(05-05-2019 07:10 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 06:41 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 05:02 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 04:48 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 01:36 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  For the most part, I am not a fan of their messaging nor their methods. In terms of redemptive qualities, though, there is the fact that they are strongly opposed to white nationalists?

This brings up something I have noticed in all the lefties here - everything seems predicated of racism.

I am a conservative who opposes racism, and a lot of other isms as well. Yet sometimes it seems the left thinks they are the only ones opposing racism and all who oppose the left are racists - thus the statements about the basket of delporables, or Obama's statement (And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.}

Antipathy toward people who aren't like them? Seven words to call us racist.

heck, what does the name Antifa mean?

.

I can see how you feel this way. I have a similar feeling that the right thinks that they are the only ones who are patriotic or that support members of our military.

I can understand that. So which presidential candidate said you were in a basket of unpatriotic military nonsupporters.

I didnt know that 'unpatriotic' or 'not a military supporter' means not worthy of even contempt.

Glad to know that is a direct equivalence.

I know the National Socialists regarded the Juden as beneath even contempt. I guess they should have added the 'not support the military' perjorative to drive it really home.

The horrors of being noted as 'not a military supporter'? How do you make it day-to-day with that level or vitriol and opinion of your literal basic humanity directly transmitted to you. You are so brave.

This is unnecessary.

(05-05-2019 07:05 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  more idealism to the left.

But that is just me. Don't shout me down, masked man.

But in no way are there more boycotts!

On a completely different note... Trump's tariff talk looks likely to completely tank the market this week.

(05-05-2019 07:10 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 06:41 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 05:02 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 04:48 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 01:36 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  For the most part, I am not a fan of their messaging nor their methods. In terms of redemptive qualities, though, there is the fact that they are strongly opposed to white nationalists?

This brings up something I have noticed in all the lefties here - everything seems predicated of racism.

I am a conservative who opposes racism, and a lot of other isms as well. Yet sometimes it seems the left thinks they are the only ones opposing racism and all who oppose the left are racists - thus the statements about the basket of delporables, or Obama's statement (And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.}

Antipathy toward people who aren't like them? Seven words to call us racist.

heck, what does the name Antifa mean?

.

I can see how you feel this way. I have a similar feeling that the right thinks that they are the only ones who are patriotic or that support members of our military.

I can understand that. So which presidential candidate said you were in a basket of unpatriotic military nonsupporters.

I didnt know that 'unpatriotic' or 'not a military supporter' means not worthy of even contempt.

Glad to know that is a direct equivalence.

I know the National Socialists regarded the Juden as beneath even contempt. I guess they should have added the 'not support the military' perjorative to drive it really home.

The horrors of being noted as 'not a military supporter'? How do you make it day-to-day with that level or vitriol and opinion of your literal basic humanity directly transmitted to you. You are so brave.

I do remember one future President who said "I loathe the military". A lot of people think highly of him. Better President, IMO, than our Naval Academy grad.

(05-05-2019 07:18 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  On a completely different note... Trump's tariff talk looks likely to completely tank the market this week.

Things I wish Trump would do:
1) Drop the tariffs talk and go for a consumption tax that would have the effect of leveling a lot of global trade playing fields, while balancing the budget and letting us lower and flatten income tax rates; we could balance our budget with consumption taxes, personal income taxes, and corporate taxes all well below world rates, and that would make us a magnet for investment and growth throughout the foreseeable future;
2) Come out for legalization or decriminalization of drug usage; the "War on Drugs" is over and we lost
3) Put together a comprehensive immigration plan that a) makes legal immigration much easier and more common, on a merit basis, while it b) provides all the tools needed to shut down illegal immigration, and c) solves the problem of those illegals already here with permanent guest worker status but no path to citizenship.

I don't think he will do any of those. If not, would I still prefer him over any democrat in the field? Yes, by leaps and bounds.

(05-05-2019 06:43 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 06:27 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 06:09 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 05:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 03:05 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Is it a redemptive quality for white nationalists that they are seemingly strongly opposed to the violent neo-marxists and the violent anarchists?

93, care to take a crack at the above question that you seemingly overlooked?

Or are you giving your 'cool' Antifa a pass in the same manner that you seek to paint the opposite side?

Honesty, if you are going to laud 'antifa' because they are 'strongly opposed to white nationalists', I find it very strange that you would fail to mention the opposite.

Personally I find both groups absolute fing scumbags --- and really find zero redemption for *either* the white nationalists *or* the violent neo-marxists and/or neo-anarchists for their mutual hatred of one another.

I find it pretty telling that when you stop to toss a bone to antifa for the 'strong[] opposition' to a bunch of scumbags, that you apparently do not find that bone for the white nationalists for the 'strong[] opposition' to the shitbirds you find a streak of redemption for.

Viewpoint based inconsistency I guess.

Sure... the opposite side of the coin will show that one redemptive quality of white nationalists is their opposition to violent neo-Marxists. Their many less-than-redemptive qualities hugely outweigh this redemptive quality, though. IMO much more so than the less-than-redemptive qualities of antifa does.

I was not "lauding" antifa... I was responding to the post which stated that there is not a single redemptive quality of this group.

I am with you in that I wish both antifa and the alt-right groups would disappear off of the face of the earth.

"I am with you in that I wish both antifa and the alt-right groups would disappear off of the face of the earth" . . . but based on the bolded, if you had to pick one to stick around, it would be antifa, huh?

I have been watching this ping pong match and what I am seeing is that the conservatives here don't have a problem equally condemning these two collections of s**tbags. Why are you finding it so hard? You're doing about as well as Trump did with Charlottesville . . . which I have no doubt you criticized him for.

Yes. I think that white nationalists are worse than the Antifa. I don’t like either of them as is clear from my posts. But if you have a gun to my head and ask me which is worse then I will go with white nationalists. How about you?

Ha ha. This is real simple, dude. They're both beyond the pale. No point in parsing degrees of evil between Nazis and Communists, gonorrhea and syphilis, or (for me) UT and A&M. Simply say something on the order of neither is to be supported, neither makes the earth a better place one whit, and move on.

And if you think Trump's similar unforced error re: Charlottesville says something about where his heart truly lies (do you?), should I not draw similarly unflattering conclusions about yours?

(05-05-2019 06:43 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Yes. I think that white nationalists are worse than the Antifa. I don’t like either of them as is clear from my posts. But if you have a gun to my head and ask me which is worse then I will go with white nationalists. How about you?

I disagree. I don't want either. If white nationalists are Nazis, then Antifa are communists. My father and his generation fought a world war to rid us of the evils of the swastika. My generation and I fought a cold war to rid us of the evils of the hammer and sickle. We won both those wars. I can't imagine a reason why giving in to either would be anything less than devastatingly bad.

Why do you--or anyone--think either one is better or worse than the other? I really can't conceive or imagine a reason why.

(05-05-2019 07:29 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 06:43 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 06:27 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 06:09 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 05:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  93, care to take a crack at the above question that you seemingly overlooked?

Or are you giving your 'cool' Antifa a pass in the same manner that you seek to paint the opposite side?

Honesty, if you are going to laud 'antifa' because they are 'strongly opposed to white nationalists', I find it very strange that you would fail to mention the opposite.

Personally I find both groups absolute fing scumbags --- and really find zero redemption for *either* the white nationalists *or* the violent neo-marxists and/or neo-anarchists for their mutual hatred of one another.

I find it pretty telling that when you stop to toss a bone to antifa for the 'strong[] opposition' to a bunch of scumbags, that you apparently do not find that bone for the white nationalists for the 'strong[] opposition' to the shitbirds you find a streak of redemption for.

Viewpoint based inconsistency I guess.

Sure... the opposite side of the coin will show that one redemptive quality of white nationalists is their opposition to violent neo-Marxists. Their many less-than-redemptive qualities hugely outweigh this redemptive quality, though. IMO much more so than the less-than-redemptive qualities of antifa does.

I was not "lauding" antifa... I was responding to the post which stated that there is not a single redemptive quality of this group.

I am with you in that I wish both antifa and the alt-right groups would disappear off of the face of the earth.

"I am with you in that I wish both antifa and the alt-right groups would disappear off of the face of the earth" . . . but based on the bolded, if you had to pick one to stick around, it would be antifa, huh?

I have been watching this ping pong match and what I am seeing is that the conservatives here don't have a problem equally condemning these two collections of s**tbags. Why are you finding it so hard? You're doing about as well as Trump did with Charlottesville . . . which I have no doubt you criticized him for.

Yes. I think that white nationalists are worse than the Antifa. I don’t like either of them as is clear from my posts. But if you have a gun to my head and ask me which is worse then I will go with white nationalists. How about you?

Ha ha. This is real simple, dude. They're both beyond the pale. No point in parsing degrees of evil between Nazis and Communists, gonorrhea and syphilis, or (for me) UT and A&M. Simply say something on the order of neither is to be supported, neither makes the earth a better place one whit, and move on.

And if you think Trump's similar unforced error re: Charlottesville says something about where his heart truly lies (do you?), should I not draw similarly unflattering conclusions about yours?

Your point is well-taken and maybe it doesn't make a lot of sense to try to point out which side is "more evil".

Maybe a dumb question... but what is the platform of the antifa? I was under the impression that the goal was to deny a platform for right-wing extremists. Do you have a different read? Many on this board are suggesting that antifa = communism? Is this true? I don't really think that it is part of their platform, although many members of antifa may end up being anti-capitalist.

(05-05-2019 07:34 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 06:43 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Yes. I think that white nationalists are worse than the Antifa. I don’t like either of them as is clear from my posts. But if you have a gun to my head and ask me which is worse then I will go with white nationalists. How about you?

I disagree. I don't want either. If white nationalists are Nazis, then Antifa are communists. My father and his generation fought a world war to rid us of the evils of the swastika. My generation and I fought a cold war to rid us of the evils of the hammer and sickle. We won both those wars. I can't imagine a reason why giving in to either would be anything less than devastatingly bad.

Why do you--or anyone--think either one is better or worse than the other? I really can't conceive or imagine a reason why.

Again, I'm not sure that it is so simple as White Nationalists : Nazis :: Antifa : Communists

(05-05-2019 07:50 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 07:29 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 06:43 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 06:27 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 06:09 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Sure... the opposite side of the coin will show that one redemptive quality of white nationalists is their opposition to violent neo-Marxists. Their many less-than-redemptive qualities hugely outweigh this redemptive quality, though. IMO much more so than the less-than-redemptive qualities of antifa does.

I was not "lauding" antifa... I was responding to the post which stated that there is not a single redemptive quality of this group.

I am with you in that I wish both antifa and the alt-right groups would disappear off of the face of the earth.

"I am with you in that I wish both antifa and the alt-right groups would disappear off of the face of the earth" . . . but based on the bolded, if you had to pick one to stick around, it would be antifa, huh?

I have been watching this ping pong match and what I am seeing is that the conservatives here don't have a problem equally condemning these two collections of s**tbags. Why are you finding it so hard? You're doing about as well as Trump did with Charlottesville . . . which I have no doubt you criticized him for.

Yes. I think that white nationalists are worse than the Antifa. I don’t like either of them as is clear from my posts. But if you have a gun to my head and ask me which is worse then I will go with white nationalists. How about you?

Ha ha. This is real simple, dude. They're both beyond the pale. No point in parsing degrees of evil between Nazis and Communists, gonorrhea and syphilis, or (for me) UT and A&M. Simply say something on the order of neither is to be supported, neither makes the earth a better place one whit, and move on.

And if you think Trump's similar unforced error re: Charlottesville says something about where his heart truly lies (do you?), should I not draw similarly unflattering conclusions about yours?

Your point is well-taken and maybe it doesn't make a lot of sense to try to point out which side is "more evil".

Maybe a dumb question... but what is the platform of the antifa? I was under the impression that the goal was to deny a platform for right-wing extremists.

I would think that would be the main platform, yes. Along with the embracing of violent means to do so if they deem that necessary.

Is denying anyone the ability to extol their point of view through the use or threat of violence laudable or justifiable in *any* circumstance in your point of view?

Look I am *not* a fan of white supremacists, but to deny them a platform through use or threat of force is really pretty sickening overall. But I am an idiot that actually believes not just in the 1st Amendment (which isnt applicable here because Antifa is a private party), but having a platform that states 'I have the right and ability to deny *you* the ability to state your point of view by means of force' isnt just sick, it is kind of deplorable.

And note again, you dont limit your argument to 'white supremacists', but to 'right wing extremists'. Well, one 'right wing extremist' point of view is that the US should *not* be a member of the UN. Do you support the view that one calling for the US renouncing membership in the UN should be subject to physical threat and violence?

To be honest, your (very) casual intermingling of 'extreme right' and 'white supremacist' is highly troubling, to be honest.

Quote:Do you have a different read? Many on this board are suggesting that antifa = communism? Is this true? I don't really think that it is part of their platform, although many members of antifa may end up being anti-capitalist.

I think you would be correct that all might not be Marxists. I would posit that many are, and that Marxism is the antithesis of capitalism. So I would think it safe to say that Marxism *is* anti-capitalism, and capitalism can be safely noted as anti-Marxist.

That is reason I noted them be neo-Marxists, and not necessarily communist, to be honest.

(05-05-2019 07:16 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 07:10 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 06:41 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 05:02 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 04:48 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  This brings up something I have noticed in all the lefties here - everything seems predicated of racism.

I am a conservative who opposes racism, and a lot of other isms as well. Yet sometimes it seems the left thinks they are the only ones opposing racism and all who oppose the left are racists - thus the statements about the basket of delporables, or Obama's statement (And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.}

Antipathy toward people who aren't like them? Seven words to call us racist.

heck, what does the name Antifa mean?

.

I can see how you feel this way. I have a similar feeling that the right thinks that they are the only ones who are patriotic or that support members of our military.

I can understand that. So which presidential candidate said you were in a basket of unpatriotic military nonsupporters.

I didnt know that 'unpatriotic' or 'not a military supporter' means not worthy of even contempt.

Glad to know that is a direct equivalence.

I know the National Socialists regarded the Juden as beneath even contempt. I guess they should have added the 'not support the military' perjorative to drive it really home.

The horrors of being noted as 'not a military supporter'? How do you make it day-to-day with that level or vitriol and opinion of your literal basic humanity directly transmitted to you. You are so brave.

This is unnecessary.

Try Alinsky #5.

(05-05-2019 07:59 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 07:34 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 06:43 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Yes. I think that white nationalists are worse than the Antifa. I don’t like either of them as is clear from my posts. But if you have a gun to my head and ask me which is worse then I will go with white nationalists. How about you?

I disagree. I don't want either. If white nationalists are Nazis, then Antifa are communists. My father and his generation fought a world war to rid us of the evils of the swastika. My generation and I fought a cold war to rid us of the evils of the hammer and sickle. We won both those wars. I can't imagine a reason why giving in to either would be anything less than devastatingly bad.
Why do you--or anyone--think either one is better or worse than the other? I really can't conceive or imagine a reason why.

Again, I'm not sure that it is so simple as White Nationalists : Nazis :: Antifa : Communists

OK, and how do you distinguish the differences?

(05-05-2019 08:38 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 07:59 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 07:34 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 06:43 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Yes. I think that white nationalists are worse than the Antifa. I don’t like either of them as is clear from my posts. But if you have a gun to my head and ask me which is worse then I will go with white nationalists. How about you?

I disagree. I don't want either. If white nationalists are Nazis, then Antifa are communists. My father and his generation fought a world war to rid us of the evils of the swastika. My generation and I fought a cold war to rid us of the evils of the hammer and sickle. We won both those wars. I can't imagine a reason why giving in to either would be anything less than devastatingly bad.
Why do you--or anyone--think either one is better or worse than the other? I really can't conceive or imagine a reason why.

Again, I'm not sure that it is so simple as White Nationalists : Nazis :: Antifa : Communists

OK, and how do you distinguish the differences?

As I said, as I see it the "point" of antifa is to deny a platform for right-wing extremists.

What is the point of white nationalism? Basically white separatism?

(05-05-2019 09:55 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 08:38 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 07:59 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 07:34 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 06:43 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Yes. I think that white nationalists are worse than the Antifa. I don’t like either of them as is clear from my posts. But if you have a gun to my head and ask me which is worse then I will go with white nationalists. How about you?

I disagree. I don't want either. If white nationalists are Nazis, then Antifa are communists. My father and his generation fought a world war to rid us of the evils of the swastika. My generation and I fought a cold war to rid us of the evils of the hammer and sickle. We won both those wars. I can't imagine a reason why giving in to either would be anything less than devastatingly bad.
Why do you--or anyone--think either one is better or worse than the other? I really can't conceive or imagine a reason why.

Again, I'm not sure that it is so simple as White Nationalists : Nazis :: Antifa : Communists

OK, and how do you distinguish the differences?

As I said, as I see it the "point" of antifa is to deny a platform for right-wing extremists.

What is the point of white nationalism? Basically white separatism?

Problem is, they see everybody on the right as an extremist.

I think the point of white/black separatism is to fell superior to somebody. It seems most of those in either camp have little to brag about.

(05-05-2019 09:55 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 08:38 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 07:59 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 07:34 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 06:43 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Yes. I think that white nationalists are worse than the Antifa. I don’t like either of them as is clear from my posts. But if you have a gun to my head and ask me which is worse then I will go with white nationalists. How about you?

I disagree. I don't want either. If white nationalists are Nazis, then Antifa are communists. My father and his generation fought a world war to rid us of the evils of the swastika. My generation and I fought a cold war to rid us of the evils of the hammer and sickle. We won both those wars. I can't imagine a reason why giving in to either would be anything less than devastatingly bad.
Why do you--or anyone--think either one is better or worse than the other? I really can't conceive or imagine a reason why.

Again, I'm not sure that it is so simple as White Nationalists : Nazis :: Antifa : Communists

OK, and how do you distinguish the differences?

As I said, as I see it the "point" of antifa is to deny a platform for right-wing extremists.

What is the point of white nationalism? Basically white separatism?

Problem is, they see everybody on the right as an extremist, probably because they see all of us as racists (and we are back to deplorables). It is not that uncommon for the left to see the entire right as racists pining for the return of 1830. Remember , the root of their name is anti-facism.

I think the point of white/black separatism is to feel superior to somebody. It seems most of those in either camp have little to brag about.

This is the photographer that got bear maced:

Yep. Trying to shut down the platform of white separatists.

(05-05-2019 09:55 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  As I said, as I see it the "point" of antifa is to deny a platform for right-wing extremists.

No, the point of Antifa is to use that excuse as a basis for a platform for left-wing extremists.

Quote:What is the point of white nationalism? Basically white separatism?

I have no idea. I see no point to it. Just as I see no point to Antifa, except as a platform for commie left wingers.

(05-06-2019 07:58 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 09:55 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  As I said, as I see it the "point" of antifa is to deny a platform for right-wing extremists.

No, the point of Antifa is to use that excuse as a basis for a platform for left-wing extremists.

Quote:What is the point of white nationalism? Basically white separatism?

I have no idea. I see no point to it. Just as I see no point to Antifa, except as a platform for commie left wingers.

The point of many of the alt-right groups is to provide a public, acceptable face, for white nationalists.

(05-06-2019 08:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 07:58 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 09:55 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  As I said, as I see it the "point" of antifa is to deny a platform for right-wing extremists.

No, the point of Antifa is to use that excuse as a basis for a platform for left-wing extremists.

Quote:What is the point of white nationalism? Basically white separatism?

I have no idea. I see no point to it. Just as I see no point to Antifa, except as a platform for commie left wingers.

The point of many of the alt-right groups is to provide a public, acceptable face, for white nationalists.

Except there's noting acceptable about it. The only people who find it acceptable are the crazy bastards that are already members of the groups.

That's different from Antifa. There are many on the left who support and defend Antifa quite openly. But Antifa is no better than the KKK.

(05-06-2019 08:22 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 08:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-06-2019 07:58 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-05-2019 09:55 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  As I said, as I see it the "point" of antifa is to deny a platform for right-wing extremists.

No, the point of Antifa is to use that excuse as a basis for a platform for left-wing extremists.

Quote:What is the point of white nationalism? Basically white separatism?

I have no idea. I see no point to it. Just as I see no point to Antifa, except as a platform for commie left wingers.

The point of many of the alt-right groups is to provide a public, acceptable face, for white nationalists.

Except there's noting acceptable about it. The only people who find it acceptable are the crazy bastards that are already members of the groups.

That's different from Antifa. There are many on the left who support and defend Antifa quite openly. But Antifa is no better than the KKK.

OK.. nobody jump down my throat because I'm trying to understand this...

How is Antifa equivalent to the KKK? Their stated cause is to limit the platform of far-right extremists/white nationalists/etc. I personally find their methods unacceptable.

But no better than the KKK? Help me understand your statement.