(05-04-2017 06:48 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  GiveEmTheAxe,

No. I do know a young man who turned down a Basketball scholarship at UCSD this spring because admissions would not let him be an Engineering major. So he I think he is going to MIT instead - he is one of those 3.8, 2100 SAT kids, 3 year Varsity at Bellarmine (San Jose, WCAL) -- we hired him to coach one of our JV teams when he was a Senior, super impressive kid. Anyway, that is the sort of problems UCs in the Big West have in recruiting players. This kid is D-II level, but the same issues apply with D-I level athletes. Long Beach State doesn't have those issues, but also could never recruit that player who's "safety" was MIT.

This highlights part of the problem with the Pac12. Getting into a CA PAC-12 school is extremely difficult. 4.0 students are leaving the state to go to school in other states. The UC's, especially Berkeley and UCLA have become so elite that the have become disconnected from the general population.

I considered myself a good student in junior college. Sports editor of the school newspaper, member of the soccer team, a scholar athlete with a 3.25 GPA studying political science. I was accepted into UC Irvine, Davis and Santa Barbara. didn't come close to UCLA or Cal.

It's tough

(05-04-2017 11:26 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  This highlights part of the problem with the Pac12. Getting into a CA PAC-12 school is extremely difficult. 4.0 students are leaving the state to go to school in other states. The UC's, especially Berkeley and UCLA have become so elite that the have become disconnected from the general population.

This isn't a PAC problem. It's a huge PAC upside for the non-CA schools. We want those 4.0 CA students paying out of state tuition at our schools, and being in the PAC is the best possible advertisement. That's why the SW schools would hate to be locked out of CA in a separate eastern division. That CA presence would need to be an additional UC school, preferably in SoCal for football recruiting purposes. It wouldn't matter if they were the Vandy/Northwestern of the conference Athletics-wise..

(05-04-2017 11:21 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  

(05-04-2017 04:11 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  The real blocking point UCSD faces in the Big West is not the CSU schools but the UC schools. UCSD competes head up with Irvine, Davis, Riverside, and Santa Barbara for the exact same UC eligible D-I athletes. The Cal States have entirely different standards and so are no competing for the same athletes.

This is a point lost by most people. It's the ADs of the UCs who are blocking. The research nexus, high profile thing doesn't play because the Big West is not the organization the research is centered, rather it is the UC System including Cal, UCLA, and Santa Cruz. There is no impact on that. The Big West decision will be made strictly on athletic issues.

And yes the SDSU stadium issue is in the back of Big West minds. Between that and the UC recruiting issue, I think UCSD's chances are far better with the WAC than the Big West. Only after proving themselves the strongest D-I Basketball school among the UC's would they be admitted to the Big West. But I don't think that reality has sunk in on everyone. Blaming the likes of Fullerton, Northridge and Long beach for what was more likely the Irvine, Davis, and Santa Barbara ADs saying hey there is too much competition for those 3.8 GPA, 2100 and D-I level athletes already.

All fine and dandy - except that all nine ADs said yes to UCSD.

Goes to show how these institutions work... but, how amateur UCSD is, too. AD's talk, presidents vote.

In D1, AD is the most thankless job in higher education. Among the most powerless\(least) autonomous, too.

(05-05-2017 12:59 AM)jrj84105 Wrote:  

(05-04-2017 11:26 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  This highlights part of the problem with the Pac12. Getting into a CA PAC-12 school is extremely difficult. 4.0 students are leaving the state to go to school in other states. The UC's, especially Berkeley and UCLA have become so elite that the have become disconnected from the general population.

This isn't a PAC problem. It's a huge PAC upside for the non-CA schools. We want those 4.0 CA students paying out of state tuition at our schools, and being in the PAC is the best possible advertisement. That's why the SW schools would hate to be locked out of CA in a separate eastern division. That CA presence would need to be an additional UC school, preferably in SoCal for football recruiting purposes. It wouldn't matter if they were the Vandy/Northwestern of the conference Athletics-wise..

That's not necessarily related to conference membership. Colorado was enrolling plenty of California residents long before CU joined the Pac-12. Big Ten schools were enrolling lots of students from the Boston-Washington corridor, given how extremely difficult it is to get into one of the best Ivies or MIT, long before Maryland and Rutgers or even Penn State were in the Big Ten.

(05-04-2017 11:13 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  There is no restriction on Athletics and major at UC. The Admissions did not give him Engineering, MIT did.

The number of slots for Engineering is extremely limited at UCs. Demand is massively higher than slots. This is because so many of the high performing kids come from parents in technical fields. Like this boy, I sent mine out of State to a private school in New England for Engineering because the UC would not give him a slot. Funny thing is due to our high income we get zero discount for UC, but my son qualified on his UC general admission scores to roughly $70K in Grants and due to having a technical degree able to get two summer jobs netting him another $20K. So it's actually slightly cheaper to send him to a private school in New England than to a UC, and he can get any major he wants.

I don't think people outside California know how ridiculous the standards are to get into Engineering at a UC. My son also got into two honors Engineering schools in for Big Ten schools, one offering such a deep discount on the grants that his tuition would have only been $7K a year, about the same as any CSU. But he could not get any UC Engineering.

The UCSD Dean was not joking when he said the athletes in their program were like having Ivy League students.

It's ridiculous how small and inadequate the UC system is. Proportional to its size, the 10-campus UC system has one of the smallest enrollments of any state flagships in the nation.

It ticks me off to hear people talk about how the UC system is a "model" that others should copy. The system is a poster child for a poor use of taxpayer money. CA educates fewer of its citizens than any other state despite providing the 9th highest per-capita subsidy of any state towards higher education.

(05-05-2017 12:41 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(05-04-2017 11:13 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  There is no restriction on Athletics and major at UC. The Admissions did not give him Engineering, MIT did.

The number of slots for Engineering is extremely limited at UCs. Demand is massively higher than slots. This is because so many of the high performing kids come from parents in technical fields. Like this boy, I sent mine out of State to a private school in New England for Engineering because the UC would not give him a slot. Funny thing is due to our high income we get zero discount for UC, but my son qualified on his UC general admission scores to roughly $70K in Grants and due to having a technical degree able to get two summer jobs netting him another $20K. So it's actually slightly cheaper to send him to a private school in New England than to a UC, and he can get any major he wants.

I don't think people outside California know how ridiculous the standards are to get into Engineering at a UC. My son also got into two honors Engineering schools in for Big Ten schools, one offering such a deep discount on the grants that his tuition would have only been $7K a year, about the same as any CSU. But he could not get any UC Engineering.

The UCSD Dean was not joking when he said the athletes in their program were like having Ivy League students.

It's ridiculous how small and inadequate the UC system is. Proportional to its size, the 10-campus UC system has one of the smallest enrollments of any state flagships in the nation.

It ticks me off to hear people talk about how the UC system is a "model" that others should copy. The system is a poster child for a poor use of taxpayer money. CA educates fewer of its citizens than any other state despite providing the 9th highest per-capita subsidy of any state towards higher education.

Ugh, if it's "model," then are people suggesting multiple state systems? UC is what you want people to see, but CSU is more the reality. And that isn't a dig on the CSU system...CSU is just more comprehensive and looks more like what other states have.

But, you're right. UC is...not as it should be.

So what's the solution for getting the UC system to serve more Californians? Should enrollment increase at the existing campuses or should more campuses be established? Both?

Here are the campuses ranked by enrollment:

UCLA 42,239
UC Berkeley 37,581
UC Davis 35,415
UC San Diego 31,502
UC Irvine 30,757
UC Santa Barbara 23,051
UC Riverside 21,680
UC Santa Cruz 17,866
UC Merced 6,268

What's keeping enrollment low at the campuses below 30k? Are those the schools CA kids are shunning in favor of heading out of state to Boulder, Eugene and Tempe? Or are they choosing the CSU system instead?

Here are the distances to the nearest CSUs (and their enrollment):

UC Santa Barbara --> CSU Channel Islands, 58 miles (6,611 students)
UC Santa Barbara --> Cal Poly SLO, 99 miles (21,306 students)
UC Riverside --> Cal State San Bernardino, 18 miles (20,767 students)
UC Riverside --> Cal Poly Pomona, 31 miles (25,326 students)
UC Riverside --> Cal State Fullerton, 39 miles (40,235 students)
UC Santa Cruz --> CSU Monterey Bay, 38 miles (7,274 students)
UC Santa Cruz --> San José State, 34 miles (32,154 students)
UC Merced --> Stanislaus State, 30 miles (9,762 students)
UC Merced --> Fresno State, 64 miles (24,405 students)

Here's what jumps out at me after a cursory glance.

Maybe lots of kids are choosing Cal State Fullerton over UC Riverside. And why the hell did the UC think it was a good idea to build the new campus in Merced? I know the politics of the time called for adding a UC campus to the Central Valley but if it had been up to me I think I would have turned Cal Poly Pomona into UC Pomona and started a new CSU somewhere like Irwindale, Ontario or Chino Hills.

(05-05-2017 03:13 PM)GiveEmTheAxe Wrote:  So what's the solution for getting the UC system to serve more Californians? Should enrollment increase at the existing campuses or should more campuses be established? Both?

Here are the campuses ranked by enrollment:

UCLA 42,239
UC Berkeley 37,581
UC Davis 35,415
UC San Diego 31,502
UC Irvine 30,757
UC Santa Barbara 23,051
UC Riverside 21,680
UC Santa Cruz 17,866
UC Merced 6,268

What's keeping enrollment low at the campuses below 30k? Are those the schools CA kids are shunning in favor of heading out of state to Boulder, Eugene and Tempe? Or are they choosing the CSU system instead?

Here are the distances to the nearest CSUs (and their enrollment):

UC Santa Barbara --> CSU Channel Islands, 58 miles (6,611 students)
UC Santa Barbara --> Cal Poly SLO, 99 miles (21,306 students)
UC Riverside --> Cal State San Bernardino, 18 miles (20,767 students)
UC Riverside --> Cal Poly Pomona, 31 miles (25,326 students)
UC Riverside --> Cal State Fullerton, 39 miles (40,235 students)
UC Santa Cruz --> CSU Monterey Bay, 38 miles (7,274 students)
UC Santa Cruz --> San José State, 34 miles (32,154 students)
UC Merced --> Stanislaus State, 30 miles (9,762 students)
UC Merced --> Fresno State, 64 miles (24,405 students)

Here's what jumps out at me after a cursory glance.

Maybe lots of kids are choosing Cal State Fullerton over UC Riverside. And why the hell did the UC think it was a good idea to build the new campus in Merced? I know the politics of the time called for adding a UC campus to the Central Valley but if it had been up to me I think I would have turned Cal Poly Pomona into UC Pomona and started a new CSU somewhere like Irwindale, Ontario or Chino Hills.

Well California does have 200,000 students on 6 campuses that are in the top 100 schools in the world. And Riverside and Santa Cruz are not that far below. There are only 25 US public schools in the top 100 in the world and no other state has more than 2 (Texas and Pennsylvania are the only ones with 2).

(05-05-2017 05:32 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-05-2017 03:13 PM)GiveEmTheAxe Wrote:  So what's the solution for getting the UC system to serve more Californians? Should enrollment increase at the existing campuses or should more campuses be established? Both?

Here are the campuses ranked by enrollment:

UCLA 42,239
UC Berkeley 37,581
UC Davis 35,415
UC San Diego 31,502
UC Irvine 30,757
UC Santa Barbara 23,051
UC Riverside 21,680
UC Santa Cruz 17,866
UC Merced 6,268

What's keeping enrollment low at the campuses below 30k? Are those the schools CA kids are shunning in favor of heading out of state to Boulder, Eugene and Tempe? Or are they choosing the CSU system instead?

Here are the distances to the nearest CSUs (and their enrollment):

UC Santa Barbara --> CSU Channel Islands, 58 miles (6,611 students)
UC Santa Barbara --> Cal Poly SLO, 99 miles (21,306 students)
UC Riverside --> Cal State San Bernardino, 18 miles (20,767 students)
UC Riverside --> Cal Poly Pomona, 31 miles (25,326 students)
UC Riverside --> Cal State Fullerton, 39 miles (40,235 students)
UC Santa Cruz --> CSU Monterey Bay, 38 miles (7,274 students)
UC Santa Cruz --> San José State, 34 miles (32,154 students)
UC Merced --> Stanislaus State, 30 miles (9,762 students)
UC Merced --> Fresno State, 64 miles (24,405 students)

Here's what jumps out at me after a cursory glance.

Maybe lots of kids are choosing Cal State Fullerton over UC Riverside. And why the hell did the UC think it was a good idea to build the new campus in Merced? I know the politics of the time called for adding a UC campus to the Central Valley but if it had been up to me I think I would have turned Cal Poly Pomona into UC Pomona and started a new CSU somewhere like Irwindale, Ontario or Chino Hills.

Well California does have 200,000 students on 6 campuses that are in the top 100 schools in the world. And Riverside and Santa Cruz are not that far below. There are only 25 US public schools in the top 100 in the world and no other state has more than 2 (Texas and Pennsylvania are the only ones with 2).

Technically, PA's got none. PSU and Pitt are state-related; neither fully public or private.

I really hope the state gives the boot to all four of the commonwealth schools, Penn State most of all or just at least them. The actual PA public schools are flailing as a system, and big blue is a part of that.

(05-05-2017 03:13 PM)GiveEmTheAxe Wrote:  So what's the solution for getting the UC system to serve more Californians? Should enrollment increase at the existing campuses or should more campuses be established? Both?

Here are the campuses ranked by enrollment:

UCLA 42,239
UC Berkeley 37,581
UC Davis 35,415
UC San Diego 31,502
UC Irvine 30,757
UC Santa Barbara 23,051
UC Riverside 21,680
UC Santa Cruz 17,866
UC Merced 6,268

What's keeping enrollment low at the campuses below 30k? Are those the schools CA kids are shunning in favor of heading out of state to Boulder, Eugene and Tempe? Or are they choosing the CSU system instead?

Here are the distances to the nearest CSUs (and their enrollment):

UC Santa Barbara --> CSU Channel Islands, 58 miles (6,611 students)
UC Santa Barbara --> Cal Poly SLO, 99 miles (21,306 students)
UC Riverside --> Cal State San Bernardino, 18 miles (20,767 students)
UC Riverside --> Cal Poly Pomona, 31 miles (25,326 students)
UC Riverside --> Cal State Fullerton, 39 miles (40,235 students)
UC Santa Cruz --> CSU Monterey Bay, 38 miles (7,274 students)
UC Santa Cruz --> San José State, 34 miles (32,154 students)
UC Merced --> Stanislaus State, 30 miles (9,762 students)
UC Merced --> Fresno State, 64 miles (24,405 students)

Here's what jumps out at me after a cursory glance.

Maybe lots of kids are choosing Cal State Fullerton over UC Riverside. And why the hell did the UC think it was a good idea to build the new campus in Merced? I know the politics of the time called for adding a UC campus to the Central Valley but if it had been up to me I think I would have turned Cal Poly Pomona into UC Pomona and started a new CSU somewhere like Irwindale, Ontario or Chino Hills.

Students aren't "choosing" other schools; the UC system is limiting enrollment.

(05-05-2017 05:32 PM)bullet Wrote:  Well California does have 200,000 students on 6 campuses that are in the top 100 schools in the world. And Riverside and Santa Cruz are not that far below. There are only 25 US public schools in the top 100 in the world and no other state has more than 2 (Texas and Pennsylvania are the only ones with 2).

So as a portion of their population, fewer Californians are educated at those 6 campuses than any other state with a school on the top-25 list except Texas (which also has an inadequate system) and Virginia (because William & Mary is a tiny school and UVA is not on that list of top-25 publics for some reason).

(05-05-2017 06:25 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(05-05-2017 05:32 PM)bullet Wrote:  Well California does have 200,000 students on 6 campuses that are in the top 100 schools in the world. And Riverside and Santa Cruz are not that far below. There are only 25 US public schools in the top 100 in the world and no other state has more than 2 (Texas and Pennsylvania are the only ones with 2).

So as a portion of their population, fewer Californians are educated at those 6 campuses than any other state with a school on the top-25 list except Texas (which also has an inadequate system) and Virginia (because William & Mary is a tiny school and UVA is not on that list of top-25 publics for some reason).

Where are you getting your figures? Because they seem to be demonstrably false. Even going by the limitation of only counting schools in the top 25 of public universities let's compare CA and FL.

CA's 6 top-25 campuses have a combined 200,545 students. CA's population is 39.14 million. That's 0.00512 spots per CA resident.

FL's lone top-25 campus has 52,519 students. FL's population is 20.27 million. That's 0.00259 spots per FL resident.

What about Illinois?
IL's lone top-25 campus has 44,087 students. IL's population is 12.86 million. That's 0.00343 spots per IL resident.

What about New York? There are no top-25 public schools there at all to serve its 19.8 million people.

And if we relax the top-25 requirement why should CA limit itself to the students in the UC system? Should it not get credit for the 478,000 in the CSU system or the 2.4 million students in the CA community colleges system?

Seriously, where are you getting your numbers?

(05-05-2017 03:13 PM)GiveEmTheAxe Wrote:  So what's the solution for getting the UC system to serve more Californians?

That's not a problem, so it doesn't need a solution.

The UC system best serves California by bringing the best global talent it can into the state, and by creating an environment where top researchers and innovators can create, discover, and develop novel, disruptive new technologies and knowledge.


The CSU system is for "serving Californians".

(05-05-2017 12:41 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(05-04-2017 11:13 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  There is no restriction on Athletics and major at UC. The Admissions did not give him Engineering, MIT did.

The number of slots for Engineering is extremely limited at UCs. Demand is massively higher than slots. This is because so many of the high performing kids come from parents in technical fields. Like this boy, I sent mine out of State to a private school in New England for Engineering because the UC would not give him a slot. Funny thing is due to our high income we get zero discount for UC, but my son qualified on his UC general admission scores to roughly $70K in Grants and due to having a technical degree able to get two summer jobs netting him another $20K. So it's actually slightly cheaper to send him to a private school in New England than to a UC, and he can get any major he wants.

I don't think people outside California know how ridiculous the standards are to get into Engineering at a UC. My son also got into two honors Engineering schools in for Big Ten schools, one offering such a deep discount on the grants that his tuition would have only been $7K a year, about the same as any CSU. But he could not get any UC Engineering.

The UCSD Dean was not joking when he said the athletes in their program were like having Ivy League students.

It's ridiculous how small and inadequate the UC system is. Proportional to its size, the 10-campus UC system has one of the smallest enrollments of any state flagships in the nation.

It ticks me off to hear people talk about how the UC system is a "model" that others should copy. The system is a poster child for a poor use of taxpayer money. CA educates fewer of its citizens than any other state despite providing the 9th highest per-capita subsidy of any state towards higher education.

Because the UC doesn't feel its job is to educate the general population. Except for the elite students (many foreign and out of state) who the allow in, they focus on graduate studies and leave it to the Cal States to teach everyone else. The problem is if you a very good but not great student and you want a P5 major college experience you have to go out of state.

That Ivy League like enrollment policy is why CA is a huge opportunity for the Big 12 if they would just open their eyes and grab it. Just like the Big East became popular in Ivy League territory the Big 12 could make in roads into CA.

That settles it then Sactown, UCSD is Big 12 bound :D

(05-05-2017 07:10 PM)GiveEmTheAxe Wrote:  

(05-05-2017 06:25 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(05-05-2017 05:32 PM)bullet Wrote:  Well California does have 200,000 students on 6 campuses that are in the top 100 schools in the world. And Riverside and Santa Cruz are not that far below. There are only 25 US public schools in the top 100 in the world and no other state has more than 2 (Texas and Pennsylvania are the only ones with 2).

So as a portion of their population, fewer Californians are educated at those 6 campuses than any other state with a school on the top-25 list except Texas (which also has an inadequate system) and Virginia (because William & Mary is a tiny school and UVA is not on that list of top-25 publics for some reason).

Where are you getting your figures? Because they seem to be demonstrably false. Even going by the limitation of only counting schools in the top 25 of public universities let's compare CA and FL.

CA's 6 top-25 campuses have a combined 200,545 students. CA's population is 39.14 million. That's 0.00512 spots per CA resident.

FL's lone top-25 campus has 52,519 students. FL's population is 20.27 million. That's 0.00259 spots per FL resident.

What about Illinois?
IL's lone top-25 campus has 44,087 students. IL's population is 12.86 million. That's 0.00343 spots per IL resident.

What about New York? There are no top-25 public schools there at all to serve its 19.8 million people.

And if we relax the top-25 requirement why should CA limit itself to the students in the UC system? Should it not get credit for the 478,000 in the CSU system or the 2.4 million students in the CA community colleges system?

Seriously, where are you getting your numbers?

The issue is in most other states, students have an option if you want to attend a college with a P5 team. CA does not. It's not like in the 1980's when a very good student could go to UCLA. Now those students have a low chance of getting in. The 4 CA PAC-12 schools are among the top hardest schools in America to matriculate to. That includes the Ivy leagues.

In my moms and my generation almost all either attended or were accepted by a CA PAC-12 school. In my kids generation, only 1 will attend a PAC-12 school. It's a situation that is noticed and seen by declining interest in PAC-12 sports.

(05-06-2017 12:40 AM)jdgaucho Wrote:  That settles it then Sactown, UCSD is Big 12 bound :D

Haha. Yep I'm sure that is who Texas wants. Lol

(05-05-2017 03:13 PM)GiveEmTheAxe Wrote:  So what's the solution for getting the UC system to serve more Californians? Should enrollment increase at the existing campuses or should more campuses be established? Both?

Here are the campuses ranked by enrollment:

UCLA 42,239
UC Berkeley 37,581
UC Davis 35,415
UC San Diego 31,502
UC Irvine 30,757
UC Santa Barbara 23,051
UC Riverside 21,680
UC Santa Cruz 17,866
UC Merced 6,268

What's keeping enrollment low at the campuses below 30k? Are those the schools CA kids are shunning in favor of heading out of state to Boulder, Eugene and Tempe? Or are they choosing the CSU system instead?

Here are the distances to the nearest CSUs (and their enrollment):

UC Santa Barbara --> CSU Channel Islands, 58 miles (6,611 students)
UC Santa Barbara --> Cal Poly SLO, 99 miles (21,306 students)
UC Riverside --> Cal State San Bernardino, 18 miles (20,767 students)
UC Riverside --> Cal Poly Pomona, 31 miles (25,326 students)
UC Riverside --> Cal State Fullerton, 39 miles (40,235 students)
UC Santa Cruz --> CSU Monterey Bay, 38 miles (7,274 students)
UC Santa Cruz --> San José State, 34 miles (32,154 students)
UC Merced --> Stanislaus State, 30 miles (9,762 students)
UC Merced --> Fresno State, 64 miles (24,405 students)

Here's what jumps out at me after a cursory glance.

Maybe lots of kids are choosing Cal State Fullerton over UC Riverside. And why the hell did the UC think it was a good idea to build the new campus in Merced? I know the politics of the time called for adding a UC campus to the Central Valley but if it had been up to me I think I would have turned Cal Poly Pomona into UC Pomona and started a new CSU somewhere like Irwindale, Ontario or Chino Hills.

Because IP generation is critical to economic development especially in CA which is not a low cost state. The Central Valley is on of the poorer areas in the country because the IP generating Universities all sit in the coastal region.

If the Pac-12 has become inaccessible and if people think we're all a bunch of out of touch eggheads maybe it's time to embrace the state's diversity and add a school from the ignored central valley. Time to add UC Davis!