a platform for commie left wingers.

The point of many of the alt-right groups is to provide a public, acceptable face, for white nationalists.

Except there's noting acceptable about it. The only people who find it acceptable are the crazy bastards that are already members of the groups.
That's different from Antifa. There are many on the left who support and defend Antifa quite openly. But Antifa is no better than the KKK.

OK.. nobody jump down my throat because I'm trying to understand this...
How is Antifa equivalent to the KKK? Their stated cause is to limit the platform of far-right extremists/white nationalists/etc. I personally find their methods unacceptable.
But no better than the KKK? Help me understand your statement.

I do not believe that Antifa's "stated" cause is actually their reason for existence. Their activities extend far beyond anything that could reasonably be described as limiting the platform of far-right extremists/white nationalists/etc. They exist to push communist propaganda.

If I existed to push communist propaganda, I would find something else to claim as my "stated" cause, wouldn't you?

(05-06-2019 08:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 07:58 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 09:55 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  As I said, as I see it the "point" of antifa is to deny a platform for right-wing extremists.

No, the point of Antifa is to use that excuse as a basis for a platform for left-wing extremists.

Quote:What is the point of white nationalism? Basically white separatism?

I have no idea. I see no point to it. Just as I see no point to Antifa, except as a platform for commie left wingers.

The point of many of the alt-right groups is to provide a public, acceptable face, for white nationalists.

I don't think so.

That might be the point of changing their name from White America Forever to Patriots Forever.

It's all about racism to you guys. Lots of reasons to be on the far right, only one of which, sometimes, is white nationalism.

White nationalists are such a tiny minority in this country, and their presence has been overblown by the left. Got to have a boogeyman to fight.

When I was a student, the leader of the American Nazi Party, George Lincoln Rockwell, came to Rice to give a talk. He was received politely, and a large number of students (50 or so) met with him after dinner in our commons to discuss. As near as I could tell, nobody was there to affirm his position, all were there to question it. Politely. Without masks and violence. We didn't burn a single dumpster in protest, didn't break a single window, didn't mace a single photographer.

When he was assassinated later that year, it turned out the membership in his organization was in the low double digits. He got way more coverage than his organization merited. I think the same is true of the KKK and other racist groups.

(05-06-2019 10:31 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 10:20 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:22 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 07:58 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  No, the point of Antifa is to use that excuse as a basis for a platform for left-wing extremists.
I have no idea. I see no point to it. Just as I see no point to Antifa, except as a platform for commie left wingers.

The point of many of the alt-right groups is to provide a public, acceptable face, for white nationalists.

Except there's noting acceptable about it. The only people who find it acceptable are the crazy bastards that are already members of the groups.
That's different from Antifa. There are many on the left who support and defend Antifa quite openly. But Antifa is no better than the KKK.

OK.. nobody jump down my throat because I'm trying to understand this...
How is Antifa equivalent to the KKK? Their stated cause is to limit the platform of far-right extremists/white nationalists/etc. I personally find their methods unacceptable.
But no better than the KKK? Help me understand your statement.

I do not believe that Antifa's "stated" cause is actually their reason for existence. Their activities extend far beyond anything that could reasonably be described as limiting the platform of far-right extremists/white nationalists/etc. They exist to push communist propaganda.

If I existed to push communist propaganda, I would find something else to claim as my "stated" cause, wouldn't you?

I seem to hear about them only in reference to clashes with white nationalists. What else do they do to push propaganda?

With what white nationalists were they clashing in Portland? I just saw one-sided mayhem and destruction.

And they have many activities, including online, to push an agenda. If you want to believe that they are not evil people pushing a sinister agenda, I suppose you can do that. I'll not be joining you.

(05-06-2019 10:36 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 10:31 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 10:20 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:22 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  The point of many of the alt-right groups is to provide a public, acceptable face, for white nationalists.

Except there's noting acceptable about it. The only people who find it acceptable are the crazy bastards that are already members of the groups.
That's different from Antifa. There are many on the left who support and defend Antifa quite openly. But Antifa is no better than the KKK.

OK.. nobody jump down my throat because I'm trying to understand this...
How is Antifa equivalent to the KKK? Their stated cause is to limit the platform of far-right extremists/white nationalists/etc. I personally find their methods unacceptable.
But no better than the KKK? Help me understand your statement.

I do not believe that Antifa's "stated" cause is actually their reason for existence. Their activities extend far beyond anything that could reasonably be described as limiting the platform of far-right extremists/white nationalists/etc. They exist to push communist propaganda.

If I existed to push communist propaganda, I would find something else to claim as my "stated" cause, wouldn't you?

I seem to hear about them only in reference to clashes with white nationalists. What else do they do to push propaganda?

If they define everybody they protest against as "white nationalists", I guess your statement would be correct.

Antifa

They often denounce capitalism and government. Since Trump entered the world stage, they've condemned his push to tighten immigration rules

If you come down on the side of wearing masks and committing violence, you are probably going to come down on the wrong side. MLK and Ghandi did not commit violence. Rosa Parks did not wear a mask.

You are either for them or against them. I am against them. You?

(05-06-2019 10:36 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 10:31 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 10:20 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:22 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  The point of many of the alt-right groups is to provide a public, acceptable face, for white nationalists.

Except there's noting acceptable about it. The only people who find it acceptable are the crazy bastards that are already members of the groups.
That's different from Antifa. There are many on the left who support and defend Antifa quite openly. But Antifa is no better than the KKK.

OK.. nobody jump down my throat because I'm trying to understand this...
How is Antifa equivalent to the KKK? Their stated cause is to limit the platform of far-right extremists/white nationalists/etc. I personally find their methods unacceptable.
But no better than the KKK? Help me understand your statement.

I do not believe that Antifa's "stated" cause is actually their reason for existence. Their activities extend far beyond anything that could reasonably be described as limiting the platform of far-right extremists/white nationalists/etc. They exist to push communist propaganda.

If I existed to push communist propaganda, I would find something else to claim as my "stated" cause, wouldn't you?

I seem to hear about them only in reference to clashes with white nationalists. What else do they do to push propaganda?

Twice in the last year they have moved to shut down Portland streets with unpermitted marches. Most notably on Oct 8 2018 when they shut down several streets in downtown Portland and bullied motorists in the area.

Antifa was part of the Occupy ICE that seized and occupied the Portland ICE building in June 2018. Ties in nicely with the Antifa march last week that precipitated the current brawl, which was explicitly an anti-ICE march/protest.

That is just Portland. So, their stated cause of being 'anti-white supremacist' really doesnt pass the smell test with those incidents. Unless all Portland downtown commuters are white supremacists, and ICE is white supremacists.

In short, Antifa is just an anti-Trump group who feel the right to violate the law and commit acts of violence and mass civil disobedience because 'Orange Man Bad'.

Yet people seem to laud them. It is a bunch of twerpy wannabe thugs who elevate their displeasure at Orange Man into mass lawbreaking and an excuse to commit violence against those who disagree with them, all the while trying to remain anonymous. In short, a bunch of millenial proto-fascists who are willing to threaten and commit violence against those who disagree with them, but wrap themselves in the very thin veneer of being 'anti white supremacist'.

Turning to another tangent:

Anyone else interested in the somewhat gaping omission in the Mueller Report? I mean, the Steele Dossier was *the* item that ignited the FISA warrant *and* the initial FBI investigation into Trump and those associated with Trump.

Guess how many times that is mentioned in the Mueller report? Seems to be a massive gaping omission or overlook there......

Very reminiscent of 1917 Russia.

I think, for most of them, it is just a way to rampage and break things in a socially acceptable manner (it's for a good cause!) Hoodlums with a Robin Hood complex.

I would not feel safe around them. If 93 is white, he would not be safe. white guy, no mask = white nationalist. Kick his ass!!!

(05-06-2019 11:33 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 10:36 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 10:31 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 10:20 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:22 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Except there's noting acceptable about it. The only people who find it acceptable are the crazy bastards that are already members of the groups.
That's different from Antifa. There are many on the left who support and defend Antifa quite openly. But Antifa is no better than the KKK.

OK.. nobody jump down my throat because I'm trying to understand this...
How is Antifa equivalent to the KKK? Their stated cause is to limit the platform of far-right extremists/white nationalists/etc. I personally find their methods unacceptable.
But no better than the KKK? Help me understand your statement.

I do not believe that Antifa's "stated" cause is actually their reason for existence. Their activities extend far beyond anything that could reasonably be described as limiting the platform of far-right extremists/white nationalists/etc. They exist to push communist propaganda.

If I existed to push communist propaganda, I would find something else to claim as my "stated" cause, wouldn't you?

I seem to hear about them only in reference to clashes with white nationalists. What else do they do to push propaganda?

Twice in the last year they have moved to shut down Portland streets with unpermitted marches. Most notably on Oct 8 2018 when they shut down several streets in downtown Portland and bullied motorists in the area.

Antifa was part of the Occupy ICE that seized and occupied the Portland ICE building in June 2018. Ties in nicely with the Antifa march last week that precipitated the current brawl, which was explicitly an anti-ICE march/protest.

That is just Portland. So, their stated cause of being 'anti-white supremacist' really doesnt pass the smell test with those incidents. Unless all Portland downtown commuters are white supremacists, and ICE is white supremacists.

In short, Antifa is just an anti-Trump group who feel the right to violate the law and commit acts of violence and mass civil disobedience because 'Orange Man Bad'.

Yet people seem to laud them. It is a bunch of twerpy wannabe thugs who elevate their displeasure at Orange Man into mass lawbreaking and an excuse to commit violence against those who disagree with them, all the while trying to remain anonymous. In short, a bunch of millenial proto-fascists who are willing to threaten and commit violence against those who disagree with them, but wrap themselves in the very thin veneer of being 'anti white supremacist'.

Thanks for the information. I wasn't aware of these activities.

(05-06-2019 10:44 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  With what white nationalists were they clashing in Portland? I just saw one-sided mayhem and destruction.

And they have many activities, including online, to push an agenda. If you want to believe that they are not evil people pushing a sinister agenda, I suppose you can do that. I'll not be joining you.

Not defending them - but we have already gone over the most recent acts in Portland, so not sure why you’re saying it was one-sides. Antifa held a May Day protest/parade. Following that, some members went to a bar. An alt-right group (the Prayer people - whatever they were called) came to that bar searching out the Antifa group and began to provoke them. Antifa reacted and escalated the situation.

(05-06-2019 08:22 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 07:58 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 09:55 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  As I said, as I see it the "point" of antifa is to deny a platform for right-wing extremists.

No, the point of Antifa is to use that excuse as a basis for a platform for left-wing extremists.

Quote:What is the point of white nationalism? Basically white separatism?

I have no idea. I see no point to it. Just as I see no point to Antifa, except as a platform for commie left wingers.

The point of many of the alt-right groups is to provide a public, acceptable face, for white nationalists.

Except there's noting acceptable about it. The only people who find it acceptable are the crazy bastards that are already members of the groups.

That's different from Antifa. There are many on the left who support and defend Antifa quite openly. But Antifa is no better than the KKK.

You’re missing my point about some alt-right groups. Those groups proclaim to be conservative, for causes X, Y, and Z, and do not explicitly spout overt racism. And because of that, they appear benign on the surface and provide safe harbor for racists and white supremacists who are gaming the system.

There was a very interesting article the other day on Buzzfeed profiling a woman who fit in that category perfectly and has since changed her ways. She basically provided a fascinating perspective into the underbelly of these facades that people like Richard Spencer had been building at great speeds for a while.

(05-06-2019 01:30 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 10:44 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  With what white nationalists were they clashing in Portland? I just saw one-sided mayhem and destruction.

And they have many activities, including online, to push an agenda. If you want to believe that they are not evil people pushing a sinister agenda, I suppose you can do that. I'll not be joining you.

Not defending them - but we have already gone over the most recent acts in Portland, so not sure why you’re saying it was one-sides. Antifa held a May Day protest/parade. Following that, some members went to a bar. An alt-right group (the Prayer people - whatever they were called) came to that bar searching out the Antifa group and began to provoke them. Antifa reacted and escalated the situation.

Agree. In no way was this one-sided mayhem. Patriot Prayer (discussed to death already) as well as the Proud Boys (certainly a white nationalist group) were involved in the skirmish.

(05-06-2019 01:34 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:22 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 07:58 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 09:55 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  As I said, as I see it the "point" of antifa is to deny a platform for right-wing extremists.

No, the point of Antifa is to use that excuse as a basis for a platform for left-wing extremists.

Quote:What is the point of white nationalism? Basically white separatism?

I have no idea. I see no point to it. Just as I see no point to Antifa, except as a platform for commie left wingers.

The point of many of the alt-right groups is to provide a public, acceptable face, for white nationalists.

Except there's noting acceptable about it. The only people who find it acceptable are the crazy bastards that are already members of the groups.

That's different from Antifa. There are many on the left who support and defend Antifa quite openly. But Antifa is no better than the KKK.

You’re missing my point about some alt-right groups. Those groups proclaim to be conservative, for causes X, Y, and Z, and do not explicitly spout overt racism. And because of that, they appear benign on the surface and provide safe harbor for racists and white supremacists who are gaming the system.

There was a very interesting article the other day on Buzzfeed profiling a woman who fit in that category perfectly and has since changed her ways. She basically provided a fascinating perspective into the underbelly of these facades that people like Richard Spencer had been building at great speeds for a while.

But seemingly even when a group denounces racism and white supremacy they are deemed as such no matter.

In your mind any brash group who holds rightist views are 'alt right' *and* therefore racist? This seems precisely what you are implying above.

Beautiful little fishing net to construct to 'pre-damn' any and all groups that might be identified as 'alt right'. And, to hell with what they explicitly say. Nice preformed construct you got yourself there, lad. If that is the case, the SPLC has a nice job for you.......

(05-06-2019 01:30 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 10:44 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  With what white nationalists were they clashing in Portland? I just saw one-sided mayhem and destruction.

And they have many activities, including online, to push an agenda. If you want to believe that they are not evil people pushing a sinister agenda, I suppose you can do that. I'll not be joining you.

Not defending them - but we have already gone over the most recent acts in Portland, so not sure why you’re saying it was one-sides. Antifa held a May Day protest/parade. Following that, some members went to a bar. An alt-right group (the Prayer people - whatever they were called) came to that bar searching out the Antifa group and began to provoke them. Antifa reacted and escalated the situation.

Actually a May Day Anti-ICE march, to be specific.

Interesting. We have three right-wingers saying white nationalism is wrong, and two lefties making excuses for Antifa.

(05-06-2019 03:05 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Interesting. We have three right-wingers saying white nationalism is wrong, and two lefties making excuses for Antifa.

I think you'll see that I've been trying to expand my understanding of Antifa and asking for the convervative viewpoint on them. Please let me know which excuses I was making for them.

(05-06-2019 02:58 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 01:34 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:22 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 07:58 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  No, the point of Antifa is to use that excuse as a basis for a platform for left-wing extremists.
I have no idea. I see no point to it. Just as I see no point to Antifa, except as a platform for commie left wingers.

The point of many of the alt-right groups is to provide a public, acceptable face, for white nationalists.

Except there's noting acceptable about it. The only people who find it acceptable are the crazy bastards that are already members of the groups.

That's different from Antifa. There are many on the left who support and defend Antifa quite openly. But Antifa is no better than the KKK.

You’re missing my point about some alt-right groups. Those groups proclaim to be conservative, for causes X, Y, and Z, and do not explicitly spout overt racism. And because of that, they appear benign on the surface and provide safe harbor for racists and white supremacists who are gaming the system.

There was a very interesting article the other day on Buzzfeed profiling a woman who fit in that category perfectly and has since changed her ways. She basically provided a fascinating perspective into the underbelly of these facades that people like Richard Spencer had been building at great speeds for a while.

But seemingly even when a group denounces racism and white supremacy they are deemed as such no matter.

In your mind any brash group who holds rightist views are 'alt right' *and* therefore racist? This seems precisely what you are implying above.

Beautiful little fishing net to construct to 'pre-damn' any and all groups that might be identified as 'alt right'. And, to hell with what they explicitly say. Nice preformed construct you got yourself there, lad. If that is the case, the SPLC has a nice job for you.......

Notice how I said some and not all?

(05-06-2019 03:32 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 03:05 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Interesting. We have three right-wingers saying white nationalism is wrong, and two lefties making excuses for Antifa.

I think you'll see that I've been trying to expand my understanding of Antifa and asking for the convervative viewpoint on them. Please let me know which excuses I was making for them.

Yes, you do seem to be diligently working on that, but it was you who said "I seem to hear about them only in reference to clashes with white nationalists".

I think you know better now. I do appreciate your willingness to listen and learn.

(05-06-2019 03:44 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 02:58 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 01:34 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:22 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  The point of many of the alt-right groups is to provide a public, acceptable face, for white nationalists.

Except there's noting acceptable about it. The only people who find it acceptable are the crazy bastards that are already members of the groups.

That's different from Antifa. There are many on the left who support and defend Antifa quite openly. But Antifa is no better than the KKK.

You’re missing my point about some alt-right groups. Those groups proclaim to be conservative, for causes X, Y, and Z, and do not explicitly spout overt racism. And because of that, they appear benign on the surface and provide safe harbor for racists and white supremacists who are gaming the system.

There was a very interesting article the other day on Buzzfeed profiling a woman who fit in that category perfectly and has since changed her ways. She basically provided a fascinating perspective into the underbelly of these facades that people like Richard Spencer had been building at great speeds for a while.

But seemingly even when a group denounces racism and white supremacy they are deemed as such no matter.

In your mind any brash group who holds rightist views are 'alt right' *and* therefore racist? This seems precisely what you are implying above.

Beautiful little fishing net to construct to 'pre-damn' any and all groups that might be identified as 'alt right'. And, to hell with what they explicitly say. Nice preformed construct you got yourself there, lad. If that is the case, the SPLC has a nice job for you.......

Notice how I said some and not all?

I also noticed how you changed from 'many' to 'some'? Your numbers seem to drift fairly unpredictably --

You noting 'many' in the first instance tends to tell me that you think the ones that do not are actually few and far between. Which ties in with my comments on your preformed construct as well.

(05-06-2019 04:42 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 03:44 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 02:58 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 01:34 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:22 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Except there's noting acceptable about it. The only people who find it acceptable are the crazy bastards that are already members of the groups.

That's different from Antifa. There are many on the left who support and defend Antifa quite openly. But Antifa is no better than the KKK.

You’re missing my point about some alt-right groups. Those groups proclaim to be conservative, for causes X, Y, and Z, and do not explicitly spout overt racism. And because of that, they appear benign on the surface and provide safe harbor for racists and white supremacists who are gaming the system.

There was a very interesting article the other day on Buzzfeed profiling a woman who fit in that category perfectly and has since changed her ways. She basically provided a fascinating perspective into the underbelly of these facades that people like Richard Spencer had been building at great speeds for a while.

But seemingly even when a group denounces racism and white supremacy they are deemed as such no matter.

In your mind any brash group who holds rightist views are 'alt right' *and* therefore racist? This seems precisely what you are implying above.

Beautiful little fishing net to construct to 'pre-damn' any and all groups that might be identified as 'alt right'. And, to hell with what they explicitly say. Nice preformed construct you got yourself there, lad. If that is the case, the SPLC has a nice job for you.......

Notice how I said some and not all?

I also noticed how you changed from 'many' to 'some'? Your numbers seem to drift fairly unpredictably --

You noting 'many' in the first instance tends to tell me that you think the ones that do not are actually few and far between. Which ties in with my comments on your preformed construct as well.

Many is still not all. You really like to split hairs here, huh?