(01-18-2014 07:15 PM)GoApps70 Wrote: Think it's really fascinating that some people never see any harm in having somewhere between 11,000,000 and 35,000,000 people illegally in this country. Seems as if because some Americans built up this country before they were even born that we can afford to
be as altruistic as any of them want us to be toward people literally running away from their country.
if you want to prevent illegal immigration punish the people that hire them.
That may already be taking effect. My cleaning lady (legal), says folks in her hometown in Mexico have lost interest in coming to work here. Not enough folks are hiring them (except in Oklahoma, apparently).
2 of my closest friends are also Border Patrol supervising agents. They also say the flow has dramatically decreased.
In the end, if someone is dirt poor and has children lacking food, clothing, education, or housing, they will care little about laws, borders, patriotism, etc., and will do what it takes to provide those items to their wife and kids...... I would, and assume most if not all would do the same.
I'm a proud American, but it wouldn't mean a thing to me if my kids needed me to provide.
You are just the enabler. People like you only make excuses. Thanks for the sob story, but that is not America;s responsibility. It's not the People's responsibility. It is Mexico's responsibility.
I also ready to bet you live no where near the border.
The nonsense about illegals all going home is just that, nonsense.
(01-17-2014 11:58 PM)dawgitall Wrote: You don't know what you are talking about. You stereotype everybody and try to make everything fit neatly into your preconceived notions. But if that makes you feel more secure that is your problem.
Oh stop. The problem has gotten so bad because people like yourself want to play the stereotyping game. It's clear what your family member is doing. There are countless companies doing the same.
Your problem is that you never seem to be able to see any issue from any angle but your party line. Issues are more complex than that and real life doesn't fit neatly into the little boxes you try to put everything into. You say, "people like yourself" but you don't know me at all, or my family member, or his business yet you insist that you do.
My party has nothing to do with how I feel about illegal immigration.
There is no other angle. There are those who acknowledge the problem, and there are those who exploit the problem. There is no gray area.
But you think that anyone that works construction and speaks Spanish is illegal and they aren't.
(01-18-2014 09:21 PM)Ole Blue Wrote: We had a very interesting conversation about this just this past Thursday in a class I'm enrolled in. The main reason that illegal immigrants come here is the search of the American Dream, to provide for their families in poor nations, and to make a better life. Honestly, that's where our roots are from regardless of race/ethnicity. That's why you move to America.
Another key point that was quite true is the lack of a real number of illegals in the nation. How do you scientifically factually say that number? You can't go based on deportations, as that is too low, and it seems both sets of estimates -- high and low -- are extremely biased. Perhaps the true number is somewhere in the median of all that but still, estimation of illegal immigrants in America is a very inexact science.
People have lived and made a living where they are, and fed their families, for hundreds if not thousands of years.
There is no necessity of their sneaking into this country. Greed may make them do it. The chance to make more money,
but has little to do with eating.
Besides, the left will send them every dime we can borrow from China to help them in their original countries.
Say what you will but we are not getting the rocket scientists illegally invading our country. Most of those people have been able
to build lives where they are and do something with those lives. This invasion of foreigners will only diminish us.
I honestly don't believe that the "foreign invasion" is the main reason for us diminishing. Throughout our history, foreigners coming to our shores willing to work their ass off has actually helped strengthened us. I see that same willingness to work in large numbers of the Hispanics coming today.
I see the far bigger problem today is politicians viewing both immigrants and those on the bottom economically as nothing more than a vote. The preferred method of garnering that vote is to "give" taxpayer funds in the form of "services" and money without requiring anything in return. This has the effect of making folks believe that there is such a thing as a free lunch. It does nothing but kill any spirit and drive to succeed.
We are hastening our demise by our "helping hand" delivery method by not "teaching to fish", instead just "giving fish".
(01-18-2014 09:21 PM)Ole Blue Wrote: We had a very interesting conversation about this just this past Thursday in a class I'm enrolled in. The main reason that illegal immigrants come here is the search of the American Dream, to provide for their families in poor nations, and to make a better life. Honestly, that's where our roots are from regardless of race/ethnicity. That's why you move to America.
Another key point that was quite true is the lack of a real number of illegals in the nation. How do you scientifically factually say that number? You can't go based on deportations, as that is too low, and it seems both sets of estimates -- high and low -- are extremely biased. Perhaps the true number is somewhere in the median of all that but still, estimation of illegal immigrants in America is a very inexact science.
People have lived and made a living where they are, and fed their families, for hundreds if not thousands of years.
There is no necessity of their sneaking into this country. Greed may make them do it. The chance to make more money,
but has little to do with eating.
Besides, the left will send them every dime we can borrow from China to help them in their original countries.
Say what you will but we are not getting the rocket scientists illegally invading our country. Most of those people have been able
to build lives where they are and do something with those lives. This invasion of foreigners will only diminish us.
This nation was built on people coming here search of a better life and there has always been controversy and tension over who, how many, and how they immigrate here. It is a complex issue.
(01-18-2014 09:21 PM)Ole Blue Wrote: We had a very interesting conversation about this just this past Thursday in a class I'm enrolled in. The main reason that illegal immigrants come here is the search of the American Dream, to provide for their families in poor nations, and to make a better life. Honestly, that's where our roots are from regardless of race/ethnicity. That's why you move to America.
Another key point that was quite true is the lack of a real number of illegals in the nation. How do you scientifically factually say that number? You can't go based on deportations, as that is too low, and it seems both sets of estimates -- high and low -- are extremely biased. Perhaps the true number is somewhere in the median of all that but still, estimation of illegal immigrants in America is a very inexact science.
People have lived and made a living where they are, and fed their families, for hundreds if not thousands of years.
There is no necessity of their sneaking into this country. Greed may make them do it. The chance to make more money,
but has little to do with eating.
Besides, the left will send them every dime we can borrow from China to help them in their original countries.
Say what you will but we are not getting the rocket scientists illegally invading our country. Most of those people have been able
to build lives where they are and do something with those lives. This invasion of foreigners will only diminish us.
I honestly don't believe that the "foreign invasion" is the main reason for us diminishing. Throughout our history, foreigners coming to our shores willing to work their ass off has actually helped strengthened us. I see that same willingness to work in large numbers of the Hispanics coming today.
I see the far bigger problem today is politicians viewing both immigrants and those on the bottom economically as nothing more than a vote. The preferred method of garnering that vote is to "give" taxpayer funds in the form of "services" and money without requiring anything in return. This has the effect of making folks believe that there is such a thing as a free lunch. It does nothing but kill any spirit and drive to succeed.
We are hastening our demise by our "helping hand" delivery method by not "teaching to fish", instead just "giving fish".
Or we could just come out and say the Democrats are setting out milk and cookies for more illegals to enter our country. IE drivers licenses, food stamps, in state tuition and the list goes on.
Traitorous business owners are giving them jobs. We have a system that allows skilled workers to come to this country. Illegal immigration is not a result of our "broken" system. It has to do with the corrupt system in Mexico and our unwillingness to secure our border.
(01-18-2014 09:21 PM)Ole Blue Wrote: We had a very interesting conversation about this just this past Thursday in a class I'm enrolled in. The main reason that illegal immigrants come here is the search of the American Dream, to provide for their families in poor nations, and to make a better life. Honestly, that's where our roots are from regardless of race/ethnicity. That's why you move to America.
Another key point that was quite true is the lack of a real number of illegals in the nation. How do you scientifically factually say that number? You can't go based on deportations, as that is too low, and it seems both sets of estimates -- high and low -- are extremely biased. Perhaps the true number is somewhere in the median of all that but still, estimation of illegal immigrants in America is a very inexact science.
People have lived and made a living where they are, and fed their families, for hundreds if not thousands of years.
There is no necessity of their sneaking into this country. Greed may make them do it. The chance to make more money,
but has little to do with eating.
Besides, the left will send them every dime we can borrow from China to help them in their original countries.
Say what you will but we are not getting the rocket scientists illegally invading our country. Most of those people have been able
to build lives where they are and do something with those lives. This invasion of foreigners will only diminish us.
This nation was built on people coming here search of a better life and there has always been controversy and tension over who, how many, and how they immigrate here. It is a complex issue.
(01-18-2014 09:21 PM)Ole Blue Wrote: We had a very interesting conversation about this just this past Thursday in a class I'm enrolled in. The main reason that illegal immigrants come here is the search of the American Dream, to provide for their families in poor nations, and to make a better life. Honestly, that's where our roots are from regardless of race/ethnicity. That's why you move to America.
Another key point that was quite true is the lack of a real number of illegals in the nation. How do you scientifically factually say that number? You can't go based on deportations, as that is too low, and it seems both sets of estimates -- high and low -- are extremely biased. Perhaps the true number is somewhere in the median of all that but still, estimation of illegal immigrants in America is a very inexact science.
People have lived and made a living where they are, and fed their families, for hundreds if not thousands of years.
There is no necessity of their sneaking into this country. Greed may make them do it. The chance to make more money,
but has little to do with eating.
Besides, the left will send them every dime we can borrow from China to help them in their original countries.
Say what you will but we are not getting the rocket scientists illegally invading our country. Most of those people have been able
to build lives where they are and do something with those lives. This invasion of foreigners will only diminish us.
This nation was built on people coming here search of a better life and there has always been controversy and tension over who, how many, and how they immigrate here. It is a complex issue.
(01-18-2014 09:21 PM)Ole Blue Wrote: We had a very interesting conversation about this just this past Thursday in a class I'm enrolled in. The main reason that illegal immigrants come here is the search of the American Dream, to provide for their families in poor nations, and to make a better life. Honestly, that's where our roots are from regardless of race/ethnicity. That's why you move to America.
Another key point that was quite true is the lack of a real number of illegals in the nation. How do you scientifically factually say that number? You can't go based on deportations, as that is too low, and it seems both sets of estimates -- high and low -- are extremely biased. Perhaps the true number is somewhere in the median of all that but still, estimation of illegal immigrants in America is a very inexact science.
People have lived and made a living where they are, and fed their families, for hundreds if not thousands of years.
There is no necessity of their sneaking into this country. Greed may make them do it. The chance to make more money,
but has little to do with eating.
Besides, the left will send them every dime we can borrow from China to help them in their original countries.
Say what you will but we are not getting the rocket scientists illegally invading our country. Most of those people have been able
to build lives where they are and do something with those lives. This invasion of foreigners will only diminish us.
This nation was built on people coming here search of a better life and there has always been controversy and tension over who, how many, and how they immigrate here. It is a complex issue.
Legally.,
Some were and some weren't.
The vast majority of past immigration waves - especially those coming through Ellis Island had permission to come here. I love how progressives think they can fool us by comparing illegal immigration from south of the border to the Irish and Italian immigrants of the past.
(01-18-2014 09:21 PM)Ole Blue Wrote: We had a very interesting conversation about this just this past Thursday in a class I'm enrolled in. The main reason that illegal immigrants come here is the search of the American Dream, to provide for their families in poor nations, and to make a better life. Honestly, that's where our roots are from regardless of race/ethnicity. That's why you move to America.
Another key point that was quite true is the lack of a real number of illegals in the nation. How do you scientifically factually say that number? You can't go based on deportations, as that is too low, and it seems both sets of estimates -- high and low -- are extremely biased. Perhaps the true number is somewhere in the median of all that but still, estimation of illegal immigrants in America is a very inexact science.
People have lived and made a living where they are, and fed their families, for hundreds if not thousands of years.
There is no necessity of their sneaking into this country. Greed may make them do it. The chance to make more money,
but has little to do with eating.
Besides, the left will send them every dime we can borrow from China to help them in their original countries.
Say what you will but we are not getting the rocket scientists illegally invading our country. Most of those people have been able
to build lives where they are and do something with those lives. This invasion of foreigners will only diminish us.
This nation was built on people coming here search of a better life and there has always been controversy and tension over who, how many, and how they immigrate here. It is a complex issue.
Legally.,
Controlled IS the key. That and a requirement to stay off the government dole once here for at least 10 years or get deported. As I said earlier, many of them come here and work their ass off, that willingness to work is good for our country. In a way, it's too bad we can't deport some of our generational, professional leaches that make a profession out of avoiding work. To me, the professional welfare class is a bigger detriment than illegals that work.
(01-18-2014 07:15 PM)GoApps70 Wrote: Think it's really fascinating that some people never see any harm in having somewhere between 11,000,000 and 35,000,000 people illegally in this country. Seems as if because some Americans built up this country before they were even born that we can afford to
be as altruistic as any of them want us to be toward people literally running away from their country.
if you want to prevent illegal immigration punish the people that hire them.
That may already be taking effect. My cleaning lady (legal), says folks in her hometown in Mexico have lost interest in coming to work here. Not enough folks are hiring them (except in Oklahoma, apparently).
2 of my closest friends are also Border Patrol supervising agents. They also say the flow has dramatically decreased.
In the end, if someone is dirt poor and has children lacking food, clothing, education, or housing, they will care little about laws, borders, patriotism, etc., and will do what it takes to provide those items to their wife and kids...... I would, and assume most if not all would do the same.
I'm a proud American, but it wouldn't mean a thing to me if my kids needed me to provide.
You are just the enabler. People like you only make excuses. Thanks for the sob story, but that is not America;s responsibility. It's not the People's responsibility. It is Mexico's responsibility.
I also ready to bet you live no where near the border.
The nonsense about illegals all going home is just that, nonsense.
Considering he is a UTEP alum, you just might lose that bet
(01-18-2014 07:15 PM)GoApps70 Wrote: Think it's really fascinating that some people never see any harm in having somewhere between 11,000,000 and 35,000,000 people illegally in this country. Seems as if because some Americans built up this country before they were even born that we can afford to
be as altruistic as any of them want us to be toward people literally running away from their country.
if you want to prevent illegal immigration punish the people that hire them.
That may already be taking effect. My cleaning lady (legal), says folks in her hometown in Mexico have lost interest in coming to work here. Not enough folks are hiring them (except in Oklahoma, apparently).
2 of my closest friends are also Border Patrol supervising agents. They also say the flow has dramatically decreased.
In the end, if someone is dirt poor and has children lacking food, clothing, education, or housing, they will care little about laws, borders, patriotism, etc., and will do what it takes to provide those items to their wife and kids...... I would, and assume most if not all would do the same.
I'm a proud American, but it wouldn't mean a thing to me if my kids needed me to provide.
You are just the enabler. People like you only make excuses. Thanks for the sob story, but that is not America;s responsibility. It's not the People's responsibility. It is Mexico's responsibility.
I also ready to bet you live no where near the border.
The nonsense about illegals all going home is just that, nonsense.
I live in El Paso.
I only passed along what my cleaning lady (who commutes from Mexico), and my two buddies in the Border Patrol stated to me. They said "decreased", not "all going home". But I guess your insight from Oklahoma provides a much more detailed perspective than they have.
As for enabling, I didn't say I endorse it. And I didn't say it is America's responsibility. I'm saying that if an individual has to take desperate measures to put food on the table for his family; patriotism, someone in OK giving him dirty looks, or a poster's anti-illegal immigrant rants on a message board, certainly won't keep him out.
That said, I think that if someone is going to fly something other than an American flag, they should go to whatever country they hold the flag for.
You generalize too much, and apply subjective interpretations to what you read. You seem to label any view not aligned with yours as "enabling', "excuses", and so on. You're gonna grow old and bitter at that rate.
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2014 05:20 PM by RUNVSFD MINER.)
(01-18-2014 07:15 PM)GoApps70 Wrote: Think it's really fascinating that some people never see any harm in having somewhere between 11,000,000 and 35,000,000 people illegally in this country. Seems as if because some Americans built up this country before they were even born that we can afford to
be as altruistic as any of them want us to be toward people literally running away from their country.
if you want to prevent illegal immigration punish the people that hire them.
That may already be taking effect. My cleaning lady (legal), says folks in her hometown in Mexico have lost interest in coming to work here. Not enough folks are hiring them (except in Oklahoma, apparently).
2 of my closest friends are also Border Patrol supervising agents. They also say the flow has dramatically decreased.
In the end, if someone is dirt poor and has children lacking food, clothing, education, or housing, they will care little about laws, borders, patriotism, etc., and will do what it takes to provide those items to their wife and kids...... I would, and assume most if not all would do the same.
I'm a proud American, but it wouldn't mean a thing to me if my kids needed me to provide.
You are just the enabler. People like you only make excuses. Thanks for the sob story, but that is not America;s responsibility. It's not the People's responsibility. It is Mexico's responsibility.
I also ready to bet you live no where near the border.
The nonsense about illegals [b]all going home is just that, nonsense.
I live in El Paso.
I only passed along what my cleaning lady (who commutes from Mexico), and my two buddies in the Border Patrol stated to me. They said "decreased", not "all going home". But I guess your insight from Oklahoma provides a much more detailed perspective than have.
As for enabling, I didn't say I endorse it. And I didn't say it is America's responsibility. I'm saying that if an individual has to take desperate measures to put food on the table for his family; patriotism, someone in OK giving him dirty looks, or a poster's anti-illegal immigrant rants on a message board, certainly won't keep him out.
That said, I think that if someone is going to fly something other than an American flag, they should go to whatever country they hold the flag for.
You generalize too much, and apply subjective interpretations to what you read. You seem to label any view not aligned with yours as "enabling', "excuses", and so on. You're gonna grow old and bitter at that rate.
So you live in El Paso, a town that borders Juarez and you want to apply your reality to mine. As if you could even tell if illegals are going home without making the same generalizations you are accusing me of.
We are a country of laws. We are also a sovereign nation. We are not the world's homeless shelter, nor are we the worlds dumping ground. It is not our responsibility to improve the conditions in Mexico, nor is it our fault they are coming here. They have caused massive economic turmoil and they do indeed take jobs that would normally go to American citizens. I think it is a given that they are trying to feed their families. That is not an excuse to allow the problem to continue - nor does it put pressure on Mexico to improve its situation.
(01-19-2014 05:22 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote: So you live in El Paso, a town that borders Juarez and you want to apply your reality to mine. As if you could even tell if illegals are going home without making the same generalizations you are accusing me of.
We are a country of laws. We are also a sovereign nation. We are not the world's homeless shelter, nor are we the worlds dumping ground. It is not our responsibility to improve the conditions in Mexico, nor is it our fault they are coming here. They have caused massive economic turmoil and they do indeed take jobs that would normally go to American citizens. I think it is a given that they are trying to feed their families. That is not an excuse to allow the problem to continue - nor does it put pressure on Mexico to improve its situation.
Well I'm sure sports message board rants will achieve it.... Carry on, my good man!
(01-19-2014 05:22 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote: So you live in El Paso, a town that borders Juarez and you want to apply your reality to mine. As if you could even tell if illegals are going home without making the same generalizations you are accusing me of.
We are a country of laws. We are also a sovereign nation. We are not the world's homeless shelter, nor are we the worlds dumping ground. It is not our responsibility to improve the conditions in Mexico, nor is it our fault they are coming here. They have caused massive economic turmoil and they do indeed take jobs that would normally go to American citizens. I think it is a given that they are trying to feed their families. That is not an excuse to allow the problem to continue - nor does it put pressure on Mexico to improve its situation.
Well I'm sure sports message board rants will achieve it.... Carry on, my good man!
(01-19-2014 05:22 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote: So you live in El Paso, a town that borders Juarez and you want to apply your reality to mine. As if you could even tell if illegals are going home without making the same generalizations you are accusing me of.
We are a country of laws. We are also a sovereign nation. We are not the world's homeless shelter, nor are we the worlds dumping ground. It is not our responsibility to improve the conditions in Mexico, nor is it our fault they are coming here. They have caused massive economic turmoil and they do indeed take jobs that would normally go to American citizens. I think it is a given that they are trying to feed their families. That is not an excuse to allow the problem to continue - nor does it put pressure on Mexico to improve its situation.
Well I'm sure sports message board rants will achieve it.... Carry on, my good man!
Spreading the truth is never an act of futility.
So long as someone is listening, and it really is the truth.
(01-19-2014 05:22 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote: So you live in El Paso, a town that borders Juarez and you want to apply your reality to mine. As if you could even tell if illegals are going home without making the same generalizations you are accusing me of.
We are a country of laws. We are also a sovereign nation. We are not the world's homeless shelter, nor are we the worlds dumping ground. It is not our responsibility to improve the conditions in Mexico, nor is it our fault they are coming here. They have caused massive economic turmoil and they do indeed take jobs that would normally go to American citizens. I think it is a given that they are trying to feed their families. That is not an excuse to allow the problem to continue - nor does it put pressure on Mexico to improve its situation.
Well I'm sure sports message board rants will achieve it.... Carry on, my good man!
Spreading the truth is never an act of futility.
So long as someone is listening, and it really is the truth.
You are welcome to disprove anything I have said. We can play the politically correct game while the problem continues, or we can acknowledge that if it walks like a dog and barks like a dog, it's probably a dog.
As for the claim they are leaving in droves, that's not happening here or anywhere that I know of.
So if some country has it better, all you have to do is sneak into that country.
Don't stop at the border and get permission, just bust on in and take up residence.
National borders, and the law, mean nothing to you.
If that's the case, they should all be removed ASAP.
(01-19-2014 10:17 PM)GoApps70 Wrote: So if some country has it better, all you have to do is sneak into that country.
Don't stop at the border and get permission, just bust on in and take up residence.
National borders, and the law, mean nothing to you.
If that's the case, they should all be removed ASAP.
Yep, I have no issue with folks coming over to grab their piece of the "American Dream"; however, they need to do it legally.
(01-19-2014 10:17 PM)GoApps70 Wrote: So if some country has it better, all you have to do is sneak into that country.
Don't stop at the border and get permission, just bust on in and take up residence.
National borders, and the law, mean nothing to you.
If that's the case, they should all be removed ASAP.
Yep, I have no issue with folks coming over to grab their piece of the "American Dream"; however, they need to do it legally.
I think we all agree with that....
(This post was last modified: 01-20-2014 10:44 PM by RUNVSFD MINER.)
Your problem is that you never seem to be able to see any issue from any angle but your party line. Issues are more complex than that and real life doesn't fit neatly into the little boxes you try to put everything into. You say, "people like yourself" but you don't know me at all, or my family member, or his business yet you insist that you do. 
