(11-25-2016 01:27 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(11-24-2016 08:35 PM)Artifice Wrote:  The OP forgot UAB. That tells you how informed the opinion was. Also WKU, FIU and MTSU were added after Charlotte, and the 49ers were added while ECU and Tulsa were still members. Schools like Charlotte didn't get the league they thought they'd be getting. Some real revisionist history going on here.

Troll bait. Nothing more, nothing less. It is impossible for C-USA to "thin the herd" outright due to contracts that must be honored. I understand what C-USA was trying to accomplish with expansion, but I think we can see what the results of that were, and they were not good, at least not yet. C-USA was trying to build up its basketball image through expansion and add new markets or replace markets that had been lost as well (see Old Dominion, Western Kentucky, etc.). The UNT addition was good (retain DFW market, build up football), but, IMHO, the UTSA addition was a real headscratcher. The same could be said for FIU and FAU. I understand that C-USA wanted a Florida presence, but two schools either at or near the Miami, Florida metropolitan area??? And both pretty much start-ups??? Why wasn't FAMU or Bethune-Cookman given a serious look?? At least both of these schools have established football teams. I can maybe see taking one of FIU/FAU, but both???? IMO, very, very foolish. However, C-USA is now stuck with these headscratchers until some other conference decides to pull the same headscratching move that C-USA did.

It's going to be interesting what happens if CUSA loses someone to MWC, which I think still happens. Whether soon or in a few years, UTEP or Rice are as good as gone. It raises the question should the conference bother to backfill, even with an uneven number?

Yeah, you could see where CUSA was as a conference, with some of those backfills as where it was going, but not totally. It looks scattered. The need for two more Texas schools and both F*U's was just dumb, even if anticipatory (again, UTEP and Rice and wandering eyes), because now there's just so much weight in the Gulf states (over 50% of the conference now) with the only "northeast" or "midwest" presence being Marshall.

My hope is that independence becomes more viable so that some of these conferences shed weight. As is? Yuck. 14's gross...even for the majors.

Since UTEP and Marshall are two schools with the largest football and basketball crowds and the largest revenue generators, maybe C-USA should add UConn and Houston once the AAC applies the same logic to get down to 10 in their league?

Remember, James Madison wants to be with Old Dominion. They do have a much better fan support than some C-USA schools.

The Texas schools might and try to reform SWC 2.0 if they want to.

(11-24-2016 09:10 PM)AllPtsBulletin Wrote:  

(11-24-2016 05:02 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  There are other factors at hand here, namely that Tulane and Tulsa are small private schools that don't generate a great deal of buzz in their own markets. Navy is competitive on the field at the moment but the nature of their mission disables them from being able to be a trustworthy contributor long term. They could go 0-12 each year and their administration wouldn't care because their primary goal is molding good officers for the armed forces.

I question their addition. Are they really going to draw in the casual fan that much to where they add something to a conference? Maybe if Army, Air Force and Navy were in the same conference it'd work but I just don't see it by themselves. There's a reason why they're in the Patriot League in everything else and Air Force struggles in some notable MWC sports other than football.

Actually, it's Army where football is an afterthought and, like AFA, the gubmint dictates their funding. Navy's separate funding arm helps them care on the field. I preferred Navy stay Indy to grab easy wins in down times myself. I always get a LOL when Army is brought up as an addition, much like when Davidst brings up the next round of JUCOs that cut all their sports to be up for Big 12 inclusion, but it is what it is.

As for Tulsa and Tulane, at least Tulsa competes well and isn't buried in a pro sports market that shrank thanks to Katrina...which if markets is their argument, it's a bad one.

LOL all you want, but Army is definitely better known than your school is.

(11-24-2016 12:52 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  Let's think about it for a minute. Is CUSA really as bad as the numbers say, or are they being dragged to the bottom of the canal with a cinder block tied to their ankle?
Without even running the numbers (with various combos), it already makes sense that resources are spread thin with more members.
Perception is key. In order to get a better media deal, the conference needs to perform well relative to other fbs conferences. It's extremely difficult to do that when there are so many teams with bad records.
So, when you compound a finite amount of resources with a diminished perception due to excess dead weight, it doesn't seem like this version of CUSA can catch a break. There is really only one good solution.



Thin the herd
CUSA needs a makeover. They can't wait for the MWC to go into Texas. The conference needs to drop 4 teams (enough to play a championship game) and focus all their resources and energy on making their 10 team conference better.
IMO, thinning the herd is essential to survive. Looking at the following map, I'd argue that CUSA could climb back up if they were to choose the following teams to go forward with.

ODU
Charlotte
FAU
WKU
MTSU
UAB
Southern Miss
Louisiana Tech
UNT
Rice

I see this as one of ONLY two ways CUSA can go to do right by their membership. They must go small or they must go large (to 16) to alleviate travel. If they choose the second option, then CUSA should grab Arkansas State and Georgia State and run two divisions of 8 like they are almost separate conferences.

Being at 14 is the absolute worst even number that CUSA can possibly be at.

The migration of the homeless
In a perfect world, UTEP and UTSA are due for an MWC invite, and the Sunbelt would want to get into Florida with FIU. Marshall has history with the MAC, so that's where the Herd would likely go.

Ok

1) 4 CUSA members are not going to vote themselves out of a conference. I would imagine that 4 no votes would kill off any move to expel members.

2) I'm not sure the Sun Belt is really interested in FIU, FAU or the So Florida market. None of the Belt teams recruit down there (even when FIU and FAU were in the conference). They were in the league before with decidedly mixed results. I think the Belt is good at 10 teams.

3) Why is 14 a better number for the MWC than it is for CUSA?

4) Marshall left the MAC and there's apparently some hard feelings over it. Marshall also heavily recruits South Florida, which would be a problem if they left CUSA.

5) 10 members of CUSA are not going to walk away and form their own new conference either. No NCAA basketball autobid for 6 years would put a stop to that.

---

CUSA is too big. But they really don't have much of a way out at this point.

(11-25-2016 05:10 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-24-2016 12:52 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  Let's think about it for a minute. Is CUSA really as bad as the numbers say, or are they being dragged to the bottom of the canal with a cinder block tied to their ankle?
Without even running the numbers (with various combos), it already makes sense that resources are spread thin with more members.
Perception is key. In order to get a better media deal, the conference needs to perform well relative to other fbs conferences. It's extremely difficult to do that when there are so many teams with bad records.
So, when you compound a finite amount of resources with a diminished perception due to excess dead weight, it doesn't seem like this version of CUSA can catch a break. There is really only one good solution.



Thin the herd
CUSA needs a makeover. They can't wait for the MWC to go into Texas. The conference needs to drop 4 teams (enough to play a championship game) and focus all their resources and energy on making their 10 team conference better.
IMO, thinning the herd is essential to survive. Looking at the following map, I'd argue that CUSA could climb back up if they were to choose the following teams to go forward with.

ODU
Charlotte
FAU
WKU
MTSU
UAB
Southern Miss
Louisiana Tech
UNT
Rice

I see this as one of ONLY two ways CUSA can go to do right by their membership. They must go small or they must go large (to 16) to alleviate travel. If they choose the second option, then CUSA should grab Arkansas State and Georgia State and run two divisions of 8 like they are almost separate conferences.

Being at 14 is the absolute worst even number that CUSA can possibly be at.

The migration of the homeless
In a perfect world, UTEP and UTSA are due for an MWC invite, and the Sunbelt would want to get into Florida with FIU. Marshall has history with the MAC, so that's where the Herd would likely go.

Ok

1) 4 CUSA members are not going to vote themselves out of a conference. I would imagine that 4 no votes would kill off any move to expel members.

2) I'm not sure the Sun Belt is really interested in FIU, FAU or the So Florida market. None of the Belt teams recruit down there (even when FIU and FAU were in the conference). They were in the league before with decidedly mixed results. I think the Belt is good at 10 teams.

3) Why is 14 a better number for the MWC than it is for CUSA?

4) Marshall left the MAC and there's apparently some hard feelings over it. Marshall also heavily recruits South Florida, which would be a problem if they left CUSA.

5) 10 members of CUSA are not going to walk away and form their own new conference either. No NCAA basketball autobid for 6 years would put a stop to that.

---

CUSA is too big. But they really don't have much of a way out at this point.

Would the SWC reforming brings back that autobid? I think they still have some credit left.

(11-25-2016 01:27 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(11-24-2016 08:35 PM)Artifice Wrote:  The OP forgot UAB. That tells you how informed the opinion was. Also WKU, FIU and MTSU were added after Charlotte, and the 49ers were added while ECU and Tulsa were still members. Schools like Charlotte didn't get the league they thought they'd be getting. Some real revisionist history going on here.

Troll bait. Nothing more, nothing less. It is impossible for C-USA to "thin the herd" outright due to contracts that must be honored. I understand what C-USA was trying to accomplish with expansion, but I think we can see what the results of that were, and they were not good, at least not yet. C-USA was trying to build up its basketball image through expansion and add new markets or replace markets that had been lost as well (see Old Dominion, Western Kentucky, etc.). The UNT addition was good (retain DFW market, build up football), but, IMHO, the UTSA addition was a real headscratcher. The same could be said for FIU and FAU. I understand that C-USA wanted a Florida presence, but two schools either at or near the Miami, Florida metropolitan area??? And both pretty much start-ups??? Why wasn't FAMU or Bethune-Cookman given a serious look?? At least both of these schools have established football teams. I can maybe see taking one of FIU/FAU, but both???? IMO, very, very foolish. However, C-USA is now stuck with these headscratchers until some other conference decides to pull the same headscratching move that C-USA did.

Wonder why you think UNT is ok, but UTSA is not? Both are in major markets and both have huge upsides. Especially UTSA, In what year 6 they are knocking on the door for a bowl, and they will only get better. Basketball is a joke, until they get a new building which is on the to do list. Baseball is solid, Volleyball is good, for the main sports. Interested to hear your counter points or was this just troll bait as you mentioned

We'll see what UTSA will be like when the novelty wears off. As I said earlier, they need their own stadium.

CUSA can do it but it has to be around a theme.

1. A 10 team FB oriented conference with Marshall, WKU, MTSU, UAB, USM, AState, LaTech, Louisiana, Georgia Southern, App State. Shed the smaller FB programs of CUSA to compete directly for an access bowl.

2. A 10 team BB oriented conference with Marshall, ODU, Charlotte, GaState, UAB, FAU, FIU, WKU, MTSU, USM. Forget the FB and concentrate on the basketball where more value is possible.

Taking idea #2 rebrand as Conference East, an eastern basketball league.

Atlantic: Marshall, ODU, Charlotte, Georgia St, FIU
Gulf: WKU, MTSU, Southern Miss, UAB, FAU

The remaining CUSA schools then find a home in the SBC or they play as Indy (UTEP).

(11-26-2016 04:44 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  CUSA can do it but it has to be around a theme.

1. A 10 team FB oriented conference with Marshall, WKU, MTSU, UAB, USM, AState, LaTech, Louisiana, Georgia Southern, App State. Shed the smaller FB programs of CUSA to compete directly for an access bowl.

2. A 10 team BB oriented conference with Marshall, ODU, Charlotte, GaState, UAB, FAU, FIU, WKU, MTSU, USM. Forget the FB and concentrate on the basketball where more value is possible.

Taking idea #2 rebrand as Conference East, an eastern basketball league.

Atlantic: Marshall, ODU, Charlotte, Georgia St, FIU
Gulf: WKU, MTSU, Southern Miss, UAB, FAU

The remaining CUSA schools then find a home in the SBC or they play as Indy (UTEP).

The problem remains that for the Belt schools that CUSA would want...that a move to CUSA would be lateral and there'd be no more money in it. And CUSA appears to be far more unstable than the Belt.

From a practical perspective, the conferences aren't going to split apart and put themselves back together in a new way. Too many issues to sort out.

(11-26-2016 04:44 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  2. A 10 team BB oriented conference with Marshall, ODU, Charlotte, GaState, UAB, FAU, FIU, WKU, MTSU, USM. Forget the FB and concentrate on the basketball where more value is possible.

BB = Men's basketball? With the Florida programs? Wow.

(11-26-2016 04:44 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  CUSA can do it but it has to be around a theme.

1. A 10 team FB oriented conference with Marshall, WKU, MTSU, UAB, USM, AState, LaTech, Louisiana, Georgia Southern, App State. Shed the smaller FB programs of CUSA to compete directly for an access bowl.

2. A 10 team BB oriented conference with Marshall, ODU, Charlotte, GaState, UAB, FAU, FIU, WKU, MTSU, USM. Forget the FB and concentrate on the basketball where more value is possible.

Taking idea #2 rebrand as Conference East, an eastern basketball league.

Atlantic: Marshall, ODU, Charlotte, Georgia St, FIU
Gulf: WKU, MTSU, Southern Miss, UAB, FAU

The remaining CUSA schools then find a home in the SBC or they play as Indy (UTEP).

A conference serious about basketball isn't going to include the F_U's.

(11-26-2016 11:44 AM)BamaScorpio69 Wrote:  

(11-26-2016 04:44 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  CUSA can do it but it has to be around a theme.

1. A 10 team FB oriented conference with Marshall, WKU, MTSU, UAB, USM, AState, LaTech, Louisiana, Georgia Southern, App State. Shed the smaller FB programs of CUSA to compete directly for an access bowl.

2. A 10 team BB oriented conference with Marshall, ODU, Charlotte, GaState, UAB, FAU, FIU, WKU, MTSU, USM. Forget the FB and concentrate on the basketball where more value is possible.

Taking idea #2 rebrand as Conference East, an eastern basketball league.

Atlantic: Marshall, ODU, Charlotte, Georgia St, FIU
Gulf: WKU, MTSU, Southern Miss, UAB, FAU

The remaining CUSA schools then find a home in the SBC or they play as Indy (UTEP).

A conference serious about basketball isn't going to include the F_U's.

They would add North Florida and FGCU before those 2.

(11-25-2016 05:10 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  1) 4 CUSA members are not going to vote themselves out of a conference. I would imagine that 4 no votes would kill off any move to expel members.

That depends on bylaws. I don't have a copy. 10/14 is 71%, so if the supermajority is 2/3 or 7/10, it is feasible, if the supermajority is 3/4, that would require 11/14 yes votes. And there aint gonna be any yes votes by a school to kick themselves out.

It would be a different matter if a school was poached ... 10/13 would be over 3/4.

Quote: 2) I'm not sure the Sun Belt is really interested in FIU, FAU or the So Florida market. None of the Belt teams recruit down there (even when FIU and FAU were in the conference). They were in the league before with decidedly mixed results. I think the Belt is good at 10 teams.

I'm not sure, but I seem to recall hearing that Marshall does recruit Florida ... though I don't recall hearing whether that was South Florida or the I-4 corridor. Certainly the Sunbelt has no shortage of recruiting grounds inside it's footprint as is, the challenge is more in winning recruiting battles for higher profile HS players and identifying the diamonds in the rough.

Quote: 3) Why is 14 a better number for the MWC than it is for CUSA?

I reckon it's not ... the same thinking about the MWC expanding to 14 is the same kind of thinking that got CUSA expanding to 14. And unlike CUSA, the MWC does not have to log-roll expansion votes to get to "at least 12", since it's already got 12.

Quote: 4) Marshall left the MAC and there's apparently some hard feelings over it. Marshall also heavily recruits South Florida, which would be a problem if they left CUSA.

So it must have been South Florida I had heard about previously.

There's also no more need for the MAC to expand past 12 than for the MWC to expand past 12.

Quote: 5) 10 members of CUSA are not going to walk away and form their own new conference either. No NCAA basketball autobid for 6 years would put a stop to that.

Swinging it around to (1) ... if CUSA is poached of one, then it becomes feasible for 10 members to boot out the other three.

But the question is still ... why would they? The two CUSA Divisions make a lot more sense for most of their divisional members than CUSA does as a whole. Most of the East would vote to keep most of the East, and most of the West would vote to keep most of the West, and so there wouldn't be ten schools with the same ten schools in the mind to form the supermajority.

UTEP to the MWC is painfully obvious.

Hawaii should go football indy, with a scheduling agreement to play SD St and some other historical WAC teams closer to the coast.



None of the other Texas schools make sense to join them, though. I believe UTSA wants to stay in a league with other (non-western) Texas schools.

Rice would love to go to the AAC, but no room.

Some schools go to Indy, and conference affiliation for an access bowl like Notre Dame.

Old Dominion, UTSA, UMASS and Southern Miss. could make an arrangements with the AAC to play 5 to 6 games with AAC schools as independents, could compete in AAC championships in football and be part of the AAC bowl matchups.

Jacksonville State can be Independent with an agreement with the Sun Belt for 5 to 6 games, access to SBC football championship and a SBC bowl access.

Northern Iowa, Illinois State, Youngstown State and Indiana State do the same thing for the MAC.

Hawaii, San Diego State, Colorado State, New Mexico, SMU and Houston could do the exact same thing with the PAC 12. This could expand the PAC 12 Network into new tv markets.

Air Force, Tulane, Memphis, UCF, USF and Northern Illinois can make the same agreement with the Big 12.

UConn and Stony Brook could make an arrangements with the Big 10 as well.

James Madison, Delaware, Portland State, Montana, Montana State, Sacramento State, Lamar, Sam Houston State, McNeese State, Eastern Washington, West Texas A&M, New Hampshire, North Dakota State, South Dakota State, North Dakota, Eastern Kentucky, Chattanooga, Central Arkansas, Liberty, New Hampshire and several other FCS schools could find homes after teams move around.

D2 schools could be called up. I could see Long Island U. to merge with LIU-Post and bring the football up to D1 FCS.
Texas A&M-Kingsville and some other Lone Star schools could move up to Southland.

This is what needs to happen to correct mistakes from the past by the FBS and the NCAA. The rules work back then when the expense of travel, food and lodging were not too high.

Make one public university in a state that are not represented in a P5 conference.

Alaska after all the mergers.
Hawaii
UNR
Boise State
Wyoming
New Mexico
Montana
North Dakota State
South Dakota State
Maine
Vermont
New Hampshire
U.Conn.
U.Mass.
Buffalo or Stony Brook
Delaware
URI

The Sunbelt is currently fighting for 3rd in the G5 rankings this year. If CUSA wants someone from the Sunbelt, they best do it before tv contract renegotiations imo

(11-26-2016 11:50 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  The two CUSA Divisions make a lot more sense for most of their divisional members than CUSA does as a whole. Most of the East would vote to keep most of the East, and most of the West would vote to keep most of the West, and so there wouldn't be ten schools with the same ten schools in the mind to form the supermajority.

I think this is correct. During the growing pains, it makes sense to soldier on with 7 and 7, until the blue blood programs emerge. We all grumble about splitting a very small pie 14 ways, but most programs don't want to lose any geographically near them.

I think any split will be MWC-like. The central schools that are mostly doing well now (Southern Miss, Western Kentucky, Middle Tennessee, and UAB) will start the break-up.

(11-26-2016 09:27 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-26-2016 04:44 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  CUSA can do it but it has to be around a theme.

1. A 10 team FB oriented conference with Marshall, WKU, MTSU, UAB, USM, AState, LaTech, Louisiana, Georgia Southern, App State. Shed the smaller FB programs of CUSA to compete directly for an access bowl.

2. A 10 team BB oriented conference with Marshall, ODU, Charlotte, GaState, UAB, FAU, FIU, WKU, MTSU, USM. Forget the FB and concentrate on the basketball where more value is possible.

Taking idea #2 rebrand as Conference East, an eastern basketball league.

Atlantic: Marshall, ODU, Charlotte, Georgia St, FIU
Gulf: WKU, MTSU, Southern Miss, UAB, FAU

The remaining CUSA schools then find a home in the SBC or they play as Indy (UTEP).

The problem remains that for the Belt schools that CUSA would want...that a move to CUSA would be lateral and there'd be no more money in it. And CUSA appears to be far more unstable than the Belt.

What I'm proposing is 9 of CUSA's schools leave and add just one SBC school in Georgia State.

Obviously for this to work there would have to be a sense by the TV partners that a conference like this could be viable. I'm not sure at this point that it is. That is why I'm thinking rebranding as a basketball conference that has FBS football would be more out of the box than trying to be an enhanced version of the SBC.

The way UTEP is playing in football and basketball, we are lucky to be in C-USA. We just can't live anymore on "at least we have good on campus facilities and fan support" if both revenue sports suck. The basketball team just lost to Southeastern Louisiana. We need a new AD, FB and BB coaches ASAP.