(03-12-2014 09:08 AM)Owl25 Wrote:  SMU had so many of the same issues that we do on the men's basketball side. They hired a pseudo name coach in Matt Doherty, that was very similar to our Braun hiring. Didn't work. So what did the university and alumni do? They went out and got Larry Brown, making my Jeff Van Gundy at Rice pipe dream almost seem plausible. :) Couple that with getting in a better conference, and voila...back to the top 25. A great coach can overcome even the conference issues. Look at all the teams that have come out of the woodwork over the last 5+ years. The George Masons of the world, Creighton, etc. Basketball is a sport where if you can assemble a solid team with a great coach, you have a shot at beating almost anyone on a night when your shots fall. The Coach is the single most important piece.

All of this.

We don't need to fix our arena. We aren't going to to fix the conference issue, attendance issue etc. without winning. We aren't going to win without a new coach.

Conferences are changing faster than we are able to adapt. Waste one more year and we will be that much further in the camp of the "have nots".

(03-12-2014 06:34 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I tend to agree. Basketball's problems are much deeper than Braun and will take more than a new coach to fix. If some alum steps up with the buyout money, fire him. In any event, focus on getting some of the other things right. Firing Braun makes sense if and only if he can be replaced by someone better. Where this program finds itself, I'm not sure that can be done until some other changes are made.

Without knowing the actual details of the buyout provisions, I'm inclined to agree on the money aspect.

But what are the other changes that need to be made? We spent 10 years being told that the facility was the problem. That finally got fixed to the tune of $30M and doesn't seem to have made much difference at all. I'm sure that increasing the budget for assistants would help attract better HC candidates, but it's hard to see that happening (or making any difference) if Braun is retained.

My thoughts on Braun are conflicted. On one hand I am angry that he brought in Morcos and then promoted him. On the other hand I am sympathetic that he had to deal with Rick Greenspan. Despite all the complaints about facilities, budgets, and admissions processes, I think Greenspan's Reign of Error was the worst thing Rice has inflicted on any recent coach.

The players do deserve some of the blame directed at Braun. FT shooting doesn't require a coach. Hard to believe how bad our FT shooting was this year. Not that I want Braun to return but the loss to UNT and several others directly rest on lousy FT shooting.

While I believe the upgrade to Tudor/Autry made a significant difference in helping Rice compete for talent, the facility will need constant upgrades and proactive maintenance to remain competitive. No chair backs in the upper areas needs to be rectified, the scoreboard animation package and the audio system is horrible (I could never understand any of the announcements and the score was often not put on the screen crawl at the bottom). Further, the scoreboard content package provides no updated individual statistics or enhanced information which is available in other stadiums. The Roost is poorly conceived in the upper corner and was rarely used. The Roost could be a great amenity but needs to be redeveloped. Did anyone notice that the ceiling paint is peeling....badly and nothing was done about it during the entire season? I also noticed on several occasions that there was no/little clean up done between Thursday-Saturday games. On at least two occasions, the game day program I left next my seat on Thursday was still there on Saturday night. The money spent in the upgrade spent in new locker rooms, administrative offices, weight rooms and education space is well spent and the space is exceptional. The court/arena still needs some work and will always need to be updated.

(03-12-2014 06:34 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-12-2014 01:19 AM)Bay Area Owl Wrote:  If Karlgaard is going to fire Braun, I figure he would do so very soon, but I don't think he will. I don't think he can afford to cover the two years of the buyout. Even putting together one year of the buyout may require some fundraising over the next year.
It's the more shrewd move, in my opinion, for Karlgaard to focus on how to improve MBB and make the right hire next year, while allowing Braun to serve out another year of his expensive contract. MBB requires more attention than just a coaching change; the whole marketing and promotion philosophy requires work. Dumping Braun right now might feel good, but it only burdens the program with debt and a very limited pot to spend on the next coach. If Rice can hold on to the talented youngsters -- and I think that's reasonable to assume -- keeping Braun for another year isn't going to worsen the situation. It's just prolongs the inevitable, but at least Rice can make a hire next year from a stronger position.
The very fact that MBB hasn't been drawing many in attendance or generating much revenue for a long while now suggests Braun will stay. If Rice and Karlgaard thought making a change would dramatically improve attendance and revenue next year, the buyout would make some sense, but a new coach isn't likely to make an immediate impact on attendance. I think Karlgaard will take the longer view.

I tend to agree. Basketball's problems are much deeper than Braun and will take more than a new coach to fix. If some alum steps up with the buyout money, fire him. In any event, focus on getting some of the other things right. Firing Braun makes sense if and only if he can be replaced by someone better. Where this program finds itself, I'm not sure that can be done until some other changes are made.

There may be reasons to keep Braun. The buyout may be an issue. There may be extenuating factors.

But I don't get people stating the problems are so big that even a new coach couldn't fix them. What problems does Braun have that Willis did not have? He has less, because he had/has a brand new facility to use in recruiting.

While it's true that Willis didn't make the NCAA's ever, he did produce some NBA level talent, his players stuck around. The argument was that we could get someone better.

Well, the team has actually been worse, at least in terms of RPI and record.

Many here were convinced we could get someone in better than Willis. We're so bad now that we are implying that we may not be able to find a coach that could do better until other things change (while we do have new facilities). And people are questioning whether we can get someone better than Braun? We can't get someone better than the coach we hired to do better than Willis, while in fact our performance has been worse?

Again, there may be reasons to keep Braun, but the logic here escapes me completely. If we believed we could hire someone better than Willis, I'd think we'd believe also that we could hire someone who could do better than Braun, who has produced worse results.

Bay Area may be 100% right about the buyout money. But that's it, period. It's not 'we need other fixes more'.

I'll allow that it's also possible that none of this is Braun's fault (I agree with Tiki about FT shooting.), that he's a better coach and that he'll show it one day. That's a different argument than, we need other things fixed, or that we quite possibly couldn't hire someone better.

(03-12-2014 01:19 AM)Bay Area Owl Wrote:  If Karlgaard is going to fire Braun, I figure he would do so very soon, but I don't think he will. I don't think he can afford to cover the two years of the buyout. Even putting together one year of the buyout may require some fundraising over the next year.

It's the more shrewd move, in my opinion, for Karlgaard to focus on how to improve MBB and make the right hire next year, while allowing Braun to serve out another year of his expensive contract. MBB requires more attention than just a coaching change; the whole marketing and promotion philosophy requires work. Dumping Braun right now might feel good, but it only burdens the program with debt and a very limited pot to spend on the next coach. If Rice can hold on to the talented youngsters -- and I think that's reasonable to assume -- keeping Braun for another year isn't going to worsen the situation. It's just prolongs the inevitable, but at least Rice can make a hire next year from a stronger position.

The very fact that MBB hasn't been drawing many in attendance or generating much revenue for a long while now suggests Braun will stay. If Rice and Karlgaard thought making a change would dramatically improve attendance and revenue next year, the buyout would make some sense, but a new coach isn't likely to make an immediate impact on attendance. I think Karlgaard will take the longer view.

Agree completely. Keep Braun for two more years. Rice isn't the kind of school that can come up with the quick cash to buy out a contract. We aren't the University of Texas. If over the next two years Braun can do something with his young players, keep him, if not, let him go. Give him the benefit of the doubt. For all we know, Greenspan had as much to do with those players leaving as anyone else.

(03-12-2014 12:04 PM)Kayjay Wrote:  While I believe the upgrade to Tudor/Autry made a significant difference in helping Rice compete for talent, the facility will need constant upgrades and proactive maintenance to remain competitive. No chair backs in the upper areas needs to be rectified, the scoreboard animation package and the audio system is horrible (I could never understand any of the announcements and the score was often not put on the screen crawl at the bottom). Further, the scoreboard content package provides no updated individual statistics or enhanced information which is available in other stadiums. The Roost is poorly conceived in the upper corner and was rarely used. The Roost could be a great amenity but needs to be redeveloped. Did anyone notice that the ceiling paint is peeling....badly and nothing was done about it during the entire season? I also noticed on several occasions that there was no/little clean up done between Thursday-Saturday games. On at least two occasions, the game day program I left next my seat on Thursday was still there on Saturday night. The money spent in the upgrade spent in new locker rooms, administrative offices, weight rooms and education space is well spent and the space is exceptional. The court/arena still needs some work and will always need to be updated.

This seems to be par for the course. Our athletic facility maintenance leaves much to be desired.

(03-12-2014 12:51 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  Agree completely. Keep Braun for two more years. Rice isn't the kind of school that can come up with the quick cash to buy out a contract. We aren't the University of Texas. If over the next two years Braun can do something with his young players, keep him, if not, let him go. Give him the benefit of the doubt. For all we know, Greenspan had as much to do with those players leaving as anyone else.

I don't understand this. It isn't like Rice was the world beater prior to the RG/Morcos disaster. We were a SUB-0.500 (vs Division 1) team the year before. Sure we saw some potential and liked the way it was heading, but absent of any tangible results, there is no reason to keep him around.

(03-12-2014 12:51 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  Agree completely. Keep Braun for two more years. Rice isn't the kind of school that can come up with the quick cash to buy out a contract. We aren't the University of Texas. If over the next two years Braun can do something with his young players, keep him, if not, let him go. Give him the benefit of the doubt. For all we know, Greenspan had as much to do with those players leaving as anyone else.

If Rice can't afford the buyout to get rid of an underperforming coach that is overpaid (800k), should not have been given an extension, and should have been fired last year, then get out of the D-1 college athletic business. Six years of terrible results does not earn a "benfit of the doubt". The LaTech coach is making 1/4 of what Braun is making.

Braun's record:
2008–2009: 10–22, Conf 4–12 T-10th
2009–2010: 8–23, Conf 1–15 12th
2010–2011: 14–18, Conf 5–11 10th
2011–2012: 17–15, Conf 8–8 7th
2012–2013: 5-26, Conf 1-15 12th
2013-2014: 7-23, Conf 2-14, 16th

Overall: 63-130, 21-75 in conference (WOW!!!)

And Rice should keep him around another two years and pay him another 1.6 million? Why should I continue purchasing season tickets and dontaing to the Owl Club when there is no accountability?

(03-12-2014 11:32 AM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  The players do deserve some of the blame directed at Braun. FT shooting doesn't require a coach. Hard to believe how bad our FT shooting was this year. Not that I want Braun to return but the loss to UNT and several others directly rest on lousy FT shooting.

Some yes, but who recruited them or hired the people that recruited them? If they had a decent FT % in HS, what is the current coach/staff doing/not doing that caused the decline? If they didn't have a decent FT % in HS, unless they have some other overwhelming positives, why were they recruited? Ultimately, it all goes back to the coaching staff. They either can't evaluate talent or can't develop (or at least maintain) that talent. I'm leaning to the latter.

(03-12-2014 08:58 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  Same boat here with 4 chairbacks. Hell, I used to have 4 others on the end just to give away. How many nights this year has the attendance been in the low (very low) 100's if you exclude kid choirs/cheerleaders/bands etc. What about more than 50 or even 30 in the student section? I just can't imagine trying to recruit in a environment with a clearly lame duck coach.

This would be the second time in a Few Year that Rice would have done this, which makes it hard for me to see it as a good option.

edit: Correction... Did not get a church to proofread

(03-12-2014 01:41 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(03-12-2014 08:58 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  Same boat here with 4 chairbacks. Hell, I used to have 4 others on the end just to give away. How many nights this year has the attendance been in the low (very low) 100's if you exclude kid choirs/cheerleaders/bands etc. What about more than 50 or even 30 in the student section? I just can't imagine trying to recruit in a environment with a clearly lame duck coach.

This would be the second time in a Few Year that Rice would have zone this, which makes it hard for me to see it as a good open.

Sorry, I know we're not supposed to make fun of stuff like this, but your touch pad typing/autocorrect cracked me up.

(03-12-2014 12:04 PM)Kayjay Wrote:  SNIP
Did anyone notice that the ceiling paint is peeling....badly and nothing was done about it during the entire season?

The ceiling paint is being repaired starting yesterday morning. We had meetings to start planning it during the fall semester, when we installed acoustic banners in the Band/Gym to try to help that situation.

I think the delay for Autry was scheduling. It's a busy room!

Chuck

(03-12-2014 01:58 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  

(03-12-2014 01:41 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(03-12-2014 08:58 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  Same boat here with 4 chairbacks. Hell, I used to have 4 others on the end just to give away. How many nights this year has the attendance been in the low (very low) 100's if you exclude kid choirs/cheerleaders/bands etc. What about more than 50 or even 30 in the student section? I just can't imagine trying to recruit in a environment with a clearly lame duck coach.

This would be the second time in a Few Year that Rice would have zone this, which makes it hard for me to see it as a good open.

Sorry, I know we're not supposed to make fun of stuff like this, but your touch pad typing/autocorrect cracked me up.

I am currently waiting to go Into surgery on my finger but cant board dogs blame drugs . My phone is a piece of crap .

(03-12-2014 12:11 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  But I don't get people stating the problems are so big that even a new coach couldn't fix them. What problems does Braun have that Willis did not have? He has less, because he had/has a brand new facility to use in recruiting.

While it's true that Willis didn't make the NCAA's ever, he did produce some NBA level talent, his players stuck around. The argument was that we could get someone better.

Well, the team has actually been worse, at least in terms of RPI and record.

Many here were convinced we could get someone in better than Willis. We're so bad now that we are implying that we may not be able to find a coach that could do better until other things change (while we do have new facilities). And people are questioning whether we can get someone better than Braun? We can't get someone better than the coach we hired to do better than Willis, while in fact our performance has been worse?

Again, there may be reasons to keep Braun, but the logic here escapes me completely. If we believed we could hire someone better than Willis, I'd think we'd believe also that we could hire someone who could do better than Braun, who has produced worse results.

Bay Area may be 100% right about the buyout money. But that's it, period. It's not 'we need other fixes more'.

I'll allow that it's also possible that none of this is Braun's fault (I agree with Tiki about FT shooting.), that he's a better coach and that he'll show it one day. That's a different argument than, we need other things fixed, or that we quite possibly couldn't hire someone better.

Willis Wilson had the highest attrition rate and lowest graduation rate of all the D1 sports while at Rice, so he actually doesn't compare with Bailiff's biggest achievement while at Rice. The very fact that Willis had some NBA-level talent but couldn't muster a big season says a lot about the limitations of his coaching.

Willis Wilson had 16 years to make something happen at Rice, and he simply never got to the Tournament with some talented teams. The most damning record for Willis was that he never even appeared in a conference tournament final, and the semi-final appearances were very rare. He simply couldn't win the important games.

Unless Braun produces a miracle next year, he's on his way out as well. Rice bought out WTW's last year of his contract, and Rice will probably do the same for the last year of Braun's contract.

Rice can find a better coaching fit than Braun, but it requires the AD doing his homework to find a promising young coach. I don't think JVG would be worth the salary he would command, and JVG is not even close to Larry Brown's league. Even the Larry Brown era at SMU could still end in tears. I still think Braun's a decent coach, but the circumstances around him at Rice clearly haven't worked out. The lack of attendance and hype around the program would certainly harm any coach's ability to retain great recruits. A new coach, especially a young one on a steep learning curve, isn't going to instantly fix the deeper problems with the program.

Beyond a clearly better career history, Braun proved he is a better coach than Willis with the head-to-head matchups. Rice beat Willis' TAMU-CC both times, including this year --Willis also claimed his TAMU-CC gig had more potential than Rice-- and Braun's best win at Rice was when the Owls flat-out spanked the Memphis team with WTW as an assistant.

Willis Wilson is gone. Whether he is better or worse isn't relevant - Braun simply isn't getting the job done.

(03-12-2014 03:52 PM)Bay Area Owl Wrote:  

(03-12-2014 12:11 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  But I don't get people stating the problems are so big that even a new coach couldn't fix them. What problems does Braun have that Willis did not have? He has less, because he had/has a brand new facility to use in recruiting.

While it's true that Willis didn't make the NCAA's ever, he did produce some NBA level talent, his players stuck around. The argument was that we could get someone better.

Well, the team has actually been worse, at least in terms of RPI and record.

Many here were convinced we could get someone in better than Willis. We're so bad now that we are implying that we may not be able to find a coach that could do better until other things change (while we do have new facilities). And people are questioning whether we can get someone better than Braun? We can't get someone better than the coach we hired to do better than Willis, while in fact our performance has been worse?

Again, there may be reasons to keep Braun, but the logic here escapes me completely. If we believed we could hire someone better than Willis, I'd think we'd believe also that we could hire someone who could do better than Braun, who has produced worse results.

Bay Area may be 100% right about the buyout money. But that's it, period. It's not 'we need other fixes more'.

I'll allow that it's also possible that none of this is Braun's fault (I agree with Tiki about FT shooting.), that he's a better coach and that he'll show it one day. That's a different argument than, we need other things fixed, or that we quite possibly couldn't hire someone better.

Willis Wilson had the highest attrition rate and lowest graduation rate of all the D1 sports while at Rice, so he actually doesn't compare with Bailiff's biggest achievement while at Rice. The very fact that Willis had some NBA-level talent but couldn't muster a big season says a lot about the limitations of his coaching.

Willis Wilson had 16 years to make something happen at Rice, and he simply never got to the Tournament with some talented teams. The most damning record for Willis was that he never even appeared in a conference tournament final, and the semi-final appearances were very rare. He simply couldn't win the important games.

Unless Braun produces a miracle next year, he's on his way out as well. Rice bought out WTW's last year of his contract, and Rice will probably do the same for the last year of Braun's contract.

Rice can find a better coaching fit than Braun, but it requires the AD doing his homework to find a promising young coach. I don't think JVG would be worth the salary he would command, and JVG is not even close to Larry Brown's league. Even the Larry Brown era at SMU could still end in tears. I still think Braun's a decent coach, but the circumstances around him at Rice clearly haven't worked out. The lack of attendance and hype around the program would certainly harm any coach's ability to retain great recruits. A new coach, especially a young one on a steep learning curve, isn't going to instantly fix the deeper problems with the program.

Beyond a clearly better career history, Braun proved he is a better coach than Willis with the head-to-head matchups. Rice beat Willis' TAMU-CC both times, including this year --Willis also claimed his TAMU-CC gig had more potential than Rice-- and Braun's best win at Rice was when the Owls flat-out spanked the Memphis team with WTW as an assistant.

My point wasn't whether we should have Willis back, it was simply that the argument that we may not do better than Braun, or that other programmatic problems mean that no coach could win at Rice is weak. Those arguments would not have been accepted by the anti-Willis crowd, so they make zero sense when applied to Braun. Attrition rates are certainly not going to help Braun either.

The argument about who is a better coach boils down to their record here at Rice, both win-loss and in Sagarin rankings. It's certainly open to discussion, but overall Braun has done worse while here at Rice. Whether he was a better coach at Cal, or could turn things around here are open to debate, but the record here pretty much speaks for itself.

I'm certainly willing to listen to reasons why Rice should keep Braun, and you've provided one that may be great, although we have no information about buyout clauses to be sure. There may be other good reasons. But comparing Braun's overall record and Sagarin ratings to Willis' is not going to make the case.

(03-12-2014 06:41 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  My point wasn't whether we should have Willis back, it was simply that the argument that we may not do better than Braun, or that other programmatic problems mean that no coach could win at Rice is weak. Those arguments would not have been accepted by the anti-Willis crowd, so they make zero sense when applied to Braun. Attrition rates are certainly not going to help Braun either.

The argument about who is a better coach boils down to their record here at Rice, both win-loss and in Sagarin rankings. It's certainly open to discussion, but overall Braun has done worse while here at Rice. Whether he was a better coach at Cal, or could turn things around here are open to debate, but the record here pretty much speaks for itself.

I'm certainly willing to listen to reasons why Rice should keep Braun, and you've provided one that may be great, although we have no information about buyout clauses to be sure. There may be other good reasons. But comparing Braun's overall record and Sagarin ratings to Willis' is not going to make the case.

Rick, that's one of the reasons I started the other thread about Braun's offensive and defensive schemes. I wanted to know more of the nitty-gritty of exactly what has he chosen to do with those players he has had here over the last 6 years. (I listen to most games on internet radio.)

When I used to watch Scott Thompson coach in practices, I learned enough about match-up zone and Triangle Offense to see a bit of whether we were winning or losing because of execution and which players understood and excelled at performing correctly.

I have little idea of what Braun's offensive or defensive philosophies were/are at Rice. I am a person who thinks that, especially in basketball, it is the Head Coach who can overcome obstacles at a program more than any other one factor you can change. Part of it is how he chooses to recruit (Braun seems to have gambled and lost with his choices of how to do that i.e. Morcos) Part of it is his basic offensive and defensive philosophy. Part how he adapts his players to best using their talents, and part is how much of a motivator he is to get his players to believe and achieve above their potential.

I can't see how Braun has succeeded on any of those metrics, in addition to wins and losses, over 6 years here.

(03-12-2014 01:06 PM)WIowl Wrote:  

(03-12-2014 12:51 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  Agree completely. Keep Braun for two more years. Rice isn't the kind of school that can come up with the quick cash to buy out a contract. We aren't the University of Texas. If over the next two years Braun can do something with his young players, keep him, if not, let him go. Give him the benefit of the doubt. For all we know, Greenspan had as much to do with those players leaving as anyone else.

If Rice can't afford the buyout to get rid of an underperforming coach that is overpaid (800k), should not have been given an extension, and should have been fired last year, then get out of the D-1 college athletic business. Six years of terrible results does not earn a "benfit of the doubt". The LaTech coach is making 1/4 of what Braun is making.

Braun's record:
2008–2009: 10–22, Conf 4–12 T-10th
2009–2010: 8–23, Conf 1–15 12th
2010–2011: 14–18, Conf 5–11 10th
2011–2012: 17–15, Conf 8–8 7th
2012–2013: 5-26, Conf 1-15 12th
2013-2014: 7-23, Conf 2-14, 16th

Overall: 63-130, 21-75 in conference (WOW!!!)

And Rice should keep him around another two years and pay him another 1.6 million? Why should I continue purchasing season tickets and dontaing to the Owl Club when there is no accountability?

Very young and talented players

(03-12-2014 08:15 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  

(03-12-2014 01:06 PM)WIowl Wrote:  

(03-12-2014 12:51 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  Agree completely. Keep Braun for two more years. Rice isn't the kind of school that can come up with the quick cash to buy out a contract. We aren't the University of Texas. If over the next two years Braun can do something with his young players, keep him, if not, let him go. Give him the benefit of the doubt. For all we know, Greenspan had as much to do with those players leaving as anyone else.

If Rice can't afford the buyout to get rid of an underperforming coach that is overpaid (800k), should not have been given an extension, and should have been fired last year, then get out of the D-1 college athletic business. Six years of terrible results does not earn a "benfit of the doubt". The LaTech coach is making 1/4 of what Braun is making.

Braun's record:
2008–2009: 10–22, Conf 4–12 T-10th
2009–2010: 8–23, Conf 1–15 12th
2010–2011: 14–18, Conf 5–11 10th
2011–2012: 17–15, Conf 8–8 7th
2012–2013: 5-26, Conf 1-15 12th
2013-2014: 7-23, Conf 2-14, 16th

Overall: 63-130, 21-75 in conference (WOW!!!)

And Rice should keep him around another two years and pay him another 1.6 million? Why should I continue purchasing season tickets and dontaing to the Owl Club when there is no accountability?

Very young and talented players

Not at the FT line or defensively. Last years team was for more intensive with lesser skilled players. This years team was a disappointment compared to last years.