(01-29-2018 09:30 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 09:03 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  You've done the same thing Tang did. Complain about accusations of racism against conservatives and then say "I don't give a @#$% that the president is racist."

I have a different take. I absolutely care quite a bit if the president is racist. But I don't think Trump is racist. And I'm sorry, but the allegations that he is racist seem to me to be hyperbolic projections based upon evidence that is really quite flimsy. He certainly does things that COULD be construed as racism in a vacuum. But he does other things that refute that. He is a businessman instead of a politician, and that influences how he approaches things and how he speaks. But other actions simply don't support the notion that he is a racist.

LOL. Yes, Trump is not racist or bigoted. OK.

(01-29-2018 09:36 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 09:30 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 09:03 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  You've done the same thing Tang did. Complain about accusations of racism against conservatives and then say "I don't give a @#$% that the president is racist."

I have a different take. I absolutely care quite a bit if the president is racist. But I don't think Trump is racist. And I'm sorry, but the allegations that he is racist seem to me to be hyperbolic projections based upon evidence that is really quite flimsy. He certainly does things that COULD be construed as racism in a vacuum. But he does other things that refute that. He is a businessman instead of a politician, and that influences how he approaches things and how he speaks. But other actions simply don't support the notion that he is a racist.

LOL. Yes, Trump is not racist or bigoted. OK.

We will just have to agree to disagree. The man has been in the public eye for decades. If he were a racist, why did we not hear anything about it until he became a republican presidential candidate? If he were a racist, why would African-American unemployment be at its lowest level ever?

(01-29-2018 09:42 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 09:36 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 09:30 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 09:03 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  You've done the same thing Tang did. Complain about accusations of racism against conservatives and then say "I don't give a @#$% that the president is racist."

I have a different take. I absolutely care quite a bit if the president is racist. But I don't think Trump is racist. And I'm sorry, but the allegations that he is racist seem to me to be hyperbolic projections based upon evidence that is really quite flimsy. He certainly does things that COULD be construed as racism in a vacuum. But he does other things that refute that. He is a businessman instead of a politician, and that influences how he approaches things and how he speaks. But other actions simply don't support the notion that he is a racist.

LOL. Yes, Trump is not racist or bigoted. OK.

We will just have to agree to disagree. The man has been in the public eye for decades. If he were a racist, why did we not hear anything about it until he became a republican presidential candidate? If he were a racist, why would African-American unemployment be at its lowest level ever?

(Probably could have put my response more constructively, sorry.) But yes, we'll have to agree to disagree. I would say we have heard about it going back to the 70s, but obviously when he runs for president and makes white racial resentment a cornerstone of his campaign, it gets more attention.

Also, that last statement/question is a complete non-sequitur.

(01-29-2018 10:42 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  but obviously when he runs for president and makes white racial resentment a cornerstone of his campaign,

Guess I missed that. Can you clarify?

(01-29-2018 10:42 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  (Probably could have put my response more constructively, sorry.) But yes, we'll have to agree to disagree. I would say we have heard about it going back to the 70s,

I wouldn't.

Quote:but obviously when he runs for president and makes white racial resentment a cornerstone of his campaign, it gets more attention.

When did he do that?

Quote:Also, that last statement/question is a complete non-sequitur.

No, it isn't. Whereas others may talk a better game with people of color, he is actually doing things that help them. I wish republicans would do a better job of offering an alternative to, "Keep 'em dumb, keep 'em poor, keep 'em depending on handouts, and you'll keep them voting democrat." But sadly, only a few of them have.

As far as I am concerned, it's the, "Keep 'em dumb, etc." crowd who are the real racists.

(01-29-2018 09:42 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 09:36 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 09:30 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 09:03 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  You've done the same thing Tang did. Complain about accusations of racism against conservatives and then say "I don't give a @#$% that the president is racist."

I have a different take. I absolutely care quite a bit if the president is racist. But I don't think Trump is racist. And I'm sorry, but the allegations that he is racist seem to me to be hyperbolic projections based upon evidence that is really quite flimsy. He certainly does things that COULD be construed as racism in a vacuum. But he does other things that refute that. He is a businessman instead of a politician, and that influences how he approaches things and how he speaks. But other actions simply don't support the notion that he is a racist.

LOL. Yes, Trump is not racist or bigoted. OK.

We will just have to agree to disagree. The man has been in the public eye for decades. If he were a racist, why did we not hear anything about it until he became a republican presidential candidate? If he were a racist, why would African-American unemployment be at its lowest level ever?

Central Park 5. Apartment renting discrimination suit. The black guys counting his money quote. You did hear plenty of things about Trump and racism prior to him running for president - all of those issues I pointed are from well before he ran. Go ahead and do some light googling and you will find that these claims did not just appear as soon as Trump decided to run for office.

Look, even if Trump isn't a true racist, he has done enough while in office to make it clear he is bigoted and has, at best, a very poor understanding of racism. As some have argued to me, the shithole country comment isn't racist, but even they admit that it is entrenched in bigotry and xenaphobia (I let them split that hair, and understood why they did).

And to your last point, the black unemployment rate has been on the decline since 2011 - Trump has done nothing to accelerate the decrease in black unemployment. That's a silly talking point that people have picked up, that would only make sense if there was a substantial change in its trajectory (which is why Trump does, or should, get credit for stock market gains).

In fact, regular unemployment has followed the same trend. None of Trump's policies have been in place long enough to affect unemployment in an appreciable way on a national scale. His tax plan has the chance to, but that will take time because hiring is a long-term issue that logically would not be immediately affected in the private sector by a tax overhaul. I mean, how many news stories have come out about hiring that is actively going on at large scales? Not many, if at all, because any moves a company makes that will do that, due to the tax law changes, will not be implemented immediately.

(01-29-2018 12:48 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Look, even if Trump isn't a true racist, he has done enough while in office to make it clear he is bigoted and has, at best, a very poor understanding of racism. As some have argued to me, the shithole country comment isn't racist, but even they admit that it is entrenched in bigotry and xenaphobia (I let them split that hair, and understood why they did).

What, specifically, has he done that you are referring to?

If you want to see true racism, just try to put some Section 8 housing in an upscale Democratic neighborhood.

I don't see the shithole comment as being based in race, unless it is your explicit understanding that all shithole countries are predominantly black.

(01-29-2018 02:33 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 12:48 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Look, even if Trump isn't a true racist, he has done enough while in office to make it clear he is bigoted and has, at best, a very poor understanding of racism. As some have argued to me, the shithole country comment isn't racist, but even they admit that it is entrenched in bigotry and xenaphobia (I let them split that hair, and understood why they did).

What, specifically, has he done that you are referring to?

If you want to see true racism, just try to put some Section 8 housing in an upscale Democratic neighborhood.

I don't see the shithole comment as being based in race, unless it is your explicit understanding that all shithole countries are predominantly black.

To the bolded, I literally responded to that in my original post - that I understood why my friends didn't believe it was racist, however, it was bigoted and xenophobic.

And I also provided specific examples of, what were at best, similarly bigoted actions he has taken or things he has said, in the past. How many more examples do you want? I'm sure I could pull up an article that provides handfuls more.

(01-29-2018 02:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 02:33 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 12:48 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Look, even if Trump isn't a true racist, he has done enough while in office to make it clear he is bigoted and has, at best, a very poor understanding of racism. As some have argued to me, the shithole country comment isn't racist, but even they admit that it is entrenched in bigotry and xenaphobia (I let them split that hair, and understood why they did).

What, specifically, has he done that you are referring to?

If you want to see true racism, just try to put some Section 8 housing in an upscale Democratic neighborhood.

I don't see the shithole comment as being based in race, unless it is your explicit understanding that all shithole countries are predominantly black.

To the bolded, I literally responded to that in my original post - that I understood why my friends didn't believe it was racist, however, it was bigoted and xenophobic.

And I also provided specific examples of, what were at best, similarly bigoted actions he has taken or things he has said, in the past. How many more examples do you want? I'm sure I could pull up an article that provides handfuls more.

Explain how that was bigoted and/or xenophobic.

Pull them up. We will discuss them one by one.

(01-29-2018 05:02 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 02:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 02:33 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 12:48 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Look, even if Trump isn't a true racist, he has done enough while in office to make it clear he is bigoted and has, at best, a very poor understanding of racism. As some have argued to me, the shithole country comment isn't racist, but even they admit that it is entrenched in bigotry and xenaphobia (I let them split that hair, and understood why they did).

What, specifically, has he done that you are referring to?

If you want to see true racism, just try to put some Section 8 housing in an upscale Democratic neighborhood.

I don't see the shithole comment as being based in race, unless it is your explicit understanding that all shithole countries are predominantly black.

To the bolded, I literally responded to that in my original post - that I understood why my friends didn't believe it was racist, however, it was bigoted and xenophobic.

And I also provided specific examples of, what were at best, similarly bigoted actions he has taken or things he has said, in the past. How many more examples do you want? I'm sure I could pull up an article that provides handfuls more.

Explain how that was bigoted and/or xenophobic.

Pull them up. We will discuss them one by one.

Trump reduced the value of immigrants down to the country they come from. He opined that he didn't want more people from shithole countries. That statement there does not evaluate an immigrant based on their worth as a person, and instead evaluates them based on circumstances that are largely outside of their control. So he is prejudicing his valuation of them right there (bigoted) and then his further comments about Haitians all having AIDs is a textbook example of xenophobia.

Thoughts? And that doesn't even touch on the fact that the shithole countries he talked about were majority minority countries.

And I don't have to explain how him allegedly discriminating against blacks in housing rentals is racist, I hope.

(01-29-2018 05:13 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 05:02 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 02:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 02:33 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 12:48 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Look, even if Trump isn't a true racist, he has done enough while in office to make it clear he is bigoted and has, at best, a very poor understanding of racism. As some have argued to me, the shithole country comment isn't racist, but even they admit that it is entrenched in bigotry and xenaphobia (I let them split that hair, and understood why they did).

What, specifically, has he done that you are referring to?

If you want to see true racism, just try to put some Section 8 housing in an upscale Democratic neighborhood.

I don't see the shithole comment as being based in race, unless it is your explicit understanding that all shithole countries are predominantly black.

To the bolded, I literally responded to that in my original post - that I understood why my friends didn't believe it was racist, however, it was bigoted and xenophobic.

And I also provided specific examples of, what were at best, similarly bigoted actions he has taken or things he has said, in the past. How many more examples do you want? I'm sure I could pull up an article that provides handfuls more.

Explain how that was bigoted and/or xenophobic.

Pull them up. We will discuss them one by one.

Trump reduced the value of immigrants down to the country they come from. He opined that he didn't want more people from shithole countries. That statement there does not evaluate an immigrant based on their worth as a person, and instead evaluates them based on circumstances that are largely outside of their control. So he is prejudicing his valuation of them right there (bigoted) and then his further comments about Haitians all having AIDs is a textbook example of xenophobia.

Thoughts? And that doesn't even touch on the fact that the shithole countries he talked about were majority minority countries.

Wanting to judge immigrants on merit rather than country of origin is not racist.

“Certain Washington politicians choose to fight for foreign countries, but President Trump will always fight for the American people,” said Raj Shah, a White House spokesman. “Like other nations that have merit-based immigration, President Trump is fighting for permanent solutions that make our country stronger by welcoming those who can contribute to our society, grow our economy and assimilate into our great nation.”

Wht does the left always think merit based actions are racist?

Quote:And I don't have to explain how him allegedly discriminating against blacks in housing rentals is racist, I hope.

First, doesn't "alleged" mean accused but unproven? Second, did you miss my statement about the Section 8 housing?

Third, you said this:

",,, he has done enough while in office to make it clear he is bigoted and has, at best, a very poor understanding of racism."

So, other than complaints from decades ago, what do you have?

(01-29-2018 05:32 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 05:13 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 05:02 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 02:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 02:33 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  What, specifically, has he done that you are referring to?

If you want to see true racism, just try to put some Section 8 housing in an upscale Democratic neighborhood.

I don't see the shithole comment as being based in race, unless it is your explicit understanding that all shithole countries are predominantly black.

To the bolded, I literally responded to that in my original post - that I understood why my friends didn't believe it was racist, however, it was bigoted and xenophobic.

And I also provided specific examples of, what were at best, similarly bigoted actions he has taken or things he has said, in the past. How many more examples do you want? I'm sure I could pull up an article that provides handfuls more.

Explain how that was bigoted and/or xenophobic.

Pull them up. We will discuss them one by one.

Trump reduced the value of immigrants down to the country they come from. He opined that he didn't want more people from shithole countries. That statement there does not evaluate an immigrant based on their worth as a person, and instead evaluates them based on circumstances that are largely outside of their control. So he is prejudicing his valuation of them right there (bigoted) and then his further comments about Haitians all having AIDs is a textbook example of xenophobia.

Thoughts? And that doesn't even touch on the fact that the shithole countries he talked about were majority minority countries.

Wanting to judge immigrants on merit rather than country of origin is not racist.

“Certain Washington politicians choose to fight for foreign countries, but President Trump will always fight for the American people,” said Raj Shah, a White House spokesman. “Like other nations that have merit-based immigration, President Trump is fighting for permanent solutions that make our country stronger by welcoming those who can contribute to our society, grow our economy and assimilate into our great nation.”

Wht does the left always think merit based actions are racist?

Quote:And I don't have to explain how him allegedly discriminating against blacks in housing rentals is racist, I hope.

First, doesn't "alleged" mean accused but unproven? Second, did you miss my statement about the Section 8 housing?

Third, you said this:

",,, he has done enough while in office to make it clear he is bigoted and has, at best, a very poor understanding of racism."

So, other than complaints from decades ago, what do you have?

Holy heck - the bolded is literally what I just said. Trump, when talking about shithole countries, was doing the EXACT opposite. And that was my rationale for those comments being, at best, xenophobic and bigoted.

(01-29-2018 06:00 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 05:32 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 05:13 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 05:02 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 02:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  To the bolded, I literally responded to that in my original post - that I understood why my friends didn't believe it was racist, however, it was bigoted and xenophobic.

And I also provided specific examples of, what were at best, similarly bigoted actions he has taken or things he has said, in the past. How many more examples do you want? I'm sure I could pull up an article that provides handfuls more.

Explain how that was bigoted and/or xenophobic.

Pull them up. We will discuss them one by one.

Trump reduced the value of immigrants down to the country they come from. He opined that he didn't want more people from shithole countries. That statement there does not evaluate an immigrant based on their worth as a person, and instead evaluates them based on circumstances that are largely outside of their control. So he is prejudicing his valuation of them right there (bigoted) and then his further comments about Haitians all having AIDs is a textbook example of xenophobia.

Thoughts? And that doesn't even touch on the fact that the shithole countries he talked about were majority minority countries.

Wanting to judge immigrants on merit rather than country of origin is not racist.

“Certain Washington politicians choose to fight for foreign countries, but President Trump will always fight for the American people,” said Raj Shah, a White House spokesman. “Like other nations that have merit-based immigration, President Trump is fighting for permanent solutions that make our country stronger by welcoming those who can contribute to our society, grow our economy and assimilate into our great nation.”

Wht does the left always think merit based actions are racist?

Quote:And I don't have to explain how him allegedly discriminating against blacks in housing rentals is racist, I hope.

First, doesn't "alleged" mean accused but unproven? Second, did you miss my statement about the Section 8 housing?

Third, you said this:

",,, he has done enough while in office to make it clear he is bigoted and has, at best, a very poor understanding of racism."

So, other than complaints from decades ago, what do you have?

Holy heck - the bolded is literally what I just said. Trump, when talking about shithole countries, was doing the EXACT opposite. And that was my rationale for those comments being, at best, xenophobic and bigoted.

Trump is not the one wanting to admit people based on their country of origin. If immigration is limited to a certain number, and a certain percentage of that number is required to be from countries X, Y, and Z, then for every person admitted from those countries, somebody who is likely better qualified is denied. Do we really need more illiterate and unskilled refugees and less educated and trained people? Would it have suited you better if instead of Norway, he had said Kenya or India?

and how is it xenophobic? Do you understand what xenophobic means? Definition of xenophobia You need to explain how you reach these conclusions instead of just repeating them.

(01-29-2018 02:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 02:33 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 12:48 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Look, even if Trump isn't a true racist, he has done enough while in office to make it clear he is bigoted and has, at best, a very poor understanding of racism. As some have argued to me, the shithole country comment isn't racist, but even they admit that it is entrenched in bigotry and xenaphobia (I let them split that hair, and understood why they did).

What, specifically, has he done that you are referring to?
If you want to see true racism, just try to put some Section 8 housing in an upscale Democratic neighborhood.
I don't see the shithole comment as being based in race, unless it is your explicit understanding that all shithole countries are predominantly black.

To the bolded, I literally responded to that in my original post - that I understood why my friends didn't believe it was racist, however, it was bigoted and xenophobic.

Not buying.

Quote:And I also provided specific examples of, what were at best, similarly bigoted actions he has taken or things he has said, in the past. How many more examples do you want? I'm sure I could pull up an article that provides handfuls more.

So you cherry picked some examples and ignored other examples which would indicate just the opposite, such as his role in desegregating Mar-a-Lago.

I find your arguments uncompelling. You're going to have to find examples that are more on point, and explain the ones that don't fit your narrative.

(01-29-2018 10:49 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 06:00 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 05:32 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 05:13 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 05:02 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Explain how that was bigoted and/or xenophobic.

Pull them up. We will discuss them one by one.

Trump reduced the value of immigrants down to the country they come from. He opined that he didn't want more people from shithole countries. That statement there does not evaluate an immigrant based on their worth as a person, and instead evaluates them based on circumstances that are largely outside of their control. So he is prejudicing his valuation of them right there (bigoted) and then his further comments about Haitians all having AIDs is a textbook example of xenophobia.

Thoughts? And that doesn't even touch on the fact that the shithole countries he talked about were majority minority countries.

Wanting to judge immigrants on merit rather than country of origin is not racist.

“Certain Washington politicians choose to fight for foreign countries, but President Trump will always fight for the American people,” said Raj Shah, a White House spokesman. “Like other nations that have merit-based immigration, President Trump is fighting for permanent solutions that make our country stronger by welcoming those who can contribute to our society, grow our economy and assimilate into our great nation.”

Wht does the left always think merit based actions are racist?

Quote:And I don't have to explain how him allegedly discriminating against blacks in housing rentals is racist, I hope.

First, doesn't "alleged" mean accused but unproven? Second, did you miss my statement about the Section 8 housing?

Third, you said this:

",,, he has done enough while in office to make it clear he is bigoted and has, at best, a very poor understanding of racism."

So, other than complaints from decades ago, what do you have?

Holy heck - the bolded is literally what I just said. Trump, when talking about shithole countries, was doing the EXACT opposite. And that was my rationale for those comments being, at best, xenophobic and bigoted.

Trump is not the one wanting to admit people based on their country of origin. If immigration is limited to a certain number, and a certain percentage of that number is required to be from countries X, Y, and Z, then for every person admitted from those countries, somebody who is likely better qualified is denied. Do we really need more illiterate and unskilled refugees and less educated and trained people? Would it have suited you better if instead of Norway, he had said Kenya or India?

and how is it xenophobic? Do you understand what xenophobic means? Definition of xenophobia You need to explain how you reach these conclusions instead of just repeating them.

OO - are you intentionally misreading what I said and mischaracterizing Trump’s quote?

(01-29-2018 11:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 02:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 02:33 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 12:48 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Look, even if Trump isn't a true racist, he has done enough while in office to make it clear he is bigoted and has, at best, a very poor understanding of racism. As some have argued to me, the shithole country comment isn't racist, but even they admit that it is entrenched in bigotry and xenaphobia (I let them split that hair, and understood why they did).

What, specifically, has he done that you are referring to?
If you want to see true racism, just try to put some Section 8 housing in an upscale Democratic neighborhood.
I don't see the shithole comment as being based in race, unless it is your explicit understanding that all shithole countries are predominantly black.

To the bolded, I literally responded to that in my original post - that I understood why my friends didn't believe it was racist, however, it was bigoted and xenophobic.

Not buying.

Quote:And I also provided specific examples of, what were at best, similarly bigoted actions he has taken or things he has said, in the past. How many more examples do you want? I'm sure I could pull up an article that provides handfuls more.

So you cherry picked some examples and ignored other examples which would indicate just the opposite, such as his role in desegregating Mar-a-Lago.

I find your arguments uncompelling. You're going to have to find examples that are more on point, and explain the ones that don't fit your narrative.

So you’re not buying that Trump saying he didn’t want immigrants from shithole countries/continents (which devalues an immigrant based solely on their place of origin), that all Haitians have AIDS, or that Nigerians would never go back to their huts are not, at best, xenophobic and bigoted????

(01-30-2018 07:26 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 10:49 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 06:00 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 05:32 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 05:13 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Trump reduced the value of immigrants down to the country they come from. He opined that he didn't want more people from shithole countries. That statement there does not evaluate an immigrant based on their worth as a person, and instead evaluates them based on circumstances that are largely outside of their control. So he is prejudicing his valuation of them right there (bigoted) and then his further comments about Haitians all having AIDs is a textbook example of xenophobia.

Thoughts? And that doesn't even touch on the fact that the shithole countries he talked about were majority minority countries.

Wanting to judge immigrants on merit rather than country of origin is not racist.

“Certain Washington politicians choose to fight for foreign countries, but President Trump will always fight for the American people,” said Raj Shah, a White House spokesman. “Like other nations that have merit-based immigration, President Trump is fighting for permanent solutions that make our country stronger by welcoming those who can contribute to our society, grow our economy and assimilate into our great nation.”

Wht does the left always think merit based actions are racist?

Quote:And I don't have to explain how him allegedly discriminating against blacks in housing rentals is racist, I hope.

First, doesn't "alleged" mean accused but unproven? Second, did you miss my statement about the Section 8 housing?

Third, you said this:

",,, he has done enough while in office to make it clear he is bigoted and has, at best, a very poor understanding of racism."

So, other than complaints from decades ago, what do you have?

Holy heck - the bolded is literally what I just said. Trump, when talking about shithole countries, was doing the EXACT opposite. And that was my rationale for those comments being, at best, xenophobic and bigoted.

Trump is not the one wanting to admit people based on their country of origin. If immigration is limited to a certain number, and a certain percentage of that number is required to be from countries X, Y, and Z, then for every person admitted from those countries, somebody who is likely better qualified is denied. Do we really need more illiterate and unskilled refugees and less educated and trained people? Would it have suited you better if instead of Norway, he had said Kenya or India?

and how is it xenophobic? Do you understand what xenophobic means? Definition of xenophobia You need to explain how you reach these conclusions instead of just repeating them.

OO - are you intentionally misreading what I said and mischaracterizing Trump’s quote?

Neither intentionally nor mischaracterizing, IMO. Why don't you just tell us exactly why you think Trump, in office, has been racist and xenophobic. Spell it out. I see nothing racist about the shithole countries comment. Lots of countries are shitholes. Let me know when you schedule your vacation to Somalia. Personally, I would rather go to Spain. Nothing racial about it.

As for xenophobia, I see Trump mixing and at ease with all sorts of people from all sorts of countries.

The Democratic leadership has been active in trying to characterize everything Trump does or says as racist/somethingophobic. The rank and file repeats this stuff. Just show me how you got to that point yourself.

Do you agree with Trump that our immigration system should be merit based? If so, how is that racist? If not, why not?

what has he done/said that makes you think he is xenophobic? Did he run in fear from a black man?

(01-30-2018 07:28 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 11:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 02:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 02:33 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 12:48 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Look, even if Trump isn't a true racist, he has done enough while in office to make it clear he is bigoted and has, at best, a very poor understanding of racism. As some have argued to me, the shithole country comment isn't racist, but even they admit that it is entrenched in bigotry and xenaphobia (I let them split that hair, and understood why they did).

What, specifically, has he done that you are referring to?
If you want to see true racism, just try to put some Section 8 housing in an upscale Democratic neighborhood.
I don't see the shithole comment as being based in race, unless it is your explicit understanding that all shithole countries are predominantly black.

To the bolded, I literally responded to that in my original post - that I understood why my friends didn't believe it was racist, however, it was bigoted and xenophobic.

Not buying.

Quote:And I also provided specific examples of, what were at best, similarly bigoted actions he has taken or things he has said, in the past. How many more examples do you want? I'm sure I could pull up an article that provides handfuls more.

So you cherry picked some examples and ignored other examples which would indicate just the opposite, such as his role in desegregating Mar-a-Lago.

I find your arguments uncompelling. You're going to have to find examples that are more on point, and explain the ones that don't fit your narrative.

So you’re not buying that Trump saying he didn’t want immigrants from shithole countries/continents (which devalues an immigrant based solely on their place of origin), that all Haitians have AIDS, or that Nigerians would never go back to their huts are not, at best, xenophobic and bigoted????

He was arguing FOR merit based immigration against those who want to value those same people solely on their place of origin.

"President Trump grew frustrated with lawmakers Thursday in the Oval Office when they discussed protecting immigrants from Haiti, El Salvador and African countries as part of a bipartisan immigration deal, according to several people briefed on the meeting". - WashPo

You are taking the other comments as fact when they are disputed.

I sincerely doubt that Trump is the least racist person there is, as he claims. I also doubt that he is more racist than most of the people in congress, perhaps all of them. Just a convenient peg on which the Resistance can hang its hat.

I heard a pundit say that Republicans oppose more immigration from black or brown countries and Democrats oppose immigration from white or Asian countries for the same reason - more voters for the other side. I don't know if that is true, but it sounds more reasonable than Republicans are racists, Democrats are pure of heart.

(01-30-2018 09:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-30-2018 07:28 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 11:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 02:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 02:33 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  What, specifically, has he done that you are referring to?
If you want to see true racism, just try to put some Section 8 housing in an upscale Democratic neighborhood.
I don't see the shithole comment as being based in race, unless it is your explicit understanding that all shithole countries are predominantly black.

To the bolded, I literally responded to that in my original post - that I understood why my friends didn't believe it was racist, however, it was bigoted and xenophobic.

Not buying.

Quote:And I also provided specific examples of, what were at best, similarly bigoted actions he has taken or things he has said, in the past. How many more examples do you want? I'm sure I could pull up an article that provides handfuls more.

So you cherry picked some examples and ignored other examples which would indicate just the opposite, such as his role in desegregating Mar-a-Lago.

I find your arguments uncompelling. You're going to have to find examples that are more on point, and explain the ones that don't fit your narrative.

So you’re not buying that Trump saying he didn’t want immigrants from shithole countries/continents (which devalues an immigrant based solely on their place of origin), that all Haitians have AIDS, or that Nigerians would never go back to their huts are not, at best, xenophobic and bigoted????

He was arguing FOR merit based immigration against those who want to value those same people solely on their place of origin.

"President Trump grew frustrated with lawmakers Thursday in the Oval Office when they discussed protecting immigrants from Haiti, El Salvador and African countries as part of a bipartisan immigration deal, according to several people briefed on the meeting". - WashPo

You are taking the other comments as fact when they are disputed.

I sincerely doubt that Trump is the least racist person there is, as he claims. I also doubt that he is more racist than most of the people in congress, perhaps all of them. Just a convenient peg on which the Resistance can hang its hat.

I heard a pundit say that Republicans oppose more immigration from black or brown countries and Democrats oppose immigration from white or Asian countries for the same reason - more voters for the other side. I don't know if that is true, but it sounds more reasonable than Republicans are racists, Democratic are pure of heart.

OO - finish that quoted article. The very next line says:

Quote: “Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?” Trump said, according to these people, referring to countries mentioned by the lawmakers.

Trump then suggested that the United States should instead bring more people from countries such as Norway, whose prime minister he met with Wednesday. The president, according to a White House official, also suggested he would be open to more immigrants from Asian countries because he felt that they help the United States economically.
In addition, the president singled out Haiti, telling lawmakers that immigrants from that country must be left out of any deal, these people said.

“Why do we need more Haitians?” Trump said, according to people familiar with the meeting. “Take them out.”

While Trump's public opinion is using a merit based system (while I'm not 100% about going all merit, I personally don't see that system as racist, which you seem to keep trying to tie to me), his private comments indicate he is not.

If Trump was 100% behind merit based immigration, he would not be prejudiced against people from shithole countries, because a person's merit has no connection to their place of origin. In fact, Nigerians, who come from the African countries he called shitholes, are some of the most, if not THE most, successful immigrant groups in the country.

Spelling this out even more (as I have done already), this comment is at BEST bigoted and xenophobic. He is showing an obvious prejudice against people because of where they come from and is only using their ethnicity and place of origin as the basis for that.

His previous comments about all Haitians having AIDs and Nigerians wanting to return to their huts echo those same sentiments.

As I have also said, let's go ahead and drop the racist nomenclature because it appears to trigger all the snowflakes on this board, and because it is much clearer that Trump is bigoted and xenophobic.

His repeated calls for banning Muslim immigrants from entering the US while he was campaigning (not to be confused with the travel ban), his comments about Judge Curiel being unable to do his job due to his race, his handling of the Charlottesville response, his use of Twitter to share anti-Muslim videos (some of which have been proven to be completely fabricated), him responding to April Ryan that she (a reporter) should set up a meeting with the Congressional Black Caucus, and so on, make it clear that Trump is intolerant of others and has animus towards "others" (the textbook definitions of bigotry and xenophobia).

Did that spell it out enough for you?

(01-30-2018 09:37 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-30-2018 09:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(01-30-2018 07:28 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 11:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 02:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  To the bolded, I literally responded to that in my original post - that I understood why my friends didn't believe it was racist, however, it was bigoted and xenophobic.

Not buying.

Quote:And I also provided specific examples of, what were at best, similarly bigoted actions he has taken or things he has said, in the past. How many more examples do you want? I'm sure I could pull up an article that provides handfuls more.

So you cherry picked some examples and ignored other examples which would indicate just the opposite, such as his role in desegregating Mar-a-Lago.

I find your arguments uncompelling. You're going to have to find examples that are more on point, and explain the ones that don't fit your narrative.

So you’re not buying that Trump saying he didn’t want immigrants from shithole countries/continents (which devalues an immigrant based solely on their place of origin), that all Haitians have AIDS, or that Nigerians would never go back to their huts are not, at best, xenophobic and bigoted????

He was arguing FOR merit based immigration against those who want to value those same people solely on their place of origin.

"President Trump grew frustrated with lawmakers Thursday in the Oval Office when they discussed protecting immigrants from Haiti, El Salvador and African countries as part of a bipartisan immigration deal, according to several people briefed on the meeting". - WashPo

You are taking the other comments as fact when they are disputed.

I sincerely doubt that Trump is the least racist person there is, as he claims. I also doubt that he is more racist than most of the people in congress, perhaps all of them. Just a convenient peg on which the Resistance can hang its hat.

I heard a pundit say that Republicans oppose more immigration from black or brown countries and Democrats oppose immigration from white or Asian countries for the same reason - more voters for the other side. I don't know if that is true, but it sounds more reasonable than Republicans are racists, Democratic are pure of heart.

OO - finish that quoted article. The very next line says:

Quote: “Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?” Trump said, according to these people, referring to countries mentioned by the lawmakers.

Trump then suggested that the United States should instead bring more people from countries such as Norway, whose prime minister he met with Wednesday. The president, according to a White House official, also suggested he would be open to more immigrants from Asian countries because he felt that they help the United States economically.
In addition, the president singled out Haiti, telling lawmakers that immigrants from that country must be left out of any deal, these people said.

“Why do we need more Haitians?” Trump said, according to people familiar with the meeting. “Take them out.”

While Trump's public opinion is using a merit based system (while I'm not 100% about going all merit, I personally don't see that system as racist, which you seem to keep trying to tie to me), his private comments indicate he is not.

If Trump was 100% behind merit based immigration, he would not be prejudiced against people from shithole countries, because a person's merit has no connection to their place of origin. In fact, Nigerians, who come from the African countries he called shitholes, are some of the most, if not THE most, successful immigrant groups in the country.

Spelling this out even more (as I have done already), this comment is at BEST bigoted and xenophobic. He is showing an obvious prejudice against people because of where they come from and is only using their ethnicity and place of origin as the basis for that.

His previous comments about all Haitians having AIDs and Nigerians wanting to return to their huts echo those same sentiments.

As I have also said, let's go ahead and drop the racist nomenclature because it appears to trigger all the snowflakes on this board, and because it is much clearer that Trump is bigoted and xenophobic.

His repeated calls for banning Muslim immigrants from entering the US while he was campaigning (not to be confused with the travel ban), his comments about Judge Curiel being unable to do his job due to his race, his handling of the Charlottesville response, his use of Twitter to share anti-Muslim videos (some of which have been proven to be completely fabricated), him responding to April Ryan that she (a reporter) should set up a meeting with the Congressional Black Caucus, and so on, make it clear that Trump is intolerant of others and has animus towards "others" (the textbook definitions of bigotry and xenophobia).

Did that spell it out enough for you?

His response to those who want to reserve places for people from certain countries could certainly have been more artful. The gist is still that people should be admitted on merit, not country of origin. Who was arguing for country of origin?

You are still taking reported comments that are disputed as facts.

His call for a ban on Muslims entering the country was only until they could figure out what was going on. The travel was the result of that, and it failed to ban Muslims from a lot of places.

some of those others I am unfamiliar with, despite your insistence that you have previously cited them. I have no idea why he referred April Ryan (who?) to the CBC.

I am beginning to lose hope for you.