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SoCon Asheville Boycott
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queenladybug817 Offline
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Post: #61
RE: SoCon Asheville Boycott
As for your fears that anti-discrimination laws that allow transgender people to use the bathroom of their gender identity lead to safety issues for women and girls? The statistics say otherwise. The numerous states and communities that have put these in place have not had any uptick in problems for women and girls. They HAVE had a drop in attacks and harassment of transgender people.

Being scared of "what ifs" when the facts show otherwise? Why?
09-18-2016 01:57 PM
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squeak Offline
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Post: #62
RE: SoCon Asheville Boycott
I like to prevent "what ifs" if possible. If that makes me a bigot, so be it.
09-18-2016 02:14 PM
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queenladybug817 Offline
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Post: #63
RE: SoCon Asheville Boycott
(09-18-2016 02:14 PM)squeak Wrote:  I like to prevent "what ifs" if possible. If that makes me a bigot, so be it.
I reserve the term bigot for people that are overwhelmingly so stuck up their own butt that they can't see the forest for the trees.

Do you really think a MOM - mother of 3 daughters isn't concerned about the safety of those girls and herself? Do you really honestly think I haven't thought it all through?

I get it - I really do, you have concerns about safety. In a way, they are almost understandable. However, your plane "could" crash. Do you refuse to fly? You "could" get hit by a call walking across the street, but do you stay home? I'm pretty sure the answer for most people is no, they take precautions. I "could" get followed into the bathroom by a man. A man "could" dress up like a woman with the intent of harming me in the bathroom. I "could" get attacked walking down the street. It doesn't give me the right to look at all men as predators and say they must stay 50 feet away from me or something like that. Statistically, I know the risk factors and take precautions in situations.

And these men, the ones you worry may sneak into the women's room under anti-discrimination laws and policy? They are already in the bathroom with little boys and have full access. Do you not advocate for them to have a separate bathroom for little boys to keep them away from those men too? What about the women out there that are predators and go after little girls in the women's room? Less common, but it happens. What about the women that lure girls and teens to human trafficking rings? They are allowed in the women's room and can do harm. Nothing about HB2 even addresses issues like that. It can't even be enforced. I've asked several times here, how do you enforce HB2 bathroom laws? Who decides and how? And even HB2 can be twisted for a predator's benefit if a man just says he was born female, so he should be in the women's room. It goes both ways and no one that says HB2 is about safety EVER answers me on that. It is just as much of a concern as your worry that a man will dress up as a woman. Heck, it's easier for the man than dressing up actually.

So tell me, anyone that is ok with HB2 - how is it enforced? How do you stop people from using it to harm girls?
09-18-2016 02:27 PM
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Flippmb Offline
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Post: #64
RE: SoCon Asheville Boycott
I guess we could relocate all bathrooms to well lit, safer areas, and/or retrofit them with floor-to-ceiling partitions, trouble-free locks, and diaper stations. Sure it's impractical, and it might be tough financially on Mom and Pop, who already mortgaged their house and spent all of their savings to open that ice cream shop, but hey, we're trying to be fair.

Or, we could come up with a legal definition of transgender based on medical diagnosis and have everyone who is transgender carry a note from their doctor. Of course, as you say, that science is still evolving, the Obama DOJ has declared any standard other than self-identification is illegal, and some people may object to having to carry papers, but hey, we can't be using some "unenforceable standard."

Or, we could go back in time, Charlotte could avoid passing the law that started all of this trouble, the NC legislature would never address the issue, the NCAA could stay out of politics, and transgender people could keep using the bathroom of their choice with almost no one noticing. And we could look forward to the SoCon tournament in Asheville.

(By the way, I'd like to see the evidence that bathroom laws like Charlotte's have worked as intended.)
09-18-2016 02:46 PM
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Buc66 Offline
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Post: #65
RE: SoCon tournaments may be moved from North Carolina
(09-18-2016 12:54 PM)queenladybug817 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 12:02 PM)ETSUAlumni Wrote:  So by your logic of tj cromer thinks he's a girl he should be able to play women's basketball
If TJ began to take hormones and transition, then I think it should be a consideration. Many studies are being done about the affects of muscle structure and other physical characteristics of persons during the transition process.

The problem is that it's not as clean cut and simple as you seem to want to make it. And you are still comparing apples and oranges. Discrimination with regard to employment and bathrooms, is not the same as rules that govern athletic competition. I think the NCAA and other "rule makers" with regard to athletics are going to need to start doing a lot of research on how to handle it all. There is not going to be a simple quick solution.

But again, I'd like to know how you want to enforce the bathroom rule of HB2? You seem to think it's simple.

Clean and simple? What is a female to do when an obviously biological male enters the locker room shower with her and she has no legal recourse if said person is protected by law in that he can legally call himself a female?
09-18-2016 03:13 PM
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queenladybug817 Offline
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Post: #66
RE: SoCon Asheville Boycott
Mom and Pop actually probably have a much better setup than a lot of places already. Many small businesses have a single occupant male and female bathroom. Change signage to just "bathroom", have at least one with a changing station and make sure they both meet ADA compliance (which is technically already law) and require working locks.

If bathroom safety is SO very important that you feel it is worth discriminating against people and allowing them to be harassed because they don't fit your mold of what makes a person male or female, then maybe it's worth people footing the bill for that level of safety.

OR you can just choose to believe stats that are readily available about how transgender people are currently treated everywhere and how anti-discrimination laws have helped alleviate these and admit, it isn't about safety. It's about the fact that transgender people make you feel funny and you don't want to admit anything that would normalize them, like them having the same rights as everyone else.

If you are honestly interested in some of the statistics and what can be done, this is a great start. http://transgenderlawcenter.org/resource...g-in-peace

As for a medical definition, what do you want? How about something like intersex? Conditions like androgen insensitivity syndrome are one of these. In utero, the fetus has XY chromosomes, which would typically be male. However, something happens and the fetus cannot do anything with the male hormones. Develops physically as female. Looks female and many don't realize until puberty that they have no uterus or ovaries. Chromosomes say XY, male, but by our definition by looks, would appear to be female. Intersex conditions are not as rare as once thought. It wasn't tracked and social stigmas still make it difficult to get accurate numbers. Estimates are like 1 in 1500 or 1 in 2000 births. May be even more common though. And these are the KNOWN ones.

What gender do you want to put on the birth certificate for a baby born with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome? What bathroom do you want that child to use?

And again I ask, what standard do you want to use to determine bathroom use? The genie is out of the bottle. We can't ignore the fact that transgender people had to create websites and apps to give them lists of safe bathrooms. That bathrooms were inherently unsafe for most transgender people all over the county. Laws like HB2 just cannot be enforced in a sensible way. We can't go back in time.

You propose paper? So who pays for the potty police? You think it's horrible to get mom and pop to upgrade the bathroom? So they need to hire a bathroom guard instead?
09-18-2016 03:26 PM
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queenladybug817 Offline
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Post: #67
RE: SoCon tournaments may be moved from North Carolina
(09-18-2016 03:13 PM)Buc66 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 12:54 PM)queenladybug817 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 12:02 PM)ETSUAlumni Wrote:  So by your logic of tj cromer thinks he's a girl he should be able to play women's basketball
If TJ began to take hormones and transition, then I think it should be a consideration. Many studies are being done about the affects of muscle structure and other physical characteristics of persons during the transition process.

The problem is that it's not as clean cut and simple as you seem to want to make it. And you are still comparing apples and oranges. Discrimination with regard to employment and bathrooms, is not the same as rules that govern athletic competition. I think the NCAA and other "rule makers" with regard to athletics are going to need to start doing a lot of research on how to handle it all. There is not going to be a simple quick solution.

But again, I'd like to know how you want to enforce the bathroom rule of HB2? You seem to think it's simple.

Clean and simple? What is a female to do when an obviously biological male enters the locker room shower with her and she has no legal recourse if said person is protected by law in that he can legally call himself a female?
What if that man was actually born female and looks male? Has female genitals, female chromosomes.

Who decides what makes a person male or female? Do they genital check? Blood test?

And who's brilliant idea was it for communal showers? That's insane on so many levels. And do we have sexual orientation checks in the showers too? Why can't a lesbian woman attack another woman in a shower? Why can't a gay man attack another man? I talked in the other thread too about things like Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. Baby has XY (male) chromosomes, but appears to the world as a female. Has female (outward anyway) genitals. Which shower should this person use?
09-18-2016 03:35 PM
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BucFan1244 Offline
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Post: #68
RE: SoCon Asheville Boycott
I think the only solution is to have more bathrooms. Have one bathroom designated straight male, one straight female, another one gay male, another one gay female, another one girl who says she is a guy, another one guy who says he is a girl, and another one for all the other special snowflakes.
09-18-2016 03:46 PM
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queenladybug817 Offline
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Post: #69
RE: SoCon Asheville Boycott
(09-18-2016 03:46 PM)BucFan1244 Wrote:  I think the only solution is to have more bathrooms. Have one bathroom designated straight male, one straight female, another one gay male, another one gay female, another one girl who says she is a guy, another one guy who says he is a girl, and another one for all the other special snowflakes.
Cause we saw how well that worked out with regard to special bathrooms and water fountains for specific classes of people before and all?

03-banghead
09-18-2016 03:49 PM
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BucFan1244 Offline
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Post: #70
RE: SoCon tournaments may be moved from North Carolina
I as a man now want female restrooms to have urinals installed in there since I can say I am a woman now, but I would still like the convenience of a urinal. Also in these bathrooms I request to not have any of those barriers surrounding the urinals because what is a better time to try to get me a lady then while I am taking a piss.
09-18-2016 03:49 PM
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BucFan1244 Offline
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Post: #71
RE: SoCon Asheville Boycott
(09-18-2016 03:49 PM)queenladybug817 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 03:46 PM)BucFan1244 Wrote:  I think the only solution is to have more bathrooms. Have one bathroom designated straight male, one straight female, another one gay male, another one gay female, another one girl who says she is a guy, another one guy who says he is a girl, and another one for all the other special snowflakes.
Cause we saw how well that worked out with regard to special bathrooms and water fountains for specific classes of people before and all?

03-banghead

If women want to use my restroom because they say they are a guy why can't I say I don't wont to use the same restroom as a girl posing to be a guy???
09-18-2016 03:51 PM
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queenladybug817 Offline
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Post: #72
RE: SoCon Asheville Boycott
(09-18-2016 03:51 PM)BucFan1244 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 03:49 PM)queenladybug817 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 03:46 PM)BucFan1244 Wrote:  I think the only solution is to have more bathrooms. Have one bathroom designated straight male, one straight female, another one gay male, another one gay female, another one girl who says she is a guy, another one guy who says he is a girl, and another one for all the other special snowflakes.
Cause we saw how well that worked out with regard to special bathrooms and water fountains for specific classes of people before and all?

03-banghead

If women want to use my restroom because they say they are a guy why can't I say I don't wont to use the same restroom as a girl posing to be a guy???
How do you know their gender? Especially if they use a stall. And there are devices that can allow women to pee at urinals. You gonna look and confirm? Seems if you did, you are the one that's being creepy.
09-18-2016 03:53 PM
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BucFan1244 Offline
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Post: #73
RE: SoCon Asheville Boycott
(09-18-2016 03:53 PM)queenladybug817 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 03:51 PM)BucFan1244 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 03:49 PM)queenladybug817 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 03:46 PM)BucFan1244 Wrote:  I think the only solution is to have more bathrooms. Have one bathroom designated straight male, one straight female, another one gay male, another one gay female, another one girl who says she is a guy, another one guy who says he is a girl, and another one for all the other special snowflakes.
Cause we saw how well that worked out with regard to special bathrooms and water fountains for specific classes of people before and all?

03-banghead

If women want to use my restroom because they say they are a guy why can't I say I don't wont to use the same restroom as a girl posing to be a guy???
How do you know their gender? Especially if they use a stall. And there are devices that can allow women to pee at urinals. You gonna look and confirm? Seems if you did, you are the one that's being creepy.

I can tell a tranny when I see one...
09-18-2016 03:55 PM
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queenladybug817 Offline
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Post: #74
RE: SoCon tournaments may be moved from North Carolina
(09-18-2016 03:49 PM)BucFan1244 Wrote:  I as a man now want female restrooms to have urinals installed in there since I can say I am a woman now, but I would still like the convenience of a urinal. Also in these bathrooms I request to not have any of those barriers surrounding the urinals because what is a better time to try to get me a lady then while I am taking a piss.
That's a silly argument. If the issue is safety and privacy, as to why this is a problem in the first place, why are you trying to twist it like that? Seems like a poor way to debate as well.

We should ALL have privacy in the bathroom. Gender or gender identity shouldn't matter. As a mother, I think open showers and open urinals are horrible ideas, for any child.

As for a man in the women's room. If he's not peeking in the stalls or bothering me? I have no problem with it.
09-18-2016 03:58 PM
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queenladybug817 Offline
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Post: #75
RE: SoCon tournaments may be moved from North Carolina
How many of you are aware that in many places around the world, that gender neutral multi-stall bathrooms are a common thing. And gender segregated bathrooms are a fairly recent thing anyway. It was a Victorian era concept.
09-18-2016 04:02 PM
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queenladybug817 Offline
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Post: #76
RE: SoCon Asheville Boycott
(09-18-2016 03:55 PM)BucFan1244 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 03:53 PM)queenladybug817 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 03:51 PM)BucFan1244 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 03:49 PM)queenladybug817 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 03:46 PM)BucFan1244 Wrote:  I think the only solution is to have more bathrooms. Have one bathroom designated straight male, one straight female, another one gay male, another one gay female, another one girl who says she is a guy, another one guy who says he is a girl, and another one for all the other special snowflakes.
Cause we saw how well that worked out with regard to special bathrooms and water fountains for specific classes of people before and all?

03-banghead

If women want to use my restroom because they say they are a guy why can't I say I don't wont to use the same restroom as a girl posing to be a guy???
How do you know their gender? Especially if they use a stall. And there are devices that can allow women to pee at urinals. You gonna look and confirm? Seems if you did, you are the one that's being creepy.

I can tell a tranny when I see one...
Wanna play a game? I'll post pictures and you tell me the birth gender of the person?
09-18-2016 04:03 PM
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BucFan1244 Offline
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Post: #77
RE: SoCon Asheville Boycott
(09-18-2016 04:03 PM)queenladybug817 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 03:55 PM)BucFan1244 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 03:53 PM)queenladybug817 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 03:51 PM)BucFan1244 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 03:49 PM)queenladybug817 Wrote:  Cause we saw how well that worked out with regard to special bathrooms and water fountains for specific classes of people before and all?

03-banghead

If women want to use my restroom because they say they are a guy why can't I say I don't wont to use the same restroom as a girl posing to be a guy???
How do you know their gender? Especially if they use a stall. And there are devices that can allow women to pee at urinals. You gonna look and confirm? Seems if you did, you are the one that's being creepy.

I can tell a tranny when I see one...
Wanna play a game? I'll post pictures and you tell me the birth gender of the person?

Sounds fun. Lets go
09-18-2016 04:09 PM
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queenladybug817 Offline
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Post: #78
RE: SoCon Asheville Boycott
Let me see if this posts properly. What is the gender of each person (at birth)?


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09-18-2016 04:23 PM
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BucFan1244 Offline
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RE: SoCon Asheville Boycott
(09-18-2016 04:23 PM)queenladybug817 Wrote:  Let me see if this posts properly. What is the gender of each person (at birth)?

From left to right starting with top row. Male, female, male, female, female, male
09-18-2016 04:34 PM
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queenladybug817 Offline
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Post: #80
RE: SoCon Asheville Boycott
(09-18-2016 04:34 PM)BucFan1244 Wrote:  
(09-18-2016 04:23 PM)queenladybug817 Wrote:  Let me see if this posts properly. What is the gender of each person (at birth)?

From left to right starting with top row. Male, female, male, female, female, male
You are wrong on one.
09-18-2016 04:39 PM
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