(02-23-2016 12:06 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 10:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 10:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 07:52 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 07:44 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Equal opportunity is exactly why laws like affirmative action are necessary.

Affirmative action by definition defies equal opportunity.

Affirmative action was created because minorities weren't being give equal opportunity.

And they still aren't. Because of affirmative action they are being put into situations they aren't as qualified for (like the subject of the OP for example) simply because of the color of their skin and are failing.

But you can't honestly say that affirmative action = equal opportunity because it's the exact opposite.

The law has its flaws but again, it would have never been necessary had minorities been treated equally in the first place.

Two wrongs don't make a right, n matter how good your intentions are. By discriminating for these minorities you are actually doing far more harm to them than if you had left them alone.

(02-22-2016 04:55 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:49 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:23 PM)gsu95 Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 11:23 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  They do face more obstacles, but not government obstacles or obstacles based on race. They face the same obstacles most poor people face, family issues, money, etc.

I'm tired of the laziness associated with claiming its all about being black. I would wager that you find sufficiently similar problems for poor people in general.

Agree. Still, lot of folks of different skin colors use race as an excuse -- for failing, or for claiming someone is inherently too stupid or lazy to succeed.

The poor have a lot of built in obstacles folks from more comfortable backgrounds don't get. Georgia's like Alabama, you see it every day.

I grew up in rural Appalachia - predominately white/predominately poor. Also taught in that same area. I believe those folks face the same sorts of obstacles you imply that blacks do, chief among those would be that parents don't value education the same as more affluent people do.

There are many variables that go into someone getting a college degree, but I'd bank on parents valuing education as the most important.

I believe it is our absolute duty to provide equal opportunity, but find no duty to try and "level the playing field" in an attempt to make up for parental indifference. We will never succeed in legislating equal outcomes and frankly it isn't the governments job to assure equal outcomes. Attempting equal outcomes is a fools errand and waste of money.

So long as the opportunity is a fair as is possible, the chips will fall as they may.

Dismissing race as a factor in this case is wrongheaded. Consider the fact that there would be no need to "level the playing-field" if everyone was treated equally in this country from the get go.

True equality is impossible to reach. There will always be some factor that prevents it.

(02-22-2016 04:55 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:49 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:23 PM)gsu95 Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 11:23 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  They do face more obstacles, but not government obstacles or obstacles based on race. They face the same obstacles most poor people face, family issues, money, etc.

I'm tired of the laziness associated with claiming its all about being black. I would wager that you find sufficiently similar problems for poor people in general.

Agree. Still, lot of folks of different skin colors use race as an excuse -- for failing, or for claiming someone is inherently too stupid or lazy to succeed.

The poor have a lot of built in obstacles folks from more comfortable backgrounds don't get. Georgia's like Alabama, you see it every day.

I grew up in rural Appalachia - predominately white/predominately poor. Also taught in that same area. I believe those folks face the same sorts of obstacles you imply that blacks do, chief among those would be that parents don't value education the same as more affluent people do.

There are many variables that go into someone getting a college degree, but I'd bank on parents valuing education as the most important.

I believe it is our absolute duty to provide equal opportunity, but find no duty to try and "level the playing field" in an attempt to make up for parental indifference. We will never succeed in legislating equal outcomes and frankly it isn't the governments job to assure equal outcomes. Attempting equal outcomes is a fools errand and waste of money.

So long as the opportunity is a fair as is possible, the chips will fall as they may.

Dismissing race as a factor in this case is wrongheaded. Consider the fact that there would be no need to "level the playing-field" if everyone was treated equally in this country from the get go.

Alright then what about the group of Black kids( or any Race really) that always hang out together in the back of the classroom. Always talking and disrupting when the teacher is trying to explain things as per Her job. Those clowns are usually more worried about anything but learning. Later on They get to college and find out They were just pushed through to the next grade to leave Them with someone else. Now when They really need correct answers on exams They haven't a clue about the subject because they didn't learn earlier in School. Now They drop out and try to find a job. This happens quite often these days and anyone saying it's not true is just fooling themselves.

(02-23-2016 02:49 AM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:55 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:49 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:23 PM)gsu95 Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 11:23 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  They do face more obstacles, but not government obstacles or obstacles based on race. They face the same obstacles most poor people face, family issues, money, etc.

I'm tired of the laziness associated with claiming its all about being black. I would wager that you find sufficiently similar problems for poor people in general.

Agree. Still, lot of folks of different skin colors use race as an excuse -- for failing, or for claiming someone is inherently too stupid or lazy to succeed.

The poor have a lot of built in obstacles folks from more comfortable backgrounds don't get. Georgia's like Alabama, you see it every day.

I grew up in rural Appalachia - predominately white/predominately poor. Also taught in that same area. I believe those folks face the same sorts of obstacles you imply that blacks do, chief among those would be that parents don't value education the same as more affluent people do.

There are many variables that go into someone getting a college degree, but I'd bank on parents valuing education as the most important.

I believe it is our absolute duty to provide equal opportunity, but find no duty to try and "level the playing field" in an attempt to make up for parental indifference. We will never succeed in legislating equal outcomes and frankly it isn't the governments job to assure equal outcomes. Attempting equal outcomes is a fools errand and waste of money.

So long as the opportunity is a fair as is possible, the chips will fall as they may.

Dismissing race as a factor in this case is wrongheaded. Consider the fact that there would be no need to "level the playing-field" if everyone was treated equally in this country from the get go.

True equality is impossible to reach. There will always be some factor that prevents it.

no, what happens is that the alleged underclass simply becomes more and more hysterical about ever diminishing levels of inequality, and those flames are fanned by the reformers and enforcers of equality, who are certainly not going to reform themselves out of a job that provides a very comfortable lifestyle.

(02-22-2016 11:08 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 09:22 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  I read the story in the Buffalo News about blacks not graduating from colleges at the same rate as whites. After a careful read, I concluded that the story was informative but basically nothing more gasoline for the fire. Is this the way to start a dialogue when the chasm between whites and blacks hasn't been wider in 60 years.


There are two logical and alternative conclusions that can be reached from the story. One, academia is making it harder for blacks to succeed than they do for whites. Or two, blacks aren't capable of doing the necessary work. Maybe they need safe spaces?

Well have at it posters. I'm sure this should gender some interesting posts. I'll have to check back later as I'm on my way to the airport for a trip to Florida. Damn I love my white privilege.

Link

Blacks have to overcome more obstacles than whites do in order to graduate from college.

Yes. Like Obama's kids. They have to overcome a narcissistic dad who never takes responsibility for anything.

(02-23-2016 10:39 AM)EagleX Wrote:  

(02-23-2016 02:49 AM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:55 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:49 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:23 PM)gsu95 Wrote:  Agree. Still, lot of folks of different skin colors use race as an excuse -- for failing, or for claiming someone is inherently too stupid or lazy to succeed.

The poor have a lot of built in obstacles folks from more comfortable backgrounds don't get. Georgia's like Alabama, you see it every day.

I grew up in rural Appalachia - predominately white/predominately poor. Also taught in that same area. I believe those folks face the same sorts of obstacles you imply that blacks do, chief among those would be that parents don't value education the same as more affluent people do.

There are many variables that go into someone getting a college degree, but I'd bank on parents valuing education as the most important.

I believe it is our absolute duty to provide equal opportunity, but find no duty to try and "level the playing field" in an attempt to make up for parental indifference. We will never succeed in legislating equal outcomes and frankly it isn't the governments job to assure equal outcomes. Attempting equal outcomes is a fools errand and waste of money.

So long as the opportunity is a fair as is possible, the chips will fall as they may.

Dismissing race as a factor in this case is wrongheaded. Consider the fact that there would be no need to "level the playing-field" if everyone was treated equally in this country from the get go.

True equality is impossible to reach. There will always be some factor that prevents it.

no, what happens is that the alleged underclass simply becomes more and more hysterical about ever diminishing levels of inequality, and those flames are fanned by the reformers and enforcers of equality, who are certainly not going to reform themselves out of a job that provides a very comfortable lifestyle.

"Alleged underclass?"

(02-22-2016 01:40 PM)pharaoh0 Wrote:  This is a much more complicated issue than people just seeing the issue through an ideological set of glasses. There is a lot of history that pertains to Blacks and education.

From my experience, I find that Blacks face more obstacles to graduate college than Whites or even other minorities. However, I also have found that the liberals that constantly argue this point, do very little to actually address the underlying reasons regarding why this is the case.

IMO, one of the saddest things about this is that one side exaggerates and amplifies parts of this issue for political gain and the other side simply ignores that any issue exists.

Such as?

(02-23-2016 06:04 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:55 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:49 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:23 PM)gsu95 Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 11:23 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  They do face more obstacles, but not government obstacles or obstacles based on race. They face the same obstacles most poor people face, family issues, money, etc.

I'm tired of the laziness associated with claiming its all about being black. I would wager that you find sufficiently similar problems for poor people in general.

Agree. Still, lot of folks of different skin colors use race as an excuse -- for failing, or for claiming someone is inherently too stupid or lazy to succeed.

The poor have a lot of built in obstacles folks from more comfortable backgrounds don't get. Georgia's like Alabama, you see it every day.

I grew up in rural Appalachia - predominately white/predominately poor. Also taught in that same area. I believe those folks face the same sorts of obstacles you imply that blacks do, chief among those would be that parents don't value education the same as more affluent people do.

There are many variables that go into someone getting a college degree, but I'd bank on parents valuing education as the most important.

I believe it is our absolute duty to provide equal opportunity, but find no duty to try and "level the playing field" in an attempt to make up for parental indifference. We will never succeed in legislating equal outcomes and frankly it isn't the governments job to assure equal outcomes. Attempting equal outcomes is a fools errand and waste of money.

So long as the opportunity is a fair as is possible, the chips will fall as they may.

Dismissing race as a factor in this case is wrongheaded. Consider the fact that there would be no need to "level the playing-field" if everyone was treated equally in this country from the get go.

Alright then what about the group of Black kids( or any Race really) that always hang out together in the back of the classroom. Always talking and disrupting when the teacher is trying to explain things as per Her job. Those clowns are usually more worried about anything but learning. Later on They get to college and find out They were just pushed through to the next grade to leave Them with someone else. Now when They really need correct answers on exams They haven't a clue about the subject because they didn't learn earlier in School. Now They drop out and try to find a job. This happens quite often these days and anyone saying it's not true is just fooling themselves.

It happens, but to say it's the sole reason for a lack of opportunity is just as wrong as saying all those who are poor got that way because they didn't have opportunity.

(02-22-2016 04:55 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:49 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:23 PM)gsu95 Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 11:23 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  They do face more obstacles, but not government obstacles or obstacles based on race. They face the same obstacles most poor people face, family issues, money, etc.

I'm tired of the laziness associated with claiming its all about being black. I would wager that you find sufficiently similar problems for poor people in general.

Agree. Still, lot of folks of different skin colors use race as an excuse -- for failing, or for claiming someone is inherently too stupid or lazy to succeed.

The poor have a lot of built in obstacles folks from more comfortable backgrounds don't get. Georgia's like Alabama, you see it every day.

I grew up in rural Appalachia - predominately white/predominately poor. Also taught in that same area. I believe those folks face the same sorts of obstacles you imply that blacks do, chief among those would be that parents don't value education the same as more affluent people do.

There are many variables that go into someone getting a college degree, but I'd bank on parents valuing education as the most important.

I believe it is our absolute duty to provide equal opportunity, but find no duty to try and "level the playing field" in an attempt to make up for parental indifference. We will never succeed in legislating equal outcomes and frankly it isn't the governments job to assure equal outcomes. Attempting equal outcomes is a fools errand and waste of money.

So long as the opportunity is a fair as is possible, the chips will fall as they may.

Dismissing race as a factor in this case is wrongheaded. Consider the fact that there would be no need to "level the playing-field" if everyone was treated equally in this country from the get go.

emphasizing race as the major factor is even more wrongheaded. recognizing that fatherless, single parent families are the major contributor to a child being doomed to life of poverty would go a long way towards the "underprivileged" leveling their own playing field.

(02-22-2016 10:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 07:52 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 07:44 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:59 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:55 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Dismissing race as a factor in this case is wrongheaded. Consider the fact that there would be no need to "level the playing-field" if everyone was treated equally in this country from the get go.

I'm not talking leveling the playing field by color at all - it was from the "The poor have a lot of built in obstacles" part of it. Being poor isn't a color.

Equal opportunity Fit - not equal outcomes.

Equal opportunity is exactly why laws like affirmative action are necessary.

Affirmative action by definition defies equal opportunity.

Affirmative action was created because minorities weren't being give equal opportunity.

Affirmative Action has been around for 50 years now. That means that anyone 50 years old or younger - at least 2 complete generations - has lived under Affirmative Action - discrimination for race, creed, gender has been illegal for over 50 years.

I am all for assuring equality of opportunity - compete and may the best person win.

There isn't a kid in school today that has lived anywhere close to the discrimination you talk about.

(02-23-2016 12:40 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(02-23-2016 12:06 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 10:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 10:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 07:52 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Affirmative action by definition defies equal opportunity.

Affirmative action was created because minorities weren't being give equal opportunity.

And they still aren't. Because of affirmative action they are being put into situations they aren't as qualified for (like the subject of the OP for example) simply because of the color of their skin and are failing.

But you can't honestly say that affirmative action = equal opportunity because it's the exact opposite.

The law has its flaws but again, it would have never been necessary had minorities been treated equally in the first place.

Two wrongs don't make a right, n matter how good your intentions are. By discriminating for these minorities you are actually doing far more harm to them than if you had left them alone.

Perhaps but something had to be done. Minorities were being denied jobs and that was the first wrong. If we had done nothing, we would be decades behind the progress we have made. While we are now going through a period of reverse racism, we will have overcome racism far faster with the law than without it.

(02-23-2016 11:05 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-23-2016 12:40 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(02-23-2016 12:06 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 10:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 10:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Affirmative action was created because minorities weren't being give equal opportunity.

And they still aren't. Because of affirmative action they are being put into situations they aren't as qualified for (like the subject of the OP for example) simply because of the color of their skin and are failing.

But you can't honestly say that affirmative action = equal opportunity because it's the exact opposite.

The law has its flaws but again, it would have never been necessary had minorities been treated equally in the first place.

Two wrongs don't make a right, n matter how good your intentions are. By discriminating for these minorities you are actually doing far more harm to them than if you had left them alone.

Perhaps but something had to be done. Minorities were being denied jobs and that was the first wrong. If we had done nothing, we would be decades behind the progress we have made. While we are now going through a period of reverse racism, we will have overcome racism far faster with the law than without it.

Minorities actually had lower unemployment rates than whites in the decades proceeding the Civil Rights Movement and Affirmative Action.

The biggest factors of high black unemployment are poor education and the minimum wage requirement. If there were no minimum wage requirement employers would hire more people. Workers could then earn a skill/trade that could result in better employment opportunities.

in other news, the sky is blue.

(02-23-2016 11:24 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(02-23-2016 11:05 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-23-2016 12:40 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(02-23-2016 12:06 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 10:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  And they still aren't. Because of affirmative action they are being put into situations they aren't as qualified for (like the subject of the OP for example) simply because of the color of their skin and are failing.

But you can't honestly say that affirmative action = equal opportunity because it's the exact opposite.

The law has its flaws but again, it would have never been necessary had minorities been treated equally in the first place.

Two wrongs don't make a right, n matter how good your intentions are. By discriminating for these minorities you are actually doing far more harm to them than if you had left them alone.

Perhaps but something had to be done. Minorities were being denied jobs and that was the first wrong. If we had done nothing, we would be decades behind the progress we have made. While we are now going through a period of reverse racism, we will have overcome racism far faster with the law than without it.

Minorities actually had lower unemployment rates than whites in the decades proceeding the Civil Rights Movement and Affirmative Action.

The biggest factors of high black unemployment are poor education and the minimum wage requirement. If there were no minimum wage requirement employers would hire more people. Workers could then earn a skill/trade that could result in better employment opportunities.

That may have been the case with onion picking jobs because minorities didn't have to compete for jobs that required manual labor and only paid minimum wage.

Affirmative action was created to help qualified minorities get jobs that they were otherwise being passed up for simply because they were black or brown.

Quote:Affirmative action was created to help qualified minorities get jobs that they were otherwise being passed up for simply because they were black or brown.

Completely disagree with this statement, Fit.

It might have been the intention of some people who passed it, but overall? There was no "qualified" nomenclature on any of the legislation, at least not to my knowledge.

(02-23-2016 12:34 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

Quote:Affirmative action was created to help qualified minorities get jobs that they were otherwise being passed up for simply because they were black or brown.

Completely disagree with this statement, Fit.

It might have been the intention of some people who passed it, but overall? There was no "qualified" nomenclature on any of the legislation, at least not to my knowledge.

For federal contractors and subcontractors, affirmative action must be taken by covered employers to recruit and advance qualified minorities, women, persons with disabilities, and covered veterans. Affirmative actions include training programs, outreach efforts, and other positive steps. These procedures should be incorporated into the company’s written personnel policies. Employers with written affirmative action programs must implement them, keep them on file and update them annually.

http://www.dol.gov/general/topic/hiring/affirmativeact

(02-22-2016 10:41 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 10:37 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 10:35 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 09:22 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  I read the story in the Buffalo News about blacks not graduating from colleges at the same rate as whites. After a careful read, I concluded that the story was informative but basically nothing more gasoline for the fire. Is this the way to start a dialogue when the chasm between whites and blacks hasn't been wider in 60 years.


There are two logical and alternative conclusions that can be reached from the story. One, academia is making it harder for blacks to succeed than they do for whites. Or two, blacks aren't capable of doing the necessary work. Maybe they need safe spaces?

Well have at it posters. I'm sure this should gender some interesting posts. I'll have to check back later as I'm on my way to the airport for a trip to Florida. Damn I love my white privilege.

Link

So much condescension in this post as it really has more to do with your personal issues rather than solving problems, starting a discussion or actually being productive.

like the context of the article that rambles all over the place?

I'm trying to figure out the point of this thread other than to take some drive
by shots at liberals.

Well bless your heart for giving it a try.