Eigen, I'm on my mobile so it's hard to quote you easily, but thank you for the response that wasn't rude or snarky, as many of mine have been. That being said, neither you nor I know whether or not a player has attempted to bring up this in the past either. For all we know, it has happened, and the coach refused to change. If that's the case, a lawsuit is the option to take.

Also, let's not mince words. He simply changes it to a moment of silence and he's in the clear. It's not exactly some egregious change people want him to make.

what if the coach started each "prayer" like this,

"I pray who whomever god each child here worships, that he may keep him safe, and if a particular child does not follow a certain religion, I wish you stay safe" lol

(06-01-2015 02:40 PM)EagleRockCafe Wrote:  

Unreal...

Quote:The University of Toledo football program has been violating the Constitution with pregame prayers, according to the Freedom From Religion Foundation.

The group, which serves as a “voice for freethought,” claimed that Head Coach Matt Campbell committed a “serious and flagrant violation of the First Amendment” when he led the team in a prayer before a 2012 game against Bowling Green.

The complaint stems from a video posted to the university’s YouTube page which features footage from a GoPro mobile camera that was mounted on the helmet of then-kicker Jeremiah Detmer.

The video shows Coach Campbell telling the team “I’m going to say this: Every one of us has so much to be thankful for. A great night to play football, play with your brothers, OK? What an opportunity. Let’s be grateful for it.”

At that, he takes a knee and the team begins to recite the Lord’s Prayer.

According to the foundation, this sort of activity is unacceptable, and results in players feeling “huge pressure to participate in the prayer” in order to “please their coach or curry favor.”

http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6540

They are correct. If the team elects to pray before a game that's fine but a member of the faculty cannot lead them in prayer.

Been there done that.

(06-02-2015 01:17 PM)NCeagle Wrote:  what if the coach started each "prayer" like this,

"I pray who whomever god each child here worships, that he may keep him safe, and if a particular child does not follow a certain religion, I wish you stay safe" lol

Why not just do the logical and constitutionally sound route instead of silly options like this? Have a moment of silence, leave it at that, and if students wish to pray they can. It's such a simple fix, but somehow the atheists are to blame?

(06-02-2015 01:32 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(06-02-2015 01:17 PM)NCeagle Wrote:  what if the coach started each "prayer" like this,

"I pray who whomever god each child here worships, that he may keep him safe, and if a particular child does not follow a certain religion, I wish you stay safe" lol

Why not just do the logical and constitutionally sound route instead of silly options like this? Have a moment of silence, leave it at that, and if students wish to pray they can. It's such a simple fix, but somehow the atheists are to blame?

I wasn't proposing this as an actual solution. just a fun hypothetical scenario.

What if it's that Harley-riding ex/current Louisville coach leading the prayer?

(06-02-2015 01:32 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(06-02-2015 01:17 PM)NCeagle Wrote:  what if the coach started each "prayer" like this,

"I pray who whomever god each child here worships, that he may keep him safe, and if a particular child does not follow a certain religion, I wish you stay safe" lol

Why not just do the logical and constitutionally sound route instead of silly options like this? Have a moment of silence, leave it at that, and if students wish to pray they can. It's such a simple fix, but somehow the atheists are to blame?

That's what I said they did in middle TN. Then the FFR morons still got outraged b/c the cheerleaders, students, fans, etc all prayed the Lord's Prayer out loud.

Similar instance of liberals trying to force their stupid way on people - a few years ago in Tupelo, a local high school decided to forgo a prom b/c some lesbian girl was going to bring another girl. Some liberal gay rights outfit stepped in and got a court to force them to have one and oh, how excited the left was to be able to force that on people who didn't want it. So, all the other parents went offsite to a country club and had a private party similar to a prom, but the lesbians weren't invited. The beauty of it all -- wasn't a damn thing any liberal could do about that.

(06-02-2015 01:41 PM)MemphisTiger15 Wrote:  

(06-02-2015 01:32 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(06-02-2015 01:17 PM)NCeagle Wrote:  what if the coach started each "prayer" like this,

"I pray who whomever god each child here worships, that he may keep him safe, and if a particular child does not follow a certain religion, I wish you stay safe" lol

Why not just do the logical and constitutionally sound route instead of silly options like this? Have a moment of silence, leave it at that, and if students wish to pray they can. It's such a simple fix, but somehow the atheists are to blame?

That's what I said they did in middle TN. Then the FFR morons still got outraged b/c the cheerleaders, students, fans, etc all prayed the Lord's Prayer out loud.

Similar instance of liberals trying to force their stupid way on people - a few years ago in Tupelo, a local high school decided to forgo a prom b/c some lesbian girl was going to bring another girl. Some liberal gay rights outfit stepped in and got a court to force them to have one and oh, how excited the left was to be able to force that on people who didn't want it. So, all the other parents went offsite to a country club and had a private party similar to a prom, but the lesbians weren't invited. The beauty of it all -- wasn't a damn thing any liberal could do about that.

All of that because a girl wanted to bring her girlfriend to prom? Who would have been hurt by the fact that the girl brought a same sex date? Same if it was 2 boys. Who would have been hurt by it?

(06-01-2015 02:42 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  This is why, even when I was an atheist, I truly hated being grouped in with miserable pricks like this.

People like this exist everywhere, unfortunately. Government complicates things when it comes to religion, but I think we can all agree that those spewing hatred and disdain for everyone but those who think the way they do aren't exactly the most moral type of people.

Can we all just agree that the best solution here is to make sure Toledo stays at a competitive disadvantage to NIU? Frankly I hope they keep praying as it hasn't worked too well for the past five or so years.

(06-02-2015 02:24 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(06-02-2015 01:41 PM)MemphisTiger15 Wrote:  

(06-02-2015 01:32 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(06-02-2015 01:17 PM)NCeagle Wrote:  what if the coach started each "prayer" like this,

"I pray who whomever god each child here worships, that he may keep him safe, and if a particular child does not follow a certain religion, I wish you stay safe" lol

Why not just do the logical and constitutionally sound route instead of silly options like this? Have a moment of silence, leave it at that, and if students wish to pray they can. It's such a simple fix, but somehow the atheists are to blame?

That's what I said they did in middle TN. Then the FFR morons still got outraged b/c the cheerleaders, students, fans, etc all prayed the Lord's Prayer out loud.

Similar instance of liberals trying to force their stupid way on people - a few years ago in Tupelo, a local high school decided to forgo a prom b/c some lesbian girl was going to bring another girl. Some liberal gay rights outfit stepped in and got a court to force them to have one and oh, how excited the left was to be able to force that on people who didn't want it. So, all the other parents went offsite to a country club and had a private party similar to a prom, but the lesbians weren't invited. The beauty of it all -- wasn't a damn thing any liberal could do about that.

All of that because a girl wanted to bring her girlfriend to prom? Who would have been hurt by the fact that the girl brought a same sex date? Same if it was 2 boys. Who would have been hurt by it?

Wow, I can't agree more. It almost reads like an onion article, satirizing an ignorant conservative who doesn't realize this is the exact sort of reaction every educated adult finds ludicrous and laughs at. How anyone has the energy to care so much to cancel normal prom, and set up a separate, private prom, just to exclude a girl who wishes to bring a girl is beyond me.

It's literally not affecting the other students at all, in any capacity, yet he thinks reacting like that was forced upon them? Might as well blame those colored folks for getting in front of the firehoses in Birmingham.

Not too mention, I think anyone who has spent any time reading the New Testament would agree that Jesus would be ashamed of those self-professed Christians taking part in that. I wish there was a hell, because those sorts of people would be in for a treat.

^ That just goes to show you -- there are bigots and crazies in every walk of life. No matter atheist, Christian, Jew, Muslim, whatever. There are always crazies. You have to figure out the best way to deal with them... Whether it's legalistically or forcefully... It's never a pretty sight when the crazies come out yelling and screaming.

Legal experts say UT’s Campbell erred with prayer

Quote:“The coach has a lot of power over the players, and they know that,” Haynes said. “He’s like the boss, and people want to please the boss.”

The practice of praying before or after games is not unique to Toledo. Many football teams at public high schools and public universities pray, though Mr. Friedman said the commonality of prayer in football likely makes no difference.

In the circumstances shown in the video, Friedman said it was evident that Campbell was speaking as the coach, not in private. Even if the majority of people are not offended by the prayer, Friedman said he believes it is not protected by the First Amendment.

“It’s really a question of whether they’re speaking on behalf of the university or they're speaking in their private capacity,” Mr. Friedman said. “Here, it’s pretty clear [Campbell] is not speaking in his private capacity.”

(06-03-2015 08:56 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Legal experts say UT’s Campbell erred with prayer

Quote:“The coach has a lot of power over the players, and they know that,” Haynes said. “He’s like the boss, and people want to please the boss.”

The practice of praying before or after games is not unique to Toledo. Many football teams at public high schools and public universities pray, though Mr. Friedman said the commonality of prayer in football likely makes no difference.

In the circumstances shown in the video, Friedman said it was evident that Campbell was speaking as the coach, not in private. Even if the majority of people are not offended by the prayer, Friedman said he believes it is not protected by the First Amendment.

“It’s really a question of whether they’re speaking on behalf of the university or they're speaking in their private capacity,” Mr. Friedman said. “Here, it’s pretty clear [Campbell] is not speaking in his private capacity.”

If the coach, from now on, said he was speaking from "his private capacity", would that be ok with liberals with regard to the prayer?

(06-03-2015 09:47 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-03-2015 08:56 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Legal experts say UT’s Campbell erred with prayer

Quote:“The coach has a lot of power over the players, and they know that,” Haynes said. “He’s like the boss, and people want to please the boss.”

The practice of praying before or after games is not unique to Toledo. Many football teams at public high schools and public universities pray, though Mr. Friedman said the commonality of prayer in football likely makes no difference.

In the circumstances shown in the video, Friedman said it was evident that Campbell was speaking as the coach, not in private. Even if the majority of people are not offended by the prayer, Friedman said he believes it is not protected by the First Amendment.

“It’s really a question of whether they’re speaking on behalf of the university or they're speaking in their private capacity,” Mr. Friedman said. “Here, it’s pretty clear [Campbell] is not speaking in his private capacity.”

If the coach, from now on, said he was speaking from "his private capacity", would that be ok with liberals with regard to the prayer?

I'm not a liberal, but I find it surprising that people are against the separation of church and state. It's fleshed out in the constitution and should be adhered to. This nation was NOT founded on Judeo Christian values. It was the first truly secular gov't in the world. It took the notion that people need to kowtow to their "betters" because God put these people in authority because of his will. People took the stories of the bible from Judges, 1&2 Samuel and 1&2 Kings to justify the "right of kings", and that carried thru much of history from the bronze age thru the age of enlightenment when people began to think differently. However, it wasn't until the U.S. came into being where a country rejected the notion that God made certain men rulers over others via a birthright.

Frankly, I'm surprised that people don't seem to get this.

(06-03-2015 09:47 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-03-2015 08:56 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Legal experts say UT’s Campbell erred with prayer

Quote:“The coach has a lot of power over the players, and they know that,” Haynes said. “He’s like the boss, and people want to please the boss.”

The practice of praying before or after games is not unique to Toledo. Many football teams at public high schools and public universities pray, though Mr. Friedman said the commonality of prayer in football likely makes no difference.

In the circumstances shown in the video, Friedman said it was evident that Campbell was speaking as the coach, not in private. Even if the majority of people are not offended by the prayer, Friedman said he believes it is not protected by the First Amendment.

“It’s really a question of whether they’re speaking on behalf of the university or they're speaking in their private capacity,” Mr. Friedman said. “Here, it’s pretty clear [Campbell] is not speaking in his private capacity.”

If the coach, from now on, said he was speaking from "his private capacity", would that be ok with liberals with regard to the prayer?

This is also a libertarian issue, for those libertarians who understand the ideology and follow it fully, and not just when they find it convenient.

(06-03-2015 09:56 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(06-03-2015 09:47 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-03-2015 08:56 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Legal experts say UT’s Campbell erred with prayer

Quote:“The coach has a lot of power over the players, and they know that,” Haynes said. “He’s like the boss, and people want to please the boss.”

The practice of praying before or after games is not unique to Toledo. Many football teams at public high schools and public universities pray, though Mr. Friedman said the commonality of prayer in football likely makes no difference.

In the circumstances shown in the video, Friedman said it was evident that Campbell was speaking as the coach, not in private. Even if the majority of people are not offended by the prayer, Friedman said he believes it is not protected by the First Amendment.

“It’s really a question of whether they’re speaking on behalf of the university or they're speaking in their private capacity,” Mr. Friedman said. “Here, it’s pretty clear [Campbell] is not speaking in his private capacity.”

If the coach, from now on, said he was speaking from "his private capacity", would that be ok with liberals with regard to the prayer?

This is also a libertarian issue, for those libertarians who understand the ideology and follow it fully, and not just when they find it convenient.

So, would it be ok? I mean from the quote that seemed to be the issue. I was just curious. My guess is people would still complain.

(06-03-2015 10:00 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-03-2015 09:56 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(06-03-2015 09:47 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-03-2015 08:56 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Legal experts say UT’s Campbell erred with prayer

Quote:“The coach has a lot of power over the players, and they know that,” Haynes said. “He’s like the boss, and people want to please the boss.”

The practice of praying before or after games is not unique to Toledo. Many football teams at public high schools and public universities pray, though Mr. Friedman said the commonality of prayer in football likely makes no difference.

In the circumstances shown in the video, Friedman said it was evident that Campbell was speaking as the coach, not in private. Even if the majority of people are not offended by the prayer, Friedman said he believes it is not protected by the First Amendment.

“It’s really a question of whether they’re speaking on behalf of the university or they're speaking in their private capacity,” Mr. Friedman said. “Here, it’s pretty clear [Campbell] is not speaking in his private capacity.”

If the coach, from now on, said he was speaking from "his private capacity", would that be ok with liberals with regard to the prayer?

This is also a libertarian issue, for those libertarians who understand the ideology and follow it fully, and not just when they find it convenient.

So, would it be ok? I mean from the quote that seemed to be the issue. I was just curious. My guess is people would still complain.

Of course it wouldn't be ok, he's still their coach, on their field, leading his team, working in his capacity as a coach. A teacher/coach can't just say 'I'm acting in a private capacity' in front of the students and remove themselves from the responsibilities their position entails, and the fact you don't understand this would be funny if you weren't serious.

(06-03-2015 09:47 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-03-2015 08:56 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Legal experts say UT’s Campbell erred with prayer

Quote:“The coach has a lot of power over the players, and they know that,” Haynes said. “He’s like the boss, and people want to please the boss.”

The practice of praying before or after games is not unique to Toledo. Many football teams at public high schools and public universities pray, though Mr. Friedman said the commonality of prayer in football likely makes no difference.

In the circumstances shown in the video, Friedman said it was evident that Campbell was speaking as the coach, not in private. Even if the majority of people are not offended by the prayer, Friedman said he believes it is not protected by the First Amendment.

“It’s really a question of whether they’re speaking on behalf of the university or they're speaking in their private capacity,” Mr. Friedman said. “Here, it’s pretty clear [Campbell] is not speaking in his private capacity.”

If the coach, from now on, said he was speaking from "his private capacity", would that be ok with liberals with regard to the prayer?

If he were acting in a private capacity, he'd bow his head in his office and recite the prayer quietly to himself or keep it in his head.

This has nothing to do with liberals.