(12-15-2016 10:43 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(12-15-2016 08:33 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(12-15-2016 07:55 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  This was only a reporter's opinion, not BYU's opinion. They are either staying Indy or dropping football.

It is not a reporter's opinion. It is an opinion of a former BYU football player. Since he is an alumni of the school. You got to wonder if BYU are getting pressure from the alumni, fans, faculty and boasters to rejoin a conference since they are not doing well in football as an Independent.

The ONLY opinion that matters at BYU is that of the Mormon Church itself. The LDS leadership's actions have made it pretty clear that the purpose of BYU sports is to have maximum exposure in order to aid getting their message out to the world along with controlling as much of that message as possible. Being independent fits both counts better than being in a G5 league.

Also, BYU will simply not relegate itself to being in a structurally inferior conference compared to the University of Utah. Everyone that talks about access bowls, conference rivalries, etc. are COMPLETELY missing that aspect. Being independent allows for an argument that BYU is still more "special" than Utah (e.g. BYU can get a TV deal with ESPN in a way that Utah never would be able to do), whereas joining a G5 league would mean moving to a literal ghetto compared where Utah lives. That's just not reasonably foreseeable.

MWC and AAC fans just need to live with the fact that they have about as much chance as getting BYU at this point than Notre Dame. Having a 1-in-60ish chance at an access bowl slot does NOT trump having the higher perceived prestige of being independent (assuming that you choose to do, unlike being forced to do so like New Mexico State), making more money from ESPN, being able to schedule more P5 teams every single year, control more content on BYUtv and, maybe most importantly, not have a complete 100% admission that they are in an inferior place compared to Utah.

I have no connection to BYU at all. I just have an allergic reaction when biased people tell a party that something is supposedly better for them by joining those biased people when any unbiased rational person from the outside looking in would say otherwise. For BYU's goals, there's no rational reason to choose a G5 league over independence. If BYU eventually gets a P5 invite, then that's certainly better than independence for them.

Besides, if BYU couldn't get into the Big 12 in their current situation, then going to a G5 league (where they're playing fewer P5 teams and making less TV money) is NOT going to aid them down the road in getting a P5 invite. Frankly, the primary reason why BYU isn't a P5 league is due to political (both social and personal) factors much more so than anything with their performance or actual conference realignment value. Under traditional conference realignment metrics such as brand value, fan base and TV value, BYU would be in a P5 league already without any question. It's the off-the-field political and academic freedom issues that are holding BYU back... and that's going to be the case whether they're in a G5 league or independent.

Exactly! The top P5 conference's consider BYU a P5 opponent anyway.

The MWC's argument to be a BCS conference back in the day was the fact they were primarily made up of schools in state's without BCS representation (Utah, Wyoming, UNM, UNLV), and a few successful private schools (USAFA, BYU, TCU).

If BYU ever joined a conference that wasn't P5, I believe it would have to be on par with the old MWC, and hold that same argument of unequal representation. Unfortunately, I believe that ship has sailed, but if I could create a BYU "dream conference" loosely based on the old WAC, it would look like this:

BYU
Boise St. (replaces Utah)
San Diego St.
Hawaii
UNLV
New Mexico
UTEP
Colorado St.
Air Force
Wyoming

(12-15-2016 10:22 AM)f1do Wrote:  He also admitted that the MWC is not the same conference that it used to be and that the AAC isn't a good fit regionally

This is the whole kit and caboodle, right here.

If there were an easy conference answer, BYU would've already taken that path. There isn't. Joining a non-P5 conference will require some level of sacrifice, over what BYU had in the WAC days and the old MWC days (when Utah and TCU were in the conference).

Wcc and football Indy isn't bad for byu. I don't see byu going back to the mwc although they probably would do a 6 game football deal to help with their schedule. Joining the aac with Air Force as football only works with afa and Seattle joining the wcc to even things out.

Did you say go past the Big 12 in Basketball. HAHA. Thats hilarious.

(12-15-2016 01:07 PM)bluesox Wrote:  Wcc and football Indy isn't bad for byu. I don't see byu going back to the mwc although they probably would do a 6 game football deal to help with their schedule. Joining the aac with Air Force as football only works with afa and Seattle joining the wcc to even things out.

That's an interesting proposal. I like it! Especially if they also add Army as football-only. Of course with the understanding that Army and Navy's game will continue to be played the weekend after CCG weekend,and the conf will just have to figure out how to deal with that should it complicate matters.

These are the P5 deals scheduled from 2015-16:
Utah - H/H extention to their already existing H/H
Minnesota - H/H 2020/2025
Baylor - H/H 2021/2022
Virginia - Originally H/H 2019/2020 - was revised to push 2nd game to 2023 and added another game in Provo to compensate in 2021. So it became a 2:1 in BYU's favor
Notre Dame - The previously scheduled 2 2-for-1 deals was reduced to 1 2-for-1 deal. BYU has already played 2 at ND and now just await the return game (no date currently)
Oregon - 1 and done for 2022
Mississippi State - H/H for 2016/2017
LSU - 1 and done for 2017 (Advocare Texas Kickoff in Houston)

Also, the crunch of more G5 games in 2017 than usual was a product of shuffling some other games around. Specifically they moved UNLV from 2015 back to 2017 so they could add the 2015 Missouri neutral site game at Arrowhead Stadium. They also moved a 2020 Arizona game in Provo from their H/H/N series to a 2021 neutral site in Las Vegas so that they could pick up the 2016/2020 Michigan State H/H series that became available by Eastern Michigan's cancellation.

There wasn't a ton of new schedule announcements due to the Big 12 expansion fiasco, but I expect some more announcements in 2017. 2018 (5 P5 games) needs a FCS game and one more home game. 2019 (4 P5 games) needs a FCS, one more home game, and 2 road games.

(12-15-2016 11:53 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(12-15-2016 11:35 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(12-15-2016 11:29 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(12-15-2016 11:09 AM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  Only 4 P5 teams on BYU's schedule next year (vs. LSU in Houston, @ Mississippi State, Utah & Wisconsin in Provo).

Right, but a G5 school is typically lucky to get 1 home game against a P5 school at all. To have a neutral site game plus 2 home games against P5 schools is something that is virtually impossible to do as a G5 school. Plus, BYU is still able to cherry-pick the handful of G5 schools that they *do* want to play (such as Boise State and Utah State) - you're not going to find too many G5 programs turning down a home-and-home series with BYU. It's not as if though they're missing out on playing any MWC and AAC schools that they believe are worth playing.

If BYU is dipping down to only 2 P5 opponents per year, then we might start having an argument about whether they're truly having scheduling issues. However, their low end of P5 games seems to be 4 per year... and even if it's "only" 4 per year, that's still significantly better than what they could do as a G5 school.

The real problem is a lot of these home games are the result of 2-for-1 deals. Lots of schools can get home games vs P5s if they do 2-for-one deals. BYU has a done a number of 2-for-1 deals---thats not sustainable. At some point, they are going to have to pay the piper so to speak and their future home schedules will suffer. That said, I don't think they are going to join a conference. The church isn't concerned about football on the field as much as they are concerned about football as a church outreach program.

I think the 2-for-1 series (from my recollection includes USC, Stanford and Michigan State) were signed in the first couple of years of BYU's independence where time was of the essence to simply get enough games on the schedule. The more recent P5 scheduling deals (such as Arizona State and Washington on top of the traditional Utah rivalry game) have been straight home-and-home series.

Regardless, I think fans in the MWC and AAC are constantly *really* overstating BYU's supposed scheduling issues. BYU is getting a healthy and regular number of P5 opponents.

I agree with your last point that the LDS Church has a very different mindset for what it wants from BYU football than any other school. This would be like the Vatican controlling Notre Dame's independence vs. conference decision. The control of BYU's football program goes WAY beyond the alums and boosters that you'd typically see at other schools.

Why thank you Frank for coming down off of your throne in Big10 heaven to let us peasants know that we don't have the right to talk or discuss whatever far fetched ideas and scenarios about BYU or any other teams we want on a fan message board.

(12-15-2016 10:43 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(12-15-2016 08:33 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(12-15-2016 07:55 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  This was only a reporter's opinion, not BYU's opinion. They are either staying Indy or dropping football.

It is not a reporter's opinion. It is an opinion of a former BYU football player. Since he is an alumni of the school. You got to wonder if BYU are getting pressure from the alumni, fans, faculty and boasters to rejoin a conference since they are not doing well in football as an Independent.

The ONLY opinion that matters at BYU is that of the Mormon Church itself. The LDS leadership's actions have made it pretty clear that the purpose of BYU sports is to have maximum exposure in order to aid getting their message out to the world along with controlling as much of that message as possible. Being independent fits both counts better than being in a G5 league.

Also, BYU will simply not relegate itself to being in a structurally inferior conference compared to the University of Utah. Everyone that talks about access bowls, conference rivalries, etc. are COMPLETELY missing that aspect. Being independent allows for an argument that BYU is still more "special" than Utah (e.g. BYU can get a TV deal with ESPN in a way that Utah never would be able to do), whereas joining a G5 league would mean moving to a literal ghetto compared where Utah lives. That's just not reasonably foreseeable.

MWC and AAC fans just need to live with the fact that they have about as much chance as getting BYU at this point than Notre Dame. Having a 1-in-60ish chance at an access bowl slot does NOT trump having the higher perceived prestige of being independent (assuming that you choose to do, unlike being forced to do so like New Mexico State), making more money from ESPN, being able to schedule more P5 teams every single year, control more content on BYUtv and, maybe most importantly, not have a complete 100% admission that they are in an inferior place compared to Utah.

I have no connection to BYU at all. I just have an allergic reaction when biased people tell a party that something is supposedly better for them by joining those biased people when any unbiased rational person from the outside looking in would say otherwise. For BYU's goals, there's no rational reason to choose a G5 league over independence. If BYU eventually gets a P5 invite, then that's certainly better than independence for them.

Besides, if BYU couldn't get into the Big 12 in their current situation, then going to a G5 league (where they're playing fewer P5 teams and making less TV money) is NOT going to aid them down the road in getting a P5 invite. Frankly, the primary reason why BYU isn't a P5 league is due to political (both social and personal) factors much more so than anything with their performance or actual conference realignment value. Under traditional conference realignment metrics such as brand value, fan base and TV value, BYU would be in a P5 league already without any question. It's the off-the-field political and academic freedom issues that are holding BYU back... and that's going to be the case whether they're in a G5 league or independent.

Agreed on all counts.

(12-15-2016 11:04 AM)ken d Wrote:  This year, BYU went 8-4 against a schedule comparable to most P5 schools. They played 6 P5 schools:

Utah, Arizona and UCLA from the PAC
West Virginia (Big XII)
Michigan St (B1G)
Mississippi St (SEC)

plus Boise State, Cincinnati, UMass and Utah State from G5.

It sounds like what Buck is saying is that they would do better to play a cupcake league schedule in the G5 to pad their win count, rather than test themselves against P5 level teams. That sounds like an admission that BYU is (and was) a second rate football program. I don't think he will find many folks at BYU who will buy into that thinking.

BYU's sagarin SOS was 72- below every P5 school and several AAC schools. That is how independence has played out with Baylor sometimes falling below BYU and several AAC schools in SOC.

(12-15-2016 01:07 PM)bluesox Wrote:  Wcc and football Indy isn't bad for byu. I don't see byu going back to the mwc although they probably would do a 6 game football deal to help with their schedule. Joining the aac with Air Force as football only works with afa and Seattle joining the wcc to even things out.

If you go that route, why not AFA and Denver for the travel partner?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530AZ using CSNbbs mobile app

Would the PAC XII conceivably be interested?

BYU wouldn't join the MWC if Utah St was there. Boise St might even be a problem for them. Nothing wrong with Utah St, but associating with with them is too demoralizing for mormon brass as they havent been associated with Utah St for generations. The AAC isn't nearly as much of a jolt to them as the current MWC.

(12-15-2016 06:05 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Would the PAC XII conceivably be interested?

BYU + Texas

Texas added to the South, BYU to the North

(12-15-2016 10:40 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(12-15-2016 10:34 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  As much as a boost of some combination of BYU, Boise State, San Diego State, Air Force, Army and/or Colorado State would help the AAC, the fact of the matter is that unless those schools boost the value of the conference, and, in turn significantly boosts the revenue of those schools with added travel, an expansion of further west schools is not happening - despite the intrigue and viewership that occur as a result of it.

Until ESPN (or a competitive network) puts the money down for the AAC to do that, we can only fantasize.

BYU is still very much a national brand and program. Despite independence being a bit more of a challenge than originally hoped, they are still able to schedule strong teams around the country. Not getting invited to the Big 12 may be a blessing in disguise in the longterm.

There are a couple of threads on the AAC Board reflecting ratings and total viewership numbers for the FBS conferences. In both threads, those numbers suggest the AAC, which was a totally unknown quantity and was in danger of falling apart when it signed its current deal with ESPN, will see a big raise on its next contract now that it has established both stability and a very attractive ratings track record.

AC, I doubt a big raise will occur if there are no other bidders. I have stated many times before I think the AAC and NBC will be a great match. The reality is the AAC is G5 for another 9 years. I would love to see the ACC move to the Sugar vs the SEC. Have the B12 and AAC in the Orange in the next go round.

(12-15-2016 11:29 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(12-15-2016 11:09 AM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  Only 4 P5 teams on BYU's schedule next year (vs. LSU in Houston, @ Mississippi State, Utah & Wisconsin in Provo).

Right, but a G5 school is typically lucky to get 1 home game against a P5 school at all. To have a neutral site game plus 2 home games against P5 schools is something that is virtually impossible to do as a G5 school. Plus, BYU is still able to cherry-pick the handful of G5 schools that they *do* want to play (such as Boise State and Utah State) - you're not going to find too many G5 programs turning down a home-and-home series with BYU. It's not as if though they're missing out on playing any MWC and AAC schools that they believe are worth playing.

If BYU is dipping down to only 2 P5 opponents per year, then we might start having an argument about whether they're truly having scheduling issues. However, their low end of P5 games seems to be 4 per year... and even if it's "only" 4 per year, that's still significantly better than what they could do as a G5 school.

UConn can do it. We have Mizzouri and BC at home next year. Then again, we were a power school recently and have a decent brand.

(12-15-2016 06:05 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Would the PAC XII conceivably be interested?

Any number of them will veto BYU for a long, long, time. It's a California league and California universities and the Mormon church don't mix.

Nick: I'm inclined to agree. Given you say it's a CA conference: would SDSU or Fresno be attractive?

(12-15-2016 09:51 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Nick: I'm inclined to agree. Given you say it's a CA conference: would SDSU or Fresno be attractive?

UCSD will join the PAC before a Cal State school or BYU.

I have long wondered how long it would take before people realized that if they worked together they could corner the market on that valuable sixth spot?

I think the problem with the Mountain West is there's just too much loose fat. Frankly, I think the AAC also overexpanded. What if they took the most lucrative programs from those two conferences (plus BYU and Army) and ran it as a 16-team superconference that really serves as two 8-team conferences that are affiliated with each other more than actually aligned?

I honestly think something like I am showing below is an inevitability.


-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
EAST
Army
Cincinnati
ECU
Navy
Temple
UConn
USF
UCF
-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
WEST
Air Force
Boise State
BYU
Colorado State
Houston
Memphis
San Diego State
SMU
-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------

Honestly, that is a good conference full of good teams and would function as a de facto major conference.

This is an alternative way to have BYU find a conference home; they go after a new MWC split of 8 schools.

Boise State
BYU
Wyoming
Colorado State
Air Force
New Mexico
UTSA
Rice

Go with 8 schools with some new additions like UTSA and Rice for the markets.

Only 7 conference games for football would allow BYU to schedule some nice home-away games with the P5.