(06-30-2015 09:33 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:22 AM)Hitch Wrote:  Reverence for Lee gets tough as soon as you get to the part when he took up arms against his country.

Hard to fight against your own people.

Sure, Lincoln enjoyed the terrorist acts of Sherman and Sheridan.

(06-30-2015 09:46 AM)Hitch Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:35 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:31 AM)Hitch Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:27 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:22 AM)Hitch Wrote:  Reverence for Lee gets tough as soon as you get to the part when he took up arms against his country.

No, he took up arms to defend his state and his home against an outside invasion. If you don't understand that perspective, you are missing the whole point.

Did he, or did he not lead an army against the United States of America?

Did he, or did he not view, as did most southerners of the time, his primary loyalty to his state, not to "these United States?"

Many viewed people like General Thomas ("the Rock of Chickamauga" from Virginia) as a traitor.

Trying to cleanse history of the uncomfortable truths isn't going to get you very far. Yes, the Civil War was complicated and deserving of in-depth study. Yes, it was mostly rooted in the desire to perpetuate slavery. Yes, Lee was a traitor to the United States, even if he was loyal to Virginia. Yes, the U.S. won the war but acted vengeful after the war ended. Yes, many of the systemic problems in the south can trace their roots to the end of the Civil War and the long struggle during reconstruction. Yes, the flag that is commonly referred to as the Confederate flag was co-opted by racists during the Civil Rights movement.

Yes at the time April 12, 1861 the Northern States had more slaves The 7 Southern States. So if the war was about slavery then look at Lincoln's hypocrisy !!

(06-30-2015 09:46 AM)Hitch Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:35 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:31 AM)Hitch Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:27 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:22 AM)Hitch Wrote:  Reverence for Lee gets tough as soon as you get to the part when he took up arms against his country.

No, he took up arms to defend his state and his home against an outside invasion. If you don't understand that perspective, you are missing the whole point.

Did he, or did he not lead an army against the United States of America?

Did he, or did he not view, as did most southerners of the time, his primary loyalty to his state, not to "these United States?"

Many viewed people like General Thomas ("the Rock of Chickamauga" from Virginia) as a traitor.

Trying to cleanse history of the uncomfortable truths isn't going to get you very far. Yes, the Civil War was complicated and deserving of in-depth study. Yes, it was mostly rooted in the desire to perpetuate slavery. Yes, Lee was a traitor to the United States, even if he was loyal to Virginia. Yes, the U.S. won the war but acted vengeful after the war ended. Yes, many of the systemic problems in the south can trace their roots to the end of the Civil War and the long struggle during reconstruction. Yes, the flag that is commonly referred to as the Confederate flag was co-opted by racists during the Civil Rights movement.

To many people try to imprint today's thinking on past events. That's just not a logical thing to do. Back before the war, people were states first, country second so it was only natural for Lee to defend his state. He didn't want to fight the north, but he could not fight against his own people in Virginia.

Besides, even the US didn't consider him a traitor. He was never persecuted for treason. If the US govt didn't consider him a traitor, neither do I.

(06-30-2015 10:31 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:46 AM)Hitch Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:35 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:31 AM)Hitch Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:27 AM)bullet Wrote:  No, he took up arms to defend his state and his home against an outside invasion. If you don't understand that perspective, you are missing the whole point.

Did he, or did he not lead an army against the United States of America?

Did he, or did he not view, as did most southerners of the time, his primary loyalty to his state, not to "these United States?"

Many viewed people like General Thomas ("the Rock of Chickamauga" from Virginia) as a traitor.

Trying to cleanse history of the uncomfortable truths isn't going to get you very far. Yes, the Civil War was complicated and deserving of in-depth study. Yes, it was mostly rooted in the desire to perpetuate slavery. Yes, Lee was a traitor to the United States, even if he was loyal to Virginia. Yes, the U.S. won the war but acted vengeful after the war ended. Yes, many of the systemic problems in the south can trace their roots to the end of the Civil War and the long struggle during reconstruction. Yes, the flag that is commonly referred to as the Confederate flag was co-opted by racists during the Civil Rights movement.

To many people try to imprint today's thinking on past events. That's just not a logical thing to do. Back before the war, people were states first, country second so it was only natural for Lee to defend his state. He didn't want to fight the north, but he could not fight against his own people in Virginia.

Besides, even the US didn't consider him a traitor. He was never persecuted for treason. If the US govt didn't consider him a traitor, neither do I.

Before the war people referred to These United States in plural. It was only after the war that it became The United States in singular.

(06-30-2015 10:52 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 10:31 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:46 AM)Hitch Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:35 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:31 AM)Hitch Wrote:  Did he, or did he not lead an army against the United States of America?

Did he, or did he not view, as did most southerners of the time, his primary loyalty to his state, not to "these United States?"

Many viewed people like General Thomas ("the Rock of Chickamauga" from Virginia) as a traitor.

Trying to cleanse history of the uncomfortable truths isn't going to get you very far. Yes, the Civil War was complicated and deserving of in-depth study. Yes, it was mostly rooted in the desire to perpetuate slavery. Yes, Lee was a traitor to the United States, even if he was loyal to Virginia. Yes, the U.S. won the war but acted vengeful after the war ended. Yes, many of the systemic problems in the south can trace their roots to the end of the Civil War and the long struggle during reconstruction. Yes, the flag that is commonly referred to as the Confederate flag was co-opted by racists during the Civil Rights movement.

To many people try to imprint today's thinking on past events. That's just not a logical thing to do. Back before the war, people were states first, country second so it was only natural for Lee to defend his state. He didn't want to fight the north, but he could not fight against his own people in Virginia.

Besides, even the US didn't consider him a traitor. He was never persecuted for treason. If the US govt didn't consider him a traitor, neither do I.

Before the war people referred to These United States in plural. It was only after the war that it became The United States in singular.

Yep, it went along the lines of The United States "are" before the war and then the United States "is" after the war. Which just leads back to my original point that before the war a person's state came first, before country, and why Lee's decision to support Virginia, makes sense.

(06-28-2015 09:55 AM)tigertom Wrote:  Remove the flag of the Stars and Bars, fine, from public view. So let it be said, so let it be done.

However, do not in any way shape or form attempt to denigrate the life, principles and leadership of Robert E. Lee of Virginia. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever.

Ah, the stars and bars? Like those wanting the Battle Flag removed, me thinks you need to get your "flag facts" in order.

(06-30-2015 11:45 AM)ecumbh1999 Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 09:55 AM)tigertom Wrote:  Remove the flag of the Stars and Bars, fine, from public view. So let it be said, so let it be done.

However, do not in any way shape or form attempt to denigrate the life, principles and leadership of Robert E. Lee of Virginia. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever.

Ah, the stars and bars? Like those wanting the Battle Flag removed, me thinks you need to get your "flag facts" in order.

Next they'll want to take down the Stainless Banner.

(06-30-2015 11:38 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 10:52 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 10:31 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:46 AM)Hitch Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:35 AM)bullet Wrote:  Did he, or did he not view, as did most southerners of the time, his primary loyalty to his state, not to "these United States?"

Many viewed people like General Thomas ("the Rock of Chickamauga" from Virginia) as a traitor.

Trying to cleanse history of the uncomfortable truths isn't going to get you very far. Yes, the Civil War was complicated and deserving of in-depth study. Yes, it was mostly rooted in the desire to perpetuate slavery. Yes, Lee was a traitor to the United States, even if he was loyal to Virginia. Yes, the U.S. won the war but acted vengeful after the war ended. Yes, many of the systemic problems in the south can trace their roots to the end of the Civil War and the long struggle during reconstruction. Yes, the flag that is commonly referred to as the Confederate flag was co-opted by racists during the Civil Rights movement.

To many people try to imprint today's thinking on past events. That's just not a logical thing to do. Back before the war, people were states first, country second so it was only natural for Lee to defend his state. He didn't want to fight the north, but he could not fight against his own people in Virginia.

Besides, even the US didn't consider him a traitor. He was never persecuted for treason. If the US govt didn't consider him a traitor, neither do I.

Before the war people referred to These United States in plural. It was only after the war that it became The United States in singular.

Yep, it went along the lines of The United States "are" before the war and then the United States "is" after the war. Which just leads back to my original point that before the war a person's state came first, before country, and why Lee's decision to support Virginia, makes sense.

And, Lee after being offered command of the Union forces said he could never lead an Army against his Native Virginia. Which proves your point all more clearly. Also, Lee fought a defensive war, only once fighting outside Virginia and CSA, when ordered to invade the the North.

And, even according to the constitution today and back then it was illegal for the north and Lincoln to use active duty federal troops against the south. It was only validated by the Supreme Court that only had Northern Justices that supported the north's position on it. Dubious ruling at best.

(06-30-2015 11:47 AM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 11:45 AM)ecumbh1999 Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 09:55 AM)tigertom Wrote:  Remove the flag of the Stars and Bars, fine, from public view. So let it be said, so let it be done.

However, do not in any way shape or form attempt to denigrate the life, principles and leadership of Robert E. Lee of Virginia. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever.

Ah, the stars and bars? Like those wanting the Battle Flag removed, me thinks you need to get your "flag facts" in order.

Next they'll want to take down the Stainless Banner.

You mean the one designed by William Thompson of Ohio? The flag he refers to in all those memes going around right now? What would be funny, we should start flying the actual stars and bars, they'd never catch on. Lol

(06-30-2015 10:09 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:33 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:22 AM)Hitch Wrote:  Reverence for Lee gets tough as soon as you get to the part when he took up arms against his country.

Hard to fight against your own people.

Sure, Lincoln enjoyed the terrorist acts of Sherman and Sheridan.

What do you mean by that?

(06-30-2015 12:01 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 10:09 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:33 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:22 AM)Hitch Wrote:  Reverence for Lee gets tough as soon as you get to the part when he took up arms against his country.

Hard to fight against your own people.

Sure, Lincoln enjoyed the terrorist acts of Sherman and Sheridan.

What do you mean by that?

Total war, burning, summary executions, willful neglect of command by allowing looting, rape and murder on a wide scale. Because it would negatively affect the CSA Army. No never mind children starving to death, murdered non combatants, or women.

For those of you that aren't following, the Battle Flag isn't the Stars and Bars. The Stars and Bars is the 1st National Flag of the Confederacy.

(06-30-2015 12:06 PM)ecumbh1999 Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 12:01 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 10:09 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:33 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:22 AM)Hitch Wrote:  Reverence for Lee gets tough as soon as you get to the part when he took up arms against his country.

Hard to fight against your own people.

Sure, Lincoln enjoyed the terrorist acts of Sherman and Sheridan.

What do you mean by that?

Total war, burning, summary executions, willful neglect of command by allowing looting, rape and murder on a wide scale. Because it would negatively affect the CSA Army. No never mind children starving to death, murdered non combatants, or women.

Yes, but it was justified because all southerners were and still are racists.

(06-30-2015 12:06 PM)ecumbh1999 Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 12:01 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 10:09 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:33 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:22 AM)Hitch Wrote:  Reverence for Lee gets tough as soon as you get to the part when he took up arms against his country.

Hard to fight against your own people.

Sure, Lincoln enjoyed the terrorist acts of Sherman and Sheridan.

What do you mean by that?

Total war, burning, summary executions, willful neglect of command by allowing looting, rape and murder on a wide scale. Because it would negatively affect the CSA Army. No never mind children starving to death, murdered non combatants, or women.

The only reason I bring this up is because it's of a comment made by another poster earlier in this thread.

Quote:To many people try to imprint today's thinking on past events. That's just not a logical thing to do. Back before the war, people were states first, country second so it was only natural for Lee to defend his state. He didn't want to fight the north, but he could not fight against his own people in Virginia.

Besides, even the US didn't consider him a traitor. He was never persecuted for treason. If the US govt didn't consider him a traitor, neither do I.

In the world we live in today, Sherman and Sheridan's actions towards the end of the Civil War are morally repugnant. But what those 2 did is no different than the actions the allies took in WW2 when they carpet bombed Dresden or when the U.S. dropped the nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Also, no different than what the Israelites did according to the OT when they slaughtered and killed Amorites and Canaanites (if those stories were true in the OT).

I don't t believe that mankind finally lost the stomach to engage in Total War until after the U.S. left Vietnam. If I recall correctly, our species deviated away from the concept of Total War between the Age of Enlightenment until the early 1800s when wars were only fought between pitched armies with muskets fighting in row or column formations and only during the mild weathered months. I think medieval warfare was more inclined to include peasants as casualties and the ancient world most definitely practiced Total War by killing civilians to subjugate a population.

Lee was a tremendous general who ended his career serving an awful cause.

(06-30-2015 02:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Lee was a tremendous general who ended his career serving an awful cause.

Eh, I would hope that if/when our government oversteps their bounds to the tune of tyranny, we'd have a few General Lee's in this generation to take up the "awful cause" of freedom from oppression.

(06-30-2015 10:52 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 10:31 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:46 AM)Hitch Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:35 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:31 AM)Hitch Wrote:  Did he, or did he not lead an army against the United States of America?

Did he, or did he not view, as did most southerners of the time, his primary loyalty to his state, not to "these United States?"

Many viewed people like General Thomas ("the Rock of Chickamauga" from Virginia) as a traitor.

Trying to cleanse history of the uncomfortable truths isn't going to get you very far. Yes, the Civil War was complicated and deserving of in-depth study. Yes, it was mostly rooted in the desire to perpetuate slavery. Yes, Lee was a traitor to the United States, even if he was loyal to Virginia. Yes, the U.S. won the war but acted vengeful after the war ended. Yes, many of the systemic problems in the south can trace their roots to the end of the Civil War and the long struggle during reconstruction. Yes, the flag that is commonly referred to as the Confederate flag was co-opted by racists during the Civil Rights movement.

To many people try to imprint today's thinking on past events. That's just not a logical thing to do. Back before the war, people were states first, country second so it was only natural for Lee to defend his state. He didn't want to fight the north, but he could not fight against his own people in Virginia.

Besides, even the US didn't consider him a traitor. He was never persecuted for treason. If the US govt didn't consider him a traitor, neither do I.

Before the war people referred to These United States in plural. It was only after the war that it became The United States in singular.

Not sure what you are saying with "is and are". However, the individual states precedes the Union. Per the the first battle of independence, King George signed thirteen treaties one per each colony (state ).

The Deutsch were the first to bomb civilians in WWI and WWII. So it was tit for tat. As for the A-bombing of Japan it would have been a catastrophe for the U.S. because every civilian in Japan had been trained and were ready to fight until death in case of an invasion. Actually, the two bombs SAVED thousands, if not millions of people. Get your facts right Alma.

(06-30-2015 02:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Lee was a tremendous general who ended his career serving an awful cause.

Liberty and Self governance from an oppressive Federal Govt.

A government that set the taxation Much Greater than what initiated the first war for independence from England!?

The export taxes from the cotton states were outrageous.

The North could not function without the money the south provided. Plus the North was going to bankrupt without the Southern cash cow.

The South provided 75% -80% of the Federal Budget.

(06-30-2015 02:25 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Lee was a tremendous general who ended his career serving an awful cause.

Perhaps his greatness was best illustrated after the war. He urged reconciliation. He was a rational voice at a time when irrational voices were everywhere and his word was the most respected in the South. Imagine what reconstruction would have been like had he taken the opposite viewpoint. He was a great man.