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Greenberg: UConn Should Be in Big East
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #261
RE: Greenberg: UConn Should Be in Big East
Talon Energy Stadium would be great for Villanova. They've had games with Delaware there already. And Talon wanted it BAD. It was really willing to do so much to make it happen...Villanova hardly budged on it. I'd wager that when the two finally talked, it was Talon making the call rather than Nicastro or other VU officials initiating anything.

Villanova football, if they did upgrade, was going to be something played in Philadelphia, not Chester. The stadium down there could be made of gold and welded with platinum...Chester isn't Philly. Villanova, had they decided to upgrade, were really looking at Citizens Bank Park or some other share with Lincoln Financial Field. Franklin Field, truly the perfect Philly venue...no play whatsoever.

To know Villanova is to drive by it now. It may not even be that Villanova hates the sport of football, but, to see all of the growth its made since its FCS title, I doubt that's possible with the resource-hoarding that comes with college football operations. And, knowing and talking with people in the advancement and development offices at some of these schools...athletics giving isn't well loved; going head-to-head with institutional initiatives (heck, didn't Georgetown take a donation for a football stadium and re-purpose it for "other priorities?"). They compete against each other, and football would only make it worse.
12-11-2017 02:54 PM
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megadrone Offline
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Post: #262
RE: Greenberg: UConn Should Be in Big East
(12-11-2017 02:54 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Talon Energy Stadium would be great for Villanova. They've had games with Delaware there already. And Talon wanted it BAD. It was really willing to do so much to make it happen...Villanova hardly budged on it. I'd wager that when the two finally talked, it was Talon making the call rather than Nicastro or other VU officials initiating anything.

Villanova football, if they did upgrade, was going to be something played in Philadelphia, not Chester. The stadium down there could be made of gold and welded with platinum...Chester isn't Philly. Villanova, had they decided to upgrade, were really looking at Citizens Bank Park or some other share with Lincoln Financial Field. Franklin Field, truly the perfect Philly venue...no play whatsoever.

To know Villanova is to drive by it now. It may not even be that Villanova hates the sport of football, but, to see all of the growth its made since its FCS title, I doubt that's possible with the resource-hoarding that comes with college football operations. And, knowing and talking with people in the advancement and development offices at some of these schools...athletics giving isn't well loved; going head-to-head with institutional initiatives (heck, didn't Georgetown take a donation for a football stadium and re-purpose it for "other priorities?"). They compete against each other, and football would only make it worse.

Talon Energy Stadium would be great for Villanova as an FCS program if their on-campus stadium has to get replaced.

If Villanova were to upgrade and play in the MAC, the same stadium would be serviceable. But pinning your hopes on the soccer team/stadium management to upgrade the stadium in 3 phases to 24K seats was not viable for an AQ/P conference and RU, WVU and Pitt were right to say no when Villanova presented the plan. The ACC would likewise say no.

Villanova would have needed to use Franklin Field and schedule around Penn games, which the Big East hated during Temple's first tenure in the conference.
12-11-2017 04:12 PM
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Post: #263
RE: Greenberg: UConn Should Be in Big East
(12-11-2017 02:29 PM)megadrone Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 01:40 PM)SC-KNIGHT Wrote:  Villanova should have moved their FB up to FBS when the BE offer was on the table. If they played at the FBS level they would certainly be on the ACC's radar at any point in time for the Philly market and TV sets. I'd still try to move up if I were them at this point (MAC-AAC FB only) to position themselves for the next potential realignment period around 2024 / 2025. BC, Pitt, Cuse, Miami, L'Ville, and VT would vote for them in the ACC if they had FB at the FBS level to go along with their BB program. 04-cheers

Except for these two details it's a great idea:
  • No real desire to do so
  • No place to play -- the stadium in Chester wasn't a good option.

It was a half-assed upgrade plan to keep the conference happy. It wasn't something Villanova really wanted to do.

Sure, AAC will take Villanova as basketball only... Their startup football however... yikes 03-puke ... No thanks.
12-11-2017 10:36 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #264
RE: Greenberg: UConn Should Be in Big East
Conference RPI since the split (from RealTime RPI):

Big East
2017-18 (projected): 3rd overall
2016-17: 3rd overall
2015-16: 4th overall
2014-15: 2nd overall
2013-14: 4th overall

American
2017-18 (projected): 7th overall
2016-17: 7th overall
2015-16: 8th overall
2014-15: 8th overall
2013-14: 8th overall

Even though the data already supports it, if UConn were to even return to the Big East for basketball, it would only cement the clear separation between the two conferences in basketball. In that regard, UConn could leverage the AAC in the next contract negotiations to try and get a special deal from the league.
12-12-2017 09:48 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #265
RE: Greenberg: UConn Should Be in Big East
(12-11-2017 04:12 PM)megadrone Wrote:  Talon Energy Stadium would be great for Villanova as an FCS program if their on-campus stadium has to get replaced.

If Villanova were to upgrade and play in the MAC, the same stadium would be serviceable. But pinning your hopes on the soccer team/stadium management to upgrade the stadium in 3 phases to 24K seats was not viable for an AQ/P conference and RU, WVU and Pitt were right to say no when Villanova presented the plan. The ACC would likewise say no.

Villanova would have needed to use Franklin Field and schedule around Penn games, which the Big East hated during Temple's first tenure in the conference.

You're giving Villanova too much credit for citing that venue as the solution for FBS play in that infamous plan (when those guys were still members). From what I remember, some venue possibilities were listed, but there was a lot of "TBD" and a lot of expectation of financial assistance to sop up basically any risk or expenses Villanova didn't want to assume. And spreading out possibilities probably gave Villanova (or so they thought it would) the ability to maneuver their case for possible ACC consideration. If there wasn't a lot for Talon on that first go-around, but some for LFF or CBP, that may have been why, as those venues could handle better crowds. Citizens Bank Park seemed like it was the school's first choice early on, and that is probably more crazy than any of the options given all of the work that would have had to go into the venue to make it football-suitable.

The plan would become a little more comprehensive thereafter, and while Talon would emerge as the odds-on favorite (maybe because the ACC turned them down), there was still a lot unknown. One of those is the total possible capacity for Talon. The "proposed" 5-7K expansion I've understood to be a hodge-podge of "solutions," from a partial ring of added decks to a combination of decks and temporary seating. Talon won't ever be 35K range, but it could approach 30K. Considering nobody was really filling their stadiums in the Big East at that time except for maybe West Virginia, imo...the venue would have been fine. Optics and ego force this capacity issue, nothing more.

And optics is probably why Villanova or Temple playing in UPenn's field has been looked down upon so poorly. Not "scheduling challenges," but a major school playing sports in another school's venue. Come on, where does that happen at all at FBS? Conferences aren't exactly fond of teams playing in pro venues; gotta love the years when you'd see Eagles or Phillies stuff during Temple games at the Vet. The venues are completely serviceable. It's all ego that schools should have their own football stadiums, not much else. "We have one, so must you."

I don't disagree, though. There's enough Villanova did and didn't do to warrant the anger from others. I feel bad for their coach, who really did his best to get the program up to that level, having been the same guy who brought them back from no program at all, but, the right decision was made that go-around. I don't agree it was the right decision to pass when UConn upgraded, though. At the heart of all of this is a school that wants to be like Boston College. They had a shot at that.
12-12-2017 10:57 AM
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megadrone Offline
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Post: #266
RE: Greenberg: UConn Should Be in Big East
(12-12-2017 10:57 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(12-11-2017 04:12 PM)megadrone Wrote:  Talon Energy Stadium would be great for Villanova as an FCS program if their on-campus stadium has to get replaced.

If Villanova were to upgrade and play in the MAC, the same stadium would be serviceable. But pinning your hopes on the soccer team/stadium management to upgrade the stadium in 3 phases to 24K seats was not viable for an AQ/P conference and RU, WVU and Pitt were right to say no when Villanova presented the plan. The ACC would likewise say no.

Villanova would have needed to use Franklin Field and schedule around Penn games, which the Big East hated during Temple's first tenure in the conference.

You're giving Villanova too much credit for citing that venue as the solution for FBS play in that infamous plan (when those guys were still members). From what I remember, some venue possibilities were listed, but there was a lot of "TBD" and a lot of expectation of financial assistance to sop up basically any risk or expenses Villanova didn't want to assume. And spreading out possibilities probably gave Villanova (or so they thought it would) the ability to maneuver their case for possible ACC consideration. If there wasn't a lot for Talon on that first go-around, but some for LFF or CBP, that may have been why, as those venues could handle better crowds. Citizens Bank Park seemed like it was the school's first choice early on, and that is probably more crazy than any of the options given all of the work that would have had to go into the venue to make it football-suitable.

The plan would become a little more comprehensive thereafter, and while Talon would emerge as the odds-on favorite (maybe because the ACC turned them down), there was still a lot unknown. One of those is the total possible capacity for Talon. The "proposed" 5-7K expansion I've understood to be a hodge-podge of "solutions," from a partial ring of added decks to a combination of decks and temporary seating. Talon won't ever be 35K range, but it could approach 30K. Considering nobody was really filling their stadiums in the Big East at that time except for maybe West Virginia, imo...the venue would have been fine. Optics and ego force this capacity issue, nothing more.

And optics is probably why Villanova or Temple playing in UPenn's field has been looked down upon so poorly. Not "scheduling challenges," but a major school playing sports in another school's venue. Come on, where does that happen at all at FBS? Conferences aren't exactly fond of teams playing in pro venues; gotta love the years when you'd see Eagles or Phillies stuff during Temple games at the Vet. The venues are completely serviceable. It's all ego that schools should have their own football stadiums, not much else. "We have one, so must you."

I don't disagree, though. There's enough Villanova did and didn't do to warrant the anger from others. I feel bad for their coach, who really did his best to get the program up to that level, having been the same guy who brought them back from no program at all, but, the right decision was made that go-around. I don't agree it was the right decision to pass when UConn upgraded, though. At the heart of all of this is a school that wants to be like Boston College. They had a shot at that.

My own concern about Villanova was what happened when Talley retired. He was a great coach and built them up from nothing to a 1AA National Champion. If Villanova had upgraded in 1997 when UConn did, the discussion would be completely different, and perhaps the Big East stays together.

Villanova had a standing invitation and only took some steps toward the upgrade to either help save the conference or under pressure from the conference. The admin didn't want it, Radnor Township wouldn't let them expand the stadium past its current 12K and it was a complex problem to solve. Couple that with stadium issues in Philadelphia (the Eagles really don't want Temple in LFF and Temple was 3rd in line for the Vet during those years), it really had to be approached enthusiastically and not half-heartedly.
12-12-2017 11:50 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #267
RE: Greenberg: UConn Should Be in Big East
I don't think Villanova was wrong to want others' financial assistance in the move, either, and while that sounds ridiculous, this is a school who saw how its colleagues behaved in the face of realignment. To assume that much risk working with others who had zero issue lying to others' faces isn't that ridiculous when you really think about it.

There's no good or easy answer to it. And you can (maybe) say the same about the lawsuit against the departing Big East members, especially from UConn's perspective when it accounted for revenues from games with Miami, VT, and BC lost.

You nailed it with the issues Villanova has with its infrastructure and Radnor Township. It's not easy for them to be who they are athletically in that zip code. The Pavilion upgrade is a $60m project, and it doesn't really add capacity, only heightening game experience; Radnor would never budge on the kind of zoning to make the place bigger. Demolishing the old place and building a bigger structure might have been cheaper...but that's not Radnor.
12-12-2017 01:25 PM
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