(07-06-2016 05:52 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 04:59 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 04:39 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 04:36 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 04:23 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Get a better argument because it's obvious you are clueless on this one.

Besides, I retired a few years ago from injuries received in large part from a career of firefighting, and that's WITH my #1 goal when I walked in the station each shift being that when my shift ended I went home alive and with every body part I came in with. People who came into the fire service with your attitude didn't last long. They either crippled themselves early on taking risks trying to be a hero, got the hint after being shunned by their coworkers because they were dangerous, or were fired because they refused to follow procedures.

As it was taught to me in my leadership training your priorities as an officer in the fire service are in this order: 1. Your personal safety 2. The safety of your crew 3. The safety of the general public. Nobody ever called the fire department because they did something smart so don't compound the stupidity by taking unnecessary risks.

If your primary mission is staying safe...

stay...at...home.

What is the controversy here.

Home...is safer....than a burning building. Primary mission accomplished.

What is your argument with that?

My sneaking suspicion is that he may be (or was) in a line of work closer to this particular issue than you are.

That does not exempt him from plain logic.

If your primary mission is personal safety...then going into burning buildings is not the proper method for securing that particular primary mission.

What is your main mission?
My personal safety.

How will you accomplish it?
Go through a fire, rescue a baby drowning in a whirlpool, stop an armed robber, and patrol Baghdad.

Are you just a bad personal safety planner or are you just fooling yourself about your mission?

Just trying to pin people down here on their thinking.

Your problem is you only see it in black and white because you are making a decision from a position of ignorance. While you may think that a standard house fire is dangerous but for someone like me with decades of training and experience with structural firefighting that danger is greatly lessened.

There's this groundbreaking concept called risk management assessment. It's something we do to make the decision how best to handle the incident we are sent to. It actually starts before the call comes in as you should have been conducting pre-incident surveys of your response area all along. Learn what kind of buildings you have in your area, how they are constructed, how good of a water supply you have in an area, etc. Then when the call comes in you add in the information dispatch is able to provide and you start assessing the incident while enroute to the call. When you arrive on scene while your crew is getting things set up you do a 360 degree exterior survey (if you have a good Engineer you can knock out 1/2 of it just by where he parks the apparatus) to attempt to determine the scope of the fire, identify any possible hazards, etc. As you go you shut off any utilities you can as you go to minimize risk. Once you have completed your survey you make the determination if your crew, using their protective equipment and training, can make entry in as advantageous a situation as possible. If the odds are you are going to get someone hurt making entry you bust out some windows and "fight it hard from the yard" or what we call a defensive attack. If the odds are you aren't going to get someone hurt you then you go inside. You never put yourself or your crew in a situation where you are definitely going to get someone hurt.

And if personal protection isn't the primary goal for the military then explain why we spend billions of dollars on body armor, armored vehicles, mine detection equipment, etc. and countless hours teaching our troops to low crawl, dig fox holes, build bunkers, etc.

Pretty simple, if you kill yourself doing something stupid nobody else is getting out alive either. Its like confined space rescue on a const site, rule #1 is dont go in after the guy trying to be a hero. More than likely youll die too.

(07-06-2016 06:18 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  He was a convicted felon. If he had a firearm?... he had it illegally. He had 17 prior arrests and was a ex con. He was not a choirboy at one time. It does look like he had stayed out of trouble since his release. I would think that having a firearm alone in his pocket was not grounds for the use of deadly force. I would think he would have to be in the process of reaching for it to justify that. You can clearly hear one of the officers say..."He has a gun!!!!" just before the shots were fired. Looks like either he was going for the pistol or the cop just panicked. Hard to say what happened from the videos being released.

My gut reaction...without a lot of evidence...is that these officers did exactly what their training led them to do.

One cop probably felt the gun in the pocket and announced it.....the other cop told him not to move.....the guy made some movement.....the cop shot to kill.

That doesn't mean that the guy deserved to die, or should have died, or that his death was justified. It just means that the cops should not be taken out and executed for doing what we trained them to do.

The whole incident should not have gone down the way it did.

The problem is that the policies, strategies, and training are flawed and counterproductive and need to be changed.

(07-06-2016 06:34 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 05:52 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 04:59 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 04:39 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 04:36 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  If your primary mission is staying safe...

stay...at...home.

What is the controversy here.

Home...is safer....than a burning building. Primary mission accomplished.

What is your argument with that?

My sneaking suspicion is that he may be (or was) in a line of work closer to this particular issue than you are.

That does not exempt him from plain logic.

If your primary mission is personal safety...then going into burning buildings is not the proper method for securing that particular primary mission.

What is your main mission?
My personal safety.

How will you accomplish it?
Go through a fire, rescue a baby drowning in a whirlpool, stop an armed robber, and patrol Baghdad.

Are you just a bad personal safety planner or are you just fooling yourself about your mission?

Just trying to pin people down here on their thinking.

Your problem is you only see it in black and white because you are making a decision from a position of ignorance. While you may think that a standard house fire is dangerous but for someone like me with decades of training and experience with structural firefighting that danger is greatly lessened.

There's this groundbreaking concept called risk management assessment. It's something we do to make the decision how best to handle the incident we are sent to. It actually starts before the call comes in as you should have been conducting pre-incident surveys of your response area all along. Learn what kind of buildings you have in your area, how they are constructed, how good of a water supply you have in an area, etc. Then when the call comes in you add in the information dispatch is able to provide and you start assessing the incident while enroute to the call. When you arrive on scene while your crew is getting things set up you do a 360 degree exterior survey (if you have a good Engineer you can knock out 1/2 of it just by where he parks the apparatus) to attempt to determine the scope of the fire, identify any possible hazards, etc. As you go you shut off any utilities you can as you go to minimize risk. Once you have completed your survey you make the determination if your crew, using their protective equipment and training, can make entry in as advantageous a situation as possible. If the odds are you are going to get someone hurt making entry you bust out some windows and "fight it hard from the yard" or what we call a defensive attack. If the odds are you aren't going to get someone hurt you then you go inside. You never put yourself or your crew in a situation where you are definitely going to get someone hurt.

And if personal protection isn't the primary goal for the military then explain why we spend billions of dollars on body armor, armored vehicles, mine detection equipment, etc. and countless hours teaching our troops to low crawl, dig fox holes, build bunkers, etc.

Pretty simpke, if you kill yourself doing something stupid nobody else is getting out alive either.

Seems simple enough, but when you have someone who has made a stupid statement then stubbornly digs in their heels defending it I guess it really isn't simple after all.

(07-06-2016 06:36 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Seems simple enough, but when you have someone who has made a stupid statement then stubbornly digs in their heels defending it I guess it really isn't simple after all.

It's difficult when people do all they can to try to avoid understanding the meaning of the words "primary mission".

(07-06-2016 06:34 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  Pretty simple, if you kill yourself doing something stupid nobody else is getting out alive either. Its like confined space rescue on a const site, rule #1 is dont go in after the guy trying to be a hero. More than likely youll die too.

Little Rock PD Mission
The mission of the Little Rock Police Department is to provide the citizens of Little Rock, Arkansas, with a law enforcement system that effectively integrates and utilizes Departmental, civic and community resources to protect life and property, preserve law and order and enforce State Laws and City Ordinances within the framework of the Constitution.

US Army Mission
The U.S. Army's mission is to fight and win our Nation's wars by providing prompt, sustained land dominance across the full range of military operations and spectrum of conflict in support of combatant commanders.

Dallas Fire Department Mission
Our mission is to prevent and suppress fires, educate and rescue citizens, provide emergency medical services, promote public safety and foster community relations.

None of those mention "Getting home tonight" as their primary mission. None of them mention personal safety as their mission.

Now personal safety is good. And striving for personal safety is not bad. But its not the goal. Its not the mission. Its not the purpose of the organization. Stop saying it is.

(07-06-2016 06:35 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 06:18 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  He was a convicted felon. If he had a firearm?... he had it illegally. He had 17 prior arrests and was a ex con. He was not a choirboy at one time. It does look like he had stayed out of trouble since his release. I would think that having a firearm alone in his pocket was not grounds for the use of deadly force. I would think he would have to be in the process of reaching for it to justify that. You can clearly hear one of the officers say..."He has a gun!!!!" just before the shots were fired. Looks like either he was going for the pistol or the cop just panicked. Hard to say what happened from the videos being released.

My gut reaction...without a lot of evidence...is that these officers did exactly what their training led them to do.

One cop probably felt the gun in the pocket and announced it.....the other cop told him not to move.....the guy made some movement.....the cop shot to kill.

That doesn't mean that the guy deserved to die, or should have died, or that his death was justified. It just means that the cops should not be taken out and executed for doing what we trained them to do.

The whole incident should not have gone down the way it did.

The problem is that the policies, strategies, and training are flawed and counterproductive and need to be changed.

Give em batons, funny hats, and call em Bobbies!

(07-06-2016 06:55 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 06:34 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  Pretty simple, if you kill yourself doing something stupid nobody else is getting out alive either. Its like confined space rescue on a const site, rule #1 is dont go in after the guy trying to be a hero. More than likely youll die too.

Little Rock PD Mission
The mission of the Little Rock Police Department is to provide the citizens of Little Rock, Arkansas, with a law enforcement system that effectively integrates and utilizes Departmental, civic and community resources to protect life and property, preserve law and order and enforce State Laws and City Ordinances within the framework of the Constitution.

US Army Mission
The U.S. Army's mission is to fight and win our Nation's wars by providing prompt, sustained land dominance across the full range of military operations and spectrum of conflict in support of combatant commanders.

Dallas Fire Department Mission
Our mission is to prevent and suppress fires, educate and rescue citizens, provide emergency medical services, promote public safety and foster community relations.

None of those mention "Getting home tonight" as their primary mission. None of them mention personal safety as their mission.

Now personal safety is good. And striving for personal safety is not bad. But its not the goal. Its not the mission. Its not the purpose of the organization. Stop saying it is.

Boom!


Sent from #ClutchCity using Tapatalk

(07-06-2016 06:56 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 06:35 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 06:18 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  He was a convicted felon. If he had a firearm?... he had it illegally. He had 17 prior arrests and was a ex con. He was not a choirboy at one time. It does look like he had stayed out of trouble since his release. I would think that having a firearm alone in his pocket was not grounds for the use of deadly force. I would think he would have to be in the process of reaching for it to justify that. You can clearly hear one of the officers say..."He has a gun!!!!" just before the shots were fired. Looks like either he was going for the pistol or the cop just panicked. Hard to say what happened from the videos being released.

My gut reaction...without a lot of evidence...is that these officers did exactly what their training led them to do.

One cop probably felt the gun in the pocket and announced it.....the other cop told him not to move.....the guy made some movement.....the cop shot to kill.

That doesn't mean that the guy deserved to die, or should have died, or that his death was justified. It just means that the cops should not be taken out and executed for doing what we trained them to do.

The whole incident should not have gone down the way it did.

The problem is that the policies, strategies, and training are flawed and counterproductive and need to be changed.

Give em batons, funny hats, and call em Bobbies!

The sad thing is, that these cops are probably going to face the gauntlet just for following their training. At a very minimum they are going to get an anal probing by the Feds. At worse...it could be real bad.

These things are not fair for the guy who got shot to death.....and not fair for the police officers. Stuff has to change.

(07-06-2016 06:56 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 06:35 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 06:18 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  He was a convicted felon. If he had a firearm?... he had it illegally. He had 17 prior arrests and was a ex con. He was not a choirboy at one time. It does look like he had stayed out of trouble since his release. I would think that having a firearm alone in his pocket was not grounds for the use of deadly force. I would think he would have to be in the process of reaching for it to justify that. You can clearly hear one of the officers say..."He has a gun!!!!" just before the shots were fired. Looks like either he was going for the pistol or the cop just panicked. Hard to say what happened from the videos being released.

My gut reaction...without a lot of evidence...is that these officers did exactly what their training led them to do.

One cop probably felt the gun in the pocket and announced it.....the other cop told him not to move.....the guy made some movement.....the cop shot to kill.

That doesn't mean that the guy deserved to die, or should have died, or that his death was justified. It just means that the cops should not be taken out and executed for doing what we trained them to do.

The whole incident should not have gone down the way it did.

The problem is that the policies, strategies, and training are flawed and counterproductive and need to be changed.

Give em batons, funny hats, and call em Bobbies!

If things continue as they are going you aren't going to need to give them anything because there isn't going to be anybody to give something to. Between the leftists and their lapdog media's outright hatred and every internet "expert" out there everywhere, including here, trying to tell them how to do their job the already decreasing number of people who want to pursue a career in law enforcement is going to continue to plummet. Just about everybody I know in law enforcement is retiring the day they reach minimum retirement age. Those who have other options are leaving law enforcement. I know several who left law enforcement to go overseas as contractors teaching law enforcement in the Balkans, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Just about everybody I know in law enforcement who has kids is doing everything they can to deter their kids from going into law enforcement.

This story really has legs.

Personal safety in the military, policing, firefighting, etc is a primary concern but we understand that a certain level of personal safety is lost.

But the reason we train is because personal and team safety is the most important thing, considering the mission.

(07-06-2016 04:23 PM)fsquid Wrote:  I thought after the shooting at the gay club, we wanted everyone carrying guns?

Only the good guys. Remember, they stop the bad guys with guns. It appears that a Muslim own the convenience store, so looks like this guy was the good guy.

(07-06-2016 08:34 PM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 04:23 PM)fsquid Wrote:  I thought after the shooting at the gay club, we wanted everyone carrying guns?

Only the good guys. Remember, they stop the bad guys with guns. It appears that a Muslim own the convenience store, so looks like this guy was the good guy.

Who stops the bad guys with guns? Not the libturds. How many shootings where there again in Chicago this past weekend?

(07-06-2016 09:01 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 08:34 PM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 04:23 PM)fsquid Wrote:  I thought after the shooting at the gay club, we wanted everyone carrying guns?

Only the good guys. Remember, they stop the bad guys with guns. It appears that a Muslim own the convenience store, so looks like this guy was the good guy.

Who stops the bad guys with guns? Not the libturds. How many shootings where there again in Chicago this past weekend?

By good guys with guns!

(07-06-2016 09:21 PM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 09:01 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 08:34 PM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 04:23 PM)fsquid Wrote:  I thought after the shooting at the gay club, we wanted everyone carrying guns?

Only the good guys. Remember, they stop the bad guys with guns. It appears that a Muslim own the convenience store, so looks like this guy was the good guy.

Who stops the bad guys with guns? Not the libturds. How many shootings where there again in Chicago this past weekend?

By good guys with guns!

Chiraq
year to Date
Shot & Killed: 307
Shot & Wounded: 1746
Total Shot: 2053
Total Homicides: 341

How many of those trigger pulls in Chiraq are legal gun owners? Rhetorical question of course. Would not want to upset sensibilities around here.

I just saw the other video that was released. His right arm is free and moving at his waist level at the time the officer yells that he has a gun.

If there is a gun in that pocket unless I see another video, I'm not calling for a witch hunt.

(07-06-2016 09:41 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  How many of those trigger pulls in Chiraq are legal gun owners? Rhetorical question of course. Would not want to upset sensibilities around here.

Most if not all. Prove otherwise. #goodguyswithguns

What a tragedy. Feel horrible for all involved. I'll say a prayer tonight for all involved. The policeman's families and the family of the deceased. For the life of me I'll never understand wrestling with a cop. Two of them! Put your damn hands on your head? It doesn't look good for any of them. You couldn't pay me to be a policeman today. Toughest job in our society. Just horrible.

(07-06-2016 09:55 PM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(07-06-2016 09:41 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  How many of those trigger pulls in Chiraq are legal gun owners? Rhetorical question of course. Would not want to upset sensibilities around here.

Most if not all. Prove otherwise. #goodguyswithguns

You must wear one of hose helmets to protect the short bus crowd.