(02-11-2017 01:45 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  Health care being a "right".....

Health care requires intelligent people who choose to become doctors. It requires they ace their schooling, get accepted into medical school, pay out of the ass for it, work their asses off to graduate, then residency. Without these people, there is no health care.

So health care cannot possibly be a right since the entire concept relies on OTHER PEOPLE stepping up to the plate and being successful.

You have no inherent right to health care. No one has inherent rights to services provided by other people.

In our nation, it requires intelligent people. We could make it a 2-year associates program and let anyone do it. 99% of their daily work doesn't require much intelligence and since they have to use board and govt approved processes and procedures, it is really just following a flow chart. That would balloon supply and cut costs a bit. At least at the basic level. Get rid of liability and you could have basic care available ay 7-Eleven for the cost of a pack of cigarettes.

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(02-11-2017 12:55 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 12:51 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  The Sioux tribe gave health care for all in their tribe who are ill. They also extend it to their friends and allies as well. They consider each other as family. It is sad that greed comes first before healing others to save their lives.

That is fine...but...fck anyone that is not a friend or ally? Im not sure they get a total high five for their altruism.

If you are white and are a victim of their enemy of the Crow and been injured by the Crow? They would take you in, cure you and make you a member of their tribe. Nobody is homeless, go hungry and be cure by their medicine men.

(02-11-2017 07:56 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  They would take you in, cure you and make you a member of their tribe.

OH SO THEY'D PUSH THEIR CULTURE AND VIEWS ON ME?!??!?!?!

T R I G G E R E D
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Why aren't food shelter and clothing not considered a right?

(02-11-2017 03:44 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 01:45 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  Health care being a "right".....

Health care requires intelligent people who choose to become doctors. It requires they ace their schooling, get accepted into medical school, pay out of the ass for it, work their asses off to graduate, then residency. Without these people, there is no health care.

So health care cannot possibly be a right since the entire concept relies on OTHER PEOPLE stepping up to the plate and being successful.

You have no inherent right to health care. No one has inherent rights to services provided by other people.

Fair.

Just as you do not have the right to have a nice paved road between you and where ever you work. You also do not have the right to have a lateral sewer line connected to a main to transport all the waste and bodily functions you and your family have to a wastewater treatment plant (side bar, HOOD- is it in the constitution?). Nevertheless, here I am constructing and inspecting sewer lines to get your waste from point A to point B.

You don't have the right to clean, drinkable water. Yet here I am, going from water treatment plant to water treatment plant insuring that all the influent is properly treated and sanitized before it enters your tap. One of the greatest achievements of the 20th century was the drastic reduction of these deadly diseases thanks to water and wastewater treatment plants, of which, most of you pay for through taxes.

I consider myself an intelligent person (although I'd admit I still have a lot to learn), but I stepped up to the plate. I have a Master's Degree in Civil Engineering. Yet here I am, walking through sewer mains at 4 AM, inspecting mains and coming up with ideas to fix them. It's not a glorious job. I don't have a six figure salary. It stinks, it's cold down there, and it's most definitely a job that requires a shower after you're done with work, rather than a job that requires a shower before work. I'm not complaining, I love what I do, but it is what it is.

Prior to the 20th century, Cholera, Typhoid, and Yellow Fever killed millions. Now, we all pay taxes to build water treatment plants to insure that these bacterium do not enter your home. Life expectancy soared after these engineering processes were put into place.

The next logical step in public health, IMO, is universal healthcare for all Americans. I admit that the government can be very inefficient when it comes to providing services. It can be improved. Yet these services are imperative to modern society. We can do better, and I believe that the next step in the advancement of our society as a whole must include guaranteed healthcare for all.

Full disclaimer: I'm not comparing myself to a doctor. I understand that doctors have gone through years of training at their expense to do what they do, and I appreciate it fully. I also believe doctors should be justly compensated for the service they provide, considering the years of education and training they undergo.

TL:DR- I believe healthcare isn't a right, but we as a society should provide it to all.

Irrelevant to the discussion. If they are built by the states and countries then they are Constitutional since the Federal government is not meddling with a power it doesn't have.

You sure do when it comes to the Constitution and politics.

That is a good degree. My mother is a Civil Engineer. The best kind of one.

(02-11-2017 03:44 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 01:45 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  Health care being a "right".....

Health care requires intelligent people who choose to become doctors. It requires they ace their schooling, get accepted into medical school, pay out of the ass for it, work their asses off to graduate, then residency. Without these people, there is no health care.

So health care cannot possibly be a right since the entire concept relies on OTHER PEOPLE stepping up to the plate and being successful.

You have no inherent right to health care. No one has inherent rights to services provided by other people.

Fair.

Just as you do not have the right to have a nice paved road between you and where ever you work. You also do not have the right to have a lateral sewer line connected to a main to transport all the waste and bodily functions you and your family have to a wastewater treatment plant (side bar, HOOD- is it in the constitution?). Nevertheless, here I am constructing and inspecting sewer lines to get your waste from point A to point B.

You don't have the right to clean, drinkable water. Yet here I am, going from water treatment plant to water treatment plant insuring that all the influent is properly treated and sanitized before it enters your tap. One of the greatest achievements of the 20th century was the drastic reduction of these deadly diseases thanks to water and wastewater treatment plants, of which, most of you pay for through taxes.

I consider myself an intelligent person (although I'd admit I still have a lot to learn), but I stepped up to the plate. I have a Master's Degree in Civil Engineering. Yet here I am, walking through sewer mains at 4 AM, inspecting mains and coming up with ideas to fix them. It's not a glorious job. I don't have a six figure salary. It stinks, it's cold down there, and it's most definitely a job that requires a shower after you're done with work, rather than a job that requires a shower before work. I'm not complaining, I love what I do, but it is what it is.

Prior to the 20th century, Cholera, Typhoid, and Yellow Fever killed millions. Now, we all pay taxes to build water treatment plants to insure that these bacterium do not enter your home. Life expectancy soared after these engineering processes were put into place.

The next logical step in public health, IMO, is universal healthcare for all Americans. I admit that the government can be very inefficient when it comes to providing services. It can be improved. Yet these services are imperative to modern society. We can do better, and I believe that the next step in the advancement of our society as a whole must include guaranteed healthcare for all.

Full disclaimer: I'm not comparing myself to a doctor. I understand that doctors have gone through years of training at their expense to do what they do, and I appreciate it fully. I also believe doctors should be justly compensated for the service they provide, considering the years of education and training they undergo.

TL:DR- I believe healthcare isn't a right, but we as a society should provide it to all.

I have maintained long ago that if we as a people want our government to provide ANY service to us using the confiscation of the fruits of our labor...including health care? That is fine with me. Just don't bring another gun into the room and expect me to pay additionally for the health care of others. Go into the budget and cut out things that are not as high of a priority to pay for it. Go find the money and do it.

(02-11-2017 01:45 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  Health care being a "right".....

Health care requires intelligent people who choose to become doctors. It requires they ace their schooling, get accepted into medical school, pay out of the ass for it, work their asses off to graduate, then residency. Without these people, there is no health care.

So health care cannot possibly be a right since the entire concept relies on OTHER PEOPLE stepping up to the plate and being successful.

You have no inherent right to health care. No one has inherent rights to services provided by other people.

Honestly this is one of the best arguments I've heard as to why it is not a right.

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Asking whether health care is a right is the wrong question - it becomes a moral debate. Is universal (or something near it) health care a good idea? I think so - the advantages are pretty easy to list. We, as individuals and as a society, benefit when more people are more healthy, more often. Of course, as fo mentions, the trouble is in how you plan to pay for it.

Ok, well with that in mind, who should make said "payment?"

Paying for ines own way, all debts personal and public, is. a larger moral issue.

Is everyone entitled to t 3590 square foot home whether you can make the payment or qualify for the loan?

Do you have a savings account? Do you have any net worth? Most Americans do not.

Do you spend more that you earn?

Morals... yes let's talk about Morals!!

(02-11-2017 10:18 AM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  Asking whether health care is a right is the wrong question - it becomes a moral debate. Is universal (or something near it) health care a good idea? I think so - the advantages are pretty easy to list. We, as individuals and as a society, benefit when more people are more healthy, more often. Of course, as fo mentions, the trouble is in how you plan to pay for it.

I concur. If we just used priorities to decide where we spend our money it would help.

(02-11-2017 12:51 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  The Sioux tribe gave health care for all in their tribe who are ill. They also extend it to their friends and allies as well. They consider each other as family. It is sad that greed comes first before healing others to save their lives.

That's understandable considering the fact that salves made from ground buffalo horn and cottonwood sap are considerably cheaper than modern medication.

Perhaps you could join the Sioux Nation. Tell them you were named Walking Crow because you were too full of crap to fly.

(02-11-2017 09:55 AM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 03:44 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  I consider myself an intelligent person (although I'd admit I still have a lot to learn), but I stepped up to the plate. I have a Master's Degree in Civil Engineering.

Irrelevant to the discussion. If they are built by the states and countries then they are Constitutional since the Federal government is not meddling with a power it doesn't have.

You sure do when it comes to the Constitution and politics.

That is a good degree. My mother is a Civil Engineer. The best kind of one.

Yeah, but he's an OU grad so it's about as valuable as the paper the degree is printed on.

(02-11-2017 10:47 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 10:18 AM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  Asking whether health care is a right is the wrong question - it becomes a moral debate. Is universal (or something near it) health care a good idea? I think so - the advantages are pretty easy to list. We, as individuals and as a society, benefit when more people are more healthy, more often. Of course, as fo mentions, the trouble is in how you plan to pay for it.

I concur. If we just used priorities to decide where we spend our money it would help.

We seem to spend billions of dollars for health care for people of Africa and other countries, but refuse to help the less fortunate in this country even if they do pay taxes. Stop sending money to those countries, and work on getting our people healthy so that they can go back to work. People who are ill can't work, and won;t be able to contribute to this country.

(02-11-2017 11:37 AM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 09:55 AM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 03:44 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  I consider myself an intelligent person (although I'd admit I still have a lot to learn), but I stepped up to the plate. I have a Master's Degree in Civil Engineering.

Irrelevant to the discussion. If they are built by the states and countries then they are Constitutional since the Federal government is not meddling with a power it doesn't have.

You sure do when it comes to the Constitution and politics.

That is a good degree. My mother is a Civil Engineer. The best kind of one.

Yeah, but he's an OU grad so it's about as valuable as the paper the degree is printed on.

Oxford over Athens!

(02-11-2017 11:11 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 12:51 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  The Sioux tribe gave health care for all in their tribe who are ill. They also extend it to their friends and allies as well. They consider each other as family. It is sad that greed comes first before healing others to save their lives.

That's understandable considering the fact that salves made from ground buffalo horn and cottonwood sap are considerably cheaper than modern medication.

Perhaps you could join the Sioux Nation. Tell them you were named Walking Crow because you were too full of crap to fly.

They have their urgent care centers in the back of their casinos.

(02-10-2017 10:15 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:08 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Should all citizens pay taxes? Answer that then we can talk about this other bull-crap.

Yes, We all should be paying a national sales tax on goods. Not a income tax. Which is the most Un-American Tax ever created.

Yay more taxes!! - said every liberal/progressive ever

(02-11-2017 12:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 10:47 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 10:18 AM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  Asking whether health care is a right is the wrong question - it becomes a moral debate. Is universal (or something near it) health care a good idea? I think so - the advantages are pretty easy to list. We, as individuals and as a society, benefit when more people are more healthy, more often. Of course, as fo mentions, the trouble is in how you plan to pay for it.

I concur. If we just used priorities to decide where we spend our money it would help.

We seem to spend billions of dollars for health care for people of Africa and other countries, but refuse to help the less fortunate in this country even if they do pay taxes. Stop sending money to those countries, and work on getting our people healthy so that they can go back to work. People who are ill can't work, and won;t be able to contribute to this country.

I honestly believe we can do both if that is our will. Just pay for it. Cut the BS that has a poor ROI to the taxpayers. It is OUR money...right?

(02-11-2017 01:17 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 12:51 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 12:41 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:48 PM)chess Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:15 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  Yes, We all should be paying a national sales tax on goods. Not a income tax. Which is the most Un-American Tax ever created.

Income tax is not the most un-American tax.

Property tax is the most un-American tax. In Illinois, it is not uncommon for a person to pay $6-25,000/year for the right to live in a property they own. If you do not pay the tax, your property can be confiscated.

so dont live there.

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Where is he supposed to reside that is exempt?....a funeral plot?

ffs, plenty of places have lower taxes than Illinois. Its the 10th worst state for taxes.

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-hi...den/20494/

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You planning on paying for him to move? Or for me to move since I want out of CT?

I didn't think so.

(02-11-2017 02:20 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 01:17 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 12:51 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 12:41 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:48 PM)chess Wrote:  Income tax is not the most un-American tax.

Property tax is the most un-American tax. In Illinois, it is not uncommon for a person to pay $6-25,000/year for the right to live in a property they own. If you do not pay the tax, your property can be confiscated.

so dont live there.

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

Where is he supposed to reside that is exempt?....a funeral plot?

ffs, plenty of places have lower taxes than Illinois. Its the 10th worst state for taxes.

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-hi...den/20494/

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

You planning on paying for him to move? Or for me to move since I want out of CT?

I didn't think so.

Yall stay up there. My taxes are low and the weather is warm..but..otherwise it sucks here in the sticks.

(02-11-2017 05:25 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 04:59 AM)DexterDevil Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 03:44 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 01:45 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  Health care being a "right".....

Health care requires intelligent people who choose to become doctors. It requires they ace their schooling, get accepted into medical school, pay out of the ass for it, work their asses off to graduate, then residency. Without these people, there is no health care.

So health care cannot possibly be a right since the entire concept relies on OTHER PEOPLE stepping up to the plate and being successful.

You have no inherent right to health care. No one has inherent rights to services provided by other people.

Fair.

Just as you do not have the right to have a nice paved road between you and where ever you work. You also do not have the right to have a lateral sewer line connected to a main to transport all the waste and bodily functions you and your family have to a wastewater treatment plant (side bar, HOOD- is it in the constitution?). Nevertheless, here I am constructing and inspecting sewer lines to get your waste from point A to point B.

You don't have the right to clean, drinkable water. Yet here I am, going from water treatment plant to water treatment plant insuring that all the influent is properly treated and sanitized before it enters your tap. One of the greatest achievements of the 20th century was the drastic reduction of these deadly diseases thanks to water and wastewater treatment plants, of which, most of you pay for through taxes.

I much prefer a dirt road that I can patch myself with dirt and rock, I also only need a well with a pump and my poop can either go into the septic tank to be pumped out later or out into the farm/woods, pee around the sides of the lean-to's, coops, and the barn. Ain't my fault everyone decides to become pack rats within a small area that requires paved roads, sewer systems, and humongous water treatment facilities or moves to an area that isn't particularly built to sustain life. Beauty of hard water is that you can purify and filter it yourself.

We had a 300 ft well growing up for our water and a septic tank for our unmentionables. Now I live in an urban area. Dirt roads and septic tanks are fine for people living in the country, but let's be real.

80% of Americans now live in structured municipalities. Water treatment and wastewater treatment are key to maintaining public health. Check out cities in India if you'd like to see the alternative.

As to the topic of this thread... No, healthcare isn't a right. But we're the wealthiest nation in the history of mankind. We've gone so far to provide safe drinking water for most Americans (the situation in Flint is a national embarrassment). We should go further and provide universal healthcare for all Americans.

A healthier society is a more productive society, no?

So healthcare isn't a right, but you're demanding we make it one?