(01-08-2014 06:32 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 10:41 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 08:12 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 07:25 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 06:49 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Maybe it's not true on the white board in a classroom.

In the real world, it's absolutely true.



In theory, theory works well in practice. In practice, it doesn't.

No it's not. It's dumb to say so.

So...a businesses taxes are not figured into it's overhead? Since when?

You don't need a high priced college education to know this. It is common sense.

Taxes are not part of overhead, and that's irrelevant to the discussion anyway. As I said before, it's shocking how little some people know about economics. They teach the applicable principles in any introductory micro class.

Your class failed you. Tax burden is most surely use as part of pricing good and services of ANY business...unless they are just plain stupid.

In most cases it is not. You're truly ignorant on the subject.

(01-08-2014 01:42 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 06:32 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 10:41 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 08:12 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 07:25 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  No it's not. It's dumb to say so.

So...a businesses taxes are not figured into it's overhead? Since when?

You don't need a high priced college education to know this. It is common sense.

Taxes are not part of overhead, and that's irrelevant to the discussion anyway. As I said before, it's shocking how little some people know about economics. They teach the applicable principles in any introductory micro class.

Your class failed you. Tax burden is most surely use as part of pricing good and services of ANY business...unless they are just plain stupid.

In most cases it is not. You're truly ignorant on the subject.

You state this with conviction. Care to provide some sort of evidence that bears this out?

How many businesses have you owned or run over the years? This should be good. Once again.

(01-08-2014 03:33 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 01:42 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 06:32 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 10:41 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 08:12 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  So...a businesses taxes are not figured into it's overhead? Since when?

You don't need a high priced college education to know this. It is common sense.

Taxes are not part of overhead, and that's irrelevant to the discussion anyway. As I said before, it's shocking how little some people know about economics. They teach the applicable principles in any introductory micro class.

Your class failed you. Tax burden is most surely use as part of pricing good and services of ANY business...unless they are just plain stupid.

In most cases it is not. You're truly ignorant on the subject.

You state this with conviction. Care to provide some sort of evidence that bears this out?

How many businesses have you owned or run over the years? This should be good. Once again.

I state it with conviction because it is true. So tell me, is there anything that constrains businesses from passing on any increase in the cost of their products or services?

As for your other question, I only own one business - my consulting practice. I've consulted hundreds of businesses on the very sort of thing we are discussing, I've been an expert witness in trials discussing the very sort of thing we're talking about, and I've taught thousands (if not tens of thousands) of students regarding the very sort of thing we're talking about. The question of whether businesses can pass on increases in their costs is not a complex question at all. It's stunning that none of you right wingers know how to properly address the question, and it's sad that you all seem to revel in your ignorance.

Lol. Figured as much. You're an academic, hunh? As exhibited, a poor one, but they exist all to often as well.

So, tell me again since my right winger brain don't follow so easy- what evidence do you have other than the fact that you've supposedly burdened thousands of unsuspecting kids with this fallacy?

Any, you know, real evidence? And no, your expert witness-ness on this "sort" of thing isn't real evidence. hahaha

(01-08-2014 05:02 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 03:33 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 01:42 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 06:32 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 10:41 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  Taxes are not part of overhead, and that's irrelevant to the discussion anyway. As I said before, it's shocking how little some people know about economics. They teach the applicable principles in any introductory micro class.

Your class failed you. Tax burden is most surely use as part of pricing good and services of ANY business...unless they are just plain stupid.

In most cases it is not. You're truly ignorant on the subject.

You state this with conviction. Care to provide some sort of evidence that bears this out?

How many businesses have you owned or run over the years? This should be good. Once again.

I state it with conviction because it is true. So tell me, is there anything that constrains businesses from passing on any increase in the cost of their products or services?

As for your other question, I only own one business - my consulting practice. I've consulted hundreds of businesses on the very sort of thing we are discussing, I've been an expert witness in trials discussing the very sort of thing we're talking about, and I've taught thousands (if not tens of thousands) of students regarding the very sort of thing we're talking about. The question of whether businesses can pass on increases in their costs is not a complex question at all. It's stunning that none of you right wingers know how to properly address the question, and it's sad that you all seem to revel in your ignorance.

When you decide how to initially price a product...you figure your tax burden into that computation along with dozens of other costs. Without this? You have no idea what your margins will be. You may certainly decide not to include ANY expense for whatever reason as long as you understand that you will not have an accurate basis for pricing.

(01-08-2014 05:57 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 05:02 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 03:33 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 01:42 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 06:32 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Your class failed you. Tax burden is most surely use as part of pricing good and services of ANY business...unless they are just plain stupid.

In most cases it is not. You're truly ignorant on the subject.

You state this with conviction. Care to provide some sort of evidence that bears this out?

How many businesses have you owned or run over the years? This should be good. Once again.

I state it with conviction because it is true. So tell me, is there anything that constrains businesses from passing on any increase in the cost of their products or services?

As for your other question, I only own one business - my consulting practice. I've consulted hundreds of businesses on the very sort of thing we are discussing, I've been an expert witness in trials discussing the very sort of thing we're talking about, and I've taught thousands (if not tens of thousands) of students regarding the very sort of thing we're talking about. The question of whether businesses can pass on increases in their costs is not a complex question at all. It's stunning that none of you right wingers know how to properly address the question, and it's sad that you all seem to revel in your ignorance.

When you decide how to initially price a product...you figure your tax burden into that computation along with dozens of other costs. Without this? You have no idea what your margins will be. You may certainly decide not to include ANY expense for whatever reason as long as you understand that you will not have an accurate basis for pricing.

Do you think you can do this sort of pricing when you're putting your product or service into an already established market with competitors?

Why would a business, any business, not include the cost of government taxation when pricing their product or service?

How is that expense different from any other expense (Freight, cogs, warehousing, etc) that a company passes on to the final consumer?

(01-08-2014 11:49 PM)ODUsmitty Wrote:  Why would a business, any business, not include the cost of government taxation when pricing their product or service?

How is that expense different from any other expense (Freight, cogs, warehousing, etc) that a company passes on to the final consumer?

So how are taxes different? And do businesses just get to decide what to pass on to consumers?

They are not. They are the cost of doing business, just like materials, labor, overhead, etc.

Businesses set prices to make a profit (covering all costs), or they will be out of business. Pretty simple, Socrates. Don't make enough to be profitable, then you go out of business (unless you are GM...).

The era of "optimization" is largely over. Productivity gains have been acheived and that radish has little juice left.

(01-09-2014 12:18 AM)ODUsmitty Wrote:  They are not. They are the cost of doing business, just like materials, labor, overhead, etc.

Businesses set prices to make a profit (covering all costs), or they will be out of business. Pretty simple, Socrates. Don't make enough to be profitable, then you go out of business (unless you are GM...).

The era of "optimization" is largely over. Productivity gains have been acheived and that radish has little juice left.

So simple, huh? Explain how businesses set prices.

tomorrow .

(01-09-2014 12:33 AM)ODUsmitty Wrote:  tomorrow .

Yeah. You clearly need a little time to read up on it. Best of luck.

(01-09-2014 12:30 AM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-09-2014 12:18 AM)ODUsmitty Wrote:  They are not. They are the cost of doing business, just like materials, labor, overhead, etc.

Businesses set prices to make a profit (covering all costs), or they will be out of business. Pretty simple, Socrates. Don't make enough to be profitable, then you go out of business (unless you are GM...).

The era of "optimization" is largely over. Productivity gains have been acheived and that radish has little juice left.

So simple, huh? Explain how businesses set prices.

Trollololololol.

Haha, tell you what, those whocan do, do2001. While we're all scrambling for our right wing, real life playbook, why don' you enlighten us poor misguided right wingers on how "a business sets prices"?

This oughta be priceless. Literally and figuratively. lol.

You need to ask, no beg, for a refund.

(01-08-2014 11:41 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 05:57 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 05:02 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 03:33 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 01:42 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  In most cases it is not. You're truly ignorant on the subject.

You state this with conviction. Care to provide some sort of evidence that bears this out?

How many businesses have you owned or run over the years? This should be good. Once again.

I state it with conviction because it is true. So tell me, is there anything that constrains businesses from passing on any increase in the cost of their products or services?

As for your other question, I only own one business - my consulting practice. I've consulted hundreds of businesses on the very sort of thing we are discussing, I've been an expert witness in trials discussing the very sort of thing we're talking about, and I've taught thousands (if not tens of thousands) of students regarding the very sort of thing we're talking about. The question of whether businesses can pass on increases in their costs is not a complex question at all. It's stunning that none of you right wingers know how to properly address the question, and it's sad that you all seem to revel in your ignorance.

When you decide how to initially price a product...you figure your tax burden into that computation along with dozens of other costs. Without this? You have no idea what your margins will be. You may certainly decide not to include ANY expense for whatever reason as long as you understand that you will not have an accurate basis for pricing.

Do you think you can do this sort of pricing when you're putting your product or service into an already established market with competitors?

I see no reason why not. I have to know what my margins are. I may choose to lower or raise my margins arbitrarily. I still had damn better well know what my costs are. I can't put a figure on my profit margin with knowing my costs. I understand that I will have to use an educated guess at first on many upfront costs due to not knowing the exact numbers. Taxes would be one of those items. That does not mean I won't do due diligence and try to estimate as close as possible those costs up front in my pricing.

(01-09-2014 06:40 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 11:41 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 05:57 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 05:02 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 03:33 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  You state this with conviction. Care to provide some sort of evidence that bears this out?

How many businesses have you owned or run over the years? This should be good. Once again.

I state it with conviction because it is true. So tell me, is there anything that constrains businesses from passing on any increase in the cost of their products or services?

As for your other question, I only own one business - my consulting practice. I've consulted hundreds of businesses on the very sort of thing we are discussing, I've been an expert witness in trials discussing the very sort of thing we're talking about, and I've taught thousands (if not tens of thousands) of students regarding the very sort of thing we're talking about. The question of whether businesses can pass on increases in their costs is not a complex question at all. It's stunning that none of you right wingers know how to properly address the question, and it's sad that you all seem to revel in your ignorance.

When you decide how to initially price a product...you figure your tax burden into that computation along with dozens of other costs. Without this? You have no idea what your margins will be. You may certainly decide not to include ANY expense for whatever reason as long as you understand that you will not have an accurate basis for pricing.

Do you think you can do this sort of pricing when you're putting your product or service into an already established market with competitors?

I see no reason why not. I have to know what my margins are. I may choose to lower or raise my margins arbitrarily. I still had damn better well know what my costs are. I can't put a figure on my profit margin with knowing my costs. I understand that I will have to use an educated guess at first on many upfront costs due to not knowing the exact numbers. Taxes would be one of those items. That does not mean I won't do due diligence and try to estimate as close as possible those costs up front in my pricing.

I'll help you out a little bit. It's a rare case when a business gets to dictate its profit margin. Only when a business has product/service with no close substitutes and highly inelastic demand can they price in such a way to produce the margin they want. I certainly teach how to do that, but I make it clear that very, very few products are priced in that manner.

So let that soak in for a few minutes and see if you can't figure out why businesses don't just get to pass on every cost increase to the consumer.

(01-08-2014 11:41 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 05:57 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 05:02 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 03:33 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 01:42 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  In most cases it is not. You're truly ignorant on the subject.

You state this with conviction. Care to provide some sort of evidence that bears this out?

How many businesses have you owned or run over the years? This should be good. Once again.

I state it with conviction because it is true. So tell me, is there anything that constrains businesses from passing on any increase in the cost of their products or services?

As for your other question, I only own one business - my consulting practice. I've consulted hundreds of businesses on the very sort of thing we are discussing, I've been an expert witness in trials discussing the very sort of thing we're talking about, and I've taught thousands (if not tens of thousands) of students regarding the very sort of thing we're talking about. The question of whether businesses can pass on increases in their costs is not a complex question at all. It's stunning that none of you right wingers know how to properly address the question, and it's sad that you all seem to revel in your ignorance.

When you decide how to initially price a product...you figure your tax burden into that computation along with dozens of other costs. Without this? You have no idea what your margins will be. You may certainly decide not to include ANY expense for whatever reason as long as you understand that you will not have an accurate basis for pricing.

Do you think you can do this sort of pricing when you're putting your product or service into an already established market with competitors?

Yes, because the competitors have done the same thing.

(01-10-2014 05:32 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 11:41 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 05:57 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 05:02 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 03:33 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  You state this with conviction. Care to provide some sort of evidence that bears this out?

How many businesses have you owned or run over the years? This should be good. Once again.

I state it with conviction because it is true. So tell me, is there anything that constrains businesses from passing on any increase in the cost of their products or services?

As for your other question, I only own one business - my consulting practice. I've consulted hundreds of businesses on the very sort of thing we are discussing, I've been an expert witness in trials discussing the very sort of thing we're talking about, and I've taught thousands (if not tens of thousands) of students regarding the very sort of thing we're talking about. The question of whether businesses can pass on increases in their costs is not a complex question at all. It's stunning that none of you right wingers know how to properly address the question, and it's sad that you all seem to revel in your ignorance.

When you decide how to initially price a product...you figure your tax burden into that computation along with dozens of other costs. Without this? You have no idea what your margins will be. You may certainly decide not to include ANY expense for whatever reason as long as you understand that you will not have an accurate basis for pricing.

Do you think you can do this sort of pricing when you're putting your product or service into an already established market with competitors?

Yes, because the competitors have done the same thing.

So your assumption is that all competitors have the same cost structure and behave the same way in the market with regard to pricing. Let's illustrate how silly that is. Say we both produce products that directly compete with each other and are easy substitutes. You employ the pricing scheme you've described, and your full cost, exclusive of all income taxes, is $10.00 per unit. You want a 10% net profit margin when you total income taxes are 30% (any other taxes are already figured into the full cost), so you price at $11.65. I've figured out a new proprietary way to produce my product that yields a full cost, exclusive of all income taxes, of $8.00 per unit. I too have historically been targeting a 10% net profit margin. Where do you think I will set my price?

This is just one example. There are a myriad of ways to illustrate why pricing for a target margin doesn't work in a competitive market.

All taxes are paid by the consumers anyway. You can wrap a tax is whatever wrapper you like but the people who will eventually pay the tax are the ones who can't pass on the burden of paying it to the next guy, the middle-class consumer.

(01-11-2014 08:31 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-10-2014 05:32 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 11:41 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 05:57 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 05:02 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  I state it with conviction because it is true. So tell me, is there anything that constrains businesses from passing on any increase in the cost of their products or services?

As for your other question, I only own one business - my consulting practice. I've consulted hundreds of businesses on the very sort of thing we are discussing, I've been an expert witness in trials discussing the very sort of thing we're talking about, and I've taught thousands (if not tens of thousands) of students regarding the very sort of thing we're talking about. The question of whether businesses can pass on increases in their costs is not a complex question at all. It's stunning that none of you right wingers know how to properly address the question, and it's sad that you all seem to revel in your ignorance.

When you decide how to initially price a product...you figure your tax burden into that computation along with dozens of other costs. Without this? You have no idea what your margins will be. You may certainly decide not to include ANY expense for whatever reason as long as you understand that you will not have an accurate basis for pricing.

Do you think you can do this sort of pricing when you're putting your product or service into an already established market with competitors?

Yes, because the competitors have done the same thing.

So your assumption is that all competitors have the same cost structure and behave the same way in the market with regard to pricing. Let's illustrate how silly that is. Say we both produce products that directly compete with each other and are easy substitutes. You employ the pricing scheme you've described, and your full cost, exclusive of all income taxes, is $10.00 per unit. You want a 10% net profit margin when you total income taxes are 30% (any other taxes are already figured into the full cost), so you price at $11.65. I've figured out a new proprietary way to produce my product that yields a full cost, exclusive of all income taxes, of $8.00 per unit. I too have historically been targeting a 10% net profit margin. Where do you think I will set my price?

This is just one example. There are a myriad of ways to illustrate why pricing for a target margin doesn't work in a competitive market.

Why don't you try telling us where you will set your price without proving the point you're arguing against? I don't think you realize what you just did.

This may be splitting hairs, but isn't overhead comprised of fixed costs? Taxes are variable.

Regardless, they're built into the cost of doing business and thus get rolled into the final price of goods and services. Tax increases are almost immediately passed onto consumers, elasticity permitting.