Prior to the season there was a lot of talk regarding the ACC and the putrid state its football programs, sans FSU and Clemson, were in. Plenty of FSU fans and Clemson fans bemoaning all types of negative talking points from attendance to rankings to facilities investment. So, is it too early to say that ACC football is obviously in an upward trend. That it is no longer FSU then everyone else. Or, FSU/Clemson and everyone else. Could one say that the ACC possess the best division in college football with Clemson/Louisville/FSU standing on equal footing as OSU/Mich/MSU? Has Miami turned the corner is starting their climb back up? VaTech? Pitt? Even UNC making a case to be above mediocrity? What say you?

The ACC is definitely improving. Clemson is a title contender with Louisville & Miami moving into the conversation. The depth is improving & I would say that the ACC is top 3 this season. Still a lot of football to be played though.

The Atlantic division is tough at the 1-3 spots, but there is, in all fairness, a huge gap between 1-3 and 4-7. Syracuse got pasted by USF. NCSU should not be losing to ECU. BC and WF don't look very strong either. That Louisville/Maryland trade looks better every year, tho.

(09-19-2016 10:23 AM)Indytarheel Wrote:  Prior to the season there was a lot of talk regarding the ACC and the putrid state its football programs, sans FSU and Clemson, were in. Plenty of FSU fans and Clemson fans bemoaning all types of negative talking points from attendance to rankings to facilities investment. So, is it too early to say that ACC football is obviously in an upward trend. That it is no longer FSU then everyone else. Or, FSU/Clemson and everyone else. Could one say that the ACC possess the best division in college football with Clemson/Louisville/FSU standing on equal footing as OSU/Mich/MSU? Has Miami turned the corner is starting their climb back up? VaTech? Pitt? Even UNC making a case to be above mediocrity? What say you?

Improving? Yes.

"There"? Not yet.

The Atlantic Division does appear to be at least 3 teams deep. I'll even go so far as suggest that Wake Forest and Syracuse are significantly better, too - but not on par with the top 3.

The Coastal Division is harder to estimate (as usual). Georgia Tech and Miami are both undefeated, but haven't really been tested yet, either. UNC, Pitt and Va Tech all have disappointing losses they could have won (VT's wasn't close, but it WAS largely self-inflicted).

In the case of VT, I can say the team is transitioning nicely under a new head coach and new offensive system, and I believe the Hokies will be very dangerous by the end of the season. Perhaps others can comment on their teams...

(09-19-2016 10:51 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Improving? Yes.

"There"? Not yet.

The Atlantic Division does appear to be at least 3 teams deep. I'll even go so far as suggest that Wake Forest and Syracuse are significantly better, too - but not on par with the top 3.

The Coastal Division is harder to estimate (as usual). Georgia Tech and Miami are both undefeated, but haven't really been tested yet, either. UNC, Pitt and Va Tech all have disappointing losses they could have won (VT's wasn't close, but it WAS largely self-inflicted).

In the case of VT, I can say the team is transitioning nicely under a new head coach and new offensive system, and I believe the Hokies will be very dangerous by the end of the season. Perhaps others can comment on their teams...

Pretty much agree.

However, I'll go further...it doesn't need to actually get THAT much better. We're not trying to out-SEC the SEC here. We actually specifically don't WANT this conference to turn into a true meat grinder.

In my opinion, we don't need to get much better at the bottom. It would be better if Virginia isn't 0-2 to an FCS+UConn...they should be taking those L's in conference.

If Pitt beats OSU (or any scrub team they should have been playing instead of PSU and OSU back to back) they are probably ranked or on their way into the rankings.

Here's all the ACC really needed to have happen. Have UNC beat UGA, and Pitt beat OSU (or someone else).

Four teams in the top 15 now is good. If UNC beats GA, they're ranked too, with an game against Pitt in which the winner will be ranked (and possibly even the loser if Pitt wins).

That would do it. That's plenty of ranked games for teams to have to go through so that a 0 or 1 loss champion will have playoff cred.

I know everyone wants to be good, but it's really not a major drag on the conference if Syracuse, BC, UVA and Duke are pretty bad. WF probably isn't very good, but looks like they have an excellent shot to go bowling, you can't want or expect more than that from them. NC State is probably going to be mediocre as usual.

I don't think that's a bad place to be. I'd argue that if you're not going to compete for a ranking, you might as well be REAL bad, and not be knocking off the teams that are in the hunt for a ranking. I'd rather have 4 really bad teams and a couple mediocre ones than the reverse.

That was modus operandi for years in the ACC...the bad teams were decent enough to ruin some other teams seasons. If 11-12 ACC teams are bowl eligible, I'm going to submit that the ACC didn't have a great football season.

All in all, the ACC really didn't take many bad losses this OOC, and mostly got the wins they were supposed to. I don't know if it's a big improvement from the last few years, because the trend has been pretty good of late, but it's a huge improvement on the 20 years before that.

(09-19-2016 11:12 AM)Lou_C Wrote:  

(09-19-2016 10:51 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Improving? Yes.

"There"? Not yet.

The Atlantic Division does appear to be at least 3 teams deep. I'll even go so far as suggest that Wake Forest and Syracuse are significantly better, too - but not on par with the top 3.

The Coastal Division is harder to estimate (as usual). Georgia Tech and Miami are both undefeated, but haven't really been tested yet, either. UNC, Pitt and Va Tech all have disappointing losses they could have won (VT's wasn't close, but it WAS largely self-inflicted).

In the case of VT, I can say the team is transitioning nicely under a new head coach and new offensive system, and I believe the Hokies will be very dangerous by the end of the season. Perhaps others can comment on their teams...

Pretty much agree.

However, I'll go further...it doesn't need to actually get THAT much better. We're not trying to out-SEC the SEC here. We actually specifically don't WANT this conference to turn into a true meat grinder.

In my opinion, we don't need to get much better at the bottom. It would be better if Virginia isn't 0-2 to an FCS+UConn...they should be taking those L's in conference.

If Pitt beats OSU (or any scrub team they should have been playing instead of PSU and OSU back to back) they are probably ranked or on their way into the rankings.

Here's all the ACC really needed to have happen. Have UNC beat UGA, and Pitt beat OSU (or someone else).

Four teams in the top 15 now is good. If UNC beats GA, they're ranked too, with an game against Pitt in which the winner will be ranked (and possibly even the loser if Pitt wins).

That would do it. That's plenty of ranked games for teams to have to go through so that a 0 or 1 loss champion will have playoff cred.

I know everyone wants to be good, but it's really not a major drag on the conference if Syracuse, BC, UVA and Duke are pretty bad. WF probably isn't very good, but looks like they have an excellent shot to go bowling, you can't want or expect more than that from them. NC State is probably going to be mediocre as usual.

I don't think that's a bad place to be. I'd argue that if you're not going to compete for a ranking, you might as well be REAL bad, and not be knocking off the teams that are in the hunt for a ranking. I'd rather have 4 really bad teams and a couple mediocre ones than the reverse.

That was modus operandi for years in the ACC...the bad teams were decent enough to ruin some other teams seasons. If 11-12 ACC teams are bowl eligible, I'm going to submit that the ACC didn't have a great football season.

All in all, the ACC really didn't take many bad losses this OOC, and mostly got the wins they were supposed to. I don't know if it's a big improvement from the last few years, because the trend has been pretty good of late, but it's a huge improvement on the 20 years before that.

Agreed, Pitt's scheduling was dumb. I don't know why they scheduled a difficult away game the week after Penn State. If they had played a Mac team and won, they'd be ranked or very close to it.

The ACC is the best conference right now IMO....of course it's improving.

Look at where the good QBs are this year....

The SEC is still good, but Bama owns it right now. Who is the second best team? Louisville just blew out the team that beat Ole Miss

The ACC has been in upward trend since the end of 2011.

Yes FSU and Clemson did the heavy lifting, and Louisville clearly added depth but several ACC other programs have notable wins and results since then.

Virginia Tech beat Ohio State
Georgia Tech with wins over Mississippi State, Georgia, and USC and a top 10 finish
Boston College beat USC
Pittsburgh beat Penn State
Miami beat Florida

Duke had a quality 3 year run prior to this year. Pittsburgh is better, VT is better, UNC is better. Miami is better.

The ACC is 12-11 against the SEC in their last 23 games.

By any measure the ACC is no worse than 3rd among the power 5 right now. I would say the ACC has just about arrived. To me it's more about maintaining rather than changing perceptions. The ACC is a good football league right now.

(09-19-2016 11:27 AM)GTTiger Wrote:  The ACC has been in upward trend since the end of 2011.

Yes FSU and Clemson did the heavy lifting, and Louisville clearly added depth but several ACC other programs have notable wins and results since then.

Virginia Tech beat Ohio State
Georgia Tech with wins over Mississippi State, Georgia, and USC and a top 10 finish
Boston College beat USC
Pittsburgh beat Penn State
Miami beat Florida

Duke had a quality 3 year run prior to this year. Pittsburgh is better, VT is better, UNC is better. Miami is better.

The ACC is 12-11 against the SEC in their last 23 games.

By any measure the ACC is no worse than 3rd among the power 5 right now. I would say the ACC has just about arrived. To me it's more about maintaining rather than changing perceptions. The ACC is a good football league right now.

Applause

(09-19-2016 11:27 AM)GTTiger Wrote:  The ACC has been in upward trend since the end of 2011.

Yes FSU and Clemson did the heavy lifting, and Louisville clearly added depth but several ACC other programs have notable wins and results since then.

Virginia Tech beat Ohio State
Georgia Tech with wins over Mississippi State, Georgia, and USC and a top 10 finish
Boston College beat USC
Pittsburgh beat Penn State
Miami beat Florida

Duke had a quality 3 year run prior to this year. Pittsburgh is better, VT is better, UNC is better. Miami is better.

The ACC is 12-11 against the SEC in their last 23 games.

By any measure the ACC is no worse than 3rd among the power 5 right now. I would say the ACC has just about arrived. To me it's more about maintaining rather than changing perceptions. The ACC is a good football league right now.

Would agree that at this point, maintaining is more important than significant ascension.

The Big 12 is collapsing in terms of football perception...what a terrible year they are having. I would say they're all but eliminated from the playoffs unless things really break their way. Simply maintaining puts the Big 12 in the ACC's rear view mirror.

(09-19-2016 11:42 AM)Lou_C Wrote:  

(09-19-2016 11:27 AM)GTTiger Wrote:  The ACC has been in upward trend since the end of 2011.

Yes FSU and Clemson did the heavy lifting, and Louisville clearly added depth but several ACC other programs have notable wins and results since then.

Virginia Tech beat Ohio State
Georgia Tech with wins over Mississippi State, Georgia, and USC and a top 10 finish
Boston College beat USC
Pittsburgh beat Penn State
Miami beat Florida

Duke had a quality 3 year run prior to this year. Pittsburgh is better, VT is better, UNC is better. Miami is better.

The ACC is 12-11 against the SEC in their last 23 games.

By any measure the ACC is no worse than 3rd among the power 5 right now. I would say the ACC has just about arrived. To me it's more about maintaining rather than changing perceptions. The ACC is a good football league right now.

Would agree that at this point, maintaining is more important than significant ascension.

The Big 12 is collapsing in terms of football perception...what a terrible year they are having. I would say they're all but eliminated from the playoffs unless things really break their way. Simply maintaining puts the Big 12 in the ACC's rear view mirror.

BIG XII-- each major conference at least has some teams at the top. Who is at the top for the Big XII?? Oklahoma is gone...Texas lost, TCU lost....Baylor???

Baylor and WVa would be considered the leaders but Baylor's schedule strength will not help them. The loses by the rest of the conference will not help either.

(09-19-2016 12:08 PM)Indytarheel Wrote:  Baylor and WVa would be considered the leaders but Baylor's schedule strength will not help them. The loses by the rest of the conference will not help either.

Yep, and I don't like their chances. If one of them runs the table, yeah, they'll be in, but I don't think that's a great prospect.

And the big problem is that with all the Ls that the Big 12 has taken out of conference, if you're a one loss Big 12 team, where's your signature win? If Texas or TCU win out, and are 11-1, what kind of scalps are they going to have on their resume? Especially weighed against an only ok loss?

Not that this is going to happen, but as bad as FSU's loss is, they already have Ole Miss on their belt, with games to come against # 6 Clemson, #15 Miami, #19 UF, a UNC team that could get ranked again, and a possibly a ranked opponent in an ACC CCG.

IF FSU won out, they'd have made a very strong case for inclusion. And FSU is at best the third most likely team to win the ACC.

Not sure a Big 12 champion has a strong chance to win themselves into position. They're in bad shape this year.

I guess I disagree with the premise of the OP that "there was a lot of talk regarding the ACC and the putrid state its football programs" other than FSU and Clemson. Coming into this season, there was a lot of optimism about UNC after a top ten finish last year, GT's potential to return to 2014 form, Louisville's continued improvement and potential to challenge CU and FSU in the Atlantic, and the U's and VT's potential to return to prominence with the hiring of Richt and Fuente, respectively.

(09-19-2016 12:42 PM)orangefan Wrote:  I guess I disagree with the premise of the OP that "there was a lot of talk regarding the ACC and the putrid state its football programs" other than FSU and Clemson. Coming into this season, there was a lot of optimism about UNC after a top ten finish last year, GT's potential to return to 2014 form, Louisville's continued improvement and potential to challenge CU and FSU in the Atlantic, and the U's and VT's potential to return to prominence with the hiring of Richt and Fuente, respectively.

Agreed.

Most of the preseason articles by high-profile writers were very optimistic on the ACC. The conference was widely praised with the batch of new hires like Richt, Fuente, Babers, and even Mendenhall to a lesser extent.

I think most still assumed it was a two-horse race between FSU and Clemson, but I hadn't gotten the impression that the ACC was getting pegged as a bad conference.

And as far as investment in facilities? I think we've seen most ACC teams invest in their football programs. Duke just completed a big renovation of Wallace Wade Stadium, the Carrier Dome is getting a new roof, Miami is fundraising for an indoor practice facility... I can go on, but I don't think that's an issue at all.

It's unfortunate, but I think the stigma of the ACC being a bad football conference came from the stretch where Miami, Clemson and FSU didn't live up to expectations. But that's no longer the case.

(09-19-2016 12:42 PM)orangefan Wrote:  I guess I disagree with the premise of the OP that "there was a lot of talk regarding the ACC and the putrid state its football programs" other than FSU and Clemson. Coming into this season, there was a lot of optimism about UNC after a top ten finish last year, GT's potential to return to 2014 form, Louisville's continued improvement and potential to challenge CU and FSU in the Atlantic, and the U's and VT's potential to return to prominence with the hiring of Richt and Fuente, respectively.

Although there were plenty who were optimistic about ACC football perception changing, plenty in the FSU and Clemson fan bases were not so optimistic. Plenty pointed to a "lack of will" when it came to investment into football facilities, etc. They obviously pointed to the perceived disadvantage of having to play in the ACC. Wasn't really talking about the talking heads, etc.

(09-19-2016 02:14 PM)Indytarheel Wrote:  

(09-19-2016 12:42 PM)orangefan Wrote:  I guess I disagree with the premise of the OP that "there was a lot of talk regarding the ACC and the putrid state its football programs" other than FSU and Clemson. Coming into this season, there was a lot of optimism about UNC after a top ten finish last year, GT's potential to return to 2014 form, Louisville's continued improvement and potential to challenge CU and FSU in the Atlantic, and the U's and VT's potential to return to prominence with the hiring of Richt and Fuente, respectively.

Although there were plenty who were optimistic about ACC football perception changing, plenty in the FSU and Clemson fan bases were not so optimistic. Plenty pointed to a "lack of will" when it came to investment into football facilities, etc. They obviously pointed to the perceived disadvantage of having to play in the ACC. Wasn't really talking about the talking heads, etc.

Regarding facilities, both Syracuse and Virginia Tech have built indoor practice facilities that are ranked among the 15 best in college football. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/26246...e-football

Miami is also building a new $20 million indoor practice facility.

Syracuse is doing a $200 million+ renovation of the Carrier Dome. I know it was the Dolphin's decision, but the renovations to Miami Stadium are incredible. Louisville has approved another expansion of Papa John's. Duke has just spent $100 million upgrading Wallace Wade.

While watching the replay of FSU-UofL yesterday after attending the game, I saw the in-game trivia was "When is the last time the ACC had a Top 10 conference match-up not involving FSU? I believe the answer was #2 BC vs. #10 Virginia Tech in 2007.

9 years? That is ugly. IF Clemson and UofL both win Saturday, the streak ends on October 1st. Overall we appear to be in a better place than a few seasons ago, that's for sure.

(09-19-2016 01:33 PM)H.U.S.T.L.E. Wrote:  

(09-19-2016 12:42 PM)orangefan Wrote:  I guess I disagree with the premise of the OP that "there was a lot of talk regarding the ACC and the putrid state its football programs" other than FSU and Clemson. Coming into this season, there was a lot of optimism about UNC after a top ten finish last year, GT's potential to return to 2014 form, Louisville's continued improvement and potential to challenge CU and FSU in the Atlantic, and the U's and VT's potential to return to prominence with the hiring of Richt and Fuente, respectively.

Agreed.

Most of the preseason articles by high-profile writers were very optimistic on the ACC. The conference was widely praised with the batch of new hires like Richt, Fuente, Babers, and even Mendenhall to a lesser extent.

I think most still assumed it was a two-horse race between FSU and Clemson, but I hadn't gotten the impression that the ACC was getting pegged as a bad conference.

And as far as investment in facilities? I think we've seen most ACC teams invest in their football programs. Duke just completed a big renovation of Wallace Wade Stadium, the Carrier Dome is getting a new roof, Miami is fundraising for an indoor practice facility... I can go on, but I don't think that's an issue at all.

It's unfortunate, but I think the stigma of the ACC being a bad football conference came from the stretch where Miami, Clemson and FSU didn't live up to expectations. But that's no longer the case.

That's not accurate...you may be young. That way undersells how bad the ACC has been. The ACC has been a mediocre to bad football conference since before Miami or even FSU sniffed membership. I've done it before...but you can go decade by decade...there isn't one decade in which the ACC did not have the fewest top ten AP finishes of any major conference. And major conference includes long dead conferences like the SWC, Big 8 and even Big East.

The blame can't fall just on FSU, Miami or Clemson, although they all share. This has been, historically and from it's inception, a poor football conference, there is just no other way to slice it. If anything, down years from Miami, FSU and Clemson match the typical ACC norm in it's history.

We are literally in uncharted territory in ACC football right now. This conference has NEVER been this good.

It didn't happen by accident, or by just being in an "up cycle". This is a conference very clearly de-emphasized football, both as a conference and as individual schools, lumberpack has documented it and the anectdotal evidence is endless. But it's been clear that over the last several years that there have been some concrete moves over the last several years by MOST of the schools to fix things.

(09-19-2016 03:03 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  We are literally in uncharted territory in ACC football right now. This conference has NEVER been this good.