(12-22-2017 08:00 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  No one is getting bent out of shape. But you'd rather have speed than not have it.

What was Lynch's 40 time?

4.6+ at combine. The 40 to me is a lot about the first ten yards as opposed to top end speed. Guys can shave a tenth or more by learning how to get off the line correctly. That's why I think some of the guys who ran 4.6 but played fast are mislabeled.

(12-22-2017 08:09 PM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 08:00 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  No one is getting bent out of shape. But you'd rather have speed than not have it.

What was Lynch's 40 time?

4.6+ at combine. The 40 to me is a lot about the first ten yards as opposed to top end speed. Guys can shave a tenth or more by learning how to get off the line correctly. That's why I think some of the guys who ran 4.6 but played fast are mislabeled.

Thats why Wolfe was so good - the first 10 yards.

(12-22-2017 08:09 PM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 08:00 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  No one is getting bent out of shape. But you'd rather have speed than not have it.

What was Lynch's 40 time?

4.6+ at combine. The 40 to me is a lot about the first ten yards as opposed to top end speed. Guys can shave a tenth or more by learning how to get off the line correctly. That's why I think some of the guys who ran 4.6 but played fast are mislabeled.

Lynch seemed very, very fast the first few long runs of his NIU career. He slowed a lot after he bulked up and took all the hits.

To me, Lynch always seemed fast enough. Not blazing of course but I think he surprised people. It helped that they couldn't just get one arm on him and bring him down.

(12-22-2017 07:06 PM)NIUfrank Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 03:17 PM)armour248 Wrote:  Dri Archer ran a 4.26

Anquan Boldin ran a 4.71

Larry Fitzgerald ran a 4.63

Dumb stat. Now I'll look 100 other great receivers and 90 % will be 4.5 or below

They measure speed because for most part it matters.

Wrong, I don't think you realize how fast 4.5 is. The problem is most of these kids say they run 4.4 when they are not even close. Go back and look at the combine times for the 40 over the last 5 years and I think you will be surprised how many run that. Getting timed by a Pro Scout is much different then a high school or college coach. I bet for every one guy that breaks 4.5 I could give you 10 that were above that mark.

(12-22-2017 08:23 PM)prairiedawg Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 08:09 PM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 08:00 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  No one is getting bent out of shape. But you'd rather have speed than not have it.

What was Lynch's 40 time?

4.6+ at combine. The 40 to me is a lot about the first ten yards as opposed to top end speed. Guys can shave a tenth or more by learning how to get off the line correctly. That's why I think some of the guys who ran 4.6 but played fast are mislabeled.

Lynch seemed very, very fast the first few long runs of his NIU career. He slowed a lot after he bulked up and took all the hits.

Totally. He seemed very fast then later he became a bit of a power runner and looked large. But he probably had to bulk up due to the number of carries. I don't remember him getting caught from behind. I have a video of him and Wolfe on 60+ yard runs I combined and they are dead even from the 50 to the goal line.

(12-22-2017 08:30 PM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 08:23 PM)prairiedawg Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 08:09 PM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 08:00 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  No one is getting bent out of shape. But you'd rather have speed than not have it.

What was Lynch's 40 time?

4.6+ at combine. The 40 to me is a lot about the first ten yards as opposed to top end speed. Guys can shave a tenth or more by learning how to get off the line correctly. That's why I think some of the guys who ran 4.6 but played fast are mislabeled.

Lynch seemed very, very fast the first few long runs of his NIU career. He slowed a lot after he bulked up and took all the hits.

Totally. He seemed very fast then later he became a bit of a power runner and looked large. But he probably had to bulk up due to the number of carries. I don't remember him getting caught from behind. I have a video of him and Wolfe on 60+ yard runs I combined and they are dead even from the 50 to the goal line.

You're bringing back fond memories.

(12-22-2017 08:30 PM)Bears85 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 07:06 PM)NIUfrank Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 03:17 PM)armour248 Wrote:  Dri Archer ran a 4.26

Anquan Boldin ran a 4.71

Larry Fitzgerald ran a 4.63

Dumb stat. Now I'll look 100 other great receivers and 90 % will be 4.5 or below

They measure speed because for most part it matters.

Wrong, I don't think you realize how fast 4.5 is. The problem is most of these kids say they run 4.4 when they are not even close. Go back and look at the combine times for the 40 over the last 5 years and I think you will be surprised how many run that. Getting timed by a Pro Scout is much different then a high school or college coach. I bet for every one guy that breaks 4.5 I could give you 10 that were above that mark.

Speed is important, but in reality not many guys are sub 4.5. Its a measure of athletic ability.

I like looking at vertical and 40 combined. For example we have a recruit Hall with a VJ of 39+ and a 40 of 4,71.The VJ tells me he's fast not the 40. Never saw a skill with a 39 VJ who could not run. Likewise if a VJ is sub 30 he better NOT be a db and I do not care what the 40 time says.

VJs confirm athletic ability and the speed to deliver a hit.. Stunned to see TE recruit Robinson has a 40 inch VJ.

Love the athletic ability of the class and the length / height brought in. Coaches did a great job.

(12-22-2017 09:18 PM)NIU05 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 08:30 PM)Bears85 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 07:06 PM)NIUfrank Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 03:17 PM)armour248 Wrote:  Dri Archer ran a 4.26

Anquan Boldin ran a 4.71

Larry Fitzgerald ran a 4.63

Dumb stat. Now I'll look 100 other great receivers and 90 % will be 4.5 or below

They measure speed because for most part it matters.

Wrong, I don't think you realize how fast 4.5 is. The problem is most of these kids say they run 4.4 when they are not even close. Go back and look at the combine times for the 40 over the last 5 years and I think you will be surprised how many run that. Getting timed by a Pro Scout is much different then a high school or college coach. I bet for every one guy that breaks 4.5 I could give you 10 that were above that mark.

Speed is important, but in reality not many guys are sub 4.5. Its a measure of athletic ability.

I like looking at vertical and 40 combined. For example we have a recruit Hall with a VJ of 39+ and a 40 of 4,71.The VJ tells me he's fast not the 40. Never saw a skill with a 39 VJ who could not run. Likewise if a VJ is sub 30 he better NOT be a db and I do not care what the 40 time says.

VJs confirm athletic ability and the speed to deliver a hit.. Stunned to see TE recruit Robinson has a 40 inch VJ.

Love the athletic ability of the class and the length / height brought in. Coaches did a great job.

Are you talking about WR only? Since vertical is of little use elsewhere.

(12-22-2017 09:21 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 09:18 PM)NIU05 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 08:30 PM)Bears85 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 07:06 PM)NIUfrank Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 03:17 PM)armour248 Wrote:  Dri Archer ran a 4.26

Anquan Boldin ran a 4.71

Larry Fitzgerald ran a 4.63

Dumb stat. Now I'll look 100 other great receivers and 90 % will be 4.5 or below

They measure speed because for most part it matters.

Wrong, I don't think you realize how fast 4.5 is. The problem is most of these kids say they run 4.4 when they are not even close. Go back and look at the combine times for the 40 over the last 5 years and I think you will be surprised how many run that. Getting timed by a Pro Scout is much different then a high school or college coach. I bet for every one guy that breaks 4.5 I could give you 10 that were above that mark.

Speed is important, but in reality not many guys are sub 4.5. Its a measure of athletic ability.

I like looking at vertical and 40 combined. For example we have a recruit Hall with a VJ of 39+ and a 40 of 4,71.The VJ tells me he's fast not the 40. Never saw a skill with a 39 VJ who could not run. Likewise if a VJ is sub 30 he better NOT be a db and I do not care what the 40 time says.

VJs confirm athletic ability and the speed to deliver a hit.. Stunned to see TE recruit Robinson has a 40 inch VJ.

Love the athletic ability of the class and the length / height brought in. Coaches did a great job.

Are you talking about WR only? Since vertical is of little use elsewhere.

Its a good measurement of athletic ability period. Its not a tell all for football ability. A QB who has a great VJ does not mean he can throw or read defenses. An OLineman would rather see broad jump, and again it does not mean the best jumper is the best blocker.

Looking to find athletes that can EXPLODE at contact. The guy who gets there the quickest and EXPLODES wins. Quickness in sports (not track) is recognizing the situation and going. Some 4,5 guys play at 4.7 because they just cant figure it out.Some 4.6 guys get there sooner than 4.5 guys. Coaches have to coach up the guys who dont know where to stand or where to lean / position themselves.

(12-22-2017 09:55 PM)NIU05 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 09:21 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 09:18 PM)NIU05 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 08:30 PM)Bears85 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 07:06 PM)NIUfrank Wrote:  Dumb stat. Now I'll look 100 other great receivers and 90 % will be 4.5 or below

They measure speed because for most part it matters.

Wrong, I don't think you realize how fast 4.5 is. The problem is most of these kids say they run 4.4 when they are not even close. Go back and look at the combine times for the 40 over the last 5 years and I think you will be surprised how many run that. Getting timed by a Pro Scout is much different then a high school or college coach. I bet for every one guy that breaks 4.5 I could give you 10 that were above that mark.

Speed is important, but in reality not many guys are sub 4.5. Its a measure of athletic ability.

I like looking at vertical and 40 combined. For example we have a recruit Hall with a VJ of 39+ and a 40 of 4,71.The VJ tells me he's fast not the 40. Never saw a skill with a 39 VJ who could not run. Likewise if a VJ is sub 30 he better NOT be a db and I do not care what the 40 time says.

VJs confirm athletic ability and the speed to deliver a hit.. Stunned to see TE recruit Robinson has a 40 inch VJ.

Love the athletic ability of the class and the length / height brought in. Coaches did a great job.

Are you talking about WR only? Since vertical is of little use elsewhere.

Its a good measurement of athletic ability period. Its not a tell all for football ability. A QB who has a great VJ does not mean he can throw or read defenses. An OLineman would rather see broad jump, and again it does not mean the best jumper is the best blocker.

Looking to find athletes that can EXPLODE at contact. The guy who gets there the quickest and EXPLODES wins. Quickness in sports (not track) is recognizing the situation and going. Some 4,5 guys play at 4.7 because they just cant figure it out.Some 4.6 guys get there sooner than 4.5 guys. Coaches have to coach up the guys who dont know where to stand or where to lean / position themselves.

I like the 3 cone drill. Change of direction is a great asset for WRs. Especially in the slot. Quickness is as important as speed. its easier to get open by a move than it is by pure speed.

(12-22-2017 10:14 PM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 09:55 PM)NIU05 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 09:21 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 09:18 PM)NIU05 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 08:30 PM)Bears85 Wrote:  Wrong, I don't think you realize how fast 4.5 is. The problem is most of these kids say they run 4.4 when they are not even close. Go back and look at the combine times for the 40 over the last 5 years and I think you will be surprised how many run that. Getting timed by a Pro Scout is much different then a high school or college coach. I bet for every one guy that breaks 4.5 I could give you 10 that were above that mark.

Speed is important, but in reality not many guys are sub 4.5. Its a measure of athletic ability.

I like looking at vertical and 40 combined. For example we have a recruit Hall with a VJ of 39+ and a 40 of 4,71.The VJ tells me he's fast not the 40. Never saw a skill with a 39 VJ who could not run. Likewise if a VJ is sub 30 he better NOT be a db and I do not care what the 40 time says.

VJs confirm athletic ability and the speed to deliver a hit.. Stunned to see TE recruit Robinson has a 40 inch VJ.

Love the athletic ability of the class and the length / height brought in. Coaches did a great job.

Are you talking about WR only? Since vertical is of little use elsewhere.

Its a good measurement of athletic ability period. Its not a tell all for football ability. A QB who has a great VJ does not mean he can throw or read defenses. An OLineman would rather see broad jump, and again it does not mean the best jumper is the best blocker.

Looking to find athletes that can EXPLODE at contact. The guy who gets there the quickest and EXPLODES wins. Quickness in sports (not track) is recognizing the situation and going. Some 4,5 guys play at 4.7 because they just cant figure it out.Some 4.6 guys get there sooner than 4.5 guys. Coaches have to coach up the guys who dont know where to stand or where to lean / position themselves.

I like the 3 cone drill. Change of direction is a great asset for WRs. Especially in the slot. Quickness is as important as speed. its easier to get open by a move than it is by pure speed.

Agree.
You need a couple different skill sets for your WRs, I like a mix of those who can do the cone great and those 6'4 - 6'5 guys who are effective Red Zone / body position receivers.

(12-22-2017 07:06 PM)NIUfrank Wrote:  Dumb stat. Now I'll look 100 other great receivers and 90 % will be 4.5 or below

They measure speed because for most part it matters.

Hah. Yeah, 90% of the greatest WRs ran 4.5 or better. I guess AJ Green, Dez Bryant, Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald and all the other 4.5+ guys are just the outliers.

(12-22-2017 10:40 PM)armour248 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 07:06 PM)NIUfrank Wrote:  Dumb stat. Now I'll look 100 other great receivers and 90 % will be 4.5 or below

They measure speed because for most part it matters.

Hah. Yeah, 90% of the greatest WRs ran 4.5 or better. I guess AJ Green, Dez Bryant, Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald and all the other 4.5+ guys are just the outliers.

There's part of your 5% of your 10%. my point is You can use stats to prove any agrument. Now you can also pick 90 great receivers that ran 4.5 or better.

Like I said it's not always everything, but obviously it's a big factor or personnel peeps wouldn't drool over it. Guys you listed are great possession receivers who do everything else excellent. It's not an exact science.

Same thing when idea takes a 2* and coaches them up to NFL.

(12-22-2017 10:40 PM)armour248 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 07:06 PM)NIUfrank Wrote:  Dumb stat. Now I'll look 100 other great receivers and 90 % will be 4.5 or below

They measure speed because for most part it matters.

Hah. Yeah, 90% of the greatest WRs ran 4.5 or better. I guess AJ Green, Dez Bryant, Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald and all the other 4.5+ guys are just the outliers.

Green and Fitzgerald ran 4.48. Bryant a 4.52. Rice 4.59. Bolden is really the only outlier at 4.7. Both carter and rice ran their 40s in a day when athletes didn't train for the 40 like they do now. The 40 isn't a perfect measure of speed. Just a general guide. And players succeed on other things like size(green, fitz)quickness(Welker), precision(largent), strength (Bolden), etc. what would rice or carter be like
If they ran 4.3?

(12-22-2017 10:53 PM)NIUfrank Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 10:40 PM)armour248 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 07:06 PM)NIUfrank Wrote:  Dumb stat. Now I'll look 100 other great receivers and 90 % will be 4.5 or below

They measure speed because for most part it matters.

Hah. Yeah, 90% of the greatest WRs ran 4.5 or better. I guess AJ Green, Dez Bryant, Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald and all the other 4.5+ guys are just the outliers.

There's part of your 5% of your 10%. my point is You can use stats to prove any agrument. Now you can also pick 90 great receivers that ran 4.5 or better.

Like I said it's not always everything, but obviously it's a big factor or personnel peeps wouldn't drool over it. Guys you listed are great possession receivers who do everything else excellent. It's not an exact science.

Same thing when idea takes a 2* and coaches them up to NFL.

I do not think people realize how rare it is to run a sub 4.5 forty. The first thing you need to know is who is doing the timing and what method is being used. For example there is a big difference between laser vs stop watch. Laser time can be up to .2 of a second slower than stop watch times. Below are the average times in the NFL combine (by position) You will NOT find that 90% run under a 4.5 forty.
*****************************************
Average time by position[edit]
According to a five-year NFL combine report, wide receivers and cornerbacks had the fastest average times at 4.55, followed by running backs at 4.59.

Position Time
Wide receiver 4.55
Cornerback 4.55
Running back 4.59
Safety 4.62
Outside linebacker 4.74
Tight end 4.77
Fullback 4.80
Inside linebacker 4.80
Quarterback 4.87
Defensive end 4.88
Defensive tackle 5.13
Center 5.30
Offensive tackle 5.32
Offensive guard 5.36

(12-23-2017 12:39 AM)JKHuskie45 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 10:53 PM)NIUfrank Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 10:40 PM)armour248 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 07:06 PM)NIUfrank Wrote:  Dumb stat. Now I'll look 100 other great receivers and 90 % will be 4.5 or below

They measure speed because for most part it matters.

Hah. Yeah, 90% of the greatest WRs ran 4.5 or better. I guess AJ Green, Dez Bryant, Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald and all the other 4.5+ guys are just the outliers.

There's part of your 5% of your 10%. my point is You can use stats to prove any agrument. Now you can also pick 90 great receivers that ran 4.5 or better.

Like I said it's not always everything, but obviously it's a big factor or personnel peeps wouldn't drool over it. Guys you listed are great possession receivers who do everything else excellent. It's not an exact science.

Same thing when idea takes a 2* and coaches them up to NFL.

I do not think people realize how rare it is to run a sub 4.5 forty. The first thing you need to know is who is doing the timing and what method is being used. For example there is a big difference between laser vs stop watch. Laser time can be up to .2 of a second slower than stop watch times. Below are the average times in the NFL combine (by position) You will NOT find that 90% run under a 4.5 forty.
*****************************************
Average time by position[edit]
According to a five-year NFL combine report, wide receivers and cornerbacks had the fastest average times at 4.55, followed by running backs at 4.59.

Position Time
Wide receiver 4.55
Cornerback 4.55
Running back 4.59
Safety 4.62
Outside linebacker 4.74
Tight end 4.77
Fullback 4.80
Inside linebacker 4.80
Quarterback 4.87
Defensive end 4.88
Defensive tackle 5.13
Center 5.30
Offensive tackle 5.32
Offensive guard 5.36

Smartest post yet in this thread

(12-23-2017 12:38 AM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 10:40 PM)armour248 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 07:06 PM)NIUfrank Wrote:  Dumb stat. Now I'll look 100 other great receivers and 90 % will be 4.5 or below

They measure speed because for most part it matters.

Hah. Yeah, 90% of the greatest WRs ran 4.5 or better. I guess AJ Green, Dez Bryant, Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald and all the other 4.5+ guys are just the outliers.

Green and Fitzgerald ran 4.48. Bryant a 4.52. Rice 4.59. Bolden is really the only outlier at 4.7. Both carter and rice ran their 40s in a day when athletes didn't train for the 40 like they do now. The 40 isn't a perfect measure of speed. Just a general guide. And players succeed on other things like size(green, fitz)quickness(Welker), precision(largent), strength (Bolden), etc. what would rice or carter be like
If they ran 4.3?

And here I thought you knew what you were talking about. Rice never ran a 4.59, his best ever was a 4.63 and that is coming from his mouth. And to further that, it was in the day they didn't time electronic. Let's just admit it, speed is overrated compared to quickness and explosive power. You best route runners are in that 4.6 range.

(12-23-2017 09:06 AM)Bears85 Wrote:  

(12-23-2017 12:38 AM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 10:40 PM)armour248 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 07:06 PM)NIUfrank Wrote:  Dumb stat. Now I'll look 100 other great receivers and 90 % will be 4.5 or below

They measure speed because for most part it matters.

Hah. Yeah, 90% of the greatest WRs ran 4.5 or better. I guess AJ Green, Dez Bryant, Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald and all the other 4.5+ guys are just the outliers.

Green and Fitzgerald ran 4.48. Bryant a 4.52. Rice 4.59. Bolden is really the only outlier at 4.7. Both carter and rice ran their 40s in a day when athletes didn't train for the 40 like they do now. The 40 isn't a perfect measure of speed. Just a general guide. And players succeed on other things like size(green, fitz)quickness(Welker), precision(largent), strength (Bolden), etc. what would rice or carter be like
If they ran 4.3?

And here I thought you knew what you were talking about. Rice never ran a 4.59, his best ever was a 4.63 and that is coming from his mouth. And to further that, it was in the day they didn't time electronic. Let's just admit it, speed is overrated compared to quickness and explosive power. You best route runners are in that 4.6 range.

"Jerry Rice timed in 4.59 and was considered to have marginal speed for a starting NFL wide receiver by virtually everyone in the NFL. There were three or four teams -- including the Jets and the Cowboys along with the 49ers -- who rated him very highly. Other than that, I'm not sure anybody did, simply because of a 4.59 time."
-Bill Walsh

Speed isn't over rated. The 40 is. Walsh goes on to explain functional speed vs the 40 time in this article.

(12-23-2017 09:06 AM)Bears85 Wrote:  

(12-23-2017 12:38 AM)Rabid Squirrel Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 10:40 PM)armour248 Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 07:06 PM)NIUfrank Wrote:  Dumb stat. Now I'll look 100 other great receivers and 90 % will be 4.5 or below

They measure speed because for most part it matters.

Hah. Yeah, 90% of the greatest WRs ran 4.5 or better. I guess AJ Green, Dez Bryant, Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald and all the other 4.5+ guys are just the outliers.

Green and Fitzgerald ran 4.48. Bryant a 4.52. Rice 4.59. Bolden is really the only outlier at 4.7. Both carter and rice ran their 40s in a day when athletes didn't train for the 40 like they do now. The 40 isn't a perfect measure of speed. Just a general guide. And players succeed on other things like size(green, fitz)quickness(Welker), precision(largent), strength (Bolden), etc. what would rice or carter be like
If they ran 4.3?

And here I thought you knew what you were talking about. Rice never ran a 4.59, his best ever was a 4.63 and that is coming from his mouth. And to further that, it was in the day they didn't time electronic. Let's just admit it, speed is overrated compared to quickness and explosive power. You best route runners are in that 4.6 range.

Come on man seriously! Speed is overrated? How come every coach in America always talks about the biggest advantage is speed. Either side of the ball. I'll assume they know what's important.