(02-11-2017 12:51 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  The Sioux tribe gave health care for all in their tribe who are ill. They also extend it to their friends and allies as well. They consider each other as family. It is sad that greed comes first before healing others to save their lives.

That is fine...but...fck anyone that is not a friend or ally? Im not sure they get a total high five for their altruism.

(02-11-2017 12:51 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  The Sioux tribe gave health care for all in their tribe who are ill. They also extend it to their friends and allies as well. They consider each other as family. It is sad that greed comes first before healing others to save their lives.

Chitting Bear Claw was a great doctor.

(02-11-2017 01:03 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 12:51 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  The Sioux tribe gave health care for all in their tribe who are ill. They also extend it to their friends and allies as well. They consider each other as family. It is sad that greed comes first before healing others to save their lives.

Chitting Bear Claw was a great doctor.

That's f@cking awesome. I damn near lost it.

(02-10-2017 09:55 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  I'm all for healthcare for Americans if we cut off 100% of foreign aid. it's ridiculous thw amount of money we spend trying to fix other nations problems.

I'll never be for "healthcare as a right" as defined by Bernie Sanders, because it's nonsense, but I agree with your premise. There will come a day that the USA is officially broke. Americans will get hurt. Promises will be broken. Benefits in which were paid for will not be delivered.

I think of that whenever I see libcucks protest for illegal immigrants knowing that it costs the country hundreds of billions of dollars per year. It's disgusting.

http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-f...-taxpayers

(02-11-2017 12:51 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 12:41 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:48 PM)chess Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:15 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:08 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Should all citizens pay taxes? Answer that then we can talk about this other bull-crap.

Yes, We all should be paying a national sales tax on goods. Not a income tax. Which is the most Un-American Tax ever created.

Income tax is not the most un-American tax.

Property tax is the most un-American tax. In Illinois, it is not uncommon for a person to pay $6-25,000/year for the right to live in a property they own. If you do not pay the tax, your property can be confiscated.

so dont live there.

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Where is he supposed to reside that is exempt?....a funeral plot?

ffs, plenty of places have lower taxes than Illinois. Its the 10th worst state for taxes.

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-hi...den/20494/

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(02-11-2017 12:51 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  The Sioux tribe gave health care for all in their tribe who are ill. They also extend it to their friends and allies as well. They consider each other as family. It is sad that greed comes first before healing others to save their lives.

Hunter gatherer economics don't scale to a nation of millions.

I know you want doctors and nurses to take a pay cut so that their greed does not come before healing but in the modern world you kind of need to incentivize people to take 10 years of school and residency.

Health care being a "right".....

Health care requires intelligent people who choose to become doctors. It requires they ace their schooling, get accepted into medical school, pay out of the ass for it, work their asses off to graduate, then residency. Without these people, there is no health care.

So health care cannot possibly be a right since the entire concept relies on OTHER PEOPLE stepping up to the plate and being successful.

You have no inherent right to health care. No one has inherent rights to services provided by other people.

(02-10-2017 09:06 PM)DexterDevil Wrote:  My take on it, access to healthcare should be a right, the healthcare itself is a service and should be treated as such. That said, something has to be done about the price gouging.

Perhaps. But said "access" has been hampered more by zerOcare than anything I've witnessed prior.

We've got folks with "coverage" (that we, incidentally, help pay for) that still can't get "healthcare". Why?

The exorbitant premiums only get you in the door. The actual healthcare and deductibles, OOP costs and everything else to cover 80 YO's potential maternity care have gone through the roof.

Access is useless. If you can't afford the care that access allows for.

(02-11-2017 12:51 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  The Sioux tribe gave health care for all in their tribe who are ill. They also extend it to their friends and allies as well. They consider each other as family. It is sad that greed comes first before healing others to save their lives.

Agreed. So many of us give of our time, donations and other avenues to help ease the plight of many.

You?

(02-11-2017 02:51 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 09:06 PM)DexterDevil Wrote:  My take on it, access to healthcare should be a right, the healthcare itself is a service and should be treated as such. That said, something has to be done about the price gouging.

Perhaps. But said "access" has been hampered more by zerOcare than anything I've witnessed prior.

We've got folks with "coverage" (that we, incidentally, help pay for) that still can't get "healthcare". Why?

The exorbitant premiums only get you in the door. The actual healthcare and deductibles, OOP costs and everything else to cover 80 YO's potential maternity care have gone through the roof.

Access is useless. If you can't afford the care that access allows for.

I absolutely agree with everything you just said, it's why I separated access from the service. Can't afford the service you don't get the access, if you can afford the service I see no reason to deny access.

(02-11-2017 01:45 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  Health care being a "right".....

Health care requires intelligent people who choose to become doctors. It requires they ace their schooling, get accepted into medical school, pay out of the ass for it, work their asses off to graduate, then residency. Without these people, there is no health care.

So health care cannot possibly be a right since the entire concept relies on OTHER PEOPLE stepping up to the plate and being successful.

You have no inherent right to health care. No one has inherent rights to services provided by other people.

Fair.

Just as you do not have the right to have a nice paved road between you and where ever you work. You also do not have the right to have a lateral sewer line connected to a main to transport all the waste and bodily functions you and your family have to a wastewater treatment plant (side bar, HOOD- is it in the constitution?). Nevertheless, here I am constructing and inspecting sewer lines to get your waste from point A to point B.

You don't have the right to clean, drinkable water. Yet here I am, going from water treatment plant to water treatment plant insuring that all the influent is properly treated and sanitized before it enters your tap. One of the greatest achievements of the 20th century was the drastic reduction of these deadly diseases thanks to water and wastewater treatment plants, of which, most of you pay for through taxes.

I consider myself an intelligent person (although I'd admit I still have a lot to learn), but I stepped up to the plate. I have a Master's Degree in Civil Engineering. Yet here I am, walking through sewer mains at 4 AM, inspecting mains and coming up with ideas to fix them. It's not a glorious job. I don't have a six figure salary. It stinks, it's cold down there, and it's most definitely a job that requires a shower after you're done with work, rather than a job that requires a shower before work. I'm not complaining, I love what I do, but it is what it is.

Prior to the 20th century, Cholera, Typhoid, and Yellow Fever killed millions. Now, we all pay taxes to build water treatment plants to insure that these bacterium do not enter your home. Life expectancy soared after these engineering processes were put into place.

The next logical step in public health, IMO, is universal healthcare for all Americans. I admit that the government can be very inefficient when it comes to providing services. It can be improved. Yet these services are imperative to modern society. We can do better, and I believe that the next step in the advancement of our society as a whole must include guaranteed healthcare for all.

Full disclaimer: I'm not comparing myself to a doctor. I understand that doctors have gone through years of training at their expense to do what they do, and I appreciate it fully. I also believe doctors should be justly compensated for the service they provide, considering the years of education and training they undergo.

TL:DR- I believe healthcare isn't a right, but we as a society should provide it to all.

(02-11-2017 03:19 AM)DexterDevil Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 02:51 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 09:06 PM)DexterDevil Wrote:  My take on it, access to healthcare should be a right, the healthcare itself is a service and should be treated as such. That said, something has to be done about the price gouging.

Perhaps. But said "access" has been hampered more by zerOcare than anything I've witnessed prior.

We've got folks with "coverage" (that we, incidentally, help pay for) that still can't get "healthcare". Why?

The exorbitant premiums only get you in the door. The actual healthcare and deductibles, OOP costs and everything else to cover 80 YO's potential maternity care have gone through the roof.

Access is useless. If you can't afford the care that access allows for.

I absolutely agree with everything you just said, it's why I separated access from the service. Can't afford the service you don't get the access, if you can afford the service I see no reason to deny access.

Yea, I wasn't really taking issue with anything you said, just adding to it.

And when I say we help pay for, we used to PAY FOR. Can't any longer. The plan(s) we had for years (since 1995) were what is now called "Platinum", we also did life insurance we paid for, dental, whatever. This last stretch, since around '08 and literally NO economic improvement since?

The most trying times we've had. Something had to give. And I was willing and cheerfully able to punch that ticket to blow the whole schithouse up in flames.

For too many of us out here the situation was only going to get worse, and why double down on the stupid?

So, we got Trump...

(02-11-2017 03:44 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 01:45 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  Health care being a "right".....

Health care requires intelligent people who choose to become doctors. It requires they ace their schooling, get accepted into medical school, pay out of the ass for it, work their asses off to graduate, then residency. Without these people, there is no health care.

So health care cannot possibly be a right since the entire concept relies on OTHER PEOPLE stepping up to the plate and being successful.

You have no inherent right to health care. No one has inherent rights to services provided by other people.

Fair.

Just as you do no have the right to have a nice paved road between you and where ever you work. You also do not have the right to have a lateral sewer line connected to a main to transport all the waste and bodily functions you and your family have to a wastewater treatment plant (side bar, HOOD- is it in the constitution?). Nevertheless, here I am constructing and inspecting sewer lines to get your waste from point A to point B.

Okay, but did I claim that paved roads and sewage lines are human rights? Because they aren't.

(02-11-2017 04:26 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 03:44 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 01:45 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  Health care being a "right".....

Health care requires intelligent people who choose to become doctors. It requires they ace their schooling, get accepted into medical school, pay out of the ass for it, work their asses off to graduate, then residency. Without these people, there is no health care.

So health care cannot possibly be a right since the entire concept relies on OTHER PEOPLE stepping up to the plate and being successful.

You have no inherent right to health care. No one has inherent rights to services provided by other people.

Fair.

Just as you do not have the right to have a nice paved road between you and where ever you work. You also do not have the right to have a lateral sewer line connected to a main to transport all the waste and bodily functions you and your family have to a wastewater treatment plant (side bar, HOOD- is it in the constitution?). Nevertheless, here I am constructing and inspecting sewer lines to get your waste from point A to point B.

Okay, but did I claim that paved roads and sewage lines are human rights? Because they aren't.

No, you didn't. And I agree with you that they aren't. But I think we as a society should provide them

(02-11-2017 04:28 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 04:26 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 03:44 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 01:45 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  Health care being a "right".....

Health care requires intelligent people who choose to become doctors. It requires they ace their schooling, get accepted into medical school, pay out of the ass for it, work their asses off to graduate, then residency. Without these people, there is no health care.

So health care cannot possibly be a right since the entire concept relies on OTHER PEOPLE stepping up to the plate and being successful.

You have no inherent right to health care. No one has inherent rights to services provided by other people.

Fair.

Just as you do no have the right to have a nice paved road between you and where ever you work. You also do not have the right to have a lateral sewer line connected to a main to transport all the waste and bodily functions you and your family have to a wastewater treatment plant (side bar, HOOD- is it in the constitution?). Nevertheless, here I am constructing and inspecting sewer lines to get your waste from point A to point B.

Okay, but did I claim that paved roads and sewage lines are human rights? Because they aren't.

No, you didn't. And I agree with you that they aren't. But I think we as a society should provide them

I agree. To those who pay for the services.

(02-11-2017 03:44 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 01:45 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  Health care being a "right".....

Health care requires intelligent people who choose to become doctors. It requires they ace their schooling, get accepted into medical school, pay out of the ass for it, work their asses off to graduate, then residency. Without these people, there is no health care.

So health care cannot possibly be a right since the entire concept relies on OTHER PEOPLE stepping up to the plate and being successful.

You have no inherent right to health care. No one has inherent rights to services provided by other people.

Fair.

Just as you do not have the right to have a nice paved road between you and where ever you work. You also do not have the right to have a lateral sewer line connected to a main to transport all the waste and bodily functions you and your family have to a wastewater treatment plant (side bar, HOOD- is it in the constitution?). Nevertheless, here I am constructing and inspecting sewer lines to get your waste from point A to point B.

You don't have the right to clean, drinkable water. Yet here I am, going from water treatment plant to water treatment plant insuring that all the influent is properly treated and sanitized before it enters your tap. One of the greatest achievements of the 20th century was the drastic reduction of these deadly diseases thanks to water and wastewater treatment plants, of which, most of you pay for through taxes.

I much prefer a dirt road that I can patch myself with dirt and rock, I also only need a well with a pump and my poop can either go into the septic tank to be pumped out later or out into the farm/woods, pee around the sides of the lean-to's, coops, and the barn. Ain't my fault everyone decides to become pack rats within a small area that requires paved roads, sewer systems, and humongous water treatment facilities or moves to an area that isn't particularly built to sustain life. Beauty of hard water is that you can purify and filter it yourself.

(02-11-2017 04:59 AM)DexterDevil Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 03:44 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 01:45 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  Health care being a "right".....

Health care requires intelligent people who choose to become doctors. It requires they ace their schooling, get accepted into medical school, pay out of the ass for it, work their asses off to graduate, then residency. Without these people, there is no health care.

So health care cannot possibly be a right since the entire concept relies on OTHER PEOPLE stepping up to the plate and being successful.

You have no inherent right to health care. No one has inherent rights to services provided by other people.

Fair.

Just as you do not have the right to have a nice paved road between you and where ever you work. You also do not have the right to have a lateral sewer line connected to a main to transport all the waste and bodily functions you and your family have to a wastewater treatment plant (side bar, HOOD- is it in the constitution?). Nevertheless, here I am constructing and inspecting sewer lines to get your waste from point A to point B.

You don't have the right to clean, drinkable water. Yet here I am, going from water treatment plant to water treatment plant insuring that all the influent is properly treated and sanitized before it enters your tap. One of the greatest achievements of the 20th century was the drastic reduction of these deadly diseases thanks to water and wastewater treatment plants, of which, most of you pay for through taxes.

I much prefer a dirt road that I can patch myself with dirt and rock, I also only need a well with a pump and my poop can either go into the septic tank to be pumped out later or out into the farm/woods, pee around the sides of the lean-to's, coops, and the barn. Ain't my fault everyone decides to become pack rats within a small area that requires paved roads, sewer systems, and humongous water treatment facilities or moves to an area that isn't particularly built to sustain life. Beauty of hard water is that you can purify and filter it yourself.

We had a 300 ft well growing up for our water and a septic tank for our unmentionables. Now I live in an urban area. Dirt roads and septic tanks are fine for people living in the country, but let's be real.

80% of Americans now live in structured municipalities. Water treatment and wastewater treatment are key to maintaining public health. Check out cities in India if you'd like to see the alternative.

As to the topic of this thread... No, healthcare isn't a right. But we're the wealthiest nation in the history of mankind. We've gone so far to provide safe drinking water for most Americans (the situation in Flint is a national embarrassment). We should go further and provide universal healthcare for all Americans.

A healthier society is a more productive society, no?

(02-11-2017 05:25 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 04:59 AM)DexterDevil Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 03:44 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 01:45 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  Health care being a "right".....

Health care requires intelligent people who choose to become doctors. It requires they ace their schooling, get accepted into medical school, pay out of the ass for it, work their asses off to graduate, then residency. Without these people, there is no health care.

So health care cannot possibly be a right since the entire concept relies on OTHER PEOPLE stepping up to the plate and being successful.

You have no inherent right to health care. No one has inherent rights to services provided by other people.

Fair.

Just as you do not have the right to have a nice paved road between you and where ever you work. You also do not have the right to have a lateral sewer line connected to a main to transport all the waste and bodily functions you and your family have to a wastewater treatment plant (side bar, HOOD- is it in the constitution?). Nevertheless, here I am constructing and inspecting sewer lines to get your waste from point A to point B.

You don't have the right to clean, drinkable water. Yet here I am, going from water treatment plant to water treatment plant insuring that all the influent is properly treated and sanitized before it enters your tap. One of the greatest achievements of the 20th century was the drastic reduction of these deadly diseases thanks to water and wastewater treatment plants, of which, most of you pay for through taxes.

I much prefer a dirt road that I can patch myself with dirt and rock, I also only need a well with a pump and my poop can either go into the septic tank to be pumped out later or out into the farm/woods, pee around the sides of the lean-to's, coops, and the barn. Ain't my fault everyone decides to become pack rats within a small area that requires paved roads, sewer systems, and humongous water treatment facilities or moves to an area that isn't particularly built to sustain life. Beauty of hard water is that you can purify and filter it yourself.

We had a 300 ft well growing up for our water and a septic tank for our unmentionables. Now I live in an urban area. Dirt roads and septic tanks are fine for people living in the country, but let's be real.

80% of Americans now live in structured municipalities. Water treatment and wastewater treatment are key to maintaining public health. Check out cities in India if you'd like to see the alternative.

As to the topic of this thread... No, healthcare isn't a right. But we're the wealthiest nation in the history of mankind. We've gone so far to provide safe drinking water for most Americans (the situation in Flint is a national embarrassment). We should go further and provide universal healthcare for all Americans.

A healthier society is a more productive society, no?

I believe to have sustainable and productive societies that we need to thin the herd through natural selection, even if that meant me, not a popular opinion but it is one I stand by. I think by giving so many an easy route to survival that we are only weakening the species as a whole and interrupting a process that made us better as a species. Uneducated opinion of course.

(02-11-2017 12:51 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  The Sioux tribe gave health care for all in their tribe who are ill. They also extend it to their friends and allies as well. They consider each other as family. It is sad that greed comes first before healing others to save their lives.

The tribe doctor didn't have to pay $500k for 10 years of training, Billions for research and government approvals for processes, procedures, medicine, and equipment, didn't have to hire hoards of administrators to do paperwork and coordinate with insurance, and didn't have to worry about getting sued either frivolously or for an honest mistake. You went to his teepee and he mixed you a potion right there, maybe bled you a little, and you went on your way. No need to even stop at Walgreens on the way home.

Do you get it yet?

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(02-11-2017 01:37 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-11-2017 12:51 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  The Sioux tribe gave health care for all in their tribe who are ill. They also extend it to their friends and allies as well. They consider each other as family. It is sad that greed comes first before healing others to save their lives.

Hunter gatherer economics don't scale to a nation of millions.

I know you want doctors and nurses to take a pay cut so that their greed does not come before healing but in the modern world you kind of need to incentivize people to take 10 years of school and residency.

Doctors and nurses could make $0 and the drop in your rates would be unnoticable. The fixes are easy. The question is how far are we willing to go.

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