(03-20-2018 06:21 PM)TechRocks Wrote: Yeah, you need to read that McCarthy piece, it's above my pay grade.
And here's his comments on the statute you mentioned, they mirror yours:
Quote:As I pointed out when Mueller first indicted Manafort and Gates, there is no such offense in federal law as “conspiracy against the United States.” What Section 371 criminalizes (besides the afore-described conspiracy “to commit any offense” under federal penal law) is conspiracy “to defraud the United States” (emphasis added).
Dude needs to go back to Middle school go learn grammar and then go back to law school. He apparently doesn't understand the meaning of the word 'or' Statutes have to be broken down like we all did in the past with sentence diagrams.
So lets break this down.
Quote:If two or more persons conspire either
this starts a list of two items - per the definition of either
Quote:to commit any offense against the United States,
This is item 1
Quote:or
The word that this Attorney seems to be ignoring
Quote:to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof
This is item 2. We know that this is not a continuation of a list of items because when there are multiple clauses the statute is written as 'any of the following:' Furthermore, we know that there are only two items due to the use of the word 'either', so the second 'or' in this phrase is regarding the victim of the defrauding. IE the US or any agency thereof, like the military or a three letter agency, etc.
Futhermore, notice that both actions are just that... ACTIONS. 'To commit' and 'to defraud' It is not written as 'to commit fraud', nor is it written 'to commit an offense of fraud'.
We know there are two things due to the use of either, and there are two actions in this sentence. Notice that the 2nd or does NOT have an action associated with it. This is because it is an 'or' between the two victims (US or any agency).
This statue has been written specifically to give this meaning.
Quote:in any manner or for any purpose,
meaning ALL possible actions are included and all possible methods are included
Quote:and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy,
meaning they actually did something physical that would have been an action involved in the enactment of the offense.
Quote:each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both
the penalty for violating
There is a very specific way that these sentences are constructed, and every word is specifically chosen. You cannot simply read through it casually and assume what the meaning was. As has been shown time and time again with Supreme Court rulings... the EXACT phrasing and use of every single word is important. Legislators spend plenty of time making sure they use the exact word they need to use so that others will understand their exact intent. You do NOT use the word 'either' to mean more than two things. The use of 'either' and 'or' are a clear indication to how the rest of the sentence is meant to be understood. "Either' in conjuction with 'or' does not mean 'of'
He is trying to claim that the sentence says:
Quote:If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States ____ to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof
instead of what it says which is
Quote:If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof
You cannot ignore any word in a statute. Ignoring the word or changes the entire meaning of this statute. If Congress did not intend 'or' to be there, they wouldn't have written it there and voted on it being there.