(03-15-2018 09:31 AM)VA49er Wrote:  Yet technically, running the red light means one is not a law-abiding person. It may seem a minor infraction until it results in crash and someone's death. As you may be able to tell I've been the victim of one of these red light runners that apparently thought gaining a few extra seconds was worth hurting other people.

Yes, you are right - a law abiding citizen running a red-light is as scoflaw.

My point is more along the lines of how it is easy to enforce laws against people - people who are probably pretty law abiding in the first place and won't push back - than it is to do the police work needed to enforce the law on real criminals.

(03-15-2018 09:38 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 09:31 AM)VA49er Wrote:  Yet technically, running the red light means one is not a law-abiding person. It may seem a minor infraction until it results in crash and someone's death. As you may be able to tell I've been the victim of one of these red light runners that apparently thought gaining a few extra seconds was worth hurting other people.

Yes, you are right - a law abiding citizen running a red-light is as scoflaw.

My point is more along the lines of how it is easy to enforce laws against people - people who are probably pretty law abiding in the first place and won't push back - than it is to do the police work needed to enforce the law on real criminals.

To be fair in the vast majority of the cases the police department aren't the ones pushing for these cameras, it's the elected politicians and career bureaucrats who think of them as a way to increase revenue while avoiding the third rail of raising taxes.

(03-15-2018 09:40 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  To be fair in the vast majority of the cases the police department aren't the ones pushing for these cameras, it's the elected politicians and career bureaucrats who think of them as a way to increase revenue while avoiding the third rail of raising taxes.

Good point.

(03-15-2018 09:38 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 09:31 AM)VA49er Wrote:  Yet technically, running the red light means one is not a law-abiding person. It may seem a minor infraction until it results in crash and someone's death. As you may be able to tell I've been the victim of one of these red light runners that apparently thought gaining a few extra seconds was worth hurting other people.

Yes, you are right - a law abiding citizen running a red-light is as scoflaw.

My point is more along the lines of how it is easy to enforce laws against people - people who are probably pretty law abiding in the first place and won't push back - than it is to do the police work needed to enforce the law on real criminals.

Maybe the cameras allow the police to concentrate on enforcing the law on "real criminals"?

(03-15-2018 09:45 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 09:38 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 09:31 AM)VA49er Wrote:  Yet technically, running the red light means one is not a law-abiding person. It may seem a minor infraction until it results in crash and someone's death. As you may be able to tell I've been the victim of one of these red light runners that apparently thought gaining a few extra seconds was worth hurting other people.

Yes, you are right - a law abiding citizen running a red-light is as scoflaw.

My point is more along the lines of how it is easy to enforce laws against people - people who are probably pretty law abiding in the first place and won't push back - than it is to do the police work needed to enforce the law on real criminals.

Maybe the cameras allow the police to concentrate on enforcing the law on "real criminals"?

IMO it does more harm than good.

People bash law enforcement doing traffic law enforcement but the reality is that's where they get a significant portion of their breaks on much bigger stuff.

(03-15-2018 10:04 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 09:45 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 09:38 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 09:31 AM)VA49er Wrote:  Yet technically, running the red light means one is not a law-abiding person. It may seem a minor infraction until it results in crash and someone's death. As you may be able to tell I've been the victim of one of these red light runners that apparently thought gaining a few extra seconds was worth hurting other people.

Yes, you are right - a law abiding citizen running a red-light is as scoflaw.

My point is more along the lines of how it is easy to enforce laws against people - people who are probably pretty law abiding in the first place and won't push back - than it is to do the police work needed to enforce the law on real criminals.

Maybe the cameras allow the police to concentrate on enforcing the law on "real criminals"?

IMO it does more harm than good.

People bash law enforcement doing traffic law enforcement but the reality is that's where they get a significant portion of their breaks on much bigger stuff.

At least when an officer pulls you over you can have your say. If you are respectful and have a good case, the issue can be resolved right then and there. With a camera, that is not an option.

(03-15-2018 08:19 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 08:09 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 07:43 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 06:54 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  The most recent study by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety found that nearly 1,300 lives were saved through 2014 in 79 large U.S. cities that installed red light cameras and, in a study of one county in Maryland, radar cameras installed on local roads reduced fatal or incapacitating injuries by 39 percent.

“Red light running is one of the biggest factors in crashes,” Russ Rader, a spokesman for the IIHS, told Fox News. “But [these crashes] are sharply reduced when cities use red light cameras.”

I love it when the government keeps me safe via threat of force.

So everybody else should be endangered because Lord Stanley doesn't want to obey traffic laws. Nice.

Please small town government save us, please save us we need you.

Bizarro. Governments shouldn't enforce laws? I guess you're an anarchist(?)

(03-15-2018 10:09 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 08:19 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 08:09 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 07:43 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 06:54 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  The most recent study by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety found that nearly 1,300 lives were saved through 2014 in 79 large U.S. cities that installed red light cameras and, in a study of one county in Maryland, radar cameras installed on local roads reduced fatal or incapacitating injuries by 39 percent.

“Red light running is one of the biggest factors in crashes,” Russ Rader, a spokesman for the IIHS, told Fox News. “But [these crashes] are sharply reduced when cities use red light cameras.”

I love it when the government keeps me safe via threat of force.

So everybody else should be endangered because Lord Stanley doesn't want to obey traffic laws. Nice.

Please small town government save us, please save us we need you.

Bizarro. Governments shouldn't enforce laws? I guess you're an anarchist(?)

Government officials should enforce laws, machines should not.

I have no problems with traffic cameras provided that they are 1) positioned in an area where the camera is truly improving the safety of the zone it's pointed at and 2) easy to read signs warning motorists that cameras are being used to enforce traffic laws in this area.

Traffic laws are meant to keep us safe and SHOULD NOT be a source of revenue. Here is a picture of the camera in New Miami - from the article.



Clearly you can tell that this camera is not making anything safer and with it not being clearly marked is a blatant money grab. It's no different than the assh0le state troopers who hide and utilize unmarked cars to enforce traffic laws. Nothing but a money grab - a motorist tax if you will.

(03-15-2018 10:10 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Government officials should enforce laws, machines should not.

This.

Need money? Raise taxes. That goes for civil forfeiture and every other money-grubbing scam invoked to raise taxes without raising taxes.

(03-15-2018 09:31 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 09:27 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 09:22 AM)VA49er Wrote:  I get the cons of red light cameras. However, folks seem to be glossing over if they didn't actually run the red light in the first place this wouldn't even be an issue. Red light runners are a large problem in my neck of the woods. I see them nearly every day.

The solution is to put a paid law enforcement officer on traffic enforcement, not being found electronically guilty with lack of due process.

It another example of how it is easy to enforce the law on law-abiding people because enforcing the law on criminals is hard.

Yet technically, running the red light means one is not a law-abiding person. It may seem a minor infraction until it results in crash and someone's death. As you may be able to tell I've been the victim of one of these red light runners that apparently thought gaining a few extra seconds was worth hurting other people.

Running red lights at full speed is one thing. If I'm creeping along at about 1 mph as I look to see if it's safe to turn right on red, nobody is dying from that. They need to use a little, I don't know, common sense? That's just ridiculous. That indicates to me that it's just designed to make money. I had that happen twice (at different intersections). And the fine is like $125 or something like that.

(03-15-2018 10:51 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 09:31 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 09:27 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 09:22 AM)VA49er Wrote:  I get the cons of red light cameras. However, folks seem to be glossing over if they didn't actually run the red light in the first place this wouldn't even be an issue. Red light runners are a large problem in my neck of the woods. I see them nearly every day.

The solution is to put a paid law enforcement officer on traffic enforcement, not being found electronically guilty with lack of due process.

It another example of how it is easy to enforce the law on law-abiding people because enforcing the law on criminals is hard.

Yet technically, running the red light means one is not a law-abiding person. It may seem a minor infraction until it results in crash and someone's death. As you may be able to tell I've been the victim of one of these red light runners that apparently thought gaining a few extra seconds was worth hurting other people.

Running red lights at full speed is one thing. If I'm creeping along at about 1 mph as I look to see if it's safe to turn right on red, nobody is dying from that. They need to use a little, I don't know, common sense? That's just ridiculous. That indicates to me that it's just designed to make money.

Still could cause damage and not much different the rolling a stop sign which is also illegal. Seems some folks just want an excuse after breaking a law to get out of a ticket, etc. Yes I get it that creeping through a stop light/stop sign slowly is low on the list of crimes, yet it's still a crime. Simply don't commit the crime and none of this matter. Also, yes, I am guilty of running red light so I'm not trying to come off as holier than thou, etc.....

(03-15-2018 10:36 AM)58-56 Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 10:10 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Government officials should enforce laws, machines should not.

This.

Need money? Raise taxes. That goes for civil forfeiture and every other money-grubbing scam invoked to raise taxes without raising taxes.

Yes, we should be taxed while obeying the law and not fined for breaking the law.

Truly bizarre "logic".

(03-15-2018 10:54 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 10:51 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 09:31 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 09:27 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 09:22 AM)VA49er Wrote:  I get the cons of red light cameras. However, folks seem to be glossing over if they didn't actually run the red light in the first place this wouldn't even be an issue. Red light runners are a large problem in my neck of the woods. I see them nearly every day.

The solution is to put a paid law enforcement officer on traffic enforcement, not being found electronically guilty with lack of due process.

It another example of how it is easy to enforce the law on law-abiding people because enforcing the law on criminals is hard.

Yet technically, running the red light means one is not a law-abiding person. It may seem a minor infraction until it results in crash and someone's death. As you may be able to tell I've been the victim of one of these red light runners that apparently thought gaining a few extra seconds was worth hurting other people.

Running red lights at full speed is one thing. If I'm creeping along at about 1 mph as I look to see if it's safe to turn right on red, nobody is dying from that. They need to use a little, I don't know, common sense? That's just ridiculous. That indicates to me that it's just designed to make money.

Still could cause damage and not much different the rolling a stop sign which is also illegal. Seems some folks just want an excuse after breaking a law to get out of a ticket, etc. Yes I get it that creeping through a stop light/stop sign slowly is low on the list of crimes, yet it's still a crime. Simply don't commit the crime and none of this matter. Also, yes, I am guilty of running red light so I'm not trying to come off as holier than thou, etc.....

It isn't going to cause damage. I'm not just running a red light - I am well aware of who is approaching and I am not going if there are any cars. Completely different than going through a light late.

(03-15-2018 10:56 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 10:36 AM)58-56 Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 10:10 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Government officials should enforce laws, machines should not.

This.

Need money? Raise taxes. That goes for civil forfeiture and every other money-grubbing scam invoked to raise taxes without raising taxes.

Yes, we should be taxed while obeying the law and not fined for breaking the law.

Truly bizarre "logic".

If these cameras were intended as punitive measures then they would ensure that the charges filed also involved points reduction in order to eventually lead to the suspension of driving privileges for repeat offenders.

Instead most of the time it involves a new ordinance that only results in a monetary fine because safety isn't the goal, it's just a side benefit of creating a revenue source.

(03-15-2018 10:36 AM)58-56 Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 10:10 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Government officials should enforce laws, machines should not.

This.

Need money? Raise taxes. That goes for civil forfeiture and every other money-grubbing scam invoked to raise taxes without raising taxes.

How about....

Need Money?

How about the municipality reviewing their spending and make necessary cuts.

Why is it that the FIRST thing government does is always look to raise revenue?

Screw these cameras.

Don't care if their "red light" or speed, they're nothing more than a money grab. If "safety" was REALLY the issue, they'd find a way for an ACTUAL person to write a ticket and interact with the driver to explain what they did wrong.

To just send a bill in the mail with a PAY ME letter is borderline predatory and certainly money grubbing.

Are taxes "money grubbing" also?

Are police, firefighters and teachers paid via "money grubbing" and therefore should not be paid at all?

(03-15-2018 11:23 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  Are taxes "money grubbing" also?

Are police, firefighters and teachers paid via "money grubbing" and therefore should not be paid at all?

Hi. No one said that.

(03-15-2018 11:23 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  Are taxes "money grubbing" also?

Are police, firefighters and teachers paid via "money grubbing" and therefore should not be paid at all?

We are talking about towns using speed trap cameras that account for the vast majority of their income, stay on topic knucklehead.