(02-18-2014 02:55 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(02-18-2014 02:46 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  There wasn't a 30 something disparity in free throws. Let the players decide the game, not the refs

Which is completely unreasonable on the part of the refs. But after being unreasonable all game, to the point that there is no possible way that the referees can be unaware of the foul discrepancy, a little wheedling from Pastner is not going to make them any more reasonable.

It's akin to standing after a bench trial and telling the judge that he's being unfair: either he thinks that he is actually being fair and now you've pissed him off; or he knows he's being unfair and he doesn't care. In either regard, whining doesn't accomplish anything.

No one wants a whiner.

(02-18-2014 02:18 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  

(02-16-2014 08:33 AM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  Wednesday I had a chance to sit very close to Josh. I was there 30 minutes early.

I made a point to watch his interaction with the refs. He worked he refs before the game. He worked the refs during play. He worked the game during time outs.

Complain about officiating if you will. Fans do that.
Complain about Josh not being who you want to coach the Tigers. Fans have the right.

But I get a little tired of these mindless, baseless attacks used to argue the reasoning of the run off Josh ilk. Josh isn't Cal. Live with it. But Cals record here, just as a reminder, included the same whining about sucky refs. Constantly.

Cal wins because he loads up on a boatload of top 10 caliber players very year.
The Tigers lost yesterday like we lost before, because excellent guards have made plays down the stretch and ours have not.

All is not lost. Our resume is still good. We have high caliber games left to improve our good win case and we do not have a single bad win all season. We nedd to beat the teams we are supposed beat and get the ville and smu wins plus make the finals on our floor. Do that and we are a 5-6 seed.

Remember projections before the season began. 8-9 loses was the avg projection.

My OP didn't have anything to do with how Josh coached in that game. The fact that we were in it despite the free throw shellacking is a testament to the job he did.

My intenet was in reference to reputation and I don't believe that a ref/crew would treat Calipari that way. Cal might curse the refs, he might get a T, he may even get ejected, but I don't think he would be railroaded like that. That's all I was saying.

I could have used Kirk or Finch as well.

And my point is that when Cal was here everyone complained about the officiating and the for those who complain that Josh doesn't work the refs that's simply not the case. He may not run out and get techs for excessive profanity but he pushes the limit.

I do believe there is a club of coaches who have been around for a long time and have "earned" some TLC from the refs. Josh can't determine when he gets in the club but my guess he will be ahead of the curve for the arrival.

I have said previously, this is the year to make a statement about Josh. I don't agree with all of his decisions. I much prefer a traditional lineup with a true point, a true center, a 2 guard (shooting Guard), a three guard/small forward and a power forward.

Joe does some amazing things but he falls short as a true PG. Sometimes he even looks the part of a PG but overall he is a scorer first and he doesn't see the floor like a true floor general. Speed is his greatest asset and speed gives him the edge a lot. CC comes close to being the ideal 2G because he does so many things well but he doesn't break down the D off the dribble and he is streaky as a bad hair dye job. The past four years has been built around those two guys as others have come and gone.

None of our guards this year are consistently stopping guard penetration. Want to know why we get so many fouls called against us? We reach a lot out front, we reach a lot as the guards fly by driving to the basket and we slap down a lot with our bigs as they try and pick up the drive.

The four kings including the lock down efforts of GJ and the 6th man D from MD ain't happening like we counted on this year. That's the difference in at least 2 to maybe four wins along with the four kings deciding to win every game with the three.

Perimeter defense against our quality competition is my biggest disappointment this year.

(02-15-2014 07:09 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  If Cal was coaching that game today, no way there is such a free throw discrepancy. Fact.

Fouls Before The Tech
9 Kentucky
14 Florida

Fouls After The Tech
8 Kentucky
2 Florida

Uhhhhhh...cough...cough...fact.

(02-19-2014 04:21 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2014 07:09 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  If Cal was coaching that game today, no way there is such a free throw discrepancy. Fact.

Fouls Before The Tech
9 Kentucky
14 Florida

Fouls After The Tech
8 Kentucky
2 Florida

Uhhhhhh...cough...cough...fact.

Go back and check the thread Stammers in regard to what I said about Fact.

Cough, there wasn't a 29 free throw margin in that game either.

(02-19-2014 10:09 AM)Tiger46 Wrote:  

(02-19-2014 04:21 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2014 07:09 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  If Cal was coaching that game today, no way there is such a free throw discrepancy. Fact.

Fouls Before The Tech
9 Kentucky
14 Florida

Fouls After The Tech
8 Kentucky
2 Florida

Uhhhhhh...cough...cough...fact.

Go back and check the thread Stammers in regard to what I said about Fact.

Cough, there wasn't a 29 free throw margin in that game either.

There wasn't a free throw margin of 29 only because there were only 8 minutes left in the game when Cal got the tech. The refs didn't do us any favours when Cal was here; especially in big games, so I don't see any basis in fact with what you said.

(02-19-2014 10:59 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-19-2014 10:09 AM)Tiger46 Wrote:  

(02-19-2014 04:21 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2014 07:09 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  If Cal was coaching that game today, no way there is such a free throw discrepancy. Fact.

Fouls Before The Tech
9 Kentucky
14 Florida

Fouls After The Tech
8 Kentucky
2 Florida

Uhhhhhh...cough...cough...fact.

Go back and check the thread Stammers in regard to what I said about Fact.

Cough, there wasn't a 29 free throw margin in that game either.

There wasn't a free throw margin of 29 only because there were only 8 minutes left in the game when Cal got the tech. The refs didn't do us any favours when Cal was here; especially in big games, so I don't see any basis in fact with what you said.

I'm not going to re-read the thread for you.

(02-19-2014 11:58 AM)Tiger46 Wrote:  

(02-19-2014 10:59 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-19-2014 10:09 AM)Tiger46 Wrote:  

(02-19-2014 04:21 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-15-2014 07:09 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  If Cal was coaching that game today, no way there is such a free throw discrepancy. Fact.

Fouls Before The Tech
9 Kentucky
14 Florida

Fouls After The Tech
8 Kentucky
2 Florida

Uhhhhhh...cough...cough...fact.

Go back and check the thread Stammers in regard to what I said about Fact.

Cough, there wasn't a 29 free throw margin in that game either.

There wasn't a free throw margin of 29 only because there were only 8 minutes left in the game when Cal got the tech. The refs didn't do us any favours when Cal was here; especially in big games, so I don't see any basis in fact with what you said.

I'm not going to re-read the thread for you.

Glad we agree that your post was ridiculous. Thanks.

When we watch the games he's not miked. I'd bet everything in my wallet that Pastner works the refs plenty, just quietly and without yelling a ton.

I'd bet on balance the refs appreciate not being shown up publicly and respect that sort of approach to criticism and it probably means that when Pastner has to say something it carries more weight than constant screaming.

Just a guess, never sat close enough to hear him. But since generally (as Mimi pointed out), we've gotten some whistles in our favor as well this year, I'm thinking:

- All coaches work the refs, including Pastner, just in different ways.
- A yeller (Calipari was mentioned, others would work as well) might have done better in this individual game since this situation might have called for a T/ejection to make it clear how one-sided it was.
- However, a yeller can also hurt you with a lot of referee crews who don't like being shown up. Deadspin had an excerpt of a book that disgraced ref wrote and he flat out admitted that refs will make up calls for personal agendas.

So, sure we might have benefitted from a 'yeller' in this case, but I'd venture a 'whisperer' gets more calls over time.

Just an opinion, no facts

(02-15-2014 07:09 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  If Cal was coaching that game today, no way there is such a free throw discrepancy. Fact.

Probably true, this game could have used a 'yeller', but I think we get a better whistle in most games due to partner being more respectful in his 'working' of the refs.

I think we are better off generally this way, but there are times other paths might work better. I'll live with Pastner's court demeanor over Cal's (or any other) yellers on most days. More flies with honey, etc.

(02-15-2014 07:44 PM)DoomHaynesJr Wrote:  Knee jerk reaction to all the posts from the Blame JP Crowd. Wrote mine before seeing the "not to bash Josh". Still, I'd rather be in the NIT w/ JP vs. Final Four with Slimeball.

Yeah, I'll still take the F4, lol. At some CJP will get us there, so it will be a moot point, but winning > coaching loyalty. Front of the jersey and program over coach (even one I admire and like as much as our current one).

(02-15-2014 09:27 PM)NJ1 Wrote:  I'd have loved to see him get T'd up or even ejected. There was some BS going on out there.

I'm also not mad that he chose to do it his way. I've never seen any proof or even evidence to suggest that a 35 year old coach mouthing off to the refs gets his team calls, neither in the short arc nor the long arc.

We lost the battle, but are fully capable of winning the war. I really think the refs appreciate being treated well and that makes Pastner's criticism more likely to be listened to. Just a hunch.

(02-15-2014 09:18 PM)Mimi Wrote:  For the season- before today:

Memphis free throws: 600
Opponent free throws: 471

Fouls called on Memphis: 433
Opponents called: 500

This stat is great, thanks Mimi.

(02-15-2014 08:38 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  my point is that Josh should and needs to work refs during games. this doesn't mean I hate josh. everyone can agree that you want your coach to work refs during the game.

Yep, and I bet he's working them plenty actually. CJP ain't dumb

(02-19-2014 01:59 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  

(02-15-2014 09:18 PM)Mimi Wrote:  For the season- before today:

Memphis free throws: 600
Opponent free throws: 471

Fouls called on Memphis: 433
Opponents called: 500

This stat is great, thanks Mimi.

(02-15-2014 08:38 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  my point is that Josh should and needs to work refs during games. this doesn't mean I hate josh. everyone can agree that you want your coach to work refs during the game.

Yep, and I bet he's working them plenty actually. CJP ain't dumb

without question Josh isn't dumb. I think he graduated in 2 years, if I'm correct, I think I am, but if not he did it in 3.

also, I'm sure he is working the refs plenty...him working them plenty doesn't automatically make him good at it. if he worked them a bunch against UConn he didn't do well.

(02-19-2014 02:12 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  

(02-19-2014 01:59 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  

(02-15-2014 09:18 PM)Mimi Wrote:  For the season- before today:

Memphis free throws: 600
Opponent free throws: 471

Fouls called on Memphis: 433
Opponents called: 500

This stat is great, thanks Mimi.

(02-15-2014 08:38 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  my point is that Josh should and needs to work refs during games. this doesn't mean I hate josh. everyone can agree that you want your coach to work refs during the game.

Yep, and I bet he's working them plenty actually. CJP ain't dumb

without question Josh isn't dumb. I think he graduated in 2 years, if I'm correct, I think I am, but if not he did it in 3.

I'm pretty sure you are both smarter than me

(02-19-2014 02:15 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  also, I'm sure he is working the refs plenty...him working them plenty doesn't automatically make him good at it. if he worked them a bunch against UConn he didn't do well.

Fair point, I guess my thesis is that his skill set for working the refs is generally solid (see Mimi's FT assessment), but not good in all situations. We saw a case where yelling might have helped.

But it's tough to prove either way and will remain a theory until the sabemetric guys at the Sloan conference get on it and make a 'Referee Management Variance Quotient' (RMVQ) and assign them all numbers like PER in the NBA. I can see it now:

"Well, you can see that Smart's RMVQ goes down when VCU's opponent goes in the bonus <8min in the first half. He needs to learn from Boeheim who again leads the ACC in a 19.32 adj. RMVQ"

(02-19-2014 02:16 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  

(02-19-2014 02:12 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  

(02-19-2014 01:59 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  

(02-15-2014 09:18 PM)Mimi Wrote:  For the season- before today:

Memphis free throws: 600
Opponent free throws: 471

Fouls called on Memphis: 433
Opponents called: 500

This stat is great, thanks Mimi.

(02-15-2014 08:38 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  my point is that Josh should and needs to work refs during games. this doesn't mean I hate josh. everyone can agree that you want your coach to work refs during the game.

Yep, and I bet he's working them plenty actually. CJP ain't dumb

without question Josh isn't dumb. I think he graduated in 2 years, if I'm correct, I think I am, but if not he did it in 3.

I'm pretty sure you are both smarter than me

not if we are talking about "book smarts". I would come in third between the three of us.

We should have had during the course of the year less fouls called on us, after all we have played more games at home so there should be some home cooking involved, 4 Neutral games, 7 Away, 14 Home, so all in all we should have more FT's attempted just because of the amount of home games vs away..I would say this would be the case in most all teams that play more home games than away..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't know if CJP yelling at the refs or the players elicits much response. You see the emotions on his face, but his voice is so soft and "hoarse" sounding it just isn't threatening or intimidating and doesn't seem to command much attention. Maybe he realizes it is not a strength of his so he tailors his style differently (or doesn't like being hoarse until the next game). But if somebody with a voice like James Earl Jones yelled at the refs even the crowd would silence to stop and listen to what he had to say.

(02-15-2014 07:09 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  If Cal was coaching that game today, no way there is such a free throw discrepancy. Fact.

Maybe, but what's the point if his players can't make the free throws.

(02-19-2014 03:32 PM)MuchLuck Wrote:  

(02-15-2014 07:09 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  If Cal was coaching that game today, no way there is such a free throw discrepancy. Fact.

Maybe, but what's the point if his players can't make the free throws.

LOL

They'll make em' when they count....unless it's the NC

(02-19-2014 03:15 PM)I_LUV_MEMPHISTIGERS Wrote:  I don't know if CJP yelling at the refs or the players elicits much response. You see the emotions on his face, but his voice is so soft and "hoarse" sounding it just isn't threatening or intimidating and doesn't seem to command much attention. Maybe he realizes it is not a strength of his so he tailors his style differently (or doesn't like being hoarse until the next game). But if somebody with a voice like James Earl Jones yelled at the refs even the crowd would silence to stop and listen to what he had to say.

After hearing the entire season how I'm not at the games and don't know; I can clearly call b******t on anyone who says this. Pastner was in their ear constantly; mostly from on the court, and he had refs on his side of the court the whole time.

He was yelling at them, laughing, trying to reason with them, etc...obviously nothing worked.