Flip, I really do appreciate the nuance you are trying to bring. I don't think you are a bigot or fear monger. I just think you are mistaken about the safety risk and overstating the privacy concern. We don't have a history of people dressing up as women to take advantage of loopholes (how cartoonish or sitcom this sounds); that's a very bizarre and premeditated effort for very little chance of criminal gratification. The crimes alone remain illegal and punishable. Bathroom laws won't excuse loitering or other suspicious activity. They will, however, challenge people to mind their own business and not act irrationally on unreasonable suspicion against legitimate transgender persons.

The bathrooms weren't suddenly opened to all spectators. You will disagree with me, and on that basis we'll have to respectfully disagree. I expect HB2 to die eventually, and if/when that happens perhaps stronger language and provisions will remedy your concerns without unreasonable detraction from anti-discrimination measures.

(09-21-2016 10:18 AM)shampoo Wrote:  We don't have a history of people dressing up as women to take advantage of loopholes (how cartoonish or sitcom this sounds); that's a very bizarre and premeditated effort for very little chance of criminal gratification. The crimes alone remain illegal and punishable.

The bathrooms weren't suddenly opened to all spectators. You will disagree with me, and on that basis we'll have to respectfully disagree. I expect HB2 to die eventually, and if/when that happens perhaps stronger language and provisions will remedy your concerns without unreasonable detraction from anti-discrimination measures.

The point is, a man doesn't have to crossdress to enter the women's bathroom.

Consider Chopper. Yesterday, he was a straight, 300 lb., bearded biker dude, who was legally prohibited from entering the women's bathroom.

Today, Chopper decides that she identifies as a woman. Specifically, she identifies as a gay woman who is attracted to other women. More specifically, she is a gay woman, attracted to other women, who rejects gender norms for clothing and appearance, and as such will continue to grow her long beard, wear the same clothing, and maintain the same lifestyle she had as a male.

In other words, the one and only thing that has effectively changed about Chopper is her preferred pronoun. And so, off Chopper goes to the Charlotte shopping mall. Oddly, Chopper has developed a very small bladder requiring very frequent visits to the various women's bathrooms throughout the mall. Chopper never buys anything, but she returns home, very pleased with her trip.

The next morning, Chopper sleeps in, and when she wakes up, something feels different. Chopper feels like . . . a man. He can't wait for breakfast.

Now, is Chopper lying? Don't know. Don't have any way to tell. Chopper is whatever he/she declares himself/herself to be.
Can the other mall patrons complain? Not to any effect, and only if they want to risk being called a bigot.
Can the business owner's do anything? Only if they want to risk a harassment lawsuit.

There is no answer that is going to please everybody. If one side gains, it is because the other side gives something up. I feel strongly that the Charlotte law is not the answer. In fact, I think it is ridiculous. But, I have no problem with others who may reasonably disagree. I am, however, fed up and totally disgusted with the sanctimonious hypocrites at the NCAA and anyone else who declares that disagreement with their point of view is tantamount to prejudice and bigotry that deserves to be punished.

I just want my basketball tournament at the best place for it. I don't care who goes to the bathroom with me.

(09-21-2016 11:50 AM)Flippmb Wrote:  

(09-21-2016 10:18 AM)shampoo Wrote:  We don't have a history of people dressing up as women to take advantage of loopholes (how cartoonish or sitcom this sounds); that's a very bizarre and premeditated effort for very little chance of criminal gratification. The crimes alone remain illegal and punishable.

The bathrooms weren't suddenly opened to all spectators. You will disagree with me, and on that basis we'll have to respectfully disagree. I expect HB2 to die eventually, and if/when that happens perhaps stronger language and provisions will remedy your concerns without unreasonable detraction from anti-discrimination measures.

The point is, a man doesn't have to crossdress to enter the women's bathroom.

Consider Chopper. Yesterday, he was a straight, 300 lb., bearded biker dude, who was legally prohibited from entering the women's bathroom.

Today, Chopper decides that she identifies as a woman. Specifically, she identifies as a gay woman who is attracted to other women. More specifically, she is a gay woman, attracted to other women, who rejects gender norms for clothing and appearance, and as such will continue to grow her long beard, wear the same clothing, and maintain the same lifestyle she had as a male.

In other words, the one and only thing that has effectively changed about Chopper is her preferred pronoun. And so, off Chopper goes to the Charlotte shopping mall. Oddly, Chopper has developed a very small bladder requiring very frequent visits to the various women's bathrooms throughout the mall. Chopper never buys anything, but she returns home, very pleased with her trip.

The next morning, Chopper sleeps in, and when she wakes up, something feels different. Chopper feels like . . . a man. He can't wait for breakfast.

Now, is Chopper lying? Don't know. Don't have any way to tell. Chopper is whatever he/she declares himself/herself to be.
Can the other mall patrons complain? Not to any effect, and only if they want to risk being called a bigot.
Can the business owner's do anything? Only if they want to risk a harassment lawsuit.

There is no answer that is going to please everybody. If one side gains, it is because the other side gives something up. I feel strongly that the Charlotte law is not the answer. In fact, I think it is ridiculous. But, I have no problem with others who may reasonably disagree. I am, however, fed up and totally disgusted with the sanctimonious hypocrites at the NCAA and anyone else who declares that disagreement with their point of view is tantamount to prejudice and bigotry that deserves to be punished.

At what point does hyper-extreme political correctness transition into insanity, if it has not already done so?

(09-21-2016 11:50 AM)Flippmb Wrote:  

(09-21-2016 10:18 AM)shampoo Wrote:  We don't have a history of people dressing up as women to take advantage of loopholes (how cartoonish or sitcom this sounds); that's a very bizarre and premeditated effort for very little chance of criminal gratification. The crimes alone remain illegal and punishable.

The bathrooms weren't suddenly opened to all spectators. You will disagree with me, and on that basis we'll have to respectfully disagree. I expect HB2 to die eventually, and if/when that happens perhaps stronger language and provisions will remedy your concerns without unreasonable detraction from anti-discrimination measures.

The point is, a man doesn't have to crossdress to enter the women's bathroom.

Consider Chopper. Yesterday, he was a straight, 300 lb., bearded biker dude, who was legally prohibited from entering the women's bathroom.

Today, Chopper decides that she identifies as a woman. Specifically, she identifies as a gay woman who is attracted to other women. More specifically, she is a gay woman, attracted to other women, who rejects gender norms for clothing and appearance, and as such will continue to grow her long beard, wear the same clothing, and maintain the same lifestyle she had as a male.

In other words, the one and only thing that has effectively changed about Chopper is her preferred pronoun. And so, off Chopper goes to the Charlotte shopping mall. Oddly, Chopper has developed a very small bladder requiring very frequent visits to the various women's bathrooms throughout the mall. Chopper never buys anything, but she returns home, very pleased with her trip.

The next morning, Chopper sleeps in, and when she wakes up, something feels different. Chopper feels like . . . a man. He can't wait for breakfast.

Now, is Chopper lying? Don't know. Don't have any way to tell. Chopper is whatever he/she declares himself/herself to be.
Can the other mall patrons complain? Not to any effect, and only if they want to risk being called a bigot.
Can the business owner's do anything? Only if they want to risk a harassment lawsuit.

There is no answer that is going to please everybody. If one side gains, it is because the other side gives something up. I feel strongly that the Charlotte law is not the answer. In fact, I think it is ridiculous. But, I have no problem with others who may reasonably disagree. I am, however, fed up and totally disgusted with the sanctimonious hypocrites at the NCAA and anyone else who declares that disagreement with their point of view is tantamount to prejudice and bigotry that deserves to be punished.

Is Mr. or Mrs. Chopper peeking in the stalls? Leering at women? Harassing anyone?

If I see someone that might be a man in the ladies room, sure I might be curious and take note of their actions, but I'd also do that with women that are exhibiting unusual behavior. Maybe it's just me, but I am more concerned with a person's actions. I'd be much more concerned about a woman that looked like she was high on something and being sneaky in the women's room than a biker dude quietly taking a leak a few stalls down.

(09-21-2016 12:37 PM)prosec34 Wrote:  I just want my basketball tournament at the best place for it. I don't care who goes to the bathroom with me.

You haven't met Chopper!

(09-21-2016 12:37 PM)prosec34 Wrote:  I just want my basketball tournament at the best place for it. I don't care who goes to the bathroom with me.

Right, and the best place is Asheville. So we are going to move it to appease people who wouldn't come to the tournament anyway.

Chopper is a fictional relative of the scarecrow dressed in women's clothing. People don't wake up and simply decide one day they are/feel gay, transgender, or any other form of LGBT. Moreover, people do not act out on such feelings spontaneously. Now you are trivializing the identity.

From the standpoint of argumentation, I also find it inconsistent and improbable that Chopper would choose a conventionally male lifestyle but, for no reason other than the purpose of your reasoning, insist upon identifying as a woman--you are claiming Chopper will identify wih (i.e., embrace, associate with) all male attributes except a pronoun and bathroom. It's a very strained scenario and entirely unrepresentative of real LGBT people.

You can come up with dozens of "possible" scenarios, but it does not qualify a likelihood or risk.

Ok, nobody's actually going anywhere or changing opinions. Back to basketball. I want it in Asheville. We all agree there.

Well being honest here, I want it in Johnson City. But if it HAS to be elsewhere, my vote goes to Asheville.

(09-21-2016 03:00 PM)shampoo Wrote:  Chopper is a fictional relative of the scarecrow dressed in women's clothing. People don't wake up and simply decide one day they are/feel gay, transgender, or any other form of LGBT. Moreover, people do not act out on such feelings spontaneously. Now you are trivializing the identity.

From the standpoint of argumentation, I also find it inconsistent and improbable that Chopper would choose a conventionally male lifestyle but, for no reason other than the purpose of your reasoning, insist upon identifying as a woman--you are claiming Chopper will identify wih (i.e., embrace, associate with) all male attributes except a pronoun and bathroom. It's a very strained scenario and entirely unrepresentative of real LGBT people.

You can come up with dozens of "possible" scenarios, but it does not qualify a likelihood or risk.

Ok, nobody's actually going anywhere or changing opinions. Back to basketball. I want it in Asheville. We all agree there.

Oh, good grief. Chopper isn't LGBT. He's your run-of-the-mill predator.

I have said over and over that I'm not worried about LGBT people. It's the fact that Chopper and his ilk can use this law as cover to legally go where they could not go before.

(09-21-2016 09:51 PM)Flippmb Wrote:  

(09-21-2016 03:00 PM)shampoo Wrote:  Chopper is a fictional relative of the scarecrow dressed in women's clothing. People don't wake up and simply decide one day they are/feel gay, transgender, or any other form of LGBT. Moreover, people do not act out on such feelings spontaneously. Now you are trivializing the identity.

From the standpoint of argumentation, I also find it inconsistent and improbable that Chopper would choose a conventionally male lifestyle but, for no reason other than the purpose of your reasoning, insist upon identifying as a woman--you are claiming Chopper will identify wih (i.e., embrace, associate with) all male attributes except a pronoun and bathroom. It's a very strained scenario and entirely unrepresentative of real LGBT people.

You can come up with dozens of "possible" scenarios, but it does not qualify a likelihood or risk.

Ok, nobody's actually going anywhere or changing opinions. Back to basketball. I want it in Asheville. We all agree there.

Oh, good grief. Chopper isn't LGBT. He's your run-of-the-mill predator.

I have said over and over that I'm not worried about LGBT people. It's the fact that Chopper and his ilk can use this law as cover to legally go where they could not go before.

Below, why invite this? Is this a concern for women, especially female children? Going national with open dressing room, locker room, shower, et al laws will not result in more of this sort of thing?

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/man-ar...ssing-room

(09-22-2016 07:29 AM)Buc66 Wrote:  

(09-21-2016 09:51 PM)Flippmb Wrote:  

(09-21-2016 03:00 PM)shampoo Wrote:  Chopper is a fictional relative of the scarecrow dressed in women's clothing. People don't wake up and simply decide one day they are/feel gay, transgender, or any other form of LGBT. Moreover, people do not act out on such feelings spontaneously. Now you are trivializing the identity.

From the standpoint of argumentation, I also find it inconsistent and improbable that Chopper would choose a conventionally male lifestyle but, for no reason other than the purpose of your reasoning, insist upon identifying as a woman--you are claiming Chopper will identify wih (i.e., embrace, associate with) all male attributes except a pronoun and bathroom. It's a very strained scenario and entirely unrepresentative of real LGBT people.

You can come up with dozens of "possible" scenarios, but it does not qualify a likelihood or risk.

Ok, nobody's actually going anywhere or changing opinions. Back to basketball. I want it in Asheville. We all agree there.

Oh, good grief. Chopper isn't LGBT. He's your run-of-the-mill predator.

I have said over and over that I'm not worried about LGBT people. It's the fact that Chopper and his ilk can use this law as cover to legally go where they could not go before.

Below, why invite this? Is this a concern for women, especially female children? Going national with open dressing room, locker room, shower, et al laws will not result in more of this sort of thing?

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/man-ar...ssing-room

What stopped that before? Fact is, nothing. There was never any magic force field around restrooms that prevented people from doing bad things. A man or a woman videotaping others in a restroom in this manner is STILL illegal. Peeking over stalls and in doors is STILL illegal.

I'm really not sure what you think can be done differently. Short of guards at the door, checking papers, there is no way to enforce gender separated bathrooms. There honestly never has been. The only realistic solution is to design better bathroom options. If it's about safety, then make it about safety...period.

(09-22-2016 11:28 AM)queenladybug817 Wrote:  What stopped that before?

The law.

You can argue that people won't obey the law, but if that's sound reasoning, why do we have laws against theft, arson, murder?

Delayed:


http://www.johnsoncitypress.com/Sports/2...&lp=10&p=1

I'm not sure anyone has addressed the fact our culture is not the one in which we grew up. At least not the one I did. I do understand boundaries are constantly being pushed and extremism has become the norm. I think a little old fashioned ''No, you can't have that,'' is needed. Otherwise, they'll keep tugging at your shirt screaming, ''I want it, I want, can I have it, can I have it!''

FYI squeak, if you are going to put me on blast in PM's, at least turn yours on so I can respond. I didn't delete any conversation. I merged this thread with the other thread that was about the exact same topic.

(09-25-2016 06:32 AM)ETSUfan1 Wrote:  FYI squeak, if you are going to put me on blast in PM's, at least turn yours on so I can respond. I didn't delete any conversation. I merged this thread with the other thread that was about the exact same topic.

Fiqured it out.

http://www.wcyb.com/sports/etsu/update-s.../101003930

Staying. Good!

"'This has been a thoughtful, respectful process by all parties in response to a complicated issue. Honoring our commitments for this academic year does not punish the local host communities and gives our student-athletes the best championship experience we can provide,' conference Commissioner John Iamarino said in a statement."

Well done, SoCon. Congratulations on eschewing the knee-jerk reactions of the NCAA and ACC and realizing that this is indeed a "complicated issue."