This is a much more complicated issue than people just seeing the issue through an ideological set of glasses. There is a lot of history that pertains to Blacks and education.

From my experience, I find that Blacks face more obstacles to graduate college than Whites or even other minorities. However, I also have found that the liberals that constantly argue this point, do very little to actually address the underlying reasons regarding why this is the case.

IMO, one of the saddest things about this is that one side exaggerates and amplifies parts of this issue for political gain and the other side simply ignores that any issue exists.

(02-22-2016 01:31 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 01:24 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Well, in fairness I've not be a total dick to you but if you want to think I was being sarcastic then so be it.

Sorry if I misunderstood you . You have been one of the most fair people to me on this forum.

You have to understand however that I am one of the few in this forum whose profession is personally attacked on a daily basis.

Well, my fiancé is a teacher so I get the whole thing for the most part.

You can't blame teachers when you give them ****** kids.

A moron here in Alabama is trying to tie teacher pay to student success and parent reviews. That's total bull**** considering that most of the kids and their parents don't give a ****.

(02-22-2016 01:42 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 01:31 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 01:24 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Well, in fairness I've not be a total dick to you but if you want to think I was being sarcastic then so be it.

Sorry if I misunderstood you . You have been one of the most fair people to me on this forum.

You have to understand however that I am one of the few in this forum whose profession is personally attacked on a daily basis.

Well, my fiancé is a teacher so I get the whole thing for the most part.

You can't blame teachers when you give them ****** kids.

A moron here in Alabama is trying to tie teacher pay to student success and parent reviews. That's total bull**** considering that most of the kids and their parents don't give a ****.

Agreed.

(02-22-2016 01:40 PM)pharaoh0 Wrote:  This is a much more complicated issue than people just seeing the issue through an ideological set of glasses. There is a lot of history that pertains to Blacks and education.

From my experience, I find that Blacks face more obstacles to graduate college than Whites or even other minorities. However, I also have found that the liberals that constantly argue this point, do very little to actually address the underlying reasons regarding why this is the case.

IMO, one of the saddest things about this is that one side exaggerates and amplifies parts of this issue for political gain and the other side simply ignores that any issue exists.

couldn't agree more....it's goes much deeper into the well....

(02-22-2016 11:13 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 11:08 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 09:22 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  I read the story in the Buffalo News about blacks not graduating from colleges at the same rate as whites. After a careful read, I concluded that the story was informative but basically nothing more gasoline for the fire. Is this the way to start a dialogue when the chasm between whites and blacks hasn't been wider in 60 years.


There are two logical and alternative conclusions that can be reached from the story. One, academia is making it harder for blacks to succeed than they do for whites. Or two, blacks aren't capable of doing the necessary work. Maybe they need safe spaces?

Well have at it posters. I'm sure this should gender some interesting posts. I'll have to check back later as I'm on my way to the airport for a trip to Florida. Damn I love my white privilege.

Link

Blacks have to overcome more obstacles than whites do in order to graduate from college.

Name those obstacles, please.

I guess your privilege is showing. Generally speaking they are lower in every economic marker plus do not have a history of education in the immediate family.

(02-22-2016 11:30 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 11:08 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 09:22 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  I read the story in the Buffalo News about blacks not graduating from colleges at the same rate as whites. After a careful read, I concluded that the story was informative but basically nothing more gasoline for the fire. Is this the way to start a dialogue when the chasm between whites and blacks hasn't been wider in 60 years.


There are two logical and alternative conclusions that can be reached from the story. One, academia is making it harder for blacks to succeed than they do for whites. Or two, blacks aren't capable of doing the necessary work. Maybe they need safe spaces?

Well have at it posters. I'm sure this should gender some interesting posts. I'll have to check back later as I'm on my way to the airport for a trip to Florida. Damn I love my white privilege.

Link

Blacks have to overcome more obstacles than whites do in order to graduate from college.

Gee Fit, Most Blacks in America have had Far more opportunities being born in America to succeed than Folks from Mexico have, yet many Mexican citizens with serious hurdles before Them have gone much farther in America than many Black folks have. Great work ethic and dedication have it's rewards. There are Millions of Black Folks in America that have had great success just like Successful Whites have. You have to be the one to make success Your goal. No One gives it to You based on Your Skin color.

There are always unique situations but those who come to this country usually have an education or come from a family with an education regardless of income status. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

(02-22-2016 01:06 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 01:03 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 12:06 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 12:02 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 11:55 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Poor whites have all of the same problems except one. They aren't black.

Which means the schools are not setting a lower academic bar, hiring administrators to ensure their success, adding special tutoring programs, or considering makings "safe spaces" for them.

It also means they aren't being denied services, being passed up for jobs etc. etc.

Have you ever been charged with hiring anyone?

As a matter of fact I have in more than one capacity. Before I became a teacher, I was an assistant supervisor in a auto parts manufacturing plant. I got the opportunity to hire lots of people.

Also, as a teacher and department chair, I sit in on a lot of teacher hiring interviews.

And on what panel did you not hear that there was a desire to improve diversity? Each and every time I've been the guy doing the choosing my mandate from above has been *all else being equal try to hire something other than a white guy*

(02-22-2016 03:01 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 01:06 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 01:03 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 12:06 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 12:02 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  Which means the schools are not setting a lower academic bar, hiring administrators to ensure their success, adding special tutoring programs, or considering makings "safe spaces" for them.

It also means they aren't being denied services, being passed up for jobs etc. etc.

Have you ever been charged with hiring anyone?

As a matter of fact I have in more than one capacity. Before I became a teacher, I was an assistant supervisor in a auto parts manufacturing plant. I got the opportunity to hire lots of people.

Also, as a teacher and department chair, I sit in on a lot of teacher hiring interviews.

And on what panel did you not hear that there was a desire to improve diversity? Each and every time I've been the guy doing the choosing my mandate from above has been *all else being equal try to hire something other than a white guy*

Actually, On no panel did I ever sit on where someone suggested that we consider diversity.

(02-22-2016 03:45 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 03:01 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 01:06 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 01:03 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 12:06 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  It also means they aren't being denied services, being passed up for jobs etc. etc.

Have you ever been charged with hiring anyone?

As a matter of fact I have in more than one capacity. Before I became a teacher, I was an assistant supervisor in a auto parts manufacturing plant. I got the opportunity to hire lots of people.

Also, as a teacher and department chair, I sit in on a lot of teacher hiring interviews.

And on what panel did you not hear that there was a desire to improve diversity? Each and every time I've been the guy doing the choosing my mandate from above has been *all else being equal try to hire something other than a white guy*

Actually, On no panel did I ever sit on where someone suggested that we consider diversity.

b/c if documented, that would be a legal cf, wouldn't it????.....but in your head....that's another story....derp

(02-22-2016 03:45 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 03:01 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 01:06 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 01:03 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 12:06 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  It also means they aren't being denied services, being passed up for jobs etc. etc.

Have you ever been charged with hiring anyone?

As a matter of fact I have in more than one capacity. Before I became a teacher, I was an assistant supervisor in a auto parts manufacturing plant. I got the opportunity to hire lots of people.

Also, as a teacher and department chair, I sit in on a lot of teacher hiring interviews.

And on what panel did you not hear that there was a desire to improve diversity? Each and every time I've been the guy doing the choosing my mandate from above has been *all else being equal try to hire something other than a white guy*

Actually, On no panel did I ever sit on where someone suggested that we consider diversity.

And earlier

Also, as a teacher and department chair, I sit in on a lot of teacher hiring interviews.

Seems to me, then, that the problem in hiring is related to public education. Because I have worked some hiring capacity in telecommunications, finance, health care, retail, and corporate services. In all those roles diversity was very high up the list whenever I got a stack of resumes to look at.

(02-22-2016 11:23 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  They do face more obstacles, but not government obstacles or obstacles based on race. They face the same obstacles most poor people face, family issues, money, etc.

I'm tired of the laziness associated with claiming its all about being black. I would wager that you find sufficiently similar problems for poor people in general.

Agree. Still, lot of folks of different skin colors use race as an excuse -- for failing, or for claiming someone is inherently too stupid or lazy to succeed.

The poor have a lot of built in obstacles folks from more comfortable backgrounds don't get. Georgia's like Alabama, you see it every day.

Somehow this has got to be the fault of white people......

(02-22-2016 04:23 PM)gsu95 Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 11:23 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  They do face more obstacles, but not government obstacles or obstacles based on race. They face the same obstacles most poor people face, family issues, money, etc.

I'm tired of the laziness associated with claiming its all about being black. I would wager that you find sufficiently similar problems for poor people in general.

Agree. Still, lot of folks of different skin colors use race as an excuse -- for failing, or for claiming someone is inherently too stupid or lazy to succeed.

The poor have a lot of built in obstacles folks from more comfortable backgrounds don't get. Georgia's like Alabama, you see it every day.

I grew up in rural Appalachia - predominately white/predominately poor. Also taught in that same area. I believe those folks face the same sorts of obstacles you imply that blacks do, chief among those would be that parents don't value education the same as more affluent people do.

There are many variables that go into someone getting a college degree, but I'd bank on parents valuing education as the most important.

I believe it is our absolute duty to provide equal opportunity, but find no duty to try and "level the playing field" in an attempt to make up for parental indifference. We will never succeed in legislating equal outcomes and frankly it isn't the governments job to assure equal outcomes. Attempting equal outcomes is a fools errand and waste of money.

So long as the opportunity is a fair as is possible, the chips will fall as they may.

(02-22-2016 04:49 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:23 PM)gsu95 Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 11:23 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  They do face more obstacles, but not government obstacles or obstacles based on race. They face the same obstacles most poor people face, family issues, money, etc.

I'm tired of the laziness associated with claiming its all about being black. I would wager that you find sufficiently similar problems for poor people in general.

Agree. Still, lot of folks of different skin colors use race as an excuse -- for failing, or for claiming someone is inherently too stupid or lazy to succeed.

The poor have a lot of built in obstacles folks from more comfortable backgrounds don't get. Georgia's like Alabama, you see it every day.

I grew up in rural Appalachia - predominately white/predominately poor. Also taught in that same area. I believe those folks face the same sorts of obstacles you imply that blacks do, chief among those would be that parents don't value education the same as more affluent people do.

There are many variables that go into someone getting a college degree, but I'd bank on parents valuing education as the most important.

I believe it is our absolute duty to provide equal opportunity, but find no duty to try and "level the playing field" in an attempt to make up for parental indifference. We will never succeed in legislating equal outcomes and frankly it isn't the governments job to assure equal outcomes. Attempting equal outcomes is a fools errand and waste of money.

So long as the opportunity is a fair as is possible, the chips will fall as they may.

Dismissing race as a factor in this case is wrongheaded. Consider the fact that there would be no need to "level the playing-field" if everyone was treated equally in this country from the get go.

(02-22-2016 04:55 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:49 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:23 PM)gsu95 Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 11:23 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  They do face more obstacles, but not government obstacles or obstacles based on race. They face the same obstacles most poor people face, family issues, money, etc.

I'm tired of the laziness associated with claiming its all about being black. I would wager that you find sufficiently similar problems for poor people in general.

Agree. Still, lot of folks of different skin colors use race as an excuse -- for failing, or for claiming someone is inherently too stupid or lazy to succeed.

The poor have a lot of built in obstacles folks from more comfortable backgrounds don't get. Georgia's like Alabama, you see it every day.

I grew up in rural Appalachia - predominately white/predominately poor. Also taught in that same area. I believe those folks face the same sorts of obstacles you imply that blacks do, chief among those would be that parents don't value education the same as more affluent people do.

There are many variables that go into someone getting a college degree, but I'd bank on parents valuing education as the most important.

I believe it is our absolute duty to provide equal opportunity, but find no duty to try and "level the playing field" in an attempt to make up for parental indifference. We will never succeed in legislating equal outcomes and frankly it isn't the governments job to assure equal outcomes. Attempting equal outcomes is a fools errand and waste of money.

So long as the opportunity is a fair as is possible, the chips will fall as they may.

Dismissing race as a factor in this case is wrongheaded. Consider the fact that there would be no need to "level the playing-field" if everyone was treated equally in this country from the get go.

I'm not talking leveling the playing field by color at all - it was from the "The poor have a lot of built in obstacles" part of it. Being poor isn't a color.

Equal opportunity Fit - not equal outcomes.

(02-22-2016 04:59 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:55 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:49 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:23 PM)gsu95 Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 11:23 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  They do face more obstacles, but not government obstacles or obstacles based on race. They face the same obstacles most poor people face, family issues, money, etc.

I'm tired of the laziness associated with claiming its all about being black. I would wager that you find sufficiently similar problems for poor people in general.

Agree. Still, lot of folks of different skin colors use race as an excuse -- for failing, or for claiming someone is inherently too stupid or lazy to succeed.

The poor have a lot of built in obstacles folks from more comfortable backgrounds don't get. Georgia's like Alabama, you see it every day.

I grew up in rural Appalachia - predominately white/predominately poor. Also taught in that same area. I believe those folks face the same sorts of obstacles you imply that blacks do, chief among those would be that parents don't value education the same as more affluent people do.

There are many variables that go into someone getting a college degree, but I'd bank on parents valuing education as the most important.

I believe it is our absolute duty to provide equal opportunity, but find no duty to try and "level the playing field" in an attempt to make up for parental indifference. We will never succeed in legislating equal outcomes and frankly it isn't the governments job to assure equal outcomes. Attempting equal outcomes is a fools errand and waste of money.

So long as the opportunity is a fair as is possible, the chips will fall as they may.

Dismissing race as a factor in this case is wrongheaded. Consider the fact that there would be no need to "level the playing-field" if everyone was treated equally in this country from the get go.

I'm not talking leveling the playing field by color at all - it was from the "The poor have a lot of built in obstacles" part of it. Being poor isn't a color.

Equal opportunity Fit - not equal outcomes.

Equal opportunity is exactly why laws like affirmative action are necessary.

(02-22-2016 07:44 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:59 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:55 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:49 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:23 PM)gsu95 Wrote:  Agree. Still, lot of folks of different skin colors use race as an excuse -- for failing, or for claiming someone is inherently too stupid or lazy to succeed.

The poor have a lot of built in obstacles folks from more comfortable backgrounds don't get. Georgia's like Alabama, you see it every day.

I grew up in rural Appalachia - predominately white/predominately poor. Also taught in that same area. I believe those folks face the same sorts of obstacles you imply that blacks do, chief among those would be that parents don't value education the same as more affluent people do.

There are many variables that go into someone getting a college degree, but I'd bank on parents valuing education as the most important.

I believe it is our absolute duty to provide equal opportunity, but find no duty to try and "level the playing field" in an attempt to make up for parental indifference. We will never succeed in legislating equal outcomes and frankly it isn't the governments job to assure equal outcomes. Attempting equal outcomes is a fools errand and waste of money.

So long as the opportunity is a fair as is possible, the chips will fall as they may.

Dismissing race as a factor in this case is wrongheaded. Consider the fact that there would be no need to "level the playing-field" if everyone was treated equally in this country from the get go.

I'm not talking leveling the playing field by color at all - it was from the "The poor have a lot of built in obstacles" part of it. Being poor isn't a color.

Equal opportunity Fit - not equal outcomes.

Equal opportunity is exactly why laws like affirmative action are necessary.

Affirmative action by definition defies equal opportunity.

(02-22-2016 07:52 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 07:44 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:59 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:55 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:49 PM)Crebman Wrote:  I grew up in rural Appalachia - predominately white/predominately poor. Also taught in that same area. I believe those folks face the same sorts of obstacles you imply that blacks do, chief among those would be that parents don't value education the same as more affluent people do.

There are many variables that go into someone getting a college degree, but I'd bank on parents valuing education as the most important.

I believe it is our absolute duty to provide equal opportunity, but find no duty to try and "level the playing field" in an attempt to make up for parental indifference. We will never succeed in legislating equal outcomes and frankly it isn't the governments job to assure equal outcomes. Attempting equal outcomes is a fools errand and waste of money.

So long as the opportunity is a fair as is possible, the chips will fall as they may.

Dismissing race as a factor in this case is wrongheaded. Consider the fact that there would be no need to "level the playing-field" if everyone was treated equally in this country from the get go.

I'm not talking leveling the playing field by color at all - it was from the "The poor have a lot of built in obstacles" part of it. Being poor isn't a color.

Equal opportunity Fit - not equal outcomes.

Equal opportunity is exactly why laws like affirmative action are necessary.

Affirmative action by definition defies equal opportunity.

Affirmative action was created because minorities weren't being give equal opportunity.

(02-22-2016 10:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 07:52 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 07:44 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:59 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:55 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Dismissing race as a factor in this case is wrongheaded. Consider the fact that there would be no need to "level the playing-field" if everyone was treated equally in this country from the get go.

I'm not talking leveling the playing field by color at all - it was from the "The poor have a lot of built in obstacles" part of it. Being poor isn't a color.

Equal opportunity Fit - not equal outcomes.

Equal opportunity is exactly why laws like affirmative action are necessary.

Affirmative action by definition defies equal opportunity.

Affirmative action was created because minorities weren't being give equal opportunity.

And they still aren't. Because of affirmative action they are being put into situations they aren't as qualified for (like the subject of the OP for example) simply because of the color of their skin and are failing.

But you can't honestly say that affirmative action = equal opportunity because it's the exact opposite.

(02-22-2016 10:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 10:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 07:52 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 07:44 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-22-2016 04:59 PM)Crebman Wrote:  I'm not talking leveling the playing field by color at all - it was from the "The poor have a lot of built in obstacles" part of it. Being poor isn't a color.

Equal opportunity Fit - not equal outcomes.

Equal opportunity is exactly why laws like affirmative action are necessary.

Affirmative action by definition defies equal opportunity.

Affirmative action was created because minorities weren't being give equal opportunity.

And they still aren't. Because of affirmative action they are being put into situations they aren't as qualified for (like the subject of the OP for example) simply because of the color of their skin and are failing.

But you can't honestly say that affirmative action = equal opportunity because it's the exact opposite.

The law has its flaws but again, it would have never been necessary had minorities been treated equally in the first place.