(03-30-2014 03:04 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(03-30-2014 02:40 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(03-30-2014 02:08 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(03-29-2014 06:29 PM)RaiderATO Wrote:  

(03-29-2014 06:19 PM)john01992 Wrote:  you want to put gun stats in perspective? ok.......

Firearms were used in 19,392 suicides in the U.S. in 2010, constituting almost 62% of all gun deaths

We should make suicide illegal.

I am my own property. I should be able to do whatever I wish with my property as long as I harm no one else. I hate that anyone would take their life..but..I am not going to stop them from doing it.

Suicides most certainly harm other people. Especially if they don't want to die alone.

Murder is not suicide..but..I agree this trend of killing someone and then committing suicide is disturbing. I wish there was an easy solution to that.

There are no easy solutions. Society, in looking for easy solutions, makes things worse. Just like legalization of drugs. How does that make things better.

(03-31-2014 08:19 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(03-30-2014 01:00 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-30-2014 12:20 PM)dcCid Wrote:  

(03-29-2014 07:28 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-29-2014 06:19 PM)john01992 Wrote:  you want to put gun stats in perspective? ok.......

Firearms were used in 19,392 suicides in the U.S. in 2010, constituting almost 62% of all gun deaths

1600 people have jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge. Can't stop what a person will do to himself.

The difference is they decided to take their own life, they did not have someone else decide to take it from them.

You do know what suicide is, correct?

You know if guns were outlawed that number would go down,

there are some pretty compelling examples that show a correlation between suicide rates when suicide options become limited.

(03-31-2014 08:51 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 08:19 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(03-30-2014 01:00 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-30-2014 12:20 PM)dcCid Wrote:  

(03-29-2014 07:28 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  1600 people have jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge. Can't stop what a person will do to himself.

The difference is they decided to take their own life, they did not have someone else decide to take it from them.

You do know what suicide is, correct?

You know if guns were outlawed that number would go down,

there are some pretty compelling examples that show a correlation between suicide rates when suicide options become limited.

Such as? Or is this another topic that the only compelling examples are in your head.

(03-31-2014 08:56 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 08:51 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 08:19 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(03-30-2014 01:00 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-30-2014 12:20 PM)dcCid Wrote:  The difference is they decided to take their own life, they did not have someone else decide to take it from them.

You do know what suicide is, correct?

You know if guns were outlawed that number would go down,

there are some pretty compelling examples that show a correlation between suicide rates when suicide options become limited.

Such as? Or is this another topic that the only compelling examples are in your head.

educate yourself you dumb f**k

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stru...nt-suicide

and because I know some of yall are not gonna bother to read a link:

In London, when sticking one's head in an oven in a coal gas oven was the preferred method of suicide, almost 2,500 people annually took this route. Poetry lovers know that Sylvia Plath chose this end, carefully placing a towel under the door to protect her children asleep in the next room. The oven-suicide method accounted for half the suicides in the UK. When the British government phased out coal gas for less lethal natural gas ovens, the suicide rate dropped by a third.

Anderson notes another example of in Northwest Washington State between the Ellington and Taft bridges. Ellington, known as the "suicide bridge" attracted more jumpers. After three people jumped to their deaths in a 10-day period, a suicide barrier was erected. People expected the jumpers to migrate to the Taft bridge to leap, but they didn't. A study conducted five years later that the suicide rate dropped by 50% - the amount that typically jumped from the Ellington Bridge. Why didn't they just jump from the Taft? We don't know precisely, but the Taft bridge has a concrete railing that is chest-high on an average man. For someone at my height (5'1") I'd need a trampoline to jump from that bridge. The decrease seems to occur because of a simple change in environment. Jumping from either bridge became more difficult, so fewer people jumped.

sorry to be a prick but i grew up an hour away from cornell which is one of the textbook examples of this issue. so of course it is gonna piss me off when some uneducated hick is accusing me of making **** up.

(03-29-2014 06:19 PM)john01992 Wrote:  you want to put gun stats in perspective? ok.......

Firearms were used in 19,392 suicides in the U.S. in 2010, constituting almost 62% of all gun deaths

So between suicides and gang violence, guns really don't account for many deaths... Thanks for the stats, puts gun violence in even better perspective...

People contemplating suicide will kill, or attempt to kill themselves with or without guns. Knives for the wrist, jumping from heights, stepping in front of moving vehicles or trains, pills, and the list goes on.

Gang members SHOULD be treated like terrorists.

(03-31-2014 09:00 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 08:56 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 08:51 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 08:19 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(03-30-2014 01:00 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  You do know what suicide is, correct?

You know if guns were outlawed that number would go down,

there are some pretty compelling examples that show a correlation between suicide rates when suicide options become limited.

Such as? Or is this another topic that the only compelling examples are in your head.

educate yourself you dumb f**k

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stru...nt-suicide

All this says is that the way people kill themselves is strange. so go sit in the corner, boy, and keep it to yourself.

(03-31-2014 09:07 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 09:00 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 08:56 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 08:51 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 08:19 AM)gdunn Wrote:  You know if guns were outlawed that number would go down,

there are some pretty compelling examples that show a correlation between suicide rates when suicide options become limited.

Such as? Or is this another topic that the only compelling examples are in your head.

educate yourself you dumb f**k

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stru...nt-suicide

All this says is that the way people kill themselves is strange. so go sit in the corner, boy, and keep it to yourself.

wow...

and i didn't think you could sink any lower?

despite calling me out for making **** up and providing a very valid link that includes two examples for ya.....examples that multiple academia's have been using to study this issue.....

you completely blow it off......

not surprised that you are so dumb. you literally refuse to listen to any logic information if it disagrees with your personal agenda.

(03-31-2014 04:20 AM)I45owl Wrote:  

(03-30-2014 01:33 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  What we need to do is twofold:
1. Focus on things that would combat the gang/convicted felon gun violence.
2. Address the issues underlying suicide that we share with other countries with comparable suicide rates.

I absolutely agree on both of these points. Further, I think we'd also agree on the utilitarian argument of whether it's worth sacrificing gun ownership rights to affect change in suicide (no).
I think what this does do is provide an opportunity to address point #2 that if you are facing a crisis or someone in your family is facing a crisis, it may be a good idea to voluntarily surrender your guns to a loved one or trusted friend, or, in the absence of that, a trusted community resource for the duration of said crisis. It may be that having suicide hotlines provide that advice could make a big impact.

I think there's some common ground here.

I would have some disagreement with your analysis that precedes that, on a couple of points.

One, as far as discrepancies counting suicides, I would expect some variation form country to country, but given that the comparables posted are all advanced western European or European-based societies, and about half are further UK-based, I wouldn't expect any massive difference in definition, nor would I expect any difference to trend uniformly in one direction. I think it's a fair presumption that 95% of what's suicide in any country on that list is going to be suicide in any other, and that's vastly different from the infant mortality statistics to which you liken it.

Two, as you probably know, I am always skeptical of academic study results. As one who has published a few myself, I know that 1) nobody does an academic study without having a dog in the fight, 2) if a study requires funding, absolutely nobody funds a study without having a rather large dog in the fight, and 3) you can rig data to produce most any result you want, and if can't rig one set of data, you can always throw it away and go find another set that you can rig. I am more interested in how transparent the methodology and assumptions are than what the stated results are, and I have not read the studies you reference so I can't answer that.

What I'm saying is that I wouldn't trust a study more than the macro numbers. But again, perhaps the more important point would be to explore the common ground.

(03-31-2014 09:07 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(03-29-2014 06:19 PM)john01992 Wrote:  you want to put gun stats in perspective? ok.......

Firearms were used in 19,392 suicides in the U.S. in 2010, constituting almost 62% of all gun deaths

So between suicides and gang violence, guns really don't account for many deaths... Thanks for the stats, puts gun violence in even better perspective...

People contemplating suicide will kill, or attempt to kill themselves with or without guns. Knives for the wrist, jumping from heights, stepping in front of moving vehicles or trains, pills, and the list goes on.

Gang members SHOULD be treated like terrorists.

not using this to push gun control. if we are gonna be talking about putting gun stats in perspective.....you can't ignore the suicide aspect of it.

(03-31-2014 09:04 AM)john01992 Wrote:  and because I know some of yall are not gonna bother to read a link:

In London, when sticking one's head in an oven in a coal gas oven was the preferred method of suicide, almost 2,500 people annually took this route. Poetry lovers know that Sylvia Plath chose this end, carefully placing a towel under the door to protect her children asleep in the next room. The oven-suicide method accounted for half the suicides in the UK. When the British government phased out coal gas for less lethal natural gas ovens, the suicide rate dropped by a third.

Anderson notes another example of in Northwest Washington State between the Ellington and Taft bridges. Ellington, known as the "suicide bridge" attracted more jumpers. After three people jumped to their deaths in a 10-day period, a suicide barrier was erected. People expected the jumpers to migrate to the Taft bridge to leap, but they didn't. A study conducted five years later that the suicide rate dropped by 50% - the amount that typically jumped from the Ellington Bridge. Why didn't they just jump from the Taft? We don't know precisely, but the Taft bridge has a concrete railing that is chest-high on an average man. For someone at my height (5'1") I'd need a trampoline to jump from that bridge. The decrease seems to occur because of a simple change in environment. Jumping from either bridge became more difficult, so fewer people jumped.

I see what you're saying, but as far as guns in America go, I'm not too sure it would decrease suicides very much. We have knives, narcotics, cars, trucks, trains, bridges, exhaust pipes, and the list goes on for ways to kill yourself.

If anyone is going to discuss guns in America, it should be on hand guns mainly.
Lot more deaths from them. Don't think even that should be a matter of
conjecture though. It's people, not guns.

(03-31-2014 09:24 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 09:04 AM)john01992 Wrote:  and because I know some of yall are not gonna bother to read a link:

In London, when sticking one's head in an oven in a coal gas oven was the preferred method of suicide, almost 2,500 people annually took this route. Poetry lovers know that Sylvia Plath chose this end, carefully placing a towel under the door to protect her children asleep in the next room. The oven-suicide method accounted for half the suicides in the UK. When the British government phased out coal gas for less lethal natural gas ovens, the suicide rate dropped by a third.

Anderson notes another example of in Northwest Washington State between the Ellington and Taft bridges. Ellington, known as the "suicide bridge" attracted more jumpers. After three people jumped to their deaths in a 10-day period, a suicide barrier was erected. People expected the jumpers to migrate to the Taft bridge to leap, but they didn't. A study conducted five years later that the suicide rate dropped by 50% - the amount that typically jumped from the Ellington Bridge. Why didn't they just jump from the Taft? We don't know precisely, but the Taft bridge has a concrete railing that is chest-high on an average man. For someone at my height (5'1") I'd need a trampoline to jump from that bridge. The decrease seems to occur because of a simple change in environment. Jumping from either bridge became more difficult, so fewer people jumped.

I see what you're saying, but as far as guns in America go, I'm not too sure it would decrease suicides very much. We have knives, narcotics, cars, trucks, trains, bridges, exhaust pipes, and the list goes on for ways to kill yourself.

yeah i get where you are coming from. but just to put things in perspective......

Our TOTAL suicide rate is pretty much in line with other countries, including several with very low rates of gun deaths overall. Rates of suicide per 100,000 people:

Belgium - 17.0
Finland - 16.0
France - 14.7
Austria 12.8
US - 12.0
Norway - 11.9
UK - 11.8
New Zealand - 11.5
Canada - 11.5
Australia - 10.0

just an FYI, finland who is 2nd on this list ranks 4th in the world for gun ownership.

(03-31-2014 09:12 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 09:07 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 09:00 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 08:56 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 08:51 AM)john01992 Wrote:  there are some pretty compelling examples that show a correlation between suicide rates when suicide options become limited.

Such as? Or is this another topic that the only compelling examples are in your head.

educate yourself you dumb f**k

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stru...nt-suicide

All this says is that the way people kill themselves is strange. so go sit in the corner, boy, and keep it to yourself.

wow...

and i didn't think you could sink any lower?

despite calling me out for making **** up and providing a very valid link that includes two examples for ya.....examples that multiple academia's have been using to study this issue.....

you completely blow it off......

not surprised that you are so dumb. you literally refuse to listen to any logic information if it disagrees with your personal agenda.

Since when have "suicide options become limited", you talk sh!t, but it means nothing. I mean, REALY.

Quote:there are some pretty compelling examples that show a correlation between suicide rates when suicide options become limited.

Are you a coona$s?

How do you know the rates go down if options are limited? Are they reviving dead people and asking? Are they asking those who've contemplated it? Are they asking those who've attempted and failed?

Trust me.. The "rates" are skewed..

(03-31-2014 10:55 AM)gdunn Wrote:  How do you know the rates go down if options are limited? Are they reviving dead people and asking? Are they asking those who've contemplated it? Are they asking those who've attempted and failed?

Trust me.. The "rates" are skewed..

guess someone didn't read the last page of this thread.....

(03-31-2014 11:00 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-31-2014 10:55 AM)gdunn Wrote:  How do you know the rates go down if options are limited? Are they reviving dead people and asking? Are they asking those who've contemplated it? Are they asking those who've attempted and failed?

Trust me.. The "rates" are skewed..

guess someone didn't read the last page of this thread.....

As someone who once had a barrel in their mouth, I don't care to read it.

But your theory is, well barriers are put up, no one jumped it was a success.. You can't count it as a success. People are going to find a way to kill themselves, seek help, or chicken out. I'm the last two.

(03-31-2014 10:20 AM)john01992 Wrote:  Our TOTAL suicide rate is pretty much in line with other countries, including several with very low rates of gun deaths overall. Rates of suicide per 100,000 people:

Belgium - 17.0
Finland - 16.0
France - 14.7
Austria 12.8
US - 12.0
Norway - 11.9
UK - 11.8
New Zealand - 11.5
Canada - 11.5
Australia - 10.0

just an FYI, finland who is 2nd on this list ranks 4th in the world for gun ownership.

Sweden ranks high for gun ownership and they score better than the US

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...icide_rate

Japan has virtually no private gun owners yet they score #10 on the suicide list. The US is #33.