(07-06-2016 12:38 PM)UofMstateU Wrote: Salamoni and Lake (police officers) had responded to a disturbance call in which the caller said someone had been threatening him with a gun, police told the news station.
Baton Rouge Police have released few details about the shooting, including whether Sterling was armed. But a witness told The Advocate that Sterling did have a gun, but was not holding it or reaching for his pockets during the incident.
Sterling was a registered sex offender, state records show. He was convicted in 2000 of carnal knowledge of a juvenile and was released from prison in 2004. Details of that case were not immediately available.
Sterling also had convictions for aggravated battery, criminal damage to property, unauthorized entry and domestic abuse battery, The Advocate reports. He was sentenced to five years in prison in 2009 for possession of marijuana with the intent to distribute and carrying an illegal weapon with a controlled dangerous substance.
So he was a felon under disability. Did he have a gun on him or not?
Honest question. If he did have a gun on him, does it matter legally if he was reaching for it or not?
Yes it matters. As does his reaction to the officers. You know as well as I do that he wouldn't be shot for being in possession of a firearm illegally. Now if he was struggling with the cops and fighting them because he didn't want them to find the firearm, it is his actions that potentially lead to his death and not the possession of the firearm.
But you cant prove that he was fighting becaues he didnt want them to find the gun. Someone already posted that he wasnt reaching in his pocket. So al you have so far is that he was resisting arrest. Can you shoot someone for resisting arrest?
You can't prove anything, blah blah blah.
Here is how they do it in Bali. Would you call the officers Black or Brown BTW?
Nothing to see here folks. He was a fine outstanding young man.
If he was armed and going for his gun then what other recourse did the cops have? The video doesn't show that part. If he didn't have a gun and it's not true that his hands weren't going to his pockets those cops have a lot of 'splaining to do.
Don't jump to conclusions before the facts are in.
I would agree with you except that someone has already posted that he wasnt going for his gun when they shot him. Thats why i asked if it mattered. Apparently, the consensus is that it does matter.
Once again, it's fine to have a discussion about when it's appropriate for police to use lethal force, but don't trot out the BS that the rules of engagement are different with black suspects. SJWs lose every time these theories are scrutinized with actual facts in the justice system.
(This post was last modified: 07-06-2016 01:10 PM by EigenEagle.)
(07-06-2016 01:09 PM)EigenEagle Wrote: Once again, it's fine to have a discussion about when it's appropriate for police to use lethal force, but don't trot out the BS that the rules of engagement are different with black suspects. SJWs lose every time these theories are scrutinized with actual facts in the justice system.
(07-06-2016 01:09 PM)EigenEagle Wrote: Once again, it's fine to have a discussion about when it's appropriate for police to use lethal force, but don't trot out the BS that the rules of engagement are different with black suspects. SJWs lose every time these theories are scrutinized with actual facts in the justice system.
Who is doing that?
That's the very premise of "Black Lives Matter", who gets butthurt whenever anyone says "all lives matter".
Quote:Sterling also had convictions for aggravated battery, criminal damage to property, unauthorized entry and domestic abuse battery, The Advocate reports. He was sentenced to five years in prison in 2009 for possession of marijuana with the intent to distribute and carrying an illegal weapon with a controlled dangerous substance.
FIVE years in prison for possessing/selling weed.
I have to wonder if he was given less than five years for those other violent acts (battery, damage, domestic abuse).
The video clip that I saw showed him down on the ground with 2 officers right on top of him, I'd be curious to know how he'd even "go for his gun" from that position, he appeared subdued. Maybe more videos will come to light, because witnesses will be unreliable, but imo the position he was in, it did not look like the need for officers to use deadly force was there.
(07-06-2016 01:09 PM)EigenEagle Wrote: Once again, it's fine to have a discussion about when it's appropriate for police to use lethal force, but don't trot out the BS that the rules of engagement are different with black suspects. SJWs lose every time these theories are scrutinized with actual facts in the justice system.
Who is doing that?
That's the very premise of "Black Lives Matter", who gets butthurt whenever anyone says "all lives matter".
Unless they are posting on this forum, who cares what they are saying.
I only heard about this an hour ago, and saw the video, which on the surface doesn't look good for the cops. Of course Sterling's hands were hidden from camera's sight, so it'll be the policeman's word against a dead guy's as to what he was trying to do (if anything).
Every one of these cases is different, and thus far it looks like there's a strong chance that the cops overreacted. But we'll see if/when more details come out.
Thing is, in almost every one of these situations, the shooting victim has a criminal rap sheet a mile long. Prior arrests are technically irrelevant to the here-and-now situation, but it does prevent me from feeling 100% 'completely' sympathetic (unfortunately).
(07-06-2016 01:25 PM)boroeagle2 Wrote: The video clip that I saw showed him down on the ground with 2 officers right on top of him, I'd be curious to know how he'd even "go for his gun" from that position, he appeared subdued. Maybe more videos will come to light, because witnesses will be unreliable, but imo the position he was in, it did not look like the need for officers to use deadly force was there.
Great summary!
So far there is 45ish seconds of actual video out for public consumption. It shows the officers tackling and subduing Sterling after ordering him on the ground, yelling he has a gun and not to move (while there are two grown men on top of him) and then shooting him. You can only see the right side of Sterling's body as the left side is obstructed by a vehicle so you dont have a clear picture of what was going on the left side where the 2nd officer was. The right side showed Sterling's arm clearly pinned down by the officer's knee.
I am curious to know what led up to the tacking of Sterling. Knowing this would help explain the type of situation they were in and what type of suspect they were dealing with.
(This post was last modified: 07-06-2016 01:33 PM by solohawks.)
(07-06-2016 01:25 PM)boroeagle2 Wrote: The video clip that I saw showed him down on the ground with 2 officers right on top of him, I'd be curious to know how he'd even "go for his gun" from that position, he appeared subdued. Maybe more videos will come to light, because witnesses will be unreliable, but imo the position he was in, it did not look like the need for officers to use deadly force was there.
Great summary!
So far there is 45ish seconds of actual video out for public consumption. It shows the officers tackling and subduing Sterling after ordering him on the ground, yelling he has a gun and not to move (while there are two grown men on top of him) and then shooting him. You can only see the right side of Sterling's body as the left side is obstructed by a vehicle so you dont have a clear picture of what was going on the left side where the 2nd officer was. The right side showed Sterling's arm clearly pinned down by the officer's knee.
I am curious to know what led up to the tacking of Sterling. Knowing this would help explain the type of situation they were in and what type of suspect they were dealing with.
(07-06-2016 12:38 PM)UofMstateU Wrote: Salamoni and Lake (police officers) had responded to a disturbance call in which the caller said someone had been threatening him with a gun, police told the news station.
Baton Rouge Police have released few details about the shooting, including whether Sterling was armed. But a witness told The Advocate that Sterling did have a gun, but was not holding it or reaching for his pockets during the incident.
Sterling was a registered sex offender, state records show. He was convicted in 2000 of carnal knowledge of a juvenile and was released from prison in 2004. Details of that case were not immediately available.
Sterling also had convictions for aggravated battery, criminal damage to property, unauthorized entry and domestic abuse battery, The Advocate reports. He was sentenced to five years in prison in 2009 for possession of marijuana with the intent to distribute and carrying an illegal weapon with a controlled dangerous substance.
So he was a felon under disability. Did he have a gun on him or not?
Honest question. If he did have a gun on him, does it matter legally if he was reaching for it or not?
Yes it matters. As does his reaction to the officers. You know as well as I do that he wouldn't be shot for being in possession of a firearm illegally. Now if he was struggling with the cops and fighting them because he didn't want them to find the firearm, it is his actions that potentially lead to his death and not the possession of the firearm.
But you cant prove that he was fighting becaues he didnt want them to find the gun. Someone already posted that he wasnt reaching in his pocket. So al you have so far is that he was resisting arrest. Can you shoot someone for resisting arrest?
If their resisting poses a threat to the officers life. That is yet to be proven so there's no need to rush to judgement. Let the authorities do their job
(07-06-2016 01:25 PM)boroeagle2 Wrote: The video clip that I saw showed him down on the ground with 2 officers right on top of him, I'd be curious to know how he'd even "go for his gun" from that position, he appeared subdued. Maybe more videos will come to light, because witnesses will be unreliable, but imo the position he was in, it did not look like the need for officers to use deadly force was there.
Great summary!
So far there is 45ish seconds of actual video out for public consumption. It shows the officers tackling and subduing Sterling after ordering him on the ground, yelling he has a gun and not to move (while there are two grown men on top of him) and then shooting him. You can only see the right side of Sterling's body as the left side is obstructed by a vehicle so you dont have a clear picture of what was going on the left side where the 2nd officer was. The right side showed Sterling's arm clearly pinned down by the officer's knee.
I am curious to know what led up to the tacking of Sterling. Knowing this would help explain the type of situation they were in and what type of suspect they were dealing with.
Why did they takle him? If he pointed the gun they would have just shot him. If they knew he had a gun, they would have asked him to drop it first. Its weird.
(07-06-2016 01:25 PM)boroeagle2 Wrote: The video clip that I saw showed him down on the ground with 2 officers right on top of him, I'd be curious to know how he'd even "go for his gun" from that position, he appeared subdued. Maybe more videos will come to light, because witnesses will be unreliable, but imo the position he was in, it did not look like the need for officers to use deadly force was there.
Great summary!
So far there is 45ish seconds of actual video out for public consumption. It shows the officers tackling and subduing Sterling after ordering him on the ground, yelling he has a gun and not to move (while there are two grown men on top of him) and then shooting him. You can only see the right side of Sterling's body as the left side is obstructed by a vehicle so you dont have a clear picture of what was going on the left side where the 2nd officer was. The right side showed Sterling's arm clearly pinned down by the officer's knee.
I am curious to know what led up to the tacking of Sterling. Knowing this would help explain the type of situation they were in and what type of suspect they were dealing with.
His left hand is pinned. His right arm is free. When people carry without a rig (holster) be it inside the waistband or outside, they traditionally carry in a front pocket of shorts, baggy pants, or jacket. In the pocket on the side of the body that is their strong hand. Police are trained up on this. If he was carrying in his right pocket and he had a free right arm...Moving that arm towards that pocket is not a good idea.
Plus, they were on alert that they were approaching a guy with a gun due to the dispatch call so don't think for a second they were not on edge. These guys want to get home to families after work just like we do.
Like I said, if they broke the law, fry them. If he had a gun, and was breaking the law by even being in possession of one, I can tell you that the cops are going to get the benefit of the doubt.
(This post was last modified: 07-06-2016 01:46 PM by rath v2.0.)
(07-06-2016 01:25 PM)boroeagle2 Wrote: The video clip that I saw showed him down on the ground with 2 officers right on top of him, I'd be curious to know how he'd even "go for his gun" from that position, he appeared subdued. Maybe more videos will come to light, because witnesses will be unreliable, but imo the position he was in, it did not look like the need for officers to use deadly force was there.
Great summary!
So far there is 45ish seconds of actual video out for public consumption. It shows the officers tackling and subduing Sterling after ordering him on the ground, yelling he has a gun and not to move (while there are two grown men on top of him) and then shooting him. You can only see the right side of Sterling's body as the left side is obstructed by a vehicle so you dont have a clear picture of what was going on the left side where the 2nd officer was. The right side showed Sterling's arm clearly pinned down by the officer's knee.
I am curious to know what led up to the tacking of Sterling. Knowing this would help explain the type of situation they were in and what type of suspect they were dealing with.
Why did they takle him? If he pointed the gun they would have just shot him. If they knew he had a gun, they would have asked him to drop it first. Its weird.
They didn't acknowledge the gun until after he was tackled and they were on top of him. Their proclamations made it apparent to me that the gun did not come into play until after they were on top of him, in terms of a threat to their life or safety
(This post was last modified: 07-06-2016 01:46 PM by solohawks.)
(07-06-2016 01:25 PM)boroeagle2 Wrote: The video clip that I saw showed him down on the ground with 2 officers right on top of him, I'd be curious to know how he'd even "go for his gun" from that position, he appeared subdued. Maybe more videos will come to light, because witnesses will be unreliable, but imo the position he was in, it did not look like the need for officers to use deadly force was there.
Great summary!
So far there is 45ish seconds of actual video out for public consumption. It shows the officers tackling and subduing Sterling after ordering him on the ground, yelling he has a gun and not to move (while there are two grown men on top of him) and then shooting him. You can only see the right side of Sterling's body as the left side is obstructed by a vehicle so you dont have a clear picture of what was going on the left side where the 2nd officer was. The right side showed Sterling's arm clearly pinned down by the officer's knee.
I am curious to know what led up to the tacking of Sterling. Knowing this would help explain the type of situation they were in and what type of suspect they were dealing with.
His left hand is pinned. His right arm is free. When people carry without a rig (holster) be it inside the waistband or outside, they traditionally carry in a front pocket of shorts, baggy pants, or jacket. In the pocket on the side of the body that is their strong hand. Police are trained up on this. If he was carrying in his right pocket and he had a free right arm...Moving that arm towards that pocket is not a good idea.
Plus, they were on alert that they were approaching a guy with a gun due to the dispatch call so don't think for a second they were not on edge. These guys want to get home to families after work just like we do.
Like I said, if they broke the law, fry them. If he had a gun, and was breaking the law by even being in possession of one, I can tell you that the cops are going to get the benefit of the doubt.
I believe it was the other way around, right pinned left free
(07-06-2016 01:25 PM)boroeagle2 Wrote: The video clip that I saw showed him down on the ground with 2 officers right on top of him, I'd be curious to know how he'd even "go for his gun" from that position, he appeared subdued. Maybe more videos will come to light, because witnesses will be unreliable, but imo the position he was in, it did not look like the need for officers to use deadly force was there.
Great summary!
So far there is 45ish seconds of actual video out for public consumption. It shows the officers tackling and subduing Sterling after ordering him on the ground, yelling he has a gun and not to move (while there are two grown men on top of him) and then shooting him. You can only see the right side of Sterling's body as the left side is obstructed by a vehicle so you dont have a clear picture of what was going on the left side where the 2nd officer was. The right side showed Sterling's arm clearly pinned down by the officer's knee.
I am curious to know what led up to the tacking of Sterling. Knowing this would help explain the type of situation they were in and what type of suspect they were dealing with.
Why did they takle him? If he pointed the gun they would have just shot him. If they knew he had a gun, they would have asked him to drop it first. Its weird.
They didn't acknowledge the gun until after he was tackled and they were on top of him. Their proclamations made it apparent to me that the gun did not come into play until after they were on top of him, in terms of a threat to their life or safety
They would not ask him to drop it if it was concealed. The last thing police want is for you to unholster or pull out a gun from your pocket to turn it over. They want it kept exactly where it is until you are restrained and are no longer a threat.
Nothing to see here folks. He was a fine outstanding young man.
If he was armed and going for his gun then what other recourse did the cops have? The video doesn't show that part. If he didn't have a gun and it's not true that his hands weren't going to his pockets those cops have a lot of 'splaining to do.
Don't jump to conclusions before the facts are in.
I would agree with you except that someone has already posted that he wasnt going for his gun when they shot him. Thats why i asked if it mattered. Apparently, the consensus is that it does matter.
I posted what the witness said. Unless the witness saw the entirety of the takedown, which is unlikely given the highly obstructed views, he could have reached for the gun and the witness not see that.
What a witness doesnt see isnt relevant or evidence. Its what they see. He saw the police retrieve the gun from Sterlings pocket. He did not see Sterling reach, although the clip I saw showed the possibility of his doing just that.
The details or participants of this one don't matter.
The real issue is our style and culture of policing and whether it is accomplishing its mission.
I don't believe it is.
The obsession with officer safety results in aggressive policing policies, training, and strategies that treats every citizen as an immediate potential threat to an officer's life.
These policies and strategies naturally result in an us/them situation on both sides and the destruction of public support and cooperation and a sense that police are an occupying force.
