(02-10-2017 06:53 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  No. You never have a right to another person's labor.

BOOM!!

No..no...no

(02-10-2017 08:08 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  You do not have a right to the services of others.

That's different than saying should we as a society supply it, which I think we should.

I agree..but..I would like to once in a while get a kiss before Im fcked by those that Im forced to service.

(02-10-2017 07:50 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 07:31 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  Okay. Perhaps it's not a god given right.

But as the wealthiest nation in the history of mankind, I personally believe affordable healthcare should be available to all Americans. Some people just have the dumb luck to be born with some genetic problems that are very expensive to treat. I have never shared this in the Spin Room, but my older brother was racked with medical conditions all throughout his life. This culminated in him requiring a heart transplant in his early 30's. At that point in his life, he was working at a small company that manufactured conveyor belts and that did not provide health insurance for their employees. He had tons of preexisting conditions that prevented him from affordable healthcare.

As many of you folks can guess, heart transplants are not cheap.

So if someone is born with a condition of which they had no choosing, why are they denied the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? The fact that we can afford to spend trillions on fighting wars in the Middle East, yet we can't afford to provide life saving medical treatments to our own is an issue I feel very passionately about.

We can not afford to give billions to your pals in the Middle East (even though they hate us and want to kill us) and pay for health care for our people. Which do you prefer? Stop foreign aid and let all the world fend for themselves or give out free health care?

I'm all for healthcare for Americans if we cut off 100% of foreign aid. it's ridiculous thw amount of money we spend trying to fix other nations problems.

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

Should all citizens pay taxes? Answer that then we can talk about this other bull-crap.

I like to start off by saying that I don't have the answer. But I do see a problem. Having health insurance as a company benefit could actually be hurting America instead of helping. If we had a different type of healthcare system. Then maybe more people would be able to take risk and start their own companies. Now I'm not saying that they shouldn't be paying into the system. Just that under a different system it might create more mobility. Also the very poor could have their share taken out of their income tax to reduce the monthly burden.

(02-10-2017 10:08 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Should all citizens pay taxes? Answer that then we can talk about this other bull-crap.

Yes, We all should be paying a national sales tax on goods. Not a income tax. Which is the most Un-American Tax ever created.

(02-10-2017 10:15 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:08 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Should all citizens pay taxes? Answer that then we can talk about this other bull-crap.

Yes, We all should be paying a national sales tax on goods. Not a income tax. Which is the most Un-American Tax ever created.

(02-10-2017 09:06 PM)DexterDevil Wrote:  My take on it, access to healthcare should be a right, the healthcare itself is a service and should be treated as such. That said, something has to be done about the price gouging.

With very few exceptions there isn't any price gouging. That $10 ibuprofen you take in the hospital is priced as such because we have too many that either can't, or in most cases don't pay for the similar pill on an earlier visit.

(02-10-2017 06:26 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  Is it in the Constitution?

No, it is not.

End of story.

This is not a correct argument. We have rights that are not in the constitution. For example, you don't have the right to murder me.

To get to the heart of the issues, may I suggest looking up negative rights and positive rights. Healthcare would be classified as a positive right. While something like healthcare could be part of a constitution or contract, it seems to be a violation of negative rights.

This is not a perfect argument. No one wishes to see others suffer. If a person is an unlucky person to get a sickness that requires expensive treatment, our current solution is to treat the person, bill the insurance, have the insurance cap out, bill the patient, and have the patient file bankruptcy after exhausting all of their assets. That seems to be a challenge. It seems to be a challenge where we can find a better solution.

(02-10-2017 10:15 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:08 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Should all citizens pay taxes? Answer that then we can talk about this other bull-crap.

Yes, We all should be paying a national sales tax on goods. Not a income tax. Which is the most Un-American Tax ever created.

Income tax is not the most un-American tax.

Property tax is the most un-American tax. In Illinois, it is not uncommon for a person to pay $6-25,000/year for the right to live in a property they own. If you do not pay the tax, your property can be confiscated.

(02-10-2017 10:42 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 09:06 PM)DexterDevil Wrote:  My take on it, access to healthcare should be a right, the healthcare itself is a service and should be treated as such. That said, something has to be done about the price gouging.

With very few exceptions there isn't any price gouging. That $10 ibuprofen you take in the hospital is priced as such because we have too many that either can't, or in most cases don't pay for the similar pill on an earlier visit.

Take away liability and regulations. That is what the $10 asprin is paying for. A doctor has to pay 5 people just to handle the paperwork. Hospitals have about 100 administrators. Research has to follow processes that are inefficient and cost billions. Regular doctors can't try new process or treatments and can't innovate at all. You have to be a special research doctor. Patients cant sign waivers to break the approved treatments and procedures to allow their doctors to experiment. Reducing costs would be simple, but you have to suck it up and realize that there will be more failures and less recourse. I mean, if it were legal someone could come up with a 6 week course and teach me to do some surgical procedures that I could offer out of my house for a very low price and make a good living. There would be more accidents and missed diagnoses (along with more innovation and cures), but everyone could afford it. We need to decide as a society how much risk we can tolerate to have real "affordable" health care. That is what the debate should be. Would everyone have $500 deductible PPOs with major mainstream hospitals in the network? No. Only those that pay for it would.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

(02-10-2017 10:45 PM)chess Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 06:26 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  Is it in the Constitution?

No, it is not.

End of story.

This is not a correct argument. We have rights that are not in the constitution. For example, you don't have the right to murder me.

To get to the heart of the issues, may I suggest looking up negative rights and positive rights. Healthcare would be classified as a positive right. While something like healthcare could be part of a constitution or contract, it seems to be a violation of negative rights.

This is not a perfect argument. No one wishes to see others suffer. If a person is an unlucky person to get a sickness that requires expensive treatment, our current solution is to treat the person, bill the insurance, have the insurance cap out, bill the patient, and have the patient file bankruptcy after exhausting all of their assets. That seems to be a challenge. It seems to be a challenge where we can find a better solution.

Just for clarity....While only 3 crimes...treason,piracy and counterfeiting are mentioned in the constitution. Federal laws against murder have been justified under the commerce and the necessary and proper clauses.

(02-10-2017 10:45 PM)chess Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 06:26 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  Is it in the Constitution?

No, it is not.

End of story.

This is not a correct argument. We have rights that are not in the constitution. For example, you don't have the right to murder me.

To get to the heart of the issues, may I suggest looking up negative rights and positive rights. Healthcare would be classified as a positive right. While something like healthcare could be part of a constitution or contract, it seems to be a violation of negative rights.

This is not a perfect argument. No one wishes to see others suffer. If a person is an unlucky person to get a sickness that requires expensive treatment, our current solution is to treat the person, bill the insurance, have the insurance cap out, bill the patient, and have the patient file bankruptcy after exhausting all of their assets. That seems to be a challenge. It seems to be a challenge where we can find a better solution.

You are not familiar with Roe v Wade are you?

(02-10-2017 10:48 PM)chess Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:15 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:08 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Should all citizens pay taxes? Answer that then we can talk about this other bull-crap.

Yes, We all should be paying a national sales tax on goods. Not a income tax. Which is the most Un-American Tax ever created.

Income tax is not the most un-American tax.

Property tax is the most un-American tax. In Illinois, it is not uncommon for a person to pay $6-25,000/year for the right to live in a property they own. If you do not pay the tax, your property can be confiscated.

I understand your slant. I would only add that under our current paradigm the taxes confiscated are essentially a fee for services provided...police,fire,EMS,infrastructure,public health..ect..ect..ect.. in most places. They may be crazy high some places because of economic conditions and that is unfortunate..but..these are services that we ALL want NEED and are willing to pay for.

For clarity....Id love to see many of the above functions become privatized and be under a different paradigm...but now? We got...what we got.

How about a home? Is home ownership a right? Seems every bit as important as healthcare. I wan't the Government to take over my house payments. Seems fair you guys should be paying for my house. End of story.

Nope, nope and nope.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(02-10-2017 10:48 PM)chess Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:15 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:08 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Should all citizens pay taxes? Answer that then we can talk about this other bull-crap.

Yes, We all should be paying a national sales tax on goods. Not a income tax. Which is the most Un-American Tax ever created.

Income tax is not the most un-American tax.

Property tax is the most un-American tax. In Illinois, it is not uncommon for a person to pay $6-25,000/year for the right to live in a property they own. If you do not pay the tax, your property can be confiscated.

so dont live there.

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

(02-11-2017 12:41 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:48 PM)chess Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:15 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:08 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Should all citizens pay taxes? Answer that then we can talk about this other bull-crap.

Yes, We all should be paying a national sales tax on goods. Not a income tax. Which is the most Un-American Tax ever created.

Income tax is not the most un-American tax.

Property tax is the most un-American tax. In Illinois, it is not uncommon for a person to pay $6-25,000/year for the right to live in a property they own. If you do not pay the tax, your property can be confiscated.

so dont live there.

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

Where is he supposed to reside that is exempt?....a funeral plot?

The Sioux tribe gave health care for all in their tribe who are ill. They also extend it to their friends and allies as well. They consider each other as family. It is sad that greed comes first before healing others to save their lives.