This October 2011 interview with AFA AD makes it seem like Army/Navy/Air Force to Big East was a done deal, but there was concern over Army getting cold feet. Other nuggets include AFA rejecting BXII overtures, scheduling CSU & WYO out of conference, and joining MVC for other sports.
https://www.denverpost.com/2011/10/08/ma...-big-east/

FB and mid-major BB realignment takes a bit different trajectory if this had pulled through.

I honestly thing that conference would have been a blast (even after losing Rutgers, Louisville, ND, and the C7--it still would have been fun and interesting). If they could have landed BYU it would have been even better.

Quote:“We were approached by the Big 12, and I told them we’re not a good fit for that conference. In the Big 12, geography makes sense, the economics make sense, but recruiting makes no sense for us. I can’t recruit against Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State,” Mueh said.

Interesting quote. I had not heard this before.

A couple of weeks after that Denver Post article, WVU accepted its Big 12 invitation.

Here's an AP report from a week after that:

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/7001...thers.html

Quote:The Big East is ready to start adding members after spending the last month and a half losing them.

A person familiar with the decision says the Big East will invite Boise State, Navy and Air Force for football only and SMU, Houston and Central Florida for all sports.

This report from a few weeks later says the Big East also talked to BYU, but there was no deal because BYU wanted to retain all TV rights to its home games:

http://www.espn.com/college-football/sto...ing-report

Quote:The deal-breaker was television rights. The person says BYU wanted to retain the rights to its home football games and the league could not agree to that.

And a few weeks after that, Air Force said no to the Big East, who then turned around and added San Diego State along with Boise State and the new all-sports members:

http://gazette.com/air-force-says-no-to-...cle/129756

Quote:Gould said he called Big East Conference commissioner John Marinatto last Friday and informed him Air Force would not be leaving the Mountain West.

“I told him, now is not a good time for Air Force to move to the Big East,” said Gould, who added he would like to maintain dialogue with Marinatto. “The primary draw was the potential for big TV money. Potential, I emphasize.

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/story...conference

Quote:The Big East is set to add Boise State, San Diego State, SMU, UCF and Houston as it begins to rebuild its league, with an announcement expected as early as Wednesday, sources confirmed to ESPN.com.

Boise State and San Diego State of the Mountain West will enter the league as football-only members, while Houston, SMU and UCF, all of Conference USA, will join the Big East for all sports, sources told ESPN.com.

As we know Boise State and SDSU later backed out.

Air Force wanted their basketball and other non-football sports out of the MWC because they couldn't compete. The solution was the Big East for football and the MVC for most of the rest. The MVC said "hell no, don't call us again, and please lose our number." So, Air Force decided the best thing would be to stay in the MVC. Air Force has a new commandant and AD and might be more amenable to an invitation to a P5 conference. I doubt there would be any interest in the AAC or other conference without taking their Front Range buddies with them.

I'm glad this stuff is still out there. Even after it happened, and increasing thereafter, people doubted AFA's B12 candidacy. Like, what...the FoIA wasn't evidence enough? AFA was up there with the likes of Pitt and Arkansas. Folks, the Big XII had a short list of replacements, and AFA was on that list. Yeah, hard to believe...but it was true. I guess maybe the Big East part of the story takes too much of the spotlight...I just can't believe AFA had to two major conference offers...did nothing with them. Maybe the fly boys are the biggest losers in this realignment saga.

(05-02-2018 01:07 AM)lew240z Wrote:  Air Force wanted their basketball and other non-football sports out of the MWC because they couldn't compete. The solution was the Big East for football and the MVC for most of the rest. The MVC said "hell no, don't call us again, and please lose our number." So, Air Force decided the best thing would be to stay in the MVC. Air Force has a new commandant and AD and might be more amenable to an invitation to a P5 conference. I doubt there would be any interest in the AAC or other conference without taking their Front Range buddies with them.

Air Force would be interested to join the AAC if Army was part of the AAC.

(05-02-2018 04:35 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I'm glad this stuff is still out there. Even after it happened, and increasing thereafter, people doubted AFA's B12 candidacy. Like, what...the FoIA wasn't evidence enough? AFA was up there with the likes of Pitt and Arkansas. Folks, the Big XII had a short list of replacements, and AFA was on that list. Yeah, hard to believe...but it was true. I guess maybe the Big East part of the story takes too much of the spotlight...I just can't believe AFA had to two major conference offers...did nothing with them. Maybe the fly boys are the biggest losers in this realignment saga.

The Big 12 didn't offer them any more than it offered Rice and SMU this last time. They were simply on the list. At that time, Air Force declined to participate further.

I could see Air Force and Army joining the AAC. In a division with Navy, it would let Army keep its scheduling flexibility while being in a conference with its bowl ties and give Air Force and Navy more scheduling flexibility.

(05-02-2018 07:22 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  

(05-02-2018 01:07 AM)lew240z Wrote:  Air Force wanted their basketball and other non-football sports out of the MWC because they couldn't compete. The solution was the Big East for football and the MVC for most of the rest. The MVC said "hell no, don't call us again, and please lose our number." So, Air Force decided the best thing would be to stay in the MVC. Air Force has a new commandant and AD and might be more amenable to an invitation to a P5 conference. I doubt there would be any interest in the AAC or other conference without taking their Front Range buddies with them.

Air Force would be interested to join the AAC if Army was part of the AAC.

If the Big 12 was interested in Air Force before, they probably would be now that the school has more-accepting leadership. In that case, why leave the MWC and their Front Range crew? It's not as though they need to be in the AAC to schedule Navy and Army; I have a sneaking suspicion that those games will always be on the schedule.

After Colorado and Nebraska left, I said Air Force and BYU would actually improve the league on the football field (at the time they would have). Then Texas A&M and Mizzou left and all hell broke loose.

(05-02-2018 11:44 AM)esayem Wrote:  After Colorado and Nebraska left, I said Air Force and BYU would actually improve the league on the football field (at the time they would have). Then Texas A&M and Mizzou left and all hell broke loose.

Actually what would have made the Big XII better was TCU, WVU, Louisville and Cincy. Adding the 3 best FB programs from the BCS conference Big East and the best FB program from the MWC. Also would have added 3 high quality BBall programs. Not to mention not having WVU on an island and a built in triangle rivalry.

I'm not sure they were that close. Sure there was talk, but there was a lot of talk involving a lot of parties at that time.

I believe one of the reasons Navy joined the AAC was that Air Force was getting more attention because they were in a better conference. If the AAC continues to distance itself from the rest of the G5, the ball will be in Air Force's court. Can they afford to let Navy continue to get more air time, better bowls, etc?

People also like to create scenarios where the academies are grouped together, have Navy in a west division, etc. The academies don't have unlimited budgets. They certainly aren't going to compromise academics so the basketball team can travel cross-country for a Tuesday night game.

(05-02-2018 11:07 AM)bullet Wrote:  The Big 12 didn't offer them any more than it offered Rice and SMU this last time. They were simply on the list. At that time, Air Force declined to participate further.

I could see Air Force and Army joining the AAC. In a division with Navy, it would let Army keep its scheduling flexibility while being in a conference with its bowl ties and give Air Force and Navy more scheduling flexibility.

Why belittle the point that they were called and not the ones doing the calling as most do?

That's huge, and not something to discredit.

(05-02-2018 01:08 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(05-02-2018 11:44 AM)esayem Wrote:  After Colorado and Nebraska left, I said Air Force and BYU would actually improve the league on the football field (at the time they would have). Then Texas A&M and Mizzou left and all hell broke loose.

Actually what would have made the Big XII better was TCU, WVU, Louisville and Cincy. Adding the 3 best FB programs from the BCS conference Big East and the best FB program from the MWC. Also would have added 3 high quality BBall programs. Not to mention not having WVU on an island and a built in triangle rivalry.

Absolutely. Big 12 really dropped the ball on that one. While they lost four strong programs in Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Texas &M, they could have back-filled with those four and still remained a stable and highly profitable 12-team conference (not to mention keep the CCG for the seven years it missed it). Getting those two rivals/travel partners for West Virginia would have really benefited them (and the conference). Now, West Virginia appears to be destined to be on an island for the foreseeable future.

(05-02-2018 01:57 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(05-02-2018 01:08 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(05-02-2018 11:44 AM)esayem Wrote:  After Colorado and Nebraska left, I said Air Force and BYU would actually improve the league on the football field (at the time they would have). Then Texas A&M and Mizzou left and all hell broke loose.

Actually what would have made the Big XII better was TCU, WVU, Louisville and Cincy. Adding the 3 best FB programs from the BCS conference Big East and the best FB program from the MWC. Also would have added 3 high quality BBall programs. Not to mention not having WVU on an island and a built in triangle rivalry.

Absolutely. Big 12 really dropped the ball on that one. While they lost four strong programs in Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Texas &M, they could have back-filled with those four and still remained a stable and highly profitable 12-team conference (not to mention keep the CCG for the seven years it missed it). Getting those two rivals/travel partners for West Virginia would have really benefited them (and the conference). Now, West Virginia appears to be destined to be on an island for the foreseeable future.

It's clear if they took them the Big XII would have ended up much stronger. The basketball side would have been better no doubt replacing those 4. No arguments there. On the FB side I would say that TCU, WVU, UofL and Ciny are an upgrade from NU, Mizz, CU and A&M. Not historically but where those programs were and are from that point on.

(05-02-2018 01:08 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(05-02-2018 11:44 AM)esayem Wrote:  After Colorado and Nebraska left, I said Air Force and BYU would actually improve the league on the football field (at the time they would have). Then Texas A&M and Mizzou left and all hell broke loose.

Actually what would have made the Big XII better was TCU, WVU, Louisville and Cincy. Adding the 3 best FB programs from the BCS conference Big East and the best FB program from the MWC. Also would have added 3 high quality BBall programs. Not to mention not having WVU on an island and a built in triangle rivalry.

So they got 2 out 4. L'Ville is the big loss here. So now they can get back to 12 to offset the WV island and get:

Cinn and UConn - or
Cinn and BYU - or
Cinn and USF or UCF - or
Cinn and Colorado ST - or
just go to Florida and get UCF and USF

AFA to the AAC would be awesome. There's a few things that killed it--

The Catholic 7 were still around so the best they could offer was FB only. I've said it before that I think the AAC's west coast gambit would have worked if full memberships were on the table but with 7 other non-football members in the league they simply didn't have any full memberships to give.

BYU getting greedy. Had BYU not made the outlandish demands that they did and understood that the first tv contract would be a low ball deal until the league had a change to stabilize and propose itself and then things would improve the Cougars would have been onboard and a major tent post in the new Western Pod.

Competitiveness issues and affinity for the Front Range. Supposedly AFA is very attached to the Rams, Cowboys, and Lobos. (Can some real AFA fans confirm this? I figured that as long as they had Army and Navy they didn't care wh they played.) AFA also struggles in Olympic sports and would really benefit from playing in a Patriot style league but thanks to Gonzaga a Denver/AFA combo to the WCC is a no go. If the Falcons could find an acceptable Olympic sports conference home then FB only to the AAC would be easy.

Any chance Navy and Army would have the sway to get the Patriot to go along with adding them?

(05-02-2018 04:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Any chance Navy and Army would have the sway to get the Patriot to go along with adding them?

Ha, maybe if Air Force moved their Academy east.

(05-02-2018 01:08 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(05-02-2018 11:44 AM)esayem Wrote:  After Colorado and Nebraska left, I said Air Force and BYU would actually improve the league on the football field (at the time they would have). Then Texas A&M and Mizzou left and all hell broke loose.

Actually what would have made the Big XII better was TCU, WVU, Louisville and Cincy.

When Colorado and Nebraska left, ESPN and Fox allowed the Big 12 to keep the same amount of TV money for 10 schools that they would have received for 12.

Let's say that again: The same amount of TV money for 10 schools that they would have received for 12. The Big 12 understands that X dollars divided 10 ways is more money per school than X dollars divided 12 ways.

If TV was offering the Big 12 significantly more TV money for each existing member than they now get, their decision about expansion would likely be different.

(05-02-2018 01:08 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(05-02-2018 11:44 AM)esayem Wrote:  After Colorado and Nebraska left, I said Air Force and BYU would actually improve the league on the football field (at the time they would have). Then Texas A&M and Mizzou left and all hell broke loose.

Actually what would have made the Big XII better was TCU, WVU, Louisville and Cincy. Adding the 3 best FB programs from the BCS conference Big East and the best FB program from the MWC. Also would have added 3 high quality BBall programs. Not to mention not having WVU on an island and a built in triangle rivalry.

Ah, the old Fred Jacoby plan (Louisville and Memphis/Cincinnati). Yeah, nobody listened to him in the early 90’s either. West Virginia wasn’t even in the cards until desperation mode kicked-in, much like when the ACC added Louisville. Nobody thought about adding commuter schools to replace Nebraska and CU when they left.