(04-23-2018 04:31 PM)DburgCat Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:36 PM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:25 PM)DburgCat Wrote:  

(04-20-2018 01:40 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 09:25 PM)MemphisTigerPawr Wrote:  Cal has a track record of recruiting NBA ready players and turning them into NBA ready players and taking all the credit for it.

Correct. Beat me to it.

There isn't one player that Cal has turned into an NBA player, that wasn't already an NBA player. Period.

Oh, I don't know about that. Gillispie ruined Liggins and Calipari made him an elite defender and got him to the NBA. Josh Harrellson was a nobody until Cal arrived at UK. He was picked and hung around the league a while. Marquis Teague was only drafted in the first round because of Cal. We recruit top players, so naturally a lot of them will be ready. But Cal is vastly underrated at development, as you know because you've seen it.

Imagine Antonio Anderson becoming Antonio Anderson under Tubby?

Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Cal dominates everyone on the recruiting trail (except maybe K as of late) and yet he does not dominate in terms of national championships. Three other schools have more national championships than Kentucky during Cal's nine year tenure there.

If I'm a top-level recruit determined to play for a blue blood, I'd choose Duke over Kentucky every day of the week and twice on Sunday. You have better odds of winning a national title with K and Duke is clearly superior in terms of its academic status. It's a no-brainer.

If it's just about relationships and developing your game for the NBA, then Penny and Mike Miller will certainly have an opportunity to snag some big time players. Penny and Mike Miller had successful careers in the league. Cal was fired. Penny and Mike not only know basketball, but they can tell kids like James Wiseman what to expect in the NBA, from small things like where to sit on the team plane (Jalen Rose mentioned this exact example when referring to the advantage Ben Simmons has over Donovan Mitchell) to bigger things like the cultures of different franchises, including Miami, Phoenix, Orlando, Memphis, New York, etc.

Although it's fun to dump on Cal, it's not like Kentucky is a bad choice by any means. But the idea that he gets guys ready for the NBA more than other coaches or programs is bogus. He's just one of the best at recruiting the kids who are sure fire NBA guys.

Cal does not get some of these kids for multiple years. He gets them for one year, and it's a single elimination tournament. John Higgins is responsible for two fo those title game losses.He hosed us badly and didn't call a shot clock violation on Wisconsin which would have altered the game. Cal cant do anything about that.

Is Higgins the official Kentucky fans were making death threats against?

(04-23-2018 03:52 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:25 PM)DburgCat Wrote:  

(04-20-2018 01:40 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 09:25 PM)MemphisTigerPawr Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 08:31 PM)Memphis10Tigers Wrote:  There is emotion, but there is also reason. Cal has a track record of getting guys to the NBA. Penny said if you added up all the contracts of the guys he got to the NBA you would get close to $1 Billion. Penny has never coached college basketball a day in his life.

Will emotion win over reason?

Cal has a track record of recruiting NBA ready players and turning them into NBA ready players and taking all the credit for it.

Correct. Beat me to it.

There isn't one player that Cal has turned into an NBA player, that wasn't already an NBA player. Period.

Oh, I don't know about that. Gillispie ruined Liggins and Calipari made him an elite defender and got him to the NBA. Josh Harrellson was a nobody until Cal arrived at UK. He was picked and hung around the league a while. Marquis Teague was only drafted in the first round because of Cal. We recruit top players, so naturally a lot of them will be ready. But Cal is vastly underrated at development, as you know because you've seen it.

Imagine Antonio Anderson becoming Antonio Anderson under Tubby?

Strange that you would choose Antonio who was a 4-star with a man's body and work ethic, and who Cal did not help get into the league, as an example. If Cal had developed his shooting, he would have stuck.

And Marquis Teague was the #6 player in the country out of high school.

Aaron Harrison, Alex Poythress, Isaiah Briscoe, Mychal Mulder, Marcus Lee send a group text "Well, hello there!".

Cal's handling of Skal dropped the sure-fire top 3 pick almost all the way out of the first round.

Cal is good at selling. Don't mistake what he does for player development.

Coach K holds so many players back because they don't play well out of the gate. That is the only reason people believe that myth

Top 25 Recruits

Cal
36 player
27 One and done
6 Two years (Harrison, Harrison, Johnson, Washington, Ulis, Lamb)
0 3 years
3 4 years or transferred (Poythress, Lee, Wiltjer)

Coach K
26 players
14 One and done
2 Two years (McRoberts, Kennard)
2 Three years (Henderson, Bolden)
8 4 years or transferred (Singler, Thornton, Sulaimon, Paulus, Jeter, Kelly, Smith, Allen)

Not a very fair comparison at all when you consider that 8.3% of Cal's players don't get drafted before their 4 years are up and 33.3% of Coach K's don't get drafted.

8.3% of Cal's players stay 4 years or don't get drafted until their eligibility is up.

30.8% of Coach K's players stay 4 years or don't get drafted until their eligibility is up.

Not a fair comparison, but you know that. You choose to not be honest.

(04-23-2018 02:36 PM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:25 PM)DburgCat Wrote:  

(04-20-2018 01:40 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 09:25 PM)MemphisTigerPawr Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 08:31 PM)Memphis10Tigers Wrote:  There is emotion, but there is also reason. Cal has a track record of getting guys to the NBA. Penny said if you added up all the contracts of the guys he got to the NBA you would get close to $1 Billion. Penny has never coached college basketball a day in his life.

Will emotion win over reason?

Cal has a track record of recruiting NBA ready players and turning them into NBA ready players and taking all the credit for it.

Correct. Beat me to it.

There isn't one player that Cal has turned into an NBA player, that wasn't already an NBA player. Period.

Oh, I don't know about that. Gillispie ruined Liggins and Calipari made him an elite defender and got him to the NBA. Josh Harrellson was a nobody until Cal arrived at UK. He was picked and hung around the league a while. Marquis Teague was only drafted in the first round because of Cal. We recruit top players, so naturally a lot of them will be ready. But Cal is vastly underrated at development, as you know because you've seen it.

Imagine Antonio Anderson becoming Antonio Anderson under Tubby?

Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Cal dominates everyone on the recruiting trail (except maybe K as of late) and yet he does not dominate in terms of national championships. Three other schools have more national championships than Kentucky during Cal's nine year tenure there.

If I'm a top-level recruit determined to play for a blue blood, I'd choose Duke over Kentucky every day of the week and twice on Sunday. You have better odds of winning a national title with K and Duke is clearly superior in terms of its academic status. It's a no-brainer.

If it's just about relationships and developing your game for the NBA, then Penny and Mike Miller will certainly have an opportunity to snag some big time players. Penny and Mike Miller had successful careers in the league. Cal was fired. Penny and Mike not only know basketball, but they can tell kids like James Wiseman what to expect in the NBA, from small things like where to sit on the team plane (Jalen Rose mentioned this exact example when referring to the advantage Ben Simmons has over Donovan Mitchell) to bigger things like the cultures of different franchises, including Miami, Phoenix, Orlando, Memphis, New York, etc.

Although it's fun to dump on Cal, it's not like Kentucky is a bad choice by any means. But the idea that he gets guys ready for the NBA more than other coaches or programs is bogus. He's just one of the best at recruiting the kids who are sure fire NBA guys.

Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

Quote:How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Quote:Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

I'm glad you mentioned this.

Duke 2018
6 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Bagley, Carter, Trent Jr., Duval, Allen, Bolden
Result: Elite 8

Duke 2017
5 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Tatum, Giles, Kennard, Allen, Bolden
Result: Round Of 32

Kentucky 2015
4 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Towns, Booker, Lyles, Cauley- Stein
Result: Final Four

Just in case you're not sure what just happened; you just used your own argument to prove that what you said is not true.

(04-23-2018 04:54 PM)450bench Wrote:  Wiseman will sign with Memphis. Jeffries may as well, we will have to wait and see.
Kentucky fans are having a come apart and it's great to see.
Cal was great here and has continued to be great there but the recruiting game just changed, especially in this area.
It's just a different approach now with Hardaway and Milller.

Things look good.

I want to see some big names sign but I believe it will happen.

Hopefully starting this summer.

(04-23-2018 04:31 PM)DburgCat Wrote:  Would you really send your son to play for K over Cal if he was an NBA ready athlete?

Well, to put it in terms UK fans understand...Remember when Cal said getting 5-6 of his guys drafted was the greatest day in UK history? (LOL - not a national championship.)

Over the past couple of years, K has matched Cal draft pick for draft pick. This year, K projects to have 3-5 first rounders. Cal projects only 2.

So, to answer your question, yes.

(04-23-2018 07:32 PM)memphistiger89 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 04:31 PM)DburgCat Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:36 PM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:25 PM)DburgCat Wrote:  

(04-20-2018 01:40 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  Correct. Beat me to it.

There isn't one player that Cal has turned into an NBA player, that wasn't already an NBA player. Period.

Oh, I don't know about that. Gillispie ruined Liggins and Calipari made him an elite defender and got him to the NBA. Josh Harrellson was a nobody until Cal arrived at UK. He was picked and hung around the league a while. Marquis Teague was only drafted in the first round because of Cal. We recruit top players, so naturally a lot of them will be ready. But Cal is vastly underrated at development, as you know because you've seen it.

Imagine Antonio Anderson becoming Antonio Anderson under Tubby?

Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Cal dominates everyone on the recruiting trail (except maybe K as of late) and yet he does not dominate in terms of national championships. Three other schools have more national championships than Kentucky during Cal's nine year tenure there.

If I'm a top-level recruit determined to play for a blue blood, I'd choose Duke over Kentucky every day of the week and twice on Sunday. You have better odds of winning a national title with K and Duke is clearly superior in terms of its academic status. It's a no-brainer.

If it's just about relationships and developing your game for the NBA, then Penny and Mike Miller will certainly have an opportunity to snag some big time players. Penny and Mike Miller had successful careers in the league. Cal was fired. Penny and Mike not only know basketball, but they can tell kids like James Wiseman what to expect in the NBA, from small things like where to sit on the team plane (Jalen Rose mentioned this exact example when referring to the advantage Ben Simmons has over Donovan Mitchell) to bigger things like the cultures of different franchises, including Miami, Phoenix, Orlando, Memphis, New York, etc.

Although it's fun to dump on Cal, it's not like Kentucky is a bad choice by any means. But the idea that he gets guys ready for the NBA more than other coaches or programs is bogus. He's just one of the best at recruiting the kids who are sure fire NBA guys.

Cal does not get some of these kids for multiple years. He gets them for one year, and it's a single elimination tournament. John Higgins is responsible for two fo those title game losses.He hosed us badly and didn't call a shot clock violation on Wisconsin which would have altered the game. Cal cant do anything about that.

Is Higgins the official Kentucky fans were making death threats against?

He is one of them.

(04-23-2018 08:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:36 PM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:25 PM)DburgCat Wrote:  

(04-20-2018 01:40 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 09:25 PM)MemphisTigerPawr Wrote:  Cal has a track record of recruiting NBA ready players and turning them into NBA ready players and taking all the credit for it.

Correct. Beat me to it.

There isn't one player that Cal has turned into an NBA player, that wasn't already an NBA player. Period.

K: 5 NCAA Championships
Cal: 1



Oh, I don't know about that. Gillispie ruined Liggins and Calipari made him an elite defender and got him to the NBA. Josh Harrellson was a nobody until Cal arrived at UK. He was picked and hung around the league a while. Marquis Teague was only drafted in the first round because of Cal. We recruit top players, so naturally a lot of them will be ready. But Cal is vastly underrated at development, as you know because you've seen it.

Imagine Antonio Anderson becoming Antonio Anderson under Tubby?

Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Cal dominates everyone on the recruiting trail (except maybe K as of late) and yet he does not dominate in terms of national championships. Three other schools have more national championships than Kentucky during Cal's nine year tenure there.

If I'm a top-level recruit determined to play for a blue blood, I'd choose Duke over Kentucky every day of the week and twice on Sunday. You have better odds of winning a national title with K and Duke is clearly superior in terms of its academic status. It's a no-brainer.

If it's just about relationships and developing your game for the NBA, then Penny and Mike Miller will certainly have an opportunity to snag some big time players. Penny and Mike Miller had successful careers in the league. Cal was fired. Penny and Mike not only know basketball, but they can tell kids like James Wiseman what to expect in the NBA, from small things like where to sit on the team plane (Jalen Rose mentioned this exact example when referring to the advantage Ben Simmons has over Donovan Mitchell) to bigger things like the cultures of different franchises, including Miami, Phoenix, Orlando, Memphis, New York, etc.

Although it's fun to dump on Cal, it's not like Kentucky is a bad choice by any means. But the idea that he gets guys ready for the NBA more than other coaches or programs is bogus. He's just one of the best at recruiting the kids who are sure fire NBA guys.

Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

Quote:How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Quote:Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

I'm glad you mentioned this.

Duke 2018
6 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Bagley, Carter, Trent Jr., Duval, Allen, Bolden
Result: Elite 8

Duke 2017
5 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Tatum, Giles, Kennard, Allen, Bolden
Result: Round Of 32

Kentucky 2015
4 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Towns, Booker, Lyles, Cauley- Stein
Result: Final Four

Just in case you're not sure what just happened; you just used your own argument to prove that what you said is not true.

K: 5 NCAA Championships, 12 Final Fours, 20 guys from Duke currently in the NBA, one of who is an all star
Cal: 1 NCAA Championship, 6 Final Fours, 2 of which were vacated, 25 guys from Kentucky currently in the NBA, four of whom are all stars (Less with More)

Now you might try and do what your fellow Kentucky fan tried to do and say that this is proof that Cal is better at developing guys for the NBA as evidenced by the fact that there are more Kentucky pros and more all stars. And I'd laugh at the argument. I'd laugh at the idea that Karl Anthony Towns and Anthony Davis wouldn't be who they are now had they gone to Duke instead of Kentucky.

Cal is the best at getting the most talented kids. Cal is NOT the best at winning championships. He does less with more.

(04-23-2018 04:31 PM)DburgCat Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:36 PM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:25 PM)DburgCat Wrote:  

(04-20-2018 01:40 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 09:25 PM)MemphisTigerPawr Wrote:  Cal has a track record of recruiting NBA ready players and turning them into NBA ready players and taking all the credit for it.

Correct. Beat me to it.

There isn't one player that Cal has turned into an NBA player, that wasn't already an NBA player. Period.

Oh, I don't know about that. Gillispie ruined Liggins and Calipari made him an elite defender and got him to the NBA. Josh Harrellson was a nobody until Cal arrived at UK. He was picked and hung around the league a while. Marquis Teague was only drafted in the first round because of Cal. We recruit top players, so naturally a lot of them will be ready. But Cal is vastly underrated at development, as you know because you've seen it.

Imagine Antonio Anderson becoming Antonio Anderson under Tubby?

Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Cal dominates everyone on the recruiting trail (except maybe K as of late) and yet he does not dominate in terms of national championships. Three other schools have more national championships than Kentucky during Cal's nine year tenure there.

If I'm a top-level recruit determined to play for a blue blood, I'd choose Duke over Kentucky every day of the week and twice on Sunday. You have better odds of winning a national title with K and Duke is clearly superior in terms of its academic status. It's a no-brainer.

If it's just about relationships and developing your game for the NBA, then Penny and Mike Miller will certainly have an opportunity to snag some big time players. Penny and Mike Miller had successful careers in the league. Cal was fired. Penny and Mike not only know basketball, but they can tell kids like James Wiseman what to expect in the NBA, from small things like where to sit on the team plane (Jalen Rose mentioned this exact example when referring to the advantage Ben Simmons has over Donovan Mitchell) to bigger things like the cultures of different franchises, including Miami, Phoenix, Orlando, Memphis, New York, etc.

Although it's fun to dump on Cal, it's not like Kentucky is a bad choice by any means. But the idea that he gets guys ready for the NBA more than other coaches or programs is bogus. He's just one of the best at recruiting the kids who are sure fire NBA guys.

Cal has the best resume of any coach since his arrival at Ky, minus K or Wright if you weight the opinion on the side of championships. Right, so he's not the best of the best, which is my point. Send your kid to Duke if you want better odds of winning a National Championship. I have no problem wit that. But no one else is in the conversation. If you want to give it to wright, you can only do so by ignoring all of his early round flameouts Awesome. I'll take his two championships over Cal's one championship with far superior talent and two vacated Final Fours . Cal has 4 final fours Six if he didn't have to vacate two of them, two title games, and a national title with 1 second round exit. He did go to the NIT in '13 due to a late injury. But either way, the road continues and these numbers change. He makes deep runs because of the superior talent he has. He out-recruits everyone other than K. I don't deny his recruiting ability. But he's failed to dominated in terms of championships despite the vastly superior talent.

You base your opinion on names, but Booker was not Booker at Kentucky.And who's fault was that? I guess his NBA coaches actually developed his game when Cal couldn't. He was a freshman that couldn't defend a street light. WCS is another poor example. Does Cal develop or not? WCS was a 4 star.

Cal does not get some of these kids for multiple years. He gets them for one year, and it's a single elimination tournament.OK, so maybe he should try to recruit a few more glue guys if he wants to win championships John Higgins is responsible for two fo those title game losses. LOLHe hosed us badly and didn't call a shot clock violation on Wisconsin which would have altered the game. Cal cant do anything about that.

Would you really send your son to play for K over Cal if he was an NBA ready athlete? K just took a team with upperclassman and NBA ready transcendent type talent, Bagley, Carter, and Duval and didn't even make a final four.Your argument is that Cal may not win as many championships as K, but he sends kids to the pros. But when K sends five or six kids to the NBA in a single draft but didn't win a championship, you use it against it him. Which is it my man? He won a title in the OAD era with upperclassman, Quinn Cook and Amile Jefferson, while the NBA ready players of that team have struggled in the league. Okafor Vs KAT? Remember that debate? Are you watching the NBA playoffs? Where are the Duke OAD's?What these kids end up doing in the pros has little if anything to do with what they did in one year in college. Cal and K don't ruin players and they don't make them any better in the league than they already would have been after just one year.

What happened when rivals put Austin Rivers above Anthony Davis in the ratings? Which one turned out to be a top 3 NBA player? Yes, Anthony Davis is who he is because of Cal. I have beach front property in Memphis that I'd like to sell you.

The media pumps Duke, but the record as far as this conversation is clear. The only reason Duke is currently rolling on this recruiting run is because Nike is setting up a going out party, much in the same way the NCAA rolled for Wooden in 1975. The writing was on the wall when Cal skipped the PK80.Now you're starting to lose it.

Remember when K was hated by NBA OAD's because he openly tried to retain them? Remember Elton Brand? Yes, Elton Brand had a pretty nice NBA career. And I believe he won a championship at Duke.

As far as the FBI incident, Kentucky is actually looking really good. The only issue we potentially have the big song birds went rogue is Bam, who never received money from anyone, and it was a rep pushing him to NCState. Kentucky wasn't involved in any of that. I know it's fashionable to think Cal has to be cheating, but when you have his record and realize they play for him because he was the OAD revolutionary, it makes more sense that he doesn't need to.

And lol at the academic talk about Duke. Capel admitted on the recruiting trail that Kentucky could not get Bagley eligible and only Duke could do that. Cal was not allowed to recruit Duvall because of grades. Bagley didn't even really have a senior year. Both enrolled at Duke. Duke basketball diplomas are worthless, there isn't a serious employer anywhere who wouldn't go over the actual transcript with a fine comb.I'm not talking about methods that schools use to get a kid enrolled. I'm talking about kids like Wiseman who are seemingly good students. If you desire the opportunity to get the best education possible, there is absolutely zero comparison between Kentucky and Duke.

Also, K has been past the sweet 15 now 5 times in 18 years. And just think of how soft his roads are. He's not half the guy people make him out to be.

I put my responses in bold.

(04-23-2018 07:50 PM)Stammers Wrote:  Top 25 Recruits

Cal
36 player
27 One and done
6 Two years (Harrison, Harrison, Johnson, Washington, Ulis, Lamb)
0 3 years
3 4 years or transferred (Poythress, Lee, Wiltjer)

Coach K
26 players
14 One and done
2 Two years (McRoberts, Kennard)
2 Three years (Henderson, Bolden)
8 4 years or transferred (Singler, Thornton, Sulaimon, Paulus, Jeter, Kelly, Smith, Allen)

Not a very fair comparison at all when you consider that 8.3% of Cal's players don't get drafted before their 4 years are up and 33.3% of Coach K's don't get drafted.

8.3% of Cal's players stay 4 years or don't get drafted until their eligibility is up.

30.8% of Coach K's players stay 4 years or don't get drafted until their eligibility is up.

Not a fair comparison, but you know that. You choose to not be honest.

I'm not sure where you're getting the numbers above, but they're not accurate.

Cal
36 players
22 One and done
5 Two years (Harrison, Johnson, Jones, Ulis, Lamb)
0 Three years
0 Four years drafted
7 Undrafted (Poythress, Lee, Harrison, Briscoe, Mulder, Wiltjer, Washington)
2 Still in school (Gabriel, SK-J)

Coach K
22 players
10 One and done
2 Two years (McRoberts, Kennard)
1 Three years (Henderson)
3 Four years drafted (Smith, Singler, Kelly)
4 Undrafted (Sulaimon, Paulus, Jeter, Nelson)
2 Still in school (Bolden, Thornton)

7 out of 34 (excluding guys still in school) of Cal's players didn't get drafted. That's 20.6% - not 8.3%. 4 out of 20 of K's players didn't get drafted. That's 20.0%.

Those last 2 numbers you quoted were both wrong and irrelevant. (Do you actually give Cal credit when Darius Washington leaves school early and does NOT get drafted?)

You should be careful about calling people dishonest on here.

(04-24-2018 10:46 AM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 08:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:36 PM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:25 PM)DburgCat Wrote:  

(04-20-2018 01:40 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  Correct. Beat me to it.

There isn't one player that Cal has turned into an NBA player, that wasn't already an NBA player. Period.

K: 5 NCAA Championships
Cal: 1



Oh, I don't know about that. Gillispie ruined Liggins and Calipari made him an elite defender and got him to the NBA. Josh Harrellson was a nobody until Cal arrived at UK. He was picked and hung around the league a while. Marquis Teague was only drafted in the first round because of Cal. We recruit top players, so naturally a lot of them will be ready. But Cal is vastly underrated at development, as you know because you've seen it.

Imagine Antonio Anderson becoming Antonio Anderson under Tubby?

Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Cal dominates everyone on the recruiting trail (except maybe K as of late) and yet he does not dominate in terms of national championships. Three other schools have more national championships than Kentucky during Cal's nine year tenure there.

If I'm a top-level recruit determined to play for a blue blood, I'd choose Duke over Kentucky every day of the week and twice on Sunday. You have better odds of winning a national title with K and Duke is clearly superior in terms of its academic status. It's a no-brainer.

If it's just about relationships and developing your game for the NBA, then Penny and Mike Miller will certainly have an opportunity to snag some big time players. Penny and Mike Miller had successful careers in the league. Cal was fired. Penny and Mike not only know basketball, but they can tell kids like James Wiseman what to expect in the NBA, from small things like where to sit on the team plane (Jalen Rose mentioned this exact example when referring to the advantage Ben Simmons has over Donovan Mitchell) to bigger things like the cultures of different franchises, including Miami, Phoenix, Orlando, Memphis, New York, etc.

Although it's fun to dump on Cal, it's not like Kentucky is a bad choice by any means. But the idea that he gets guys ready for the NBA more than other coaches or programs is bogus. He's just one of the best at recruiting the kids who are sure fire NBA guys.

Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

Quote:How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Quote:Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

I'm glad you mentioned this.

Duke 2018
6 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Bagley, Carter, Trent Jr., Duval, Allen, Bolden
Result: Elite 8

Duke 2017
5 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Tatum, Giles, Kennard, Allen, Bolden
Result: Round Of 32

Kentucky 2015
4 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Towns, Booker, Lyles, Cauley- Stein
Result: Final Four

Just in case you're not sure what just happened; you just used your own argument to prove that what you said is not true.

K: 5 NCAA Championships, 12 Final Fours, 20 guys from Duke currently in the NBA, one of who is an all star
Cal: 1 NCAA Championship, 6 Final Fours, 2 of which were vacated, 25 guys from Kentucky currently in the NBA, four of whom are all stars (Less with More)

Now you might try and do what your fellow Kentucky fan tried to do and say that this is proof that Cal is better at developing guys for the NBA as evidenced by the fact that there are more Kentucky pros and more all stars. And I'd laugh at the argument. I'd laugh at the idea that Karl Anthony Towns and Anthony Davis wouldn't be who they are now had they gone to Duke instead of Kentucky.

Cal is the best at getting the most talented kids. Cal is NOT the best at winning championships. He does less with more.

We may as well be trying to show the truth to the actual screen, for the good it will do. I think everyone can see the truth. And I'm not even anti-Cal or pro-K. Just like actual facts.

I'm done with him on this topic.

(04-24-2018 10:46 AM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 08:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:36 PM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:25 PM)DburgCat Wrote:  

(04-20-2018 01:40 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  Correct. Beat me to it.

There isn't one player that Cal has turned into an NBA player, that wasn't already an NBA player. Period.

K: 5 NCAA Championships
Cal: 1



Oh, I don't know about that. Gillispie ruined Liggins and Calipari made him an elite defender and got him to the NBA. Josh Harrellson was a nobody until Cal arrived at UK. He was picked and hung around the league a while. Marquis Teague was only drafted in the first round because of Cal. We recruit top players, so naturally a lot of them will be ready. But Cal is vastly underrated at development, as you know because you've seen it.

Imagine Antonio Anderson becoming Antonio Anderson under Tubby?

Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Cal dominates everyone on the recruiting trail (except maybe K as of late) and yet he does not dominate in terms of national championships. Three other schools have more national championships than Kentucky during Cal's nine year tenure there.

If I'm a top-level recruit determined to play for a blue blood, I'd choose Duke over Kentucky every day of the week and twice on Sunday. You have better odds of winning a national title with K and Duke is clearly superior in terms of its academic status. It's a no-brainer.

If it's just about relationships and developing your game for the NBA, then Penny and Mike Miller will certainly have an opportunity to snag some big time players. Penny and Mike Miller had successful careers in the league. Cal was fired. Penny and Mike not only know basketball, but they can tell kids like James Wiseman what to expect in the NBA, from small things like where to sit on the team plane (Jalen Rose mentioned this exact example when referring to the advantage Ben Simmons has over Donovan Mitchell) to bigger things like the cultures of different franchises, including Miami, Phoenix, Orlando, Memphis, New York, etc.

Although it's fun to dump on Cal, it's not like Kentucky is a bad choice by any means. But the idea that he gets guys ready for the NBA more than other coaches or programs is bogus. He's just one of the best at recruiting the kids who are sure fire NBA guys.

Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

Quote:How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Quote:Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

I'm glad you mentioned this.

Duke 2018
6 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Bagley, Carter, Trent Jr., Duval, Allen, Bolden
Result: Elite 8

Duke 2017
5 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Tatum, Giles, Kennard, Allen, Bolden
Result: Round Of 32

Kentucky 2015
4 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Towns, Booker, Lyles, Cauley- Stein
Result: Final Four

Just in case you're not sure what just happened; you just used your own argument to prove that what you said is not true.

K: 5 NCAA Championships, 12 Final Fours, 20 guys from Duke currently in the NBA, one of who is an all star
Cal: 1 NCAA Championship, 6 Final Fours, 2 of which were vacated, 25 guys from Kentucky currently in the NBA, four of whom are all stars (Less with More)

Now you might try and do what your fellow Kentucky fan tried to do and say that this is proof that Cal is better at developing guys for the NBA as evidenced by the fact that there are more Kentucky pros and more all stars. And I'd laugh at the argument. I'd laugh at the idea that Karl Anthony Towns and Anthony Davis wouldn't be who they are now had they gone to Duke instead of Kentucky.

Cal is the best at getting the most talented kids. Cal is NOT the best at winning championships. He does less with more.

Buddy, I referenced YOUR post directly, try to stay on your own topic, which I proved didn't make any sense. So again, try and pull it all together, really really try to focus and answer this question about YOUR post.

Which seasons define doing less with more?

Duke 2018
6 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Bagley, Carter, Trent Jr., Duval, Allen, Bolden
Result: Elite 8

Duke 2017
5 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Tatum, Giles, Kennard, Allen, Bolden
Result: Round Of 32

Kentucky 2015
4 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Towns, Booker, Lyles, Cauley- Stein
Result: Final Four

Try and answer the question. I didn't read whatever gibberish you posted. Try and answer my response to your statement.

Stammers, why are you claiming 6 1st rounders for Duke this year as a fact? Here is today's SI NBA mock - they had 2 Dukies going in the 1st round (Bagley and Carter). Edited, forgot to link the SI draft: https://www.si.com/nba/2018/04/24/nba-dr...uka-doncic

Had 3 in the 2nd round - Grayson Allen (33rd), Trent (43rd) and Duval (48th).

I had to look up who Bolden was. Marques Bolden is not even projected to be drafted, much less a 1st Rounder (75th on nbadraft.net). Yet you claimed him as a Duke 1st Rounder twice, in both your 2017 list and the 2018 list. You also claimed Allen twice as a 1st Rounder, in '17 and '18, so obviously that is just a guess.

(04-24-2018 12:22 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 07:50 PM)Stammers Wrote:  Top 25 Recruits

Cal
36 player
27 One and done
6 Two years (Harrison, Harrison, Johnson, Washington, Ulis, Lamb)
0 3 years
3 4 years or transferred (Poythress, Lee, Wiltjer)

Coach K
26 players
14 One and done
2 Two years (McRoberts, Kennard)
2 Three years (Henderson, Bolden)
8 4 years or transferred (Singler, Thornton, Sulaimon, Paulus, Jeter, Kelly, Smith, Allen)

Not a very fair comparison at all when you consider that 8.3% of Cal's players don't get drafted before their 4 years are up and 33.3% of Coach K's don't get drafted.

8.3% of Cal's players stay 4 years or don't get drafted until their eligibility is up.

30.8% of Coach K's players stay 4 years or don't get drafted until their eligibility is up.

Not a fair comparison, but you know that. You choose to not be honest.

I'm not sure where you're getting the numbers above, but they're not accurate.

Cal
36 players
22 One and done
5 Two years (Harrison, Johnson, Jones, Ulis, Lamb)
0 Three years
0 Four years drafted
7 Undrafted (Poythress, Lee, Harrison, Briscoe, Mulder, Wiltjer, Washington)
2 Still in school (Gabriel, SK-J)

Coach K
22 players
10 One and done
2 Two years (McRoberts, Kennard)
1 Three years (Henderson)
3 Four years drafted (Smith, Singler, Kelly)
4 Undrafted (Sulaimon, Paulus, Jeter, Nelson)
2 Still in school (Bolden, Thornton)

7 out of 34 (excluding guys still in school) of Cal's players didn't get drafted. That's 20.6% - not 8.3%. 4 out of 20 of K's players didn't get drafted. That's 20.0%.

Those last 2 numbers you quoted were both wrong and irrelevant. (Do you actually give Cal credit when Darius Washington leaves school early and does NOT get drafted?)

You should be careful about calling people dishonest on here.

Including Tom Izzo, who hasn't had a single one and done in the last 18 years, Ben Howland who has only had 2 (I think) and Alford to compare in any way in a discussion of one and dones and 1st round draft choices is dishonest. They have no place in the conversation.

The reason it is confusing is because to make the comparison fair, I am using projected draft predictions. That way the 5 Duke players (Bagley, Carter, Duval, Trent Jr., Allen) can be included, which will make Duke's numbers much better. At the same time I am including the 5 Kentucky players (Knox, Gilgeous-Alexander, Vanderbilt, Washington, Diallo). Doing this is favourable to Duke because all 5 of their players are projected 1st rounders.

Mulder was the #14 juco, a 3*,with a rating of .9000. Including the 158 high schoolers and 13 jucos ranked ahead of him, he was the #171 ranked player in his class, so he obviously doesn't count for anything.

I was referencing PJ Washington, not Darius Washington. He is projected as a 2nd round choice next year.

One & Done 1st Round (23)
Noel, Davis, Skal, Randle, Wall, Cousins, MKG, Towns, Knight, Fox, Teague, Adebayo, Monk, Knox, Lyles, Murray, Goodwin, Orton, Booker, Shawne, Rose, Tyreke, Bledsoe

One & Done 1st Round Projected (2)
Gilgeous-Alexander, Knox

Total One & Done 1st Round (25)

One & Done 2nd Round Projected (1)
Diallo

Two Years 1st Round (1)
Jones

Two Years 1st Round Projected (1)
Vanderbilt

Two Years 2nd Round Projected (1)
Washington

Undrafted Or Transferred (5)
Harrison, Poythress, Lee, Wiltjer, Killeya-Jones

Incomplete (3)
Briscoe, Gabriel, Richards

Coach K
One & Done 1st Round (9)
Giles, Okafor, Rivers, Ingram, Irving, Parker, Tatum, Jones, Winslow

One & Done 1st Round Projected) (4)
Bagley, Carter, Duval, Trent Jr.

Total One & Done 1st Round (13)

One & Done 2nd Round + Projected
None

(04-24-2018 01:06 PM)Tigx Wrote:  Stammers, why are you claiming 6 1st rounders for Duke this year as a fact? Here is today's SI NBA mock - they had 2 Dukies going in the 1st round (Bagley and Carter). Edited, forgot to link the SI draft: https://www.si.com/nba/2018/04/24/nba-dr...uka-doncic

Had 3 in the 2nd round - Grayson Allen (33rd), Trent (43rd) and Duval (48th).

I had to look up who Bolden was. Marques Bolden is not even projected to be drafted, much less a 1st Rounder (75th on nbadraft.net). Yet you claimed him as a Duke 1st Rounder twice, in both your 2017 list and the 2018 list. You also claimed Allen twice as a 1st Rounder, in '17 and '18, so obviously that is just a guess.

I'm using NBADraft.net. I don't know if there is a better site, so obviously if there is, that screws things up. The argument listed 4 Kentucky players and I listed the Duke players that were either chosen or were projected to be chosen. I didn't specify which draft.

2 Bagley
7 Carter
20 Trent Jr
27 Bolden (2019)
28 Allen

(04-24-2018 01:56 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 01:06 PM)Tigx Wrote:  Stammers, why are you claiming 6 1st rounders for Duke this year as a fact? Here is today's SI NBA mock - they had 2 Dukies going in the 1st round (Bagley and Carter). Edited, forgot to link the SI draft: https://www.si.com/nba/2018/04/24/nba-dr...uka-doncic

Had 3 in the 2nd round - Grayson Allen (33rd), Trent (43rd) and Duval (48th).

I had to look up who Bolden was. Marques Bolden is not even projected to be drafted, much less a 1st Rounder (75th on nbadraft.net). Yet you claimed him as a Duke 1st Rounder twice, in both your 2017 list and the 2018 list. You also claimed Allen twice as a 1st Rounder, in '17 and '18, so obviously that is just a guess.

I'm using NBADraft.net. I don't know if there is a better site, so obviously if there is, that screws things up. The argument listed 4 Kentucky players and I listed the Duke players that were either chosen or were projected to be chosen. I didn't specify which draft.

2 Bagley
7 Carter
20 Trent Jr
27 Bolden (2019)
28 Allen

Ok. Still that's only 4 in '18. Guess everyone has there own method, but like with Bolden, if he is a 1st rounder next season, to me unlikely, seems like you are counting him 3 times.

Basketball Insiders also released a mock today - http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-da...t-4-24-18/

Had Trent late in the 1st round, #28, so 3 from Duke in 1st round.

(04-24-2018 01:56 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 01:06 PM)Tigx Wrote:  Stammers, why are you claiming 6 1st rounders for Duke this year as a fact? Here is today's SI NBA mock - they had 2 Dukies going in the 1st round (Bagley and Carter). Edited, forgot to link the SI draft: https://www.si.com/nba/2018/04/24/nba-dr...uka-doncic

Had 3 in the 2nd round - Grayson Allen (33rd), Trent (43rd) and Duval (48th).

I had to look up who Bolden was. Marques Bolden is not even projected to be drafted, much less a 1st Rounder (75th on nbadraft.net). Yet you claimed him as a Duke 1st Rounder twice, in both your 2017 list and the 2018 list. You also claimed Allen twice as a 1st Rounder, in '17 and '18, so obviously that is just a guess.

I'm using NBADraft.net. I don't know if there is a better site, so obviously if there is, that screws things up. The argument listed 4 Kentucky players and I listed the Duke players that were either chosen or were projected to be chosen. I didn't specify which draft.

2 Bagley
7 Carter
20 Trent Jr
27 Bolden (2019)
28 Allen

Are you combining TWO YEARS? lol

(04-24-2018 12:41 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 10:46 AM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 08:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:36 PM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:25 PM)DburgCat Wrote:  K: 5 NCAA Championships
Cal: 1



Oh, I don't know about that. Gillispie ruined Liggins and Calipari made him an elite defender and got him to the NBA. Josh Harrellson was a nobody until Cal arrived at UK. He was picked and hung around the league a while. Marquis Teague was only drafted in the first round because of Cal. We recruit top players, so naturally a lot of them will be ready. But Cal is vastly underrated at development, as you know because you've seen it.

Imagine Antonio Anderson becoming Antonio Anderson under Tubby?

Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Cal dominates everyone on the recruiting trail (except maybe K as of late) and yet he does not dominate in terms of national championships. Three other schools have more national championships than Kentucky during Cal's nine year tenure there.

If I'm a top-level recruit determined to play for a blue blood, I'd choose Duke over Kentucky every day of the week and twice on Sunday. You have better odds of winning a national title with K and Duke is clearly superior in terms of its academic status. It's a no-brainer.

If it's just about relationships and developing your game for the NBA, then Penny and Mike Miller will certainly have an opportunity to snag some big time players. Penny and Mike Miller had successful careers in the league. Cal was fired. Penny and Mike not only know basketball, but they can tell kids like James Wiseman what to expect in the NBA, from small things like where to sit on the team plane (Jalen Rose mentioned this exact example when referring to the advantage Ben Simmons has over Donovan Mitchell) to bigger things like the cultures of different franchises, including Miami, Phoenix, Orlando, Memphis, New York, etc.

Although it's fun to dump on Cal, it's not like Kentucky is a bad choice by any means. But the idea that he gets guys ready for the NBA more than other coaches or programs is bogus. He's just one of the best at recruiting the kids who are sure fire NBA guys.

Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

Quote:How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Quote:Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

I'm glad you mentioned this.

Duke 2018
6 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Bagley, Carter, Trent Jr., Duval, Allen, Bolden
Result: Elite 8

Duke 2017
5 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Tatum, Giles, Kennard, Allen, Bolden
Result: Round Of 32

Kentucky 2015
4 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Towns, Booker, Lyles, Cauley- Stein
Result: Final Four

Just in case you're not sure what just happened; you just used your own argument to prove that what you said is not true.

K: 5 NCAA Championships, 12 Final Fours, 20 guys from Duke currently in the NBA, one of who is an all star
Cal: 1 NCAA Championship, 6 Final Fours, 2 of which were vacated, 25 guys from Kentucky currently in the NBA, four of whom are all stars (Less with More)

Now you might try and do what your fellow Kentucky fan tried to do and say that this is proof that Cal is better at developing guys for the NBA as evidenced by the fact that there are more Kentucky pros and more all stars. And I'd laugh at the argument. I'd laugh at the idea that Karl Anthony Towns and Anthony Davis wouldn't be who they are now had they gone to Duke instead of Kentucky.

Cal is the best at getting the most talented kids. Cal is NOT the best at winning championships. He does less with more.

Buddy, I referenced YOUR post directly, try to stay on your own topic, which I proved didn't make any sense. So again, try and pull it all together, really really try to focus and answer this question about YOUR post.

Which seasons define doing less with more?

Duke 2018
6 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Bagley, Carter, Trent Jr., Duval, Allen, Bolden
Result: Elite 8

Duke 2017
5 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Tatum, Giles, Kennard, Allen, Bolden
Result: Round Of 32

Kentucky 2015
4 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Towns, Booker, Lyles, Cauley- Stein
Result: Final Four

Try and answer the question. I didn't read whatever gibberish you posted. Try and answer my response to your statement.

If you didn't read my post, then you wouldn't have responded because you wouldn't have known what to respond to. So clearly you did read it. And judging by the tone of your post, I'd say you're getting agitated because you know I've been dunking all over you in this thread.

The point of my original post was that, on the whole (do I need to define this for you, because I can if you're struggling to keep up), Cal does less with more compared to a guy like K. Or Jay Wright for that matter. Or all the dozens of coaches who have at least one championship under their belt. Cal consistently has the most talent in the country. And yet other coaches with less talent have won as many or more championships. I didn't say Cal is a bum. I said he's probably the best or second best recruiter. But he's not the best when it comes to winning the big one. So he does less with more.

Look, I get it, you're on Cal's jock. I'm not. To each his own.

(04-24-2018 02:30 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 01:56 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 01:06 PM)Tigx Wrote:  Stammers, why are you claiming 6 1st rounders for Duke this year as a fact? Here is today's SI NBA mock - they had 2 Dukies going in the 1st round (Bagley and Carter). Edited, forgot to link the SI draft: https://www.si.com/nba/2018/04/24/nba-dr...uka-doncic

Had 3 in the 2nd round - Grayson Allen (33rd), Trent (43rd) and Duval (48th).

I had to look up who Bolden was. Marques Bolden is not even projected to be drafted, much less a 1st Rounder (75th on nbadraft.net). Yet you claimed him as a Duke 1st Rounder twice, in both your 2017 list and the 2018 list. You also claimed Allen twice as a 1st Rounder, in '17 and '18, so obviously that is just a guess.

I'm using NBADraft.net. I don't know if there is a better site, so obviously if there is, that screws things up. The argument listed 4 Kentucky players and I listed the Duke players that were either chosen or were projected to be chosen. I didn't specify which draft.

2 Bagley
7 Carter
20 Trent Jr
27 Bolden (2019)
28 Allen

Ok. Still that's only 4 in '18. Guess everyone has there own method, but like with Bolden, if he is a 1st rounder next season, to me unlikely, seems like you are counting him 3 times.

Basketball Insiders also released a mock today - http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-da...t-4-24-18/

Had Trent late in the 1st round, #28, so 3 from Duke in 1st round.

Allen averaged 21.6 points per game in 2016, but Coach K kept him and he played on both of the teams I listed, same with Bolden. Bolden was the #14 recruit in the nation.

(04-24-2018 03:02 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 02:30 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 01:56 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 01:06 PM)Tigx Wrote:  Stammers, why are you claiming 6 1st rounders for Duke this year as a fact? Here is today's SI NBA mock - they had 2 Dukies going in the 1st round (Bagley and Carter). Edited, forgot to link the SI draft: https://www.si.com/nba/2018/04/24/nba-dr...uka-doncic

Had 3 in the 2nd round - Grayson Allen (33rd), Trent (43rd) and Duval (48th).

I had to look up who Bolden was. Marques Bolden is not even projected to be drafted, much less a 1st Rounder (75th on nbadraft.net). Yet you claimed him as a Duke 1st Rounder twice, in both your 2017 list and the 2018 list. You also claimed Allen twice as a 1st Rounder, in '17 and '18, so obviously that is just a guess.

I'm using NBADraft.net. I don't know if there is a better site, so obviously if there is, that screws things up. The argument listed 4 Kentucky players and I listed the Duke players that were either chosen or were projected to be chosen. I didn't specify which draft.

2 Bagley
7 Carter
20 Trent Jr
27 Bolden (2019)
28 Allen

Ok. Still that's only 4 in '18. Guess everyone has there own method, but like with Bolden, if he is a 1st rounder next season, to me unlikely, seems like you are counting him 3 times.

Basketball Insiders also released a mock today - http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-da...t-4-24-18/

Had Trent late in the 1st round, #28, so 3 from Duke in 1st round.

Allen averaged 21.6 points per game in 2016, but Coach K kept him and he played on both of the teams I listed, same with Bolden. Bolden was the #14 recruit in the nation.

Got it. I understand the thinking, but it does count the same person as a 1st rounder multiple times. Just never seen it done that way.

(04-24-2018 02:46 PM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 12:41 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-24-2018 10:46 AM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 08:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-23-2018 02:36 PM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Cal dominates everyone on the recruiting trail (except maybe K as of late) and yet he does not dominate in terms of national championships. Three other schools have more national championships than Kentucky during Cal's nine year tenure there.

If I'm a top-level recruit determined to play for a blue blood, I'd choose Duke over Kentucky every day of the week and twice on Sunday. You have better odds of winning a national title with K and Duke is clearly superior in terms of its academic status. It's a no-brainer.

If it's just about relationships and developing your game for the NBA, then Penny and Mike Miller will certainly have an opportunity to snag some big time players. Penny and Mike Miller had successful careers in the league. Cal was fired. Penny and Mike not only know basketball, but they can tell kids like James Wiseman what to expect in the NBA, from small things like where to sit on the team plane (Jalen Rose mentioned this exact example when referring to the advantage Ben Simmons has over Donovan Mitchell) to bigger things like the cultures of different franchises, including Miami, Phoenix, Orlando, Memphis, New York, etc.

Although it's fun to dump on Cal, it's not like Kentucky is a bad choice by any means. But the idea that he gets guys ready for the NBA more than other coaches or programs is bogus. He's just one of the best at recruiting the kids who are sure fire NBA guys.

Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

Quote:How in the world do you not win a national championship with KAT, Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, Cauley-Stein et al.?

Quote:Cal consistently does less with more compared to some other high level college coaches.

I'm glad you mentioned this.

Duke 2018
6 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Bagley, Carter, Trent Jr., Duval, Allen, Bolden
Result: Elite 8

Duke 2017
5 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Tatum, Giles, Kennard, Allen, Bolden
Result: Round Of 32

Kentucky 2015
4 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Towns, Booker, Lyles, Cauley- Stein
Result: Final Four

Just in case you're not sure what just happened; you just used your own argument to prove that what you said is not true.

K: 5 NCAA Championships, 12 Final Fours, 20 guys from Duke currently in the NBA, one of who is an all star
Cal: 1 NCAA Championship, 6 Final Fours, 2 of which were vacated, 25 guys from Kentucky currently in the NBA, four of whom are all stars (Less with More)

Now you might try and do what your fellow Kentucky fan tried to do and say that this is proof that Cal is better at developing guys for the NBA as evidenced by the fact that there are more Kentucky pros and more all stars. And I'd laugh at the argument. I'd laugh at the idea that Karl Anthony Towns and Anthony Davis wouldn't be who they are now had they gone to Duke instead of Kentucky.

Cal is the best at getting the most talented kids. Cal is NOT the best at winning championships. He does less with more.

Buddy, I referenced YOUR post directly, try to stay on your own topic, which I proved didn't make any sense. So again, try and pull it all together, really really try to focus and answer this question about YOUR post.

Which seasons define doing less with more?

Duke 2018
6 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Bagley, Carter, Trent Jr., Duval, Allen, Bolden
Result: Elite 8

Duke 2017
5 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Tatum, Giles, Kennard, Allen, Bolden
Result: Round Of 32

Kentucky 2015
4 1st Round NBA Draft Choices
Towns, Booker, Lyles, Cauley- Stein
Result: Final Four

Try and answer the question. I didn't read whatever gibberish you posted. Try and answer my response to your statement.

If you didn't read my post, then you wouldn't have responded because you wouldn't have known what to respond to. So clearly you did read it. And judging by the tone of your post, I'd say you're getting agitated because you know I've been dunking all over you in this thread.

The point of my original post was that, on the whole (do I need to define this for you, because I can if you're struggling to keep up), Cal does less with more compared to a guy like K. Or Jay Wright for that matter. Or all the dozens of coaches who have at least one championship under their belt. Cal consistently has the most talent in the country. And yet other coaches with less talent have won as many or more championships. I didn't say Cal is a bum. I said he's probably the best or second best recruiter. But he's not the best when it comes to winning the big one. So he does less with more.

Look, I get it, you're on Cal's jock. I'm not. To each his own.

You asked a simple question, I gave you a simple answer. Both of Duke's teams had more 1st round draft choices than the Kentucky team you mentioned. The Duke teams went to the Elite 8 and Round of 32 and the Kentucky team went to the Final Four.

AGAIN, I didn't read what you typed. I am merely responding to your statement about Cal doing less with more and gave two examples where Duke had MORE than Cal and did LESS with it.

I'm not actually responding to you because you don't have the capacity to grasp simple logic. This is for anyone else who may be wondering what the truth is.