(01-31-2014 02:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:52 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:48 PM)Stammers Wrote:  I would too, because contrary to what a few people believe, I am always looking for the truth. You have to admit though, that the Memphis/Iowa example is striking to say the least. You would have to think that losing to #5 wouldn't drop you so much, and beating #212 wouldn't improve you so much. There are a lot of variables; so I suppose it's impossible to prove either way; but the bottom line is that we did jump 11 spots by beating a team much crappier than #150.

All I was talking about was beating a mediocre team. I didn't say #150, but that kind of became the measuring stick. We went up 11 spots by beating #212 and Iowa went down 10 spots by losing to #5.

Well, things like home wins/losses plus what is happening around your ranking play into it.

Because the RPI is basically an average of sorts, our RPI would be helped by one more game (assuming a win) against another team with a good record and whose opponents have a good record.

Conversely, were we to play an additional RPI 200+ team, even if we won, our RPI rank would most likely stay the same or possibly drop a few spots.

But isn't it crazy that we actually DID play a +200 team and our RPI went up 11 points?

That didn't happen in a vacuum, though. It helps that we beat them on the road, that a lot of our other opponents got wins as welll (and I assume, a lot of our opponents' opponents did well), and that some teams around us lost.

Had our opponents all have lost, our RPI would've taken a dramatic plunge I bet, despite our win.

(01-31-2014 02:21 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:14 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:11 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:09 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:08 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  You can switch the Memphis road loss with OSU to a win and the road win vs. Temple to a loss and the RPI would be the same.

If you only played and beat Kansas your RPI would go up the same as if you only played and beat Presbyterian College; correct?

No. Kansas would be a bigger bump because of Kansas' AWP and their Opp AWP. The 25% for the "win" is the same for Memphis' AWP.

Don't know how else to explain WHO you played matters...not who you BEAT. He is having such a hard time with that concept.

I am starting to think he is doing this intentionally trying to get us to just give up because he is stubborn...The alternative is just sad.

Ok, so it doesn't matter if you beat Kansas or lose to them, as long as you play them; it has the same effect on your RPI. Correct?

As long as you end the season with the same number or road wins and home wins NO it wouldn't matter if you beat Kansas and lost to anyone else or lost to Anyone else and beat Kansas. As long as you played those two and ended up with the same number of wins at home and away your RPI would be the same.

(01-31-2014 03:01 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:52 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:48 PM)Stammers Wrote:  I would too, because contrary to what a few people believe, I am always looking for the truth. You have to admit though, that the Memphis/Iowa example is striking to say the least. You would have to think that losing to #5 wouldn't drop you so much, and beating #212 wouldn't improve you so much. There are a lot of variables; so I suppose it's impossible to prove either way; but the bottom line is that we did jump 11 spots by beating a team much crappier than #150.

All I was talking about was beating a mediocre team. I didn't say #150, but that kind of became the measuring stick. We went up 11 spots by beating #212 and Iowa went down 10 spots by losing to #5.

Well, things like home wins/losses plus what is happening around your ranking play into it.

Because the RPI is basically an average of sorts, our RPI would be helped by one more game (assuming a win) against another team with a good record and whose opponents have a good record.

Conversely, were we to play an additional RPI 200+ team, even if we won, our RPI rank would most likely stay the same or possibly drop a few spots.

But isn't it crazy that we actually DID play a +200 team and our RPI went up 11 points?

That didn't happen in a vacuum, though. It helps that we beat them on the road, that a lot of our other opponents got wins as welll (and I assume, a lot of our opponents' opponents did well), and that some teams around us lost.

Had our opponents all have lost, our RPI would've taken a dramatic plunge I bet, despite our win.

He doesn't understand the concept that a road win is more than twice as valuable as a home win. So that more than makes up for the SOS hit you get at times.

(01-31-2014 03:01 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:52 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:48 PM)Stammers Wrote:  I would too, because contrary to what a few people believe, I am always looking for the truth. You have to admit though, that the Memphis/Iowa example is striking to say the least. You would have to think that losing to #5 wouldn't drop you so much, and beating #212 wouldn't improve you so much. There are a lot of variables; so I suppose it's impossible to prove either way; but the bottom line is that we did jump 11 spots by beating a team much crappier than #150.

All I was talking about was beating a mediocre team. I didn't say #150, but that kind of became the measuring stick. We went up 11 spots by beating #212 and Iowa went down 10 spots by losing to #5.

Well, things like home wins/losses plus what is happening around your ranking play into it.

Because the RPI is basically an average of sorts, our RPI would be helped by one more game (assuming a win) against another team with a good record and whose opponents have a good record.

Conversely, were we to play an additional RPI 200+ team, even if we won, our RPI rank would most likely stay the same or possibly drop a few spots.

But isn't it crazy that we actually DID play a +200 team and our RPI went up 11 points?

That didn't happen in a vacuum, though. It helps that we beat them on the road, that a lot of our other opponents got wins as welll (and I assume, a lot of our opponents' opponents did well), and that some teams around us lost.

Had our opponents all have lost, our RPI would've taken a dramatic plunge I bet, despite our win.

True; but if you look at us and Iowa; there are similarities between our records at home/neutral/road sites and our SOS.

I went over our opponents' games and you were spot on.

W - Memphis, @ 212 UCF
W - Nichols State, 198 Oral Roberts
W - Siena, 299 Niagara
W - LSU, 19 Kentucky
W - UALR, 183 Louisiana Lafayette
W - Florida, @154 MSU
W - SEMO, 200 UKMC
W - USF, 51 SMU
W - Cincy, @ 39 Louisville
W - Temple, 211 Rutgers
W - UConn, 171 Houston
L - UCF, 24 Memphis

The odds of this happening are probably in the hundred thousands, if not millions to 1.

(01-31-2014 03:14 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:01 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:52 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:48 PM)Stammers Wrote:  I would too, because contrary to what a few people believe, I am always looking for the truth. You have to admit though, that the Memphis/Iowa example is striking to say the least. You would have to think that losing to #5 wouldn't drop you so much, and beating #212 wouldn't improve you so much. There are a lot of variables; so I suppose it's impossible to prove either way; but the bottom line is that we did jump 11 spots by beating a team much crappier than #150.

All I was talking about was beating a mediocre team. I didn't say #150, but that kind of became the measuring stick. We went up 11 spots by beating #212 and Iowa went down 10 spots by losing to #5.

Well, things like home wins/losses plus what is happening around your ranking play into it.

Because the RPI is basically an average of sorts, our RPI would be helped by one more game (assuming a win) against another team with a good record and whose opponents have a good record.

Conversely, were we to play an additional RPI 200+ team, even if we won, our RPI rank would most likely stay the same or possibly drop a few spots.

But isn't it crazy that we actually DID play a +200 team and our RPI went up 11 points?

That didn't happen in a vacuum, though. It helps that we beat them on the road, that a lot of our other opponents got wins as welll (and I assume, a lot of our opponents' opponents did well), and that some teams around us lost.

Had our opponents all have lost, our RPI would've taken a dramatic plunge I bet, despite our win.

He doesn't understand the concept that a road win is more than twice as valuable as a home win. So that more than makes up for the SOS hit you get at times.

Are you still arguing about how a single win against Kansas is no different than a single win against Presbyterian?

(01-31-2014 03:21 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:14 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:01 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:52 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  Well, things like home wins/losses plus what is happening around your ranking play into it.

Because the RPI is basically an average of sorts, our RPI would be helped by one more game (assuming a win) against another team with a good record and whose opponents have a good record.

Conversely, were we to play an additional RPI 200+ team, even if we won, our RPI rank would most likely stay the same or possibly drop a few spots.

But isn't it crazy that we actually DID play a +200 team and our RPI went up 11 points?

That didn't happen in a vacuum, though. It helps that we beat them on the road, that a lot of our other opponents got wins as welll (and I assume, a lot of our opponents' opponents did well), and that some teams around us lost.

Had our opponents all have lost, our RPI would've taken a dramatic plunge I bet, despite our win.

He doesn't understand the concept that a road win is more than twice as valuable as a home win. So that more than makes up for the SOS hit you get at times.

Are you still arguing about how a single win against Kansas is no different than a single win against Presbyterian?

WHO you play matters...NOT WHO YOU BEAT....I am sure you understand this but you are as stubborn as a bull and enjoy arguing even if you are wrong.

So is the WHO you play the same if you play 2 different teams...Not that hard.

(01-31-2014 02:42 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  There are too many loose variables. I'd like to find a site that has shows your opponent's composite records and opponent's opponent's composite records so I could do an accurate calculation. I don't have the time to cull through that myself.

This will hopefully put some rest to the nonsense.

Ok Columbia is the RPI 150 as for WarrenNolan.

In order to calculate what Memphis’ rpi would be after a win vs. 150RPI (and remember the premise was a 10+ point jump in a LO replacement game) we need to get Memphis AWP and Opp w % and opp-opp win %.

Memphis’ current AWP is .7530. After the home win, it goes up to .7609. Hold onto that.

We then have to figure out Columbia’s new metrics. Their AWP will drop (after the loss) from .6667 to .6400. Their opp win % (by virtue of playing Memphis) will go up from .4584 to .4743.

Ok, now we look at Memphis’ 50% OWP category. Columbia’s .6400 will serve as 1/20th (number of games now played) of that stat. The previous rating was .5748 (based upon combined SOS, but that will suffice) times 19 (games played) is 10.9212. Add that to .6400 to get 11.5612 and then divide by 20 to get the new 50% OWP of .5781.

Finally, to get the 25% OOWP, we take the .5748, again multiply by 19 to get 10.9212. Add .4743 to that (Columbia’s OWP) to get 11.3955. Divided by 20, it is .5698.

Alright.

We now have the three numbers:

Memphis AWP: .7530.
Memphis OWP: .5781
Memphis OOWP: .5698.

Since the OWP is weighed twice, we will add the .7530 + (2*.5781) + .5698 to get 2.4790. Divided by four, that is .6198.

So, previous to this, Memphis RPI was .6193. The new RPI of .6198 does NOT even advance Memphis one spot in the RPI.

22. New Mexico 0.6226
23. Saint Louis 0.6199
24. Memphis 0.6198
25 Colorado 0.6191


This should once and for all put to rest the premise set forth in the OP.

(01-31-2014 03:22 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:21 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:14 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:01 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  But isn't it crazy that we actually DID play a +200 team and our RPI went up 11 points?

That didn't happen in a vacuum, though. It helps that we beat them on the road, that a lot of our other opponents got wins as welll (and I assume, a lot of our opponents' opponents did well), and that some teams around us lost.

Had our opponents all have lost, our RPI would've taken a dramatic plunge I bet, despite our win.

He doesn't understand the concept that a road win is more than twice as valuable as a home win. So that more than makes up for the SOS hit you get at times.

Are you still arguing about how a single win against Kansas is no different than a single win against Presbyterian?

WHO you play matters...NOT WHO YOU BEAT....I am sure you understand this but you are as stubborn as a bull and enjoy arguing even if you are wrong.

So is the WHO you play the same if you play 2 different teams...Not that hard.

Why are you still talking about playing 2 teams? You're arguing with yourself and you apparently enjoy it.

(01-31-2014 03:37 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 02:42 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  There are too many loose variables. I'd like to find a site that has shows your opponent's composite records and opponent's opponent's composite records so I could do an accurate calculation. I don't have the time to cull through that myself.

This will hopefully put some rest to the nonsense.

Ok Columbia is the RPI 150 as for WarrenNolan.

In order to calculate what Memphis’ rpi would be after a win vs. 150RPI (and remember the premise was a 10+ point jump in a LO replacement game) we need to get Memphis AWP and Opp w % and opp-opp win %.

Memphis’ current AWP is .7530. After the home win, it goes up to .7609. Hold onto that.

We then have to figure out Columbia’s new metrics. Their AWP will drop (after the loss) from .6667 to .6400. Their opp win % (by virtue of playing Memphis) will go up from .4584 to .4743.

Ok, now we look at Memphis’ 50% OWP category. Columbia’s .6400 will serve as 1/20th (number of games now played) of that stat. The previous rating was .5748 (based upon combined SOS, but that will suffice) times 19 (games played) is 10.9212. Add that to .6400 to get 11.5612 and then divide by 20 to get the new 50% OWP of .5781.

Finally, to get the 25% OOWP, we take the .5748, again multiply by 19 to get 10.9212. Add .4743 to that (Columbia’s OWP) to get 11.3955. Divided by 20, it is .5698.

Alright.

We now have the three numbers:

Memphis AWP: .7530.
Memphis OWP: .5781
Memphis OOWP: .5698.

Since the OWP is weighed twice, we will add the .7530 + (2*.5781) + .5698 to get 2.4790. Divided by four, that is .6198.

So, previous to this, Memphis RPI was .6193. The new RPI of .6198 does NOT even advance Memphis one spot in the RPI.

22. New Mexico 0.6226
23. Saint Louis 0.6199
24. Memphis 0.6198
25 Colorado 0.6191


This should once and for all put to rest the premise set forth in the OP.

What would it have been when we were at 35 and if we played on a neutral court?

(01-31-2014 03:37 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  This will hopefully put some rest to the nonsense.

Ok Columbia is the RPI 150 as for WarrenNolan.

In order to calculate what Memphis’ rpi would be after a win vs. 150RPI (and remember the premise was a 10+ point jump in a LO replacement game) we need to get Memphis AWP and Opp w % and opp-opp win %.

Memphis’ current AWP is .7530. After the home win, it goes up to .7609. Hold onto that.

We then have to figure out Columbia’s new metrics. Their AWP will drop (after the loss) from .6667 to .6400. Their opp win % (by virtue of playing Memphis) will go up from .4584 to .4743.

Ok, now we look at Memphis’ 50% OWP category. Columbia’s .6400 will serve as 1/20th (number of games now played) of that stat. The previous rating was .5748 (based upon combined SOS, but that will suffice) times 19 (games played) is 10.9212. Add that to .6400 to get 11.5612 and then divide by 20 to get the new 50% OWP of .5781.

Finally, to get the 25% OOWP, we take the .5748, again multiply by 19 to get 10.9212. Add .4743 to that (Columbia’s OWP) to get 11.3955. Divided by 20, it is .5698.

Alright.

We now have the three numbers:

Memphis AWP: .7530.
Memphis OWP: .5781
Memphis OOWP: .5698.

Since the OWP is weighed twice, we will add the .7530 + (2*.5781) + .5698 to get 2.4790. Divided by four, that is .6198.

So, previous to this, Memphis RPI was .6193. The new RPI of .6198 does NOT even advance Memphis one spot in the RPI.

22. New Mexico 0.6226
23. Saint Louis 0.6199
24. Memphis 0.6198
25 Colorado 0.6191


This should once and for all put to rest the premise set forth in the OP.

Although the math looks like it's based on several assumptions (the OOWP section especially), the reasoning is sound. That's about what I expected.

Even Stammers is not this obtuse, I'm not sure when he realized he was wrong, but at some point he knew he was beat and just started to troll.

For the record, here's a primer on fewer vs. less:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/wor...s-or-fewer

(01-31-2014 04:13 PM)NigelTufnel Wrote:  Even Stammers is not this obtuse, I'm not sure when he realized he was wrong, but at some point he knew he was beat and just started to troll.

For the record, here's a primer on fewer vs. less:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/wor...s-or-fewer

Here is what the dictionary says...

Quote:noun

a smaller amount or quantity: Hundreds of soldiers arrived, but less of them remained.

(01-31-2014 04:15 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 04:13 PM)NigelTufnel Wrote:  Even Stammers is not this obtuse, I'm not sure when he realized he was wrong, but at some point he knew he was beat and just started to troll.

For the record, here's a primer on fewer vs. less:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/wor...s-or-fewer

Here is what the dictionary says...

Quote:noun

a smaller amount or quantity: Hundreds of soldiers arrived, but less of them remained.

"Use less when you’re referring to something that can’t be counted or doesn’t have a plural."

Umm, obviously games CAN be counted, because the purpose of the OP was that you counted the number of games and realized Memphis had played FEWER than Iowa.

Rough day, huh?

(01-31-2014 03:44 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:22 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:21 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:14 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:01 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  That didn't happen in a vacuum, though. It helps that we beat them on the road, that a lot of our other opponents got wins as welll (and I assume, a lot of our opponents' opponents did well), and that some teams around us lost.

Had our opponents all have lost, our RPI would've taken a dramatic plunge I bet, despite our win.

He doesn't understand the concept that a road win is more than twice as valuable as a home win. So that more than makes up for the SOS hit you get at times.

Are you still arguing about how a single win against Kansas is no different than a single win against Presbyterian?

WHO you play matters...NOT WHO YOU BEAT....I am sure you understand this but you are as stubborn as a bull and enjoy arguing even if you are wrong.

So is the WHO you play the same if you play 2 different teams...Not that hard.

Why are you still talking about playing 2 teams? You're arguing with yourself and you apparently enjoy it.

Your argument is dumb...We said it matters who you play then give 2 different teams and act like you made a point...You are just pitiful and have need some meds.

(01-31-2014 06:15 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:44 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:22 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:21 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:14 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  He doesn't understand the concept that a road win is more than twice as valuable as a home win. So that more than makes up for the SOS hit you get at times.

Are you still arguing about how a single win against Kansas is no different than a single win against Presbyterian?

WHO you play matters...NOT WHO YOU BEAT....I am sure you understand this but you are as stubborn as a bull and enjoy arguing even if you are wrong.

So is the WHO you play the same if you play 2 different teams...Not that hard.

Why are you still talking about playing 2 teams? You're arguing with yourself and you apparently enjoy it.

Your argument is dumb...We said it matters who you play then give 2 different teams and act like you made a point...You are just pitiful and have need some meds.

What is pitiful is that you losers think that a win against Kansas is the same as a win against Presbyterian...and you keep arguing about it. Guess the weekend drinking started early.

(02-01-2014 01:15 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 06:15 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:44 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:22 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:21 PM)Stammers Wrote:  Are you still arguing about how a single win against Kansas is no different than a single win against Presbyterian?

WHO you play matters...NOT WHO YOU BEAT....I am sure you understand this but you are as stubborn as a bull and enjoy arguing even if you are wrong.

So is the WHO you play the same if you play 2 different teams...Not that hard.

Why are you still talking about playing 2 teams? You're arguing with yourself and you apparently enjoy it.

Your argument is dumb...We said it matters who you play then give 2 different teams and act like you made a point...You are just pitiful and have need some meds.

What is pitiful is that you losers think that a win against Kansas is the same as a win against Presbyterian...and you keep arguing about it. Guess the weekend drinking started early.

No one has said that.

Now I'm torn, I thought he was trolling, but now I'm leaning toward just not very bright.

(02-01-2014 01:28 PM)NigelTufnel Wrote:  

(02-01-2014 01:15 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 06:15 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:44 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:22 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  WHO you play matters...NOT WHO YOU BEAT....I am sure you understand this but you are as stubborn as a bull and enjoy arguing even if you are wrong.

So is the WHO you play the same if you play 2 different teams...Not that hard.

Why are you still talking about playing 2 teams? You're arguing with yourself and you apparently enjoy it.

Your argument is dumb...We said it matters who you play then give 2 different teams and act like you made a point...You are just pitiful and have need some meds.

What is pitiful is that you losers think that a win against Kansas is the same as a win against Presbyterian...and you keep arguing about it. Guess the weekend drinking started early.

No one has said that.

Now I'm torn, I thought he was trolling, but now I'm leaning toward just not very bright.

They keep saying it over and over, which makes you even more dumb than they are.

(02-01-2014 04:49 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-01-2014 01:28 PM)NigelTufnel Wrote:  

(02-01-2014 01:15 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 06:15 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:44 PM)Stammers Wrote:  Why are you still talking about playing 2 teams? You're arguing with yourself and you apparently enjoy it.

Your argument is dumb...We said it matters who you play then give 2 different teams and act like you made a point...You are just pitiful and have need some meds.

What is pitiful is that you losers think that a win against Kansas is the same as a win against Presbyterian...and you keep arguing about it. Guess the weekend drinking started early.

No one has said that.

Now I'm torn, I thought he was trolling, but now I'm leaning toward just not very bright.

They keep saying it over and over, which makes you even more dumb than they are.

What they are saying is evidently too complicated for you. If you continue to believe your OP was accurate, it is certain that you have a fundamental misunderstanding as to how the RPI works. But that's okay, it's math, that can be hard for some people.

So.... Are we still behind a game? And will we ever catch up?

(01-31-2014 01:30 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-30-2014 10:27 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-30-2014 10:22 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-30-2014 10:18 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  As simple as this.

Michigan State 19-2 with a 9 SOS. #4 in RPI.

Villanova is 18-2 with a 13 SOS. #3 in RPI.

According to your plug an play logic, MSU, with more wins and same losses, AND a higher SOS would have to have a higer RPI than Villanova.

They don't.

There is more to it that raw w/l and SOS.

There is, but the variance is so small, a place or two here or there. Like I said, maybe we would be in the low teens, maybe we would be in the high 20's.

Flip those 2 home losses to road losses and that essentially means you have 1.6 less losses on your resume. That is the difference you are trying to make it too simple. SOS does not factor in where you play your adjusted winning % does.

That's all fine and dandy; but the difference regardless is minute. Show me an example where two top 50 teams have identical records, with the team with a lower SOS having a higher RPI by more than a few spots, and I will buy what you're selling. It just doesn't happen.

Sh1ts and Giggles

VCU SOS 83 RPI 26
Louiville SOS 82 RPI 35

Both 18-4

So are you buying now.