(12-02-2015 09:47 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  We risk going the SMU route (but the jury is still out on Morris), but this year has altered my opinion enough that I believe it is worth the risk to try to go UH's route, knowing that we could very well be SMU instead.

SMU was 1-11 the year before. They didn't have a drop off with Morris, and their fans are more optimistic about next year than ours.

Just saying something is so doesn't make it so. The ABB crown repeatedly says he can't ____________ or won't______________ but I see only opinions presented as facts.

He doesn't coach players up is a common one, but I see lots of players playing above their HS press clippings. Bob is a good example, but think of al the walk ons who have played key roles, and all the players in the NFL who were not marked as future NFLers when they signed with Rice.

Lots of others, but let's deal with one at a time.

(12-02-2015 10:08 AM)WIowl Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 09:47 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  We risk going the SMU route (but the jury is still out on Morris), but this year has altered my opinion enough that I believe it is worth the risk to try to go UH's route, knowing that we could very well be SMU instead.

SMU was 1-11 the year before. They didn't have a drop off with Morris, and their fans are more optimistic about next year than ours.

That and 0-11 or 5-7, no one gives a **** about Rice football. We have nowhere left to fall. Heck, CUSA was ranked worse than the Sunbelt

(12-02-2015 10:00 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 09:51 AM)cr11owl Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 09:43 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 08:36 AM)cr11owl Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 07:49 AM)Antarius Wrote:  Look at our EOY Sagarin ratings. Or Massey. Average them out or heck, take them all

That's like saying if the NY Giants were bottom half of the NFL(which right now they are) they would have no shot at the playoffs. Level of Competition matters a lot. There is an Indian phrase that states 'andho mein kana raja' which basically translates to among the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Forgive me for not being impressed by an all time losing record mainly against Creampuff-USA. That's how low the bar is for a bowl streak now

Apparently that's ok with the university as proven by their $$$ commitment. So, as I said previously unless the university steps up it's up to the boosters who are angry to put their $ where their mouth is. Until we commit to making the SEC schools and big 12 schools our peers (again) then we are just whining about a coach who performs above average with his resources. That's means funding AND recruiting abilities, because let's be serious we never out-recruit the rest of CUSA. Just take a look at the average recruiting class rankings. We take less than everyone else (because our guys stay 4 years) and we usually have ower ranked players with a few exceptions.

As a university we definitely have the resources to be back in the "relevant" scene that has been described on here before but its apparent we haven't even considered making a commitment until very recently. Even now we are still way behind other schools who are trying to make a name for themselves in athletics.

While it may or may not be true that in football our recruiting classes ranked slightly below the CUSA median, what you're failing to recognize is that a quality head coach and coaching staff can get more out of their players (though game prep, player development, motivation, creative game calling) than their original HS rankings, and can elevate the on-field performance. This is particularly true in football. Bailiff has failed to do this, which is why with one lone exception during his tenure we have only beaten team we out-talent, and have been uncompetitive with virtually everyone else.

And while budget is certainly a key factor, I refuse to believe that we cannot find a better on-field coach that DB , who will get more out of his players, at the current salary budget. There are plenty of up and coming high school coaches and current FBS coordinators who would jump as the salary that Bailiff is currently getting. BTW, DB's salary is well above several CUSA and AAC coaches who have achieved greater success than him.

So let me get this straight, you acknowledge that our recruiting might be below the median and you say our coaches don't coach up. How do you explain the 3 bowl seasons and the CUSA championship?

I said "might" be...and I've given my explanation repeatedly-- we've feasted on beating teams ranked in the bottom quartile of the FBS division, with the vast majority in the bottom quintile (including 2 of our 4 OOC games each year).

Just for reference, I looked at some recruiting rankings (something I never really do). From 2010-2013, the years when we were recruiting a majority of our players from the 2012-2015 teams, we ranked 7, 8, 5, and 7 in conference, per 24/7 sports.

On a side note, Marshall always seemed to be near the top (and ODU was actually ranked #2 in 2014).

So we generally seem to be recruiting around the median of the conference and finished in the middle of the pack in 2012, won conference in 2013, near the top in 2014, and near the bottom in 2015.

(12-02-2015 10:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Just saying something is so doesn't make it so. The ABB crown repeatedly says he can't ____________ or won't______________ but I see only opinions presented as facts.

He doesn't coach players up is a common one, but I see lots of players playing above their HS press clippings. Bob is a good example, but think of al the walk ons who have played key roles, and all the players in the NFL who were not marked as future NFLers when they signed with Rice.

Lots of others, but let's deal with one at a time.

We are irrelevant. Our attendance is pathetic.

The only facts we need. everything else is a specific or a detail.

Note that in 2013 we were competing with CUSA recruits against schools that had been recruiting to lower conferences.

(12-02-2015 10:13 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 10:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Just saying something is so doesn't make it so. The ABB crown repeatedly says he can't ____________ or won't______________ but I see only opinions presented as facts.

He doesn't coach players up is a common one, but I see lots of players playing above their HS press clippings. Bob is a good example, but think of al the walk ons who have played key roles, and all the players in the NFL who were not marked as future NFLers when they signed with Rice.

Lots of others, but let's deal with one at a time.

We are irrelevant. Our attendance is pathetic.

The only facts we need. everything else is a specific or a detail.

You make it sound like our attendance or "relevance" has been better in the last 30 years. When we played A&M LSU or UT I'd guess the crowd was to see them. And in the 60s when we had solid attendance every game played wasn't on TV and we were the only game in town.

(12-02-2015 10:15 AM)At Ease Wrote:  Note that in 2013 we were competing with CUSA recruits against schools that had been recruiting to lower conferences.

Some schools*

(12-02-2015 10:15 AM)cr11owl Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 10:13 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 10:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Just saying something is so doesn't make it so. The ABB crown repeatedly says he can't ____________ or won't______________ but I see only opinions presented as facts.

He doesn't coach players up is a common one, but I see lots of players playing above their HS press clippings. Bob is a good example, but think of al the walk ons who have played key roles, and all the players in the NFL who were not marked as future NFLers when they signed with Rice.

Lots of others, but let's deal with one at a time.

We are irrelevant. Our attendance is pathetic.

The only facts we need. everything else is a specific or a detail.

You make it sound like our attendance or "relevance" has been better in the last 30 years. When we played A&M LSU or UT I'd guess the crowd was to see them. And in the 60s when we had solid attendance every game played wasn't on TV and we were the only game in town.

why is what we did over the last 30 years relevant to where we want to be?

If your predecessor at work or school did a crappy job and got fired, would you rest on his/her crappy performance to justify you falling short?

What we did then has no bearing on what we should do now. If our 30 years of history is too much to overcome, then shutter the program and go D3. Otherwise, its not worth bringing up.

(12-02-2015 10:08 AM)WIowl Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 09:47 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  We risk going the SMU route (but the jury is still out on Morris), but this year has altered my opinion enough that I believe it is worth the risk to try to go UH's route, knowing that we could very well be SMU instead.

SMU was 1-11 the year before. They didn't have a drop off with Morris, and their fans are more optimistic about next year than ours.

Not sure what drop off you are referencing, but 1-11 and 2-10 are almost equal.

But the fact that Morris is in his first year is exactly why I said the jury is still out on him and left it at that. Nothing he has done this year, to me, indicates he can't succeed, simply because it is Year 1.

But UH, not SMU, is the model that we would want to emulate - picking 3/4 coaches in a row that were successful (and it could easily be argued 4/4). And I say that trying to emulate UH is worth the risk now because of what you said, hope, SMU is hopeful next year is better while we are here.

(12-02-2015 10:19 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 10:15 AM)cr11owl Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 10:13 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 10:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Just saying something is so doesn't make it so. The ABB crown repeatedly says he can't ____________ or won't______________ but I see only opinions presented as facts.

He doesn't coach players up is a common one, but I see lots of players playing above their HS press clippings. Bob is a good example, but think of al the walk ons who have played key roles, and all the players in the NFL who were not marked as future NFLers when they signed with Rice.

Lots of others, but let's deal with one at a time.

We are irrelevant. Our attendance is pathetic.

The only facts we need. everything else is a specific or a detail.

You make it sound like our attendance or "relevance" has been better in the last 30 years. When we played A&M LSU or UT I'd guess the crowd was to see them. And in the 60s when we had solid attendance every game played wasn't on TV and we were the only game in town.

why is what we did over the last 30 years relevant to where we want to be?

If your predecessor at work or school did a crappy job and got fired, would you rest on his/her crappy performance to justify you falling short?

What we did then has no bearing on what we should do now. If our 30 years of history is too much to overcome, then shutter the program and go D3. Otherwise, its not worth bringing up.

It is worth bringing up because our commitment to athletics hasn't really changed enough to "get where we want to be". The "we" being the parliament which is what, 250 of the ~100,000 Rice alums+fans?

(12-02-2015 10:25 AM)cr11owl Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 10:19 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 10:15 AM)cr11owl Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 10:13 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 10:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Just saying something is so doesn't make it so. The ABB crown repeatedly says he can't ____________ or won't______________ but I see only opinions presented as facts.

He doesn't coach players up is a common one, but I see lots of players playing above their HS press clippings. Bob is a good example, but think of al the walk ons who have played key roles, and all the players in the NFL who were not marked as future NFLers when they signed with Rice.

Lots of others, but let's deal with one at a time.

We are irrelevant. Our attendance is pathetic.

The only facts we need. everything else is a specific or a detail.

You make it sound like our attendance or "relevance" has been better in the last 30 years. When we played A&M LSU or UT I'd guess the crowd was to see them. And in the 60s when we had solid attendance every game played wasn't on TV and we were the only game in town.

why is what we did over the last 30 years relevant to where we want to be?

If your predecessor at work or school did a crappy job and got fired, would you rest on his/her crappy performance to justify you falling short?

What we did then has no bearing on what we should do now. If our 30 years of history is too much to overcome, then shutter the program and go D3. Otherwise, its not worth bringing up.

It is worth bringing up because our commitment to athletics hasn't really changed enough to "get where we want to be". The "we" being the parliament which is what, 250 of the ~100,000 Rice alums+fans?

In a lot of ways, the ball has been in Bailiffs court. WG performed and found a way to get Reckling built.

This isn't a chicken-egg situation. Throwing money at football (with Bailiff) isn't going to make a difference at all. Neither is an EZF. Sure, more money is better, especially to hire a sought after coach, but we aren't going to attract the top candidates even with more commitment.

We can find someone for 800 grand that can help move us into position to increase commitment.

(12-02-2015 10:11 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  He doesn't coach players up is a common one

No, the common complaint is that he doesn't coach TEAMS up. Except perhaps at quarterback, we have seen PLAYERS get better. But football is a team sport, not an individual sport. And what we haven't seen is a team that plays better than the sum of its parts, with the possible exception of 2013.

(12-02-2015 10:06 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 10:05 AM)greyowl72 Wrote:  

It will be dead for good once Bailiff is gone.

No. No, No, NO!

There will be continuous discontent here until/unless we hit the Mother Lode in coaches, the guy who with no additional university and not much more fan support will suddenly take us to 10, 11, 12 wins a year and soon have the P5s clamoring for our inclusion into the Holy of Holies.

Anything less, is just a plateau. Anything less is unacceptable.

It will live on again when the new coach fails to get us to the next level/fails to get a signature win/ fails in any of the benchmarks that have been used to demonize bailiff. He will play too many/not enough freshmen, He will run too much/not enough, he will pass too deep/not deep enough, he will lose to teams he should beat, he will STILL be playing the dregs of D1, his players will still jump offside and drop passes, he will still be like Bailiff, except it will be OK to do those things, for a little while, if the last name is not Bailiff. And then we will do the cycle again. What won't change is us.

The ABBs also say you won't hit the Mother Lode if you don't try. There is truth in that, but the attitude is all too often that Anybody will be an improvement, we have nothing to lose. Not everybody will be an improvement, and we indeed have something to lose.

The best coaches are being snapped up as we speak. The next best will take the spots they vacated. So we will have to go to a third tier candidate and hope he is the hidden gem. Kind of like the old time wildcatters or prospectors - hey, here looks good, let's try here and if it doesn't work out we'll move on. Could work. Not likely. Probably we will be moving on. After a lot of angst. We will have to rename the ABBs the ABAs - AnybodyButAnybody.

Good luck, y'all. But I am not putting all my chips on 9 red and planning to buy a house with my winnings. And that is only 37-1, not the odds we actually face in this endeavor.

(12-02-2015 10:13 AM)Antarius Wrote:  We are irrelevant. Our attendance is pathetic.

Quote:[N]o one gives a **** about Rice football.

Honest question: What does repeatedly making assertions like this actually accomplish?

(12-02-2015 11:36 AM)RiceFight Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 10:13 AM)Antarius Wrote:  We are irrelevant. Our attendance is pathetic.

Quote:[N]o one gives a **** about Rice football.

Honest question: What does repeatedly making assertions like this actually accomplish?

I make them repeatedly because we still get arguments to the contrary. Some people don't seem to get the gravity of the situation. Someone made an argument during homecoming that we have tons of fans - its baffling tone deaf comments like this that make me have to hammer the point home.

(12-02-2015 01:01 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 12:53 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 12:44 AM)Antarius Wrote:  Plus how ridiculous does this whole thing come off? Can you imagine if one of your employees got emotional to your boss about how awesome you are despite you being a bottom half employee.

How would that work out for you? And as a follow up, why the double standard?

Similarly, you aare a bottom half employee. But your predecessor who got fired was worse. You justify your mediocrity by pointing to theguy that got fired. How would that work out for you?

Seriously - life has one set of rules. And Rice Football has another.

In life you don't give your employee a slide rule and a desk phone and expect him to compete even up with someone who has currently available technology.

when the guy produces good results (2008, 2013) with the slide rule and desk phone, a smart boss improves the resources.

(I know my analogy isn't perfect, but wanted to point out there are limits to the point you're making).

In 2013 we lost by 4 plus scores to a 6-6 team .A better analogy is being awesome at your school and then playing someone else and getting bludgeoned. Sure you win the 'best at my school' prize - but the other guy beat you into a pulp

For the record I used log tables and a slide rule through high school while living aa an expat. This was 10 odd Years ago. Still had to compete with people using TI-89 in school to get in. Its not the equipment that ultimately matters . Remember what Graham had to work with when he made Rice baseball a top 5 team initially?

That was a 6-6 team whose losses came in the SEC West and who was also ranked #1 in the country in 2014. I'm just here to troll today.

(12-02-2015 11:41 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 11:36 AM)RiceFight Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 10:13 AM)Antarius Wrote:  We are irrelevant. Our attendance is pathetic.

Quote:[N]o one gives a **** about Rice football.

Honest question: What does repeatedly making assertions like this actually accomplish?

I make them repeatedly because we still get arguments to the contrary. Some people don't seem to get the gravity of the situation. Someone made an argument during homecoming that we have tons of fans - its baffling tone deaf comments like this that make me have to hammer the point home.

I guess I just don't see the point of insulting what few fans we have, simply for the sake of winning an argument against (relative) strangers on the internet.

I think just about all of us recognize that there's a dearth of attendance and national attention, but as someone who does give a **** about Rice football, I personally don't enjoy being called "no one" or "pathetic". Those who don't see a problem are most likely either not in a position to change anything or aren't the type to be getting their epiphanies from the Parliament.

I'm nobody to tell you what to or not to post, I just see comments like this doing more harm than help.

(12-02-2015 09:50 AM)greyowl72 Wrote:  Just read the whole thread

"Went from a feel good story to another brawl about keep/fire Bailiff.
With absolutely nothing new offered or brought out or discussed. Nothing

With the mood on this board as it is right now, someone could post a BLANK thread subject and it would immediately degenerate into the same old same old

This did not go unnoticed by all, Grey. It is unfortunate that this board is so stuck in its ways that a post about some fantastic publicity and support for the program and school can turn into such pessimism.

I, for one, am DAMN PROUD of what Bob did on Saturday because it was real. That was not staged, not acted, not fake. Those emotions were REAL. Those tears were REAL. His love for Bailiff and Rice is REAL and he is one of MANY that feel that way Given the opportunity, IO believe there are hundreds of recent Rice alumni that would do the same thing.

Where I think the radio broadcasters sticking up for Bailiff are correct is that they have an outsider's, unbiased opinion about the program. This board is so wrapped up in "where we want to be" that they lose sight of where we actually are. Where we are is extremely disappointed in a 5-7 season. If we are THIS disappointed in 5-7, then David Bailiff has done more in 9 years than he is getting credit for. David Bailiff raised the expectations of this program with the team's performances in 2008 and 2012-2014 an that is very valuable. That is exactly why this moment from Bob is so special, it represents the respect, praise, and love for the experience David Bailiff has given his players and vice versa.

Did anybody cry when Toad left?