(06-28-2015 02:56 PM)Smaug Wrote:  I keep hearing this "erase" history talk.

It's easier to just ignore/don't talk about things than to deal with them.

(06-29-2015 07:05 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 02:56 PM)Smaug Wrote:  I keep hearing this "erase" history talk.

It's easier to just ignore/don't talk about things than to deal with them.

You mean how some folks don't like to talk about how that flag was used in 1961?

(06-29-2015 07:38 AM)Smaug Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 07:05 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 02:56 PM)Smaug Wrote:  I keep hearing this "erase" history talk.

It's easier to just ignore/don't talk about things than to deal with them.

You mean how some folks don't like to talk about how that flag was used in 1961?

Well, for me, that's the main reason why I don't have a flag. It's not worth the hassle to explain to people that the folks that hijacked the flag back then were idiots. Even if people would actually listen, they wouldn't care. Absolutes, etc.

RE Lee's father was a Harry "lighthorse" Lee.

Snicker

If we're going to create some fake, cleaned up American history so there's nothing uncomfortable about it for some people then we have to go way beyond Robert E Lee.

It's an intellectually fraudulent endeavor and I hope its proponents fail to gain any traction.

(06-29-2015 09:57 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  If we're going to create some fake, cleaned up American history so there's nothing uncomfortable about it for some people then we have to go way beyond Robert E Lee.

It's an intellectually fraudulent endeavor and I hope its proponents fail to gain any traction.

IMO, it won't be erased, but glossed over, etc.

(06-29-2015 10:10 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 09:57 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  If we're going to create some fake, cleaned up American history so there's nothing uncomfortable about it for some people then we have to go way beyond Robert E Lee.

It's an intellectually fraudulent endeavor and I hope its proponents fail to gain any traction.

IMO, it won't be erased, but glossed over, etc.

I do not have your confidence in it only being glossed over. I think we are getting close to the book burning stage. Harmful things must be destroyed!

(06-28-2015 09:55 AM)tigertom Wrote:  Remove the flag of the Stars and Bars, fine, from public view. So let it be said, so let it be done.

However, do not in any way shape or form attempt to denigrate the life, principles and leadership of Robert E. Lee of Virginia. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever.

By the time the "progressive" fever has broken here in Amerika...this honorable man's remains will be disentered.

Michelle Obama will feel proud of her country for the...1st time.

(06-29-2015 09:40 AM)shere khan Wrote:  RE Lee's father was a Harry "lighthorse" Lee.

Snicker

And that nickname was given to a PSU and Army HOF halfback!

http://www.footballfoundation.org/Progra...x?id=20044

(06-29-2015 09:40 AM)shere khan Wrote:  RE Lee's father was a Harry "lighthorse" Lee.

Snicker

Actually it was Henry "Lighthorse Harry" Lee III.

We are all still paying a very high price for Brown vs. Board of Ed.

(06-29-2015 10:11 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  We are all still paying a very high price for Brown vs. Board of Ed.

No kidding. Good private schools are expensive these days.

Reverence for Lee gets tough as soon as you get to the part when he took up arms against his country.

(06-30-2015 09:22 AM)Hitch Wrote:  Reverence for Lee gets tough as soon as you get to the part when he took up arms against his country.

No, he took up arms to defend his state and his home against an outside invasion. If you don't understand that perspective, you are missing the whole point.

And no one did anywhere near as much to heal the wounds and reunite the country as Robert E. Lee. He had great influence in the south.

(06-30-2015 09:27 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:22 AM)Hitch Wrote:  Reverence for Lee gets tough as soon as you get to the part when he took up arms against his country.

No, he took up arms to defend his state and his home against an outside invasion. If you don't understand that perspective, you are missing the whole point.

Did he, or did he not lead an army against the United States of America?

In the days after the Civil War, a Black man went up to the communion rail in Lee's church. The attendees were stunned and stayed in their seats. That was until General Lee got up and took communion not far from the Black man. The rest of the church then followed his lead.

(06-30-2015 09:22 AM)Hitch Wrote:  Reverence for Lee gets tough as soon as you get to the part when he took up arms against his country.

Hard to fight against your own people.

(06-30-2015 09:31 AM)Hitch Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:27 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:22 AM)Hitch Wrote:  Reverence for Lee gets tough as soon as you get to the part when he took up arms against his country.

No, he took up arms to defend his state and his home against an outside invasion. If you don't understand that perspective, you are missing the whole point.

Did he, or did he not lead an army against the United States of America?

Did he, or did he not view, as did most southerners of the time, his primary loyalty to his state, not to "these United States?"

Many viewed people like General Thomas ("the Rock of Chickamauga" from Virginia) as a traitor.

(06-30-2015 09:35 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:31 AM)Hitch Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:27 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 09:22 AM)Hitch Wrote:  Reverence for Lee gets tough as soon as you get to the part when he took up arms against his country.

No, he took up arms to defend his state and his home against an outside invasion. If you don't understand that perspective, you are missing the whole point.

Did he, or did he not lead an army against the United States of America?

Did he, or did he not view, as did most southerners of the time, his primary loyalty to his state, not to "these United States?"

Many viewed people like General Thomas ("the Rock of Chickamauga" from Virginia) as a traitor.

Trying to cleanse history of the uncomfortable truths isn't going to get you very far. Yes, the Civil War was complicated and deserving of in-depth study. Yes, it was mostly rooted in the desire to perpetuate slavery. Yes, Lee was a traitor to the United States, even if he was loyal to Virginia. Yes, the U.S. won the war but acted vengeful after the war ended. Yes, many of the systemic problems in the south can trace their roots to the end of the Civil War and the long struggle during reconstruction. Yes, the flag that is commonly referred to as the Confederate flag was co-opted by racists during the Civil Rights movement.

Either Lincoln killed the citizens of the nation he swore to protect; or the Confederacy was it's own legally separate nation that he declared war against. Since Lincoln himself never conceded the later point, then that must mean that he ordered the murder of the citizens of his own country.

Either way, Lee was correct. Either Lee was a citizen of a separate country and bound by duty to defend it.

Or Lee was defending his home state against an illegal invasion from other states.

Despite imprisoning Jefferson Davis for years, the Federal courts were unable to actually bring any substantial charges against him. If the declared leader of the "rebellion" can't even be brought to trail for treason because he didn't violate the actual laws of the land; how can anyone else be guilty of wrongdoing?