(01-26-2019 09:34 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  

(01-25-2019 10:27 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(01-25-2019 10:22 AM)Paul M Wrote:  So I'm gonna stick with bs then.

You do you.

Bottom line, this law in NY protects women who wanted to be pregnant, and are forced to make terrible decisions late - for those who have already lost them, those who will lose them within minutes of birth (choosing to not have them suffer or struggle), those who are forced to choose between their own life & the life of the baby, and those who have to make the decision to save at least one of a multiples birth.

This

The bs I was calling was on her bs claim that women are forced to carry a baby that has already died in the womb to term, that it's a crime to do otherwise. Total bs.

This law will enable future Dr. Gosnell’s to murder freely and legally. This also enables the church of liberalism to increase their sacrament f abortion.

Disgraceful, look for bad things to happen in NY as a consequence. One reaps what one sows.


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I’ve had to defend medical malpractice cases where it is alleged a clinician failed to recognize there was a dead fetus. If a dead fetus remains in a woman for more than a couple weeks it leads to infection. If a fetus
stays any longer it results in blood clotting, DIC, and potentially death.

(01-26-2019 11:54 AM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  This law will enable future Dr. Gosnell’s to murder freely and legally. This also enables the church of liberalism to increase their sacrament f abortion.

Disgraceful, look for bad things to happen in NY as a consequence. One reaps what one sows.


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Yep. The Dr. Gosnell types can now operate without fear

(01-25-2019 08:08 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  Abortion bad!

Yes.

General question for the pro-baby murder supporters. After 24 weeks, what medical condition might a woman face that is only solved by abortion?

(01-28-2019 07:41 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  General question for the pro-baby murder supporters. After 24 weeks, what medical condition might a woman face that is only solved by abortion?

This is the question my wife has as well....who was born 7 weeks early.

(01-28-2019 09:28 AM)ummechengr Wrote:  

(01-28-2019 07:41 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  General question for the pro-baby murder supporters. After 24 weeks, what medical condition might a woman face that is only solved by abortion?

This is the question my wife has as well....who was born 7 weeks early.

It's really common sense. The fact that no pro-abortion individuals can or will answer only further demonstrates that it isn't about the health of the mother, but about choice to commit murder rather than handle the consequences of their actions like adults.

my understanding is the definition of health or life of mother is intended to be broad to cover things like "mental health," so to leave it available for really any reason at all

It is a national disgrace.


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(01-28-2019 07:41 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  General question for the pro-baby murder supporters. After 24 weeks, what medical condition might a woman face that is only solved by abortion?

First off, no one is a "pro-baby murder supporter." People realize this isn't about women who just wake up one morning & decide the don't want to be pregnant - it is a much, much more involved, nuanced situation.

Just one example:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati...h/1644839/

Cecily Kellogg, 44, a writer who lives near Philadelphia, says that was the situation she faced when she was nearly six months pregnant with twin boys in 2004 and developed severe preeclampsia. One fetus had already died and "my liver had shut down, my kidneys had shut down and they were expecting me to start seizing at any minute," she says. The doctors said they had to quickly dilate her cervix and perform an abortion to save her. "I fought it," she says. "But they told me I would die — that it was either me and my son or just my son."


Of course, those who want to keep their head in the sand will not think this is "real" just because it's on FB, or "proof" that late-term abortions are sometimes not only needed for the health of the mother, but a more humane choice than their baby struggling.

In this case, the woman had to go to a different hospital because the one she was scheduled to go to would not perform the procedure as a Catholic hospital. That's their choice, of course, but again, in NY, this would not have been allowed, period.

(The mother's post below link - warning - the pictures are tough to see:)

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?s...08&__xts__[0]=68.ARAxtGCThTF_fz3fdH6qopIj8dvO1VhGqywilWDg_MIbkOY7SYxPC0BANFiezjbpZdXc-DmSGrYbiHE7nqM8_9P9It5r9NNHXswnsRdUJxcYXT3g7s-FlJicyT8UL5_egrEX1lW_VoKiYTlquQ5-pc7oHlQN-siSvBhNRDQcrSI1lYQCt89vAXCZ6AAonwzlvAL6AS4wXHVzO0_HlKTPhiFhd3a26ezU124J0vzHBMIwpuk&__tn__=C-R

These photos are raw. They are real. The law recently passed in New York re: late term abortion? This is what this law was passed for. It wasnt passed because people just change their minds at the end of the pregnancy and decide to kill their babies. These are pregnancies where the child can't survive. Pregnancies that threaten the mother's life. Babies that pass in the womb but hospitals wont induce until close to the due date. Caelyn was to be delivered at St Joes. It was clear he would not survive no matter what we did as his condition became worse at every scan. St Joes, being a Catholic hospital, would NOT induce the pregnancy, even though it had even become a health risk for me to continue carrying him. I had to deliver him at UW Seattle Hospital because they were the only ones willing to perform a "late term abortion" (27 weeks), because, medically, that is what we were doing. We were ending a pregnancy with the knowledge that our son would not survive. If you feel what we did was wrong, see yourself off my friend's list and away from my post. I love my son. I miss my son. I wish more than anything everyday that my son were here. I should be planning his 3rd birthday. If you think for one second I wanted to end his life, you are greatly mistaken.

Edit to add since this has been shared so many times: Caelyn had hydrops fetalis caused by a condition called Sly Syndrome. He was the 8th case to occur in the US according to our geneticist. He also had severe dwarfism, clubbed feet, and numerous other conditions.

(01-28-2019 04:57 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(01-28-2019 07:41 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  General question for the pro-baby murder supporters. After 24 weeks, what medical condition might a woman face that is only solved by abortion?

First off, no one is a "pro-baby murder supporter." People realize this isn't about women who just wake up one morning & decide the don't want to be pregnant - it is a much, much more involved, nuanced situation.

Just one example:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati...h/1644839/

Cecily Kellogg, 44, a writer who lives near Philadelphia, says that was the situation she faced when she was nearly six months pregnant with twin boys in 2004 and developed severe preeclampsia. One fetus had already died and "my liver had shut down, my kidneys had shut down and they were expecting me to start seizing at any minute," she says. The doctors said they had to quickly dilate her cervix and perform an abortion to save her. "I fought it," she says. "But they told me I would die — that it was either me and my son or just my son."


Of course, those who want to keep their head in the sand will not think this is "real" just because it's on FB, or "proof" that late-term abortions are sometimes not only needed for the health of the mother, but a more humane choice than their baby struggling.

In this case, the woman had to go to a different hospital because the one she was scheduled to go to would not perform the procedure as a Catholic hospital. That's their choice, of course, but again, in NY, this would not have been allowed, period.

(The mother's post below link - warning - the pictures are tough to see:)

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?s...08&__xts__[0]=68.ARAxtGCThTF_fz3fdH6qopIj8dvO1VhGqywilWDg_MIbkOY7SYxPC0BANFiezjbpZdXc-DmSGrYbiHE7nqM8_9P9It5r9NNHXswnsRdUJxcYXT3g7s-FlJicyT8UL5_egrEX1lW_VoKiYTlquQ5-pc7oHlQN-siSvBhNRDQcrSI1lYQCt89vAXCZ6AAonwzlvAL6AS4wXHVzO0_HlKTPhiFhd3a26ezU124J0vzHBMIwpuk&__tn__=C-R

These photos are raw. They are real. The law recently passed in New York re: late term abortion? This is what this law was passed for. It wasnt passed because people just change their minds at the end of the pregnancy and decide to kill their babies. These are pregnancies where the child can't survive. Pregnancies that threaten the mother's life. Babies that pass in the womb but hospitals wont induce until close to the due date. Caelyn was to be delivered at St Joes. It was clear he would not survive no matter what we did as his condition became worse at every scan. St Joes, being a Catholic hospital, would NOT induce the pregnancy, even though it had even become a health risk for me to continue carrying him. I had to deliver him at UW Seattle Hospital because they were the only ones willing to perform a "late term abortion" (27 weeks), because, medically, that is what we were doing. We were ending a pregnancy with the knowledge that our son would not survive. If you feel what we did was wrong, see yourself off my friend's list and away from my post. I love my son. I miss my son. I wish more than anything everyday that my son were here. I should be planning his 3rd birthday. If you think for one second I wanted to end his life, you are greatly mistaken.

Edit to add since this has been shared so many times: Caelyn had hydrops fetalis caused by a condition called Sly Syndrome. He was the 8th case to occur in the US according to our geneticist. He also had severe dwarfism, clubbed feet, and numerous other conditions.

Quit finding these rare cases, most of them it is just a form of birth control. The case you cited is justified, if the baby s already dead in the woman it needs to be removed.

Also around half of black pregnancies in NY are aborted, abortion is a great way for racists to keep numbers down. The Doc Gosnells of the world would love you.


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(01-28-2019 04:57 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(01-28-2019 07:41 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  General question for the pro-baby murder supporters. After 24 weeks, what medical condition might a woman face that is only solved by abortion?

First off, no one is a "pro-baby murder supporter." People realize this isn't about women who just wake up one morning & decide the don't want to be pregnant - it is a much, much more involved, nuanced situation.

Just one example:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati...h/1644839/

Cecily Kellogg, 44, a writer who lives near Philadelphia, says that was the situation she faced when she was nearly six months pregnant with twin boys in 2004 and developed severe preeclampsia. One fetus had already died and "my liver had shut down, my kidneys had shut down and they were expecting me to start seizing at any minute," she says. The doctors said they had to quickly dilate her cervix and perform an abortion to save her. "I fought it," she says. "But they told me I would die — that it was either me and my son or just my son."


Of course, those who want to keep their head in the sand will not think this is "real" just because it's on FB, or "proof" that late-term abortions are sometimes not only needed for the health of the mother, but a more humane choice than their baby struggling.

In this case, the woman had to go to a different hospital because the one she was scheduled to go to would not perform the procedure as a Catholic hospital. That's their choice, of course, but again, in NY, this would not have been allowed, period.

(The mother's post below link - warning - the pictures are tough to see:)

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?s...08&__xts__[0]=68.ARAxtGCThTF_fz3fdH6qopIj8dvO1VhGqywilWDg_MIbkOY7SYxPC0BANFiezjbpZdXc-DmSGrYbiHE7nqM8_9P9It5r9NNHXswnsRdUJxcYXT3g7s-FlJicyT8UL5_egrEX1lW_VoKiYTlquQ5-pc7oHlQN-siSvBhNRDQcrSI1lYQCt89vAXCZ6AAonwzlvAL6AS4wXHVzO0_HlKTPhiFhd3a26ezU124J0vzHBMIwpuk&__tn__=C-R

These photos are raw. They are real. The law recently passed in New York re: late term abortion? This is what this law was passed for. It wasnt passed because people just change their minds at the end of the pregnancy and decide to kill their babies. These are pregnancies where the child can't survive. Pregnancies that threaten the mother's life. Babies that pass in the womb but hospitals wont induce until close to the due date. Caelyn was to be delivered at St Joes. It was clear he would not survive no matter what we did as his condition became worse at every scan. St Joes, being a Catholic hospital, would NOT induce the pregnancy, even though it had even become a health risk for me to continue carrying him. I had to deliver him at UW Seattle Hospital because they were the only ones willing to perform a "late term abortion" (27 weeks), because, medically, that is what we were doing. We were ending a pregnancy with the knowledge that our son would not survive. If you feel what we did was wrong, see yourself off my friend's list and away from my post. I love my son. I miss my son. I wish more than anything everyday that my son were here. I should be planning his 3rd birthday. If you think for one second I wanted to end his life, you are greatly mistaken.

Edit to add since this has been shared so many times: Caelyn had hydrops fetalis caused by a condition called Sly Syndrome. He was the 8th case to occur in the US according to our geneticist. He also had severe dwarfism, clubbed feet, and numerous other conditions.

My wife calls BS. If one of the twins was still alive there is no reason they could not have performed a c-section and tried to save him. Would he have faced long odds due to the multiple rare conditions he was dealing with? Absolutely, but the decision was made to not even try.

(01-23-2019 10:17 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(01-23-2019 10:08 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  If God does not exist, everything is permissible. — Dostoevsky.

if God doesn't exist, it opens up choice - nuts zongo

it then becomes am I worthy of choice - hank

both dichotomies have chosen to leave that up to others....and both will shoot the dipshite that is wiling to challenge if necessary....

that's my 21st century view.....

hence, I never think about NY as a place to reside....

#fkNY

Actually if there is no God, then people will do anything to have more now. The people would do what was right in their own sight and chaos would abound in the land! I think we're pretty darned close to that already!

(01-28-2019 06:30 PM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  

(01-28-2019 04:57 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(01-28-2019 07:41 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  General question for the pro-baby murder supporters. After 24 weeks, what medical condition might a woman face that is only solved by abortion?

First off, no one is a "pro-baby murder supporter." People realize this isn't about women who just wake up one morning & decide the don't want to be pregnant - it is a much, much more involved, nuanced situation.

Just one example:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati...h/1644839/

Cecily Kellogg, 44, a writer who lives near Philadelphia, says that was the situation she faced when she was nearly six months pregnant with twin boys in 2004 and developed severe preeclampsia. One fetus had already died and "my liver had shut down, my kidneys had shut down and they were expecting me to start seizing at any minute," she says. The doctors said they had to quickly dilate her cervix and perform an abortion to save her. "I fought it," she says. "But they told me I would die — that it was either me and my son or just my son."


Of course, those who want to keep their head in the sand will not think this is "real" just because it's on FB, or "proof" that late-term abortions are sometimes not only needed for the health of the mother, but a more humane choice than their baby struggling.

In this case, the woman had to go to a different hospital because the one she was scheduled to go to would not perform the procedure as a Catholic hospital. That's their choice, of course, but again, in NY, this would not have been allowed, period.

(The mother's post below link - warning - the pictures are tough to see:)

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?s...08&__xts__[0]=68.ARAxtGCThTF_fz3fdH6qopIj8dvO1VhGqywilWDg_MIbkOY7SYxPC0BANFiezjbpZdXc-DmSGrYbiHE7nqM8_9P9It5r9NNHXswnsRdUJxcYXT3g7s-FlJicyT8UL5_egrEX1lW_VoKiYTlquQ5-pc7oHlQN-siSvBhNRDQcrSI1lYQCt89vAXCZ6AAonwzlvAL6AS4wXHVzO0_HlKTPhiFhd3a26ezU124J0vzHBMIwpuk&__tn__=C-R

These photos are raw. They are real. The law recently passed in New York re: late term abortion? This is what this law was passed for. It wasnt passed because people just change their minds at the end of the pregnancy and decide to kill their babies. These are pregnancies where the child can't survive. Pregnancies that threaten the mother's life. Babies that pass in the womb but hospitals wont induce until close to the due date. Caelyn was to be delivered at St Joes. It was clear he would not survive no matter what we did as his condition became worse at every scan. St Joes, being a Catholic hospital, would NOT induce the pregnancy, even though it had even become a health risk for me to continue carrying him. I had to deliver him at UW Seattle Hospital because they were the only ones willing to perform a "late term abortion" (27 weeks), because, medically, that is what we were doing. We were ending a pregnancy with the knowledge that our son would not survive. If you feel what we did was wrong, see yourself off my friend's list and away from my post. I love my son. I miss my son. I wish more than anything everyday that my son were here. I should be planning his 3rd birthday. If you think for one second I wanted to end his life, you are greatly mistaken.

Edit to add since this has been shared so many times: Caelyn had hydrops fetalis caused by a condition called Sly Syndrome. He was the 8th case to occur in the US according to our geneticist. He also had severe dwarfism, clubbed feet, and numerous other conditions.

Quit finding these rare cases, most of them it is just a form of birth control.

“Quit finding these cases where it applies to exactly what was asked about.”

Sorry it bothers some of you that there are indeed cases where this is warranted. NOT wanted, however.

(01-28-2019 07:37 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(01-28-2019 04:57 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(01-28-2019 07:41 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  General question for the pro-baby murder supporters. After 24 weeks, what medical condition might a woman face that is only solved by abortion?

First off, no one is a "pro-baby murder supporter." People realize this isn't about women who just wake up one morning & decide the don't want to be pregnant - it is a much, much more involved, nuanced situation.

Just one example:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati...h/1644839/

Cecily Kellogg, 44, a writer who lives near Philadelphia, says that was the situation she faced when she was nearly six months pregnant with twin boys in 2004 and developed severe preeclampsia. One fetus had already died and "my liver had shut down, my kidneys had shut down and they were expecting me to start seizing at any minute," she says. The doctors said they had to quickly dilate her cervix and perform an abortion to save her. "I fought it," she says. "But they told me I would die — that it was either me and my son or just my son."


Of course, those who want to keep their head in the sand will not think this is "real" just because it's on FB, or "proof" that late-term abortions are sometimes not only needed for the health of the mother, but a more humane choice than their baby struggling.

In this case, the woman had to go to a different hospital because the one she was scheduled to go to would not perform the procedure as a Catholic hospital. That's their choice, of course, but again, in NY, this would not have been allowed, period.

(The mother's post below link - warning - the pictures are tough to see:)

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?s...08&__xts__[0]=68.ARAxtGCThTF_fz3fdH6qopIj8dvO1VhGqywilWDg_MIbkOY7SYxPC0BANFiezjbpZdXc-DmSGrYbiHE7nqM8_9P9It5r9NNHXswnsRdUJxcYXT3g7s-FlJicyT8UL5_egrEX1lW_VoKiYTlquQ5-pc7oHlQN-siSvBhNRDQcrSI1lYQCt89vAXCZ6AAonwzlvAL6AS4wXHVzO0_HlKTPhiFhd3a26ezU124J0vzHBMIwpuk&__tn__=C-R

These photos are raw. They are real. The law recently passed in New York re: late term abortion? This is what this law was passed for. It wasnt passed because people just change their minds at the end of the pregnancy and decide to kill their babies. These are pregnancies where the child can't survive. Pregnancies that threaten the mother's life. Babies that pass in the womb but hospitals wont induce until close to the due date. Caelyn was to be delivered at St Joes. It was clear he would not survive no matter what we did as his condition became worse at every scan. St Joes, being a Catholic hospital, would NOT induce the pregnancy, even though it had even become a health risk for me to continue carrying him. I had to deliver him at UW Seattle Hospital because they were the only ones willing to perform a "late term abortion" (27 weeks), because, medically, that is what we were doing. We were ending a pregnancy with the knowledge that our son would not survive. If you feel what we did was wrong, see yourself off my friend's list and away from my post. I love my son. I miss my son. I wish more than anything everyday that my son were here. I should be planning his 3rd birthday. If you think for one second I wanted to end his life, you are greatly mistaken.

Edit to add since this has been shared so many times: Caelyn had hydrops fetalis caused by a condition called Sly Syndrome. He was the 8th case to occur in the US according to our geneticist. He also had severe dwarfism, clubbed feet, and numerous other conditions.

My wife calls BS. If one of the twins was still alive there is no reason they could not have performed a c-section and tried to save him. Would he have faced long odds due to the multiple rare conditions he was dealing with? Absolutely, but the decision was made to not even try.

With all due respect, your wife is not this mother who had all the info in front of her, nor is she the doctor who did the tests and found out just how dire the situation was. The decision was made not to have this baby suffer. I can’t judge her for that, nor should any of us.

Any of us who have lost a parent or other family member to cancer or another detrimental illness they are not going to survive knows that we would rather they go peacefully and not struggling. How could you not be compassionate to a mother not wanting to see her baby go through the same struggle?

A few more situations, since I’ve clearly just found outliers that couldn’t possibly be duplicated.

These are instances from an OBGYN (google her), As an MD, she knows more about this stuff than any of us or our spouses, I dare say. It also explains how some early indications are indeed medically referred to as “abortions” in some instances:









This isn’t about women just choosing to terminate healthy pregnancies late in the game.

Tigergreen,

I would not support any law that denied abortion in the extreme (and extremely rare) circumstances cited by the doc. But there are abortion mills that have much less integrity than that doc, and you and I both know that (or at least certainly should).

I’m supposed to have a baby tomorrow and I just changed my mind and don’t want to. Okay, sign here and we can take care of it.

That’s not what this doc is apparently doing, but the apparent fact that she isn’t does not mean that there aren’t plenty who do. So how do we shut down the abortion mills without infringing too greatly on the situations where termination really is the right answer?

(01-28-2019 11:40 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(01-28-2019 06:30 PM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  

(01-28-2019 04:57 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(01-28-2019 07:41 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  General question for the pro-baby murder supporters. After 24 weeks, what medical condition might a woman face that is only solved by abortion?

First off, no one is a "pro-baby murder supporter." People realize this isn't about women who just wake up one morning & decide the don't want to be pregnant - it is a much, much more involved, nuanced situation.

Just one example:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati...h/1644839/

Cecily Kellogg, 44, a writer who lives near Philadelphia, says that was the situation she faced when she was nearly six months pregnant with twin boys in 2004 and developed severe preeclampsia. One fetus had already died and "my liver had shut down, my kidneys had shut down and they were expecting me to start seizing at any minute," she says. The doctors said they had to quickly dilate her cervix and perform an abortion to save her. "I fought it," she says. "But they told me I would die — that it was either me and my son or just my son."


Of course, those who want to keep their head in the sand will not think this is "real" just because it's on FB, or "proof" that late-term abortions are sometimes not only needed for the health of the mother, but a more humane choice than their baby struggling.

In this case, the woman had to go to a different hospital because the one she was scheduled to go to would not perform the procedure as a Catholic hospital. That's their choice, of course, but again, in NY, this would not have been allowed, period.

(The mother's post below link - warning - the pictures are tough to see:)

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?s...08&__xts__[0]=68.ARAxtGCThTF_fz3fdH6qopIj8dvO1VhGqywilWDg_MIbkOY7SYxPC0BANFiezjbpZdXc-DmSGrYbiHE7nqM8_9P9It5r9NNHXswnsRdUJxcYXT3g7s-FlJicyT8UL5_egrEX1lW_VoKiYTlquQ5-pc7oHlQN-siSvBhNRDQcrSI1lYQCt89vAXCZ6AAonwzlvAL6AS4wXHVzO0_HlKTPhiFhd3a26ezU124J0vzHBMIwpuk&__tn__=C-R

These photos are raw. They are real. The law recently passed in New York re: late term abortion? This is what this law was passed for. It wasnt passed because people just change their minds at the end of the pregnancy and decide to kill their babies. These are pregnancies where the child can't survive. Pregnancies that threaten the mother's life. Babies that pass in the womb but hospitals wont induce until close to the due date. Caelyn was to be delivered at St Joes. It was clear he would not survive no matter what we did as his condition became worse at every scan. St Joes, being a Catholic hospital, would NOT induce the pregnancy, even though it had even become a health risk for me to continue carrying him. I had to deliver him at UW Seattle Hospital because they were the only ones willing to perform a "late term abortion" (27 weeks), because, medically, that is what we were doing. We were ending a pregnancy with the knowledge that our son would not survive. If you feel what we did was wrong, see yourself off my friend's list and away from my post. I love my son. I miss my son. I wish more than anything everyday that my son were here. I should be planning his 3rd birthday. If you think for one second I wanted to end his life, you are greatly mistaken.

Edit to add since this has been shared so many times: Caelyn had hydrops fetalis caused by a condition called Sly Syndrome. He was the 8th case to occur in the US according to our geneticist. He also had severe dwarfism, clubbed feet, and numerous other conditions.

Quit finding these rare cases, most of them it is just a form of birth control.

“Quit finding these cases where it applies to exactly what was asked about.”

Sorry it bothers some of you that there are indeed cases where this is warranted. NOT wanted, however.

As someone said, there would have been a C section and they would have saved the mother and taken a risk with the child. Once again you flunk on your examples. Don't believe everything you see on Facebook.

Still waiting for that example proving it's illegal to remove an dead child from the womb. Preferably an actual conviction in a court case. Or even a charge.