(11-24-2016 04:18 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I understand that conferences were trying to keep themselves in a position of strength by adding schools to stay ahead of the conference below it but C-USA and the AAC overexpanded. Heck, even the MWC overexpanded, what does San Jose State add? The Bay Area market wasn't important enough for them to be in the conference originally, so it's just more deadweight no different than why they didn't add Idaho or NMSU. In the recent expansion, here's who shouldn't have been added in each conference:

AAC

Navy (yes, even the probable conference champion)
Tulane
Tulsa

C-USA

FIU/FAU (one or the other)
Western Kentucky, UNT, UTSA or Charlotte (C-USA used to have some prestige, let a startup develop on someone else's dime)

MWC

San Jose State (UTEP instead if possible)
Hawai'i (they could have done a scheduling alliance, also good for Hawai'i as well to be an independent with more games free)

The bigger you get, the more watered down you get. That and you also hurt rivalries.

MWC needed 12 for a ccg. And they really were trying to kill off the WAC. There was no doubt about that.

(11-24-2016 05:59 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  Good lord!!! Why would CUSA keep FAU over Marshall?!? Marshall has had one down year since CUSA 3.0 formed. FAU hasn't had a winning season 2008 and their best record since joining CUSA is 6 - 6. If anything drop the two Florida schools. Marshall, UNCC, ODU, WKU, MTSU are all reasonably close geographically, once UAB is back it's a bit of a haul for Marshall and ODU but still grouped together regionally to minimize travel expenses. With the 3 P5 FL Schools and 2 well established G5 FL Schools, I don't see FIU or FAU ever being that strong.

That would make the west, USM, La Tech, Rice, UTSA, UTEP, No. Tx. also grouped together reasonably well geographically.

The title of the thread was "thinning the herd," not "keeping the Herd."

Liberty should be allowed to go FBS Independent to boot.

The OP forgot UAB. That tells you how informed the opinion was. Also WKU, FIU and MTSU were added after Charlotte, and the 49ers were added while ECU and Tulsa were still members. Schools like Charlotte didn't get the league they thought they'd be getting. Some real revisionist history going on here.

(11-24-2016 05:02 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  There are other factors at hand here, namely that Tulane and Tulsa are small private schools that don't generate a great deal of buzz in their own markets. Navy is competitive on the field at the moment but the nature of their mission disables them from being able to be a trustworthy contributor long term. They could go 0-12 each year and their administration wouldn't care because their primary goal is molding good officers for the armed forces.

I question their addition. Are they really going to draw in the casual fan that much to where they add something to a conference? Maybe if Army, Air Force and Navy were in the same conference it'd work but I just don't see it by themselves. There's a reason why they're in the Patriot League in everything else and Air Force struggles in some notable MWC sports other than football.

Actually, it's Army where football is an afterthought and, like AFA, the gubmint dictates their funding. Navy's separate funding arm helps them care on the field. I preferred Navy stay Indy to grab easy wins in down times myself. I always get a LOL when Army is brought up as an addition, much like when Davidst brings up the next round of JUCOs that cut all their sports to be up for Big 12 inclusion, but it is what it is.

As for Tulsa and Tulane, at least Tulsa competes well and isn't buried in a pro sports market that shrank thanks to Katrina...which if markets is their argument, it's a bad one.

(11-24-2016 08:05 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(11-24-2016 05:59 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  Good lord!!! Why would CUSA keep FAU over Marshall?!? Marshall has had one down year since CUSA 3.0 formed. FAU hasn't had a winning season 2008 and their best record since joining CUSA is 6 - 6. If anything drop the two Florida schools. Marshall, UNCC, ODU, WKU, MTSU are all reasonably close geographically, once UAB is back it's a bit of a haul for Marshall and ODU but still grouped together regionally to minimize travel expenses. With the 3 P5 FL Schools and 2 well established G5 FL Schools, I don't see FIU or FAU ever being that strong.

That would make the west, USM, La Tech, Rice, UTSA, UTEP, No. Tx. also grouped together reasonably well geographically.

The title of the thread was "thinning the herd," not "keeping the Herd."

There's too much bad blood between the MAC and Marshall to reunite, and they don't even want to be a part of us given how much they like being associated with the southern schools. We're not adding anyone unless we're poached anyways.

(11-24-2016 01:23 PM)stever20 Wrote:  they may need to, but they won't. CUSA totally overreacted after the Big East/AAC raided the conference.

Sort of.

From what I've heard from people who have good insight it was sort of a snowball.

They opened up with wanting to add UNT and maybe FIU. ECU, Marshall and UAB wanted more in the east and MWC let them know they were coming after the WAC and would have some added opportunities.

The expansion to 14 was the only way to get the required votes to expand. Three of the eight schools voting in that expansion left shortly after. If Big East/AAC had taken those three concurrent with the other four obviously the voting dynamic would have been different and with each departure there was a sense they needed to plug the new hole.

(11-24-2016 05:02 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(11-24-2016 04:33 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The AAC is interesting. Navy has been great so far for the AAC. division champs both years. Possibly even access bowl bound. Tulsa has been bowl bound in 2 of the 3 years including this, and made the NCAA tourney last year. Really only Tulane- and you want to have an even number.

There are other factors at hand here, namely that Tulane and Tulsa are small private schools that don't generate a great deal of buzz in their own markets. Navy is competitive on the field at the moment but the nature of their mission disables them from being able to be a trustworthy contributor long term. They could go 0-12 each year and their administration wouldn't care because their primary goal is molding good officers for the armed forces.

I question their addition. Are they really going to draw in the casual fan that much to where they add something to a conference? Maybe if Army, Air Force and Navy were in the same conference it'd work but I just don't see it by themselves. There's a reason why they're in the Patriot League in everything else and Air Force struggles in some notable MWC sports other than football.

The AFL and expansion by the NFL changed the dynamic in cities like New Orleans, Dallas, and Houston, the privates had been the only big-time game in town, Average Joe dumped Rice, Tulane, SMU, TCU for the NFL.

The economics of higher ed changed as well. With rising costs and marketing the schools for their selectivity it became harder for Average Joe to identify with the schools.

The guy driving a truck for Texas Dept of Transportation likely views the schools as a haven for rich kids and isn't inclined to support them, but that same guy might give Houston or North Texas a chance when they are winning.

I could see ACC to give Navy the same deal for football that they gave to Notre Dame. Play 5 to 6 games against an ACC school and the seventh with Notre Dame. It would give ND an extra ACC game as well. Navy can be an ACC rep at a major bowl. This would give back the tv market that the ACC lost when Maryland left.

(11-24-2016 08:35 PM)Artifice Wrote:  The OP forgot UAB. That tells you how informed the opinion was. Also WKU, FIU and MTSU were added after Charlotte, and the 49ers were added while ECU and Tulsa were still members. Schools like Charlotte didn't get the league they thought they'd be getting. Some real revisionist history going on here.

Troll bait. Nothing more, nothing less. It is impossible for C-USA to "thin the herd" outright due to contracts that must be honored. I understand what C-USA was trying to accomplish with expansion, but I think we can see what the results of that were, and they were not good, at least not yet. C-USA was trying to build up its basketball image through expansion and add new markets or replace markets that had been lost as well (see Old Dominion, Western Kentucky, etc.). The UNT addition was good (retain DFW market, build up football), but, IMHO, the UTSA addition was a real headscratcher. The same could be said for FIU and FAU. I understand that C-USA wanted a Florida presence, but two schools either at or near the Miami, Florida metropolitan area??? And both pretty much start-ups??? Why wasn't FAMU or Bethune-Cookman given a serious look?? At least both of these schools have established football teams. I can maybe see taking one of FIU/FAU, but both???? IMO, very, very foolish. However, C-USA is now stuck with these headscratchers until some other conference decides to pull the same headscratching move that C-USA did.

I think UTSA has a chance to be a home run. I mean there is no pro football there- in a major Texas city. You already can see how they've progressed so far. I think 20 years from now them and ODU will be the top 2 of the moves they made, and it's not going to be particularly close quite frankly.

CUSA did overreact in adding FAU and FIU. And UTEP and UTSA belongs out west.

C-USA

Ohio
Miami (OH)
Marshall
Charlotte
Old Dominion
WKU
MTSU
FAU
FIU

New Conference:

New Mexico State
UTEP
UTSA
Rice
North Texas
Louisiana Tech
Southern Miss
UAB


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note7 using Tapatalk. Hey, do you smell anything burning?

(11-24-2016 09:10 PM)AllPtsBulletin Wrote:  

(11-24-2016 05:02 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  There are other factors at hand here, namely that Tulane and Tulsa are small private schools that don't generate a great deal of buzz in their own markets. Navy is competitive on the field at the moment but the nature of their mission disables them from being able to be a trustworthy contributor long term. They could go 0-12 each year and their administration wouldn't care because their primary goal is molding good officers for the armed forces.

I question their addition. Are they really going to draw in the casual fan that much to where they add something to a conference? Maybe if Army, Air Force and Navy were in the same conference it'd work but I just don't see it by themselves. There's a reason why they're in the Patriot League in everything else and Air Force struggles in some notable MWC sports other than football.

Actually, it's Army where football is an afterthought and, like AFA, the gubmint dictates their funding. Navy's separate funding arm helps them care on the field. I preferred Navy stay Indy to grab easy wins in down times myself. I always get a LOL when Army is brought up as an addition, much like when Davidst brings up the next round of JUCOs that cut all their sports to be up for Big 12 inclusion, but it is what it is.

As for Tulsa and Tulane, at least Tulsa competes well and isn't buried in a pro sports market that shrank thanks to Katrina...which if markets is their argument, it's a bad one.

You can't possibly convince me Navy doesn't think football is an afterthought. Now maybe they care more than Army but it is no less of an afterthought.

(11-25-2016 01:31 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think UTSA has a chance to be a home run. I mean there is no pro football there- in a major Texas city. You already can see how they've progressed so far. I think 20 years from now them and ODU will be the top 2 of the moves they made, and it's not going to be particularly close quite frankly.

They need their own stadium though. No team that plays in an NFL type stadium does well at the gate consistently, including bigger schools like Pitt and Miami.

But there's no NFL competition. Sure, it might not be on-campus, but they're using it. Their attendance is solid, especially for a newbie.

C-USA and the Sunbelt need to merge. The TV money already sucks, so consolidate along political/competitive lines and control the TV inventory by limiting conference games to 6 and let everyone play more OOC games to increase the spread of individual brands.

SMH, there's nothing I can say that'll convince you otherwise. Look at Memphis, UCF, UAB, etc... also in large markets without the NFL. It just doesn't work without great teams and even that is no guarantee.

You need to build a fabric and community, casual fans will dump you the moment things turn sour no matter how starved they are for a sport.

(11-25-2016 07:00 AM)BamaScorpio69 Wrote:  CUSA did overreact in adding FAU and FIU. And UTEP and UTSA belongs out west.

FIU was in the first round of selection and by many accounts CUSA's #2 on the expansion list.

(11-25-2016 11:28 AM)USM@FTL Wrote:  But there's no NFL competition. Sure, it might not be on-campus, but they're using it. Their attendance is solid, especially for a newbie.

C-USA and the Sunbelt need to merge. The TV money already sucks, so consolidate along political/competitive lines and control the TV inventory by limiting conference games to 6 and let everyone play more OOC games to increase the spread of individual brands.

That takes reasonable cooperation, laying out all your cards and full disclosure, and that is pretty much never on the table as an option.

Far more likely some dissatisfied presidents meet in a hotel or airport meeting room and do something in secret.

Just more likely that a disgruntled group of CUSA schools "form a new conference" with some like-minded Sun Belt and then vote out the outliers and tack a new name on calling it a new conference except when talking to the NCAA and CFP.