CSNbbs

(04-05-2018 08:20 AM)bigowlsfan Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-01-2018 05:24 PM)Owl1998 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-01-2018 05:17 PM)BufflOwl Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-01-2018 05:01 PM)Owl1998 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-01-2018 04:52 PM)BufflOwl Wrote: [ -> ]Who said they were bad recruiters? Wasn’t me, sir. I said the recruits that I personally know have never met him. He hasn’t recruited in years. That’s been left up to his assistants. Most recently, Hallmark, then Van Hook, and now Pope. In fact, you can pull up MULTIPLE post of mine where I credit Pope with securing several quality recruits that haven’t stepped foot on campus.

Back to why it would be even more of a disaster to have a complete “turnover” of players with the loss of a staff...

Baseball players are recruited and secured 2-3 and sometimes 4 years out. If you lose your roster completely, you’d be hard pressed to find any decent players who haven’t already been verbally committed and or signed their LOI. So, in essence, you’d be looking for 35 players who nobody wanted at all. You can lose 5-6 basketball players and go find 5-6 more at the latest AAU tournament. Baseball doesn’t work that way.

My apologies. You’re correct. You said he doesn’t even participate in the recruiting process! I took that to be a bad thing and a shot at his recruits. If it’s a positive thing, and the current staff is getting awesome players to commit without even coming on campus to meet him...then I guess our best days are ahead. Thanks for clarifying that we have awesome 14 year olds to look forward to.

I know your reply about the awesome 14 year olds is simply a snarky comment but the recruiting game has changed over the last 10-15 years. OG, prior to Van Hook taking the reins, never recruited any kid younger than junior year. The TCUs, LSUs, etc of the world took advantage of that and started securing kids at an earlier age. Finally, with the change of VanHook and now Pope doing the recruiting, Rice is now offering younger recruits. Those kids have yet to step on campus though. I do, however, believe that this is a positive thing...... In spite of your “14 year old” comment.

Sounds like your now complimenting the program. Careful, this is the fire everyone thread. You can’t go saying nice things round these parts. We better quickly find a way that everything would be better with anybody else coaching.
[/

Speaking only for myself, I don’t think the program is as bad as many feel that it is. Do I think it’s time for a change? Yes, I do. Coach Graham is 82 years old and time catches up with everyone...even the best....and he’s the best in my opinion. But I WOULD like to see Coach Pope’s recruits come to fruition and in my dealings with him I’ve come to believe that he’s a very good coach and I’d like him to be a part of the next regime.

I respect and admire the skills of every young man who wears a Rice baseball uniform and I thank them for choosing Rice to pursue their education and baseball career.

The first time I heard Coach Graham was not recruiting any more (or not recruiting off-campus), I would have given him the choice of reversing that course of conduct, or leaving at the end of the season. if that was 5 years, ago, he would have been gone, then.

Nick Saban recruits, off campus and at out of state high schools. Coach K. recruits off campus and at out of state high schools. They both go to those places, and talk to their potential recruits. Their respective track record for success dwarfs WG's.

There is a famous story about Dean Smith (former UNC basketball coach), who got on a plane at 6:00 a.m. on the Tuesday morning after the Monday night he won his first national championship, to fly to Philadelphia to recruit Rasheed Wallace (to build on a foundation of his next successful team).

If WG was physically or mentally unable to get himself to visit high schools any more, then he should have called it a career. Recruiting talent is a critical element of a coaches job. We do not get to pick and choose which parts of our job we want to do.

To be clear, I would terminate those who let that arrangement continue. If it started with prior ADs, and the current AD came in and did not rectify it, that would be enough for me.

Don't compare college football recruiting with college baseball recruiting. The majority of long time, entrenched and successful college baseball coaches don't go on recruiting trips.

(04-05-2018 08:31 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 08:20 AM)bigowlsfan Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-01-2018 05:24 PM)Owl1998 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-01-2018 05:17 PM)BufflOwl Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-01-2018 05:01 PM)Owl1998 Wrote: [ -> ]My apologies. You’re correct. You said he doesn’t even participate in the recruiting process! I took that to be a bad thing and a shot at his recruits. If it’s a positive thing, and the current staff is getting awesome players to commit without even coming on campus to meet him...then I guess our best days are ahead. Thanks for clarifying that we have awesome 14 year olds to look forward to.

I know your reply about the awesome 14 year olds is simply a snarky comment but the recruiting game has changed over the last 10-15 years. OG, prior to Van Hook taking the reins, never recruited any kid younger than junior year. The TCUs, LSUs, etc of the world took advantage of that and started securing kids at an earlier age. Finally, with the change of VanHook and now Pope doing the recruiting, Rice is now offering younger recruits. Those kids have yet to step on campus though. I do, however, believe that this is a positive thing...... In spite of your “14 year old” comment.

Sounds like your now complimenting the program. Careful, this is the fire everyone thread. You can’t go saying nice things round these parts. We better quickly find a way that everything would be better with anybody else coaching.
[/

Speaking only for myself, I don’t think the program is as bad as many feel that it is. Do I think it’s time for a change? Yes, I do. Coach Graham is 82 years old and time catches up with everyone...even the best....and he’s the best in my opinion. But I WOULD like to see Coach Pope’s recruits come to fruition and in my dealings with him I’ve come to believe that he’s a very good coach and I’d like him to be a part of the next regime.

I respect and admire the skills of every young man who wears a Rice baseball uniform and I thank them for choosing Rice to pursue their education and baseball career.

The first time I heard Coach Graham was not recruiting any more (or not recruiting off-campus), I would have given him the choice of reversing that course of conduct, or leaving at the end of the season. if that was 5 years, ago, he would have been gone, then.

Nick Saban recruits, off campus and at out of state high schools. Coach K. recruits off campus and at out of state high schools. They both go to those places, and talk to their potential recruits. Their respective track record for success dwarfs WG's.

There is a famous story about Dean Smith (former UNC basketball coach), who got on a plane at 6:00 a.m. on the Tuesday morning after the Monday night he won his first national championship, to fly to Philadelphia to recruit Rasheed Wallace (to build on a foundation of his next successful team).

If WG was physically or mentally unable to get himself to visit high schools any more, then he should have called it a career. Recruiting talent is a critical element of a coaches job. We do not get to pick and choose which parts of our job we want to do.

To be clear, I would terminate those who let that arrangement continue. If it started with prior ADs, and the current AD came in and did not rectify it, that would be enough for me.

Don't compare college football recruiting with college baseball recruiting. The majority of long time, entrenched and successful college baseball coaches don't go on recruiting trips.

Why is that and who are some other head coaches that don’t recruit?

(04-05-2018 08:31 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 08:20 AM)bigowlsfan Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-01-2018 05:24 PM)Owl1998 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-01-2018 05:17 PM)BufflOwl Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-01-2018 05:01 PM)Owl1998 Wrote: [ -> ]My apologies. You’re correct. You said he doesn’t even participate in the recruiting process! I took that to be a bad thing and a shot at his recruits. If it’s a positive thing, and the current staff is getting awesome players to commit without even coming on campus to meet him...then I guess our best days are ahead. Thanks for clarifying that we have awesome 14 year olds to look forward to.

I know your reply about the awesome 14 year olds is simply a snarky comment but the recruiting game has changed over the last 10-15 years. OG, prior to Van Hook taking the reins, never recruited any kid younger than junior year. The TCUs, LSUs, etc of the world took advantage of that and started securing kids at an earlier age. Finally, with the change of VanHook and now Pope doing the recruiting, Rice is now offering younger recruits. Those kids have yet to step on campus though. I do, however, believe that this is a positive thing...... In spite of your “14 year old” comment.

Sounds like your now complimenting the program. Careful, this is the fire everyone thread. You can’t go saying nice things round these parts. We better quickly find a way that everything would be better with anybody else coaching.
[/

Speaking only for myself, I don’t think the program is as bad as many feel that it is. Do I think it’s time for a change? Yes, I do. Coach Graham is 82 years old and time catches up with everyone...even the best....and he’s the best in my opinion. But I WOULD like to see Coach Pope’s recruits come to fruition and in my dealings with him I’ve come to believe that he’s a very good coach and I’d like him to be a part of the next regime.

I respect and admire the skills of every young man who wears a Rice baseball uniform and I thank them for choosing Rice to pursue their education and baseball career.

The first time I heard Coach Graham was not recruiting any more (or not recruiting off-campus), I would have given him the choice of reversing that course of conduct, or leaving at the end of the season. if that was 5 years, ago, he would have been gone, then.

Nick Saban recruits, off campus and at out of state high schools. Coach K. recruits off campus and at out of state high schools. They both go to those places, and talk to their potential recruits. Their respective track record for success dwarfs WG's.

There is a famous story about Dean Smith (former UNC basketball coach), who got on a plane at 6:00 a.m. on the Tuesday morning after the Monday night he won his first national championship, to fly to Philadelphia to recruit Rasheed Wallace (to build on a foundation of his next successful team).

If WG was physically or mentally unable to get himself to visit high schools any more, then he should have called it a career. Recruiting talent is a critical element of a coaches job. We do not get to pick and choose which parts of our job we want to do.

To be clear, I would terminate those who let that arrangement continue. If it started with prior ADs, and the current AD came in and did not rectify it, that would be enough for me.

Don't compare college football recruiting with college baseball recruiting. The majority of long time, entrenched and successful college baseball coaches don't go on recruiting trips.

Disclaimer: Nobody respects Coach Graham more than I do. And yes, its true, that college baseball recruiting is different than football and basketball due to conflicting game times/dates between the high school games and the college games (i.e. usually at the same time). I don't mean this as a knock to the OG. I think he's borderline on the Mt. Rushmore of collegiate coaches (any sport).

That being said, if you go to Atlanta during the summer at the WWBA games, you will see hundreds and hundreds of head coaches AND their recruiting coordinators. They utilize those 2-3 weeks for scouting purposes because they can see a thousand kids roll through in the same spot. Same thing goes for Arizona during January at the Baseball Factory/Under Armour games.

I don't blame Coach Graham for not wanting to spend 4 weeks of his summer in a different town. He's certainly earned the opportunity to stay behind and let his younger assistants do their jobs. However, I DO think it has an effect. He's got so much clout and presence that we'd be fools to think his personal appearance wouldn't help swing certain kids.

Like I've said before, literally the day after Coach Pope was given the recruiting reins, he showed up in Lubbock to start recruiting at the Premier National Championships. I spoke to him and he'd driven basically all night. He stayed the entire 5 days. He's a grinder. I really respect that about him. Its paid off too in securing several kids that were previously undecided. They haven't set foot on campus yet but they will in the next couple years.

"I don't play golf, fish or hunt," Jim Schlossnagle said. "I'm a big believer that this is not a job, it's a lifestyle. I don't think TCU fans hold me accountable if I'm on the golf course. I'm here, whether it be recruiting, working on the field, or talking to the community, that's what I was hired to do. It's not an 8-5 job. There is a time for downtime, but I don't relax very well. I'd rather be here than in a duck blind. I won't hire anyone that does those things either, because it doesn't help us get better. We need to be here for our players."

(04-05-2018 08:17 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 07:15 AM)owl40 Wrote: [ -> ]By the looks of the abysmal attendance so far, this issue will also sort itself out with just good old fashion economics.

I believe Rice is/was the only D-1 program in the country that also has D-1 Football and Basketball where Baseball is/was the #1 sport for revenue. Although more of a statement of how pathetic things are for MBB/FB, JK simply cannot afford for that to go on for Baseball much longer given larger attendance/revenue issues in FB and MBB and digger a deeper deficit for the University to fund.

He may love the OG and had a gentleman's agreement that he could leave on his terms and timeline but $/lost energy may force his hand. Business decision.

The real issue is not so much whether The OG should have been given the one-year extension he requested, but rather how JK has handled the contract situation...and it's a total disgrace, and unbecoming of the university. Wayne deserves better. Much better.

Walt, this is a drum that you keep banging. I have heard differently on how JK handled the situation and he seems like a pretty savvy guy who knows how to do things right. How do you know for sure that there was not an exit plan presented and Wayne did not want any part of it?

(04-05-2018 11:36 AM)AggieOwl01 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 08:17 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 07:15 AM)owl40 Wrote: [ -> ]By the looks of the abysmal attendance so far, this issue will also sort itself out with just good old fashion economics.

I believe Rice is/was the only D-1 program in the country that also has D-1 Football and Basketball where Baseball is/was the #1 sport for revenue. Although more of a statement of how pathetic things are for MBB/FB, JK simply cannot afford for that to go on for Baseball much longer given larger attendance/revenue issues in FB and MBB and digger a deeper deficit for the University to fund.

He may love the OG and had a gentleman's agreement that he could leave on his terms and timeline but $/lost energy may force his hand. Business decision.

The real issue is not so much whether The OG should have been given the one-year extension he requested, but rather how JK has handled the contract situation...and it's a total disgrace, and unbecoming of the university. Wayne deserves better. Much better.

Walt, this is a drum that you keep banging. I have heard differently on how JK handled the situation and he seems like a pretty savvy guy who knows how to do things right. How do you know for sure that there was not an exit plan presented and Wayne did not want any part of it?

Everything I have heard was Graham wanted the extension and didn't get it. He continues to pursue getting another year also. Graham is being stubborn about this and the program will continue to suffer.

(04-05-2018 11:36 AM)AggieOwl01 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 08:17 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 07:15 AM)owl40 Wrote: [ -> ]By the looks of the abysmal attendance so far, this issue will also sort itself out with just good old fashion economics.

I believe Rice is/was the only D-1 program in the country that also has D-1 Football and Basketball where Baseball is/was the #1 sport for revenue. Although more of a statement of how pathetic things are for MBB/FB, JK simply cannot afford for that to go on for Baseball much longer given larger attendance/revenue issues in FB and MBB and digger a deeper deficit for the University to fund.

He may love the OG and had a gentleman's agreement that he could leave on his terms and timeline but $/lost energy may force his hand. Business decision.

The real issue is not so much whether The OG should have been given the one-year extension he requested, but rather how JK has handled the contract situation...and it's a total disgrace, and unbecoming of the university. Wayne deserves better. Much better.

Walt, this is a drum that you keep banging. I have heard differently on how JK handled the situation and he seems like a pretty savvy guy who knows how to do things right. How do you know for sure that there was not an exit plan presented and Wayne did not want any part of it?

(04-05-2018 11:42 AM)Clad Scheme Owl Wrote: [ -> ]Everything I have heard was Graham wanted the extension and didn't get it. He continues to pursue getting another year also. Graham is being stubborn about this and the program will continue to suffer.

This is what I find ridiculous.

Whether I agree with your opinion of WG or not, let's set that aside for a minute and assume that by some divine inspiration, you guys (whom few of us know) are somehow more enlightened than those of us who speak very personally and candidly with the people we're talking about..... but fine....

You guys expect a competitor to voluntarily resign?

This is where people like JK earn their money. It's not Wayne's job to make his firing easy... it IS JKs job to make hire and fiore decisions, and SOMETIMES those decisions won't be popular or the coach won't agree to it.

The MASSIVE mistake is that the greatest coach in the history of Rice is likely going to be quietly dismissed after two VERY poor (by his standards) seasons AFTER we hung a noose around his neck by having him simply play out his contract.... and we have damaged his replacement by having to now recruit to a team that SHOULDN'T have won the conference last year, and barring the same miracle, won't THIS year.

and while absolutely recruiting has become a multi-year thing.... The FACT is that you can't sign an LOI (and a school can't honor it) until your senior year.... so all this crap about 14 yr olds is grossly overstated.

If a kid is good, there are schools (and pros) out there trying to poach him right up until the day that LOI is signed. Throw JCs in there and you're talking about the backbone of every good program in the country.

(04-05-2018 12:57 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]This is where people like JK earn their money. It's not Wayne's job to make his firing easy... it IS JKs job to make hire and fiore decisions, and SOMETIMES those decisions won't be popular or the coach won't agree to it.

The MASSIVE mistake is that the greatest coach in the history of Rice is likely going to be quietly dismissed after two VERY poor (by his standards) seasons AFTER we hung a noose around his neck by having him simply play out his contract.... and we have damaged his replacement by having to now recruit to a team that SHOULDN'T have won the conference last year, and barring the same miracle, won't THIS year.

These two pieces are key.

The biggest screwup here is the same screwup we have made with every coach. We wait until the last possible moment, after everything is on fire before making a hard choice. Of course no coach is going to voluntarily resign (well, most) - so knowing that, planning needs to occur in advance. And if things don't go the way we hope, then a hard choice and decision must be made.

The decision by JK should have been made last year and acted on. Either a 1 year extension or a parting of ways. What happened last year was an easy excuse to punt the problem down the road - and that is poor planning IMO and why we are in this mess now.

(04-05-2018 01:20 PM)Antarius Wrote: [ -> ]The decision by JK should have been made last year and acted on. Either a 1 year extension or a parting of ways. What happened last year was an easy excuse to punt the problem down the road - and that is poor planning IMO and why we are in this mess now.

Can you imagine the fan reaction if Graham had been fired at the end of last season? There are howls of outrage and petitions of support for coaches fired after seasons when they don't make postseason.

agree....

and now we won't even get the attendance and/or recognition bump of a 'farewell tour' (if that is how it happens).

best case, the guy who was so rude that he wouldn't just quietly go away would somehow come back and help out the school who didn't give him what he wanted, and then didn't give him a farewell tour. Wayne is a big enough guy that he might well do that, but that certainly wouldn't jive with the description that so many of these newcomers want to place on him.

(04-05-2018 02:00 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 01:20 PM)Antarius Wrote: [ -> ]The decision by JK should have been made last year and acted on. Either a 1 year extension or a parting of ways. What happened last year was an easy excuse to punt the problem down the road - and that is poor planning IMO and why we are in this mess now.

Can you imagine the fan reaction if Graham had been fired at the end of last season? There are howls of outrage and petitions of support for coaches fired after seasons when they don't make postseason.

The problem is we screwed up the football situation in 2016 which means the biggest burning dumpster in 2017 was football. Yes, making a change in baseball while not doing so in football would have been an absolute disaster. We mismanaged football which means it bled into baseball time and now we're thoroughly botching this too.

Had we handled football in 2016 and handled baseball in 2017, yes there would be howls of outrage etc. but that's the ADs job. He gets paid a lot more than most people to make these hard decisions and ensure that despite howls, screams and the 25(0), we make the right decision and don't end up where we are right now.

(04-05-2018 02:30 PM)Antarius Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 02:00 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 01:20 PM)Antarius Wrote: [ -> ]The decision by JK should have been made last year and acted on. Either a 1 year extension or a parting of ways. What happened last year was an easy excuse to punt the problem down the road - and that is poor planning IMO and why we are in this mess now.

Can you imagine the fan reaction if Graham had been fired at the end of last season? There are howls of outrage and petitions of support for coaches fired after seasons when they don't make postseason.

The problem is we screwed up the football situation in 2016 which means the biggest burning dumpster in 2017 was football. Yes, making a change in baseball while not doing so in football would have been an absolute disaster. We mismanaged football which means it bled into baseball time and now we're thoroughly botching this too.

Had we handled football in 2016 and handled baseball in 2017, yes there would be howls of outrage etc. but that's the ADs job. He gets paid a lot more than most people to make these hard decisions and ensure that despite howls, screams and the 25(0), we make the right decision and don't end up where we are right now.

So now he's getting howls from a different set of people, equally certain that they are right. Maybe there was no way to make everybody happy.

(04-05-2018 12:57 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 11:36 AM)AggieOwl01 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 08:17 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 07:15 AM)owl40 Wrote: [ -> ]By the looks of the abysmal attendance so far, this issue will also sort itself out with just good old fashion economics.

I believe Rice is/was the only D-1 program in the country that also has D-1 Football and Basketball where Baseball is/was the #1 sport for revenue. Although more of a statement of how pathetic things are for MBB/FB, JK simply cannot afford for that to go on for Baseball much longer given larger attendance/revenue issues in FB and MBB and digger a deeper deficit for the University to fund.

He may love the OG and had a gentleman's agreement that he could leave on his terms and timeline but $/lost energy may force his hand. Business decision.

The real issue is not so much whether The OG should have been given the one-year extension he requested, but rather how JK has handled the contract situation...and it's a total disgrace, and unbecoming of the university. Wayne deserves better. Much better.

Walt, this is a drum that you keep banging. I have heard differently on how JK handled the situation and he seems like a pretty savvy guy who knows how to do things right. How do you know for sure that there was not an exit plan presented and Wayne did not want any part of it?

(04-05-2018 11:42 AM)Clad Scheme Owl Wrote: [ -> ]Everything I have heard was Graham wanted the extension and didn't get it. He continues to pursue getting another year also. Graham is being stubborn about this and the program will continue to suffer.

This is what I find ridiculous.

Whether I agree with your opinion of WG or not, let's set that aside for a minute and assume that by some divine inspiration, you guys (whom few of us know) are somehow more enlightened than those of us who speak very personally and candidly with the people we're talking about..... but fine....

You guys expect a competitor to voluntarily resign?

This is where people like JK earn their money. It's not Wayne's job to make his firing easy... it IS JKs job to make hire and fiore decisions, and SOMETIMES those decisions won't be popular or the coach won't agree to it.

The MASSIVE mistake is that the greatest coach in the history of Rice is likely going to be quietly dismissed after two VERY poor (by his standards) seasons AFTER we hung a noose around his neck by having him simply play out his contract.... and we have damaged his replacement by having to now recruit to a team that SHOULDN'T have won the conference last year, and barring the same miracle, won't THIS year.

and while absolutely recruiting has become a multi-year thing.... The FACT is that you can't sign an LOI (and a school can't honor it) until your senior year.... so all this crap about 14 yr olds is grossly overstated.

If a kid is good, there are schools (and pros) out there trying to poach him right up until the day that LOI is signed. Throw JCs in there and you're talking about the backbone of every good program in the country.

The part in bold is why I can absolutely see him putting up a fight and is why I believe it. As for recruiting, other schools can use him against us by saying he could be out at any moment. It's hard to recruit when there is that uncertainty.

(04-05-2018 02:51 PM)Clad Scheme Owl Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 12:57 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 11:36 AM)AggieOwl01 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 08:17 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 07:15 AM)owl40 Wrote: [ -> ]By the looks of the abysmal attendance so far, this issue will also sort itself out with just good old fashion economics.

I believe Rice is/was the only D-1 program in the country that also has D-1 Football and Basketball where Baseball is/was the #1 sport for revenue. Although more of a statement of how pathetic things are for MBB/FB, JK simply cannot afford for that to go on for Baseball much longer given larger attendance/revenue issues in FB and MBB and digger a deeper deficit for the University to fund.

He may love the OG and had a gentleman's agreement that he could leave on his terms and timeline but $/lost energy may force his hand. Business decision.

The real issue is not so much whether The OG should have been given the one-year extension he requested, but rather how JK has handled the contract situation...and it's a total disgrace, and unbecoming of the university. Wayne deserves better. Much better.

Walt, this is a drum that you keep banging. I have heard differently on how JK handled the situation and he seems like a pretty savvy guy who knows how to do things right. How do you know for sure that there was not an exit plan presented and Wayne did not want any part of it?

(04-05-2018 11:42 AM)Clad Scheme Owl Wrote: [ -> ]Everything I have heard was Graham wanted the extension and didn't get it. He continues to pursue getting another year also. Graham is being stubborn about this and the program will continue to suffer.

This is what I find ridiculous.

Whether I agree with your opinion of WG or not, let's set that aside for a minute and assume that by some divine inspiration, you guys (whom few of us know) are somehow more enlightened than those of us who speak very personally and candidly with the people we're talking about..... but fine....

You guys expect a competitor to voluntarily resign?

This is where people like JK earn their money. It's not Wayne's job to make his firing easy... it IS JKs job to make hire and fiore decisions, and SOMETIMES those decisions won't be popular or the coach won't agree to it.

The MASSIVE mistake is that the greatest coach in the history of Rice is likely going to be quietly dismissed after two VERY poor (by his standards) seasons AFTER we hung a noose around his neck by having him simply play out his contract.... and we have damaged his replacement by having to now recruit to a team that SHOULDN'T have won the conference last year, and barring the same miracle, won't THIS year.

and while absolutely recruiting has become a multi-year thing.... The FACT is that you can't sign an LOI (and a school can't honor it) until your senior year.... so all this crap about 14 yr olds is grossly overstated.

If a kid is good, there are schools (and pros) out there trying to poach him right up until the day that LOI is signed. Throw JCs in there and you're talking about the backbone of every good program in the country.

The part in bold is why I can absolutely see him putting up a fight and is why I believe it. As for recruiting, other schools can use him against us by saying he could be out at any moment. It's hard to recruit when there is that uncertainty.

The program must be placed above Graham and right now he is hurting the program. He was paid for his services so nothing owed other than recognition for his achievements. One National Championship and a host of CWS appearances quite some time ago. Turn the page.

(04-05-2018 02:51 PM)Clad Scheme Owl Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 12:57 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 11:36 AM)AggieOwl01 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 08:17 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 07:15 AM)owl40 Wrote: [ -> ]By the looks of the abysmal attendance so far, this issue will also sort itself out with just good old fashion economics.

I believe Rice is/was the only D-1 program in the country that also has D-1 Football and Basketball where Baseball is/was the #1 sport for revenue. Although more of a statement of how pathetic things are for MBB/FB, JK simply cannot afford for that to go on for Baseball much longer given larger attendance/revenue issues in FB and MBB and digger a deeper deficit for the University to fund.

He may love the OG and had a gentleman's agreement that he could leave on his terms and timeline but $/lost energy may force his hand. Business decision.

The real issue is not so much whether The OG should have been given the one-year extension he requested, but rather how JK has handled the contract situation...and it's a total disgrace, and unbecoming of the university. Wayne deserves better. Much better.

Walt, this is a drum that you keep banging. I have heard differently on how JK handled the situation and he seems like a pretty savvy guy who knows how to do things right. How do you know for sure that there was not an exit plan presented and Wayne did not want any part of it?

(04-05-2018 11:42 AM)Clad Scheme Owl Wrote: [ -> ]Everything I have heard was Graham wanted the extension and didn't get it. He continues to pursue getting another year also. Graham is being stubborn about this and the program will continue to suffer.

This is what I find ridiculous.

Whether I agree with your opinion of WG or not, let's set that aside for a minute and assume that by some divine inspiration, you guys (whom few of us know) are somehow more enlightened than those of us who speak very personally and candidly with the people we're talking about..... but fine....

You guys expect a competitor to voluntarily resign?

This is where people like JK earn their money. It's not Wayne's job to make his firing easy... it IS JKs job to make hire and fiore decisions, and SOMETIMES those decisions won't be popular or the coach won't agree to it.

The MASSIVE mistake is that the greatest coach in the history of Rice is likely going to be quietly dismissed after two VERY poor (by his standards) seasons AFTER we hung a noose around his neck by having him simply play out his contract.... and we have damaged his replacement by having to now recruit to a team that SHOULDN'T have won the conference last year, and barring the same miracle, won't THIS year.

and while absolutely recruiting has become a multi-year thing.... The FACT is that you can't sign an LOI (and a school can't honor it) until your senior year.... so all this crap about 14 yr olds is grossly overstated.

If a kid is good, there are schools (and pros) out there trying to poach him right up until the day that LOI is signed. Throw JCs in there and you're talking about the backbone of every good program in the country.

The part in bold is why I can absolutely see him putting up a fight and is why I believe it. As for recruiting, other schools can use him against us by saying he could be out at any moment. It's hard to recruit when there is that uncertainty.

I can't believe any recruit is stupid enough to be certain an 82 year old coach will be around in three years, no matter his contract status.

Why would he agree to a farewell tour if he won't go without a fight?

(04-05-2018 02:14 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]agree....

and now we won't even get the attendance and/or recognition bump of a 'farewell tour' (if that is how it happens).

best case, the guy who was so rude that he wouldn't just quietly go away would somehow come back and help out the school who didn't give him what he wanted, and then didn't give him a farewell tour. Wayne is a big enough guy that he might well do that, but that certainly wouldn't jive with the description that so many of these newcomers want to place on him.

Not sure if I am one of the ones you are calling a newcomer or not. I have been on the board since 2007 and a Rice fan much longer. I don't go to as many games as I used to, but do know people that do as well as several former players who seem to know what is going on. I will agree it is a weird situation, but this is not the first one like this to end awkwardly (Bobby Bowden, Mack Brown to name a few). I don't think any of us really know exactly what has happened. Wayne may have been treated unfairly, but the bigger point is the program has really fallen and continues to fall. I think you have a couple of good candidates on the staff who might take over and Berkman supposedly is very interested. There obviously should be appreciation shown to Coach Graham for the fantastic job he has done. I think most everyone on here will agree to that. But it clearly is time for a change/new energy in the program.

(04-05-2018 02:00 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 01:20 PM)Antarius Wrote: [ -> ]The decision by JK should have been made last year and acted on. Either a 1 year extension or a parting of ways. What happened last year was an easy excuse to punt the problem down the road - and that is poor planning IMO and why we are in this mess now.

Can you imagine the fan reaction if Graham had been fired at the end of last season? There are howls of outrage and petitions of support for coaches fired after seasons when they don't make postseason.

No one is suggesting he should have been fired after last season, as he still had one year on his contract and had just taken us to our 23rd consecutive post-season. However, if JK had in his mind made a decision not to extend the contract, he should have told Wayne-- and the public-- that this coming year would be his final season...and this should have been done BEFORE this season started. And for those clueless who suggest that perhaps JK did just that, sorry, but that is simply not the case.

(04-05-2018 02:56 PM)Bulldinkydurham Wrote: [ -> ]The program must be placed above Graham and right now he is hurting the program. He was paid for his services so nothing owed other than recognition for his achievements. One National Championship and a host of CWS appearances quite some time ago. Turn the page time time on.

That's your opinion and certainly not without evidence (or room for disagreement)... but the decision lies (essentially) with one person (or group of people). As some have said, maybe his hands are tied... but those people need to know that indecision, one way or the other hurts the program. It is easily arguable (and supported by the fact that it happens so rarely elsewhere) that failing to extend or fire is vastly more damaging than either extending OR firing.

(04-05-2018 02:58 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote: [ -> ]I can't believe any recruit is stupid enough to be certain an 82 year old coach will be around in three years, no matter his contract status.

Why would he agree to a farewell tour if he won't go without a fight?

False equivalency.
First, let's note that recruits also aren't stupid enough to be certain that a 42 year old coach will be around in 3 years, no matter his contract status. Wayne may be vastly more likely to have health issues, but he is also vastly less likely to be poached. See UT's last 3 coaches. Whomever we hire next will be vastly more likely to be poached. The reality is that if you make it to Wayne's age without serious health issues, you are significantly more likely to avoid them. That's obviously statistics and not specific to Wayne or our situation, but it is statistically true.

Second, let's not compare 'where we are or could have been' to some impossible theoretical. Our choices should have been two years ago to extend or plan a departure. If you had planned a departure, it makes sense that you would have planned a replacement. Whether that was a simple announcement that with 2 years remaining on his contract, we have decided to move coach Graham into a consultative position in recognition of his unparalleled success and tenure, and to move forward in a new direction on the field with coach 'x'.... or whether it was that coach G will reduce his role over the next 2 years while coach X will increase his and take over at that time... or whether it was that coach G would have a rolling 3 year contract until either he has a health issue and decides to quit or until we decide to do the above....

Why would you need Wayne's acquiescence for a farewell tour? Of course it is better if he goes along, but have you even met the man? You act as if he would stay on but cause problems to spite the program he built. If JK made a decision, Wayne doesn't really have a lot of recourse except perhaps the Lou Brown 'win the whole thing' and FORCE them to extend him?? If he DID do as you seem to think (as crazy as that sounds to me) then you fire him for cause and you probably don't have to pay him his buyout.

(04-05-2018 03:14 PM)AggieOwl01 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-05-2018 02:14 PM)Hambone10 Wrote: [ -> ]agree....

and now we won't even get the attendance and/or recognition bump of a 'farewell tour' (if that is how it happens).

best case, the guy who was so rude that he wouldn't just quietly go away would somehow come back and help out the school who didn't give him what he wanted, and then didn't give him a farewell tour. Wayne is a big enough guy that he might well do that, but that certainly wouldn't jive with the description that so many of these newcomers want to place on him.

Not sure if I am one of the ones you are calling a newcomer or not. I have been on the board since 2007 and a Rice fan much longer. I don't go to as many games as I used to, but do know people that do as well as several former players who seem to know what is going on. I will agree it is a weird situation, but this is not the first one like this to end awkwardly (Bobby Bowden, Mack Brown to name a few). I don't think any of us really know exactly what has happened. Wayne may have been treated unfairly, but the bigger point is the program has really fallen and continues to fall. I think you have a couple of good candidates on the staff who might take over and Berkman supposedly is very interested. There obviously should be appreciation shown to Coach Graham for the fantastic job he has done. I think most everyone on here will agree to that. But it clearly is time for a change/new energy in the program.

No you're not Aggie...

but while those may have been awkward, iirc, Fisher was hired in 2007 as the 'heir apparent' to Bowden with a stipulation that he be paid $5mm if that didn't happen before 2011 and in 2009, Bowden was given a 1 year extension.... meaning the plan was put in place when Fisher had 2 years left on his contract... so players knew it was either going to be Jimbo or both.... and the University clearly made this plan well in advance...

and when Mack Brown resigned, he was under contract through 2020 or so.... an extension he was granted after what I recall was a massive raise and then some very mediocre teams... and then he resigned the following year after the extension. MAYBE the whole purpose of the extension was to promote the program, but also to manage the buy-out?

Either way you just described two examples of how 'the big boys' avoid putting a noose around the neck of a program.

Our situation isn't just awkward... it's arguably detrimental.

Like every coaching situation, Rice waited too long and baseball is in danger of becoming like Latech in women’s basketball. Former power, but no longer relevant.

(04-05-2018 05:41 PM)WIowl Wrote: [ -> ]Like every coaching situation, Rice waited too long and baseball is in danger of becoming like Latech in women’s basketball. Former power, but no longer relevant.