Driving to my son's middle school basketball game to pick him up and take him to baseball practice earlier. Radio 610 devoted about 5 to 8 minutes to Bob's speech at the press conference Saturday. Really good stuff. Was on from 5:50 to 6:00 pm (freeway still solid at 5 mph)

First they kind of went over the type of player Turner is. The kid who'll play any where he's needed. Great all around athlete. Compared what he did here to James Casey, and mentioned Casey also went to Rice.

Then played the tape. Lot's of great comments from the 3 hosts about what all Bailiff had done down here and how much he cared about the kids. About how Rice does things right. Said that we were a little down this year but immediately talked about going to bowls the last 3 years for the first time in school history (evidently that narrative has legs in the broadcasting community outside the hedges).

The ABB-lobby would've been ok with about 15 seconds of the segment. Hosts said that the Chronicle beat person (Stephanie right?) had tweeted that the interview might relieve some of the pressure to replace Bailiff because of this season.

That thought had no traction though as one of the hosts immediately broke in with a loud " Are you freaking kidding me?" And said there was no way Bailiff should be let go after the last 3 seasons. Discussion about doing things right and how academics make Rice job a little tougher than most coaching assignments.

Somewhere in there they repeated the Chronicle tweet that this year's seniors had won 30 games in 4 years, which was the best 4-year total in Rice history, breaking a mark set in 1949. (They did not mention the schedules are now longer and it's a different conference (and era)).

The segment was very positive toward Luke, Rice and Coach Bailiff. They said (twice I think) that Luke's interview was a tremendous recruiting tool for Rice. I think they nailed that. It was great for us. All of us (seriously) would've been happy hearing it.

The ABB memo about 'tolerating losing' evidently is not getting circulation outside the hedges.

(I'm using ABB lobby ('anyone but Bailiff') because there seem to be a decent group in that camp, and I think continually saying anti-Bailiff is unfair because not everyone of you in that camp want to be considered anti-Bailiff, you just have a specific view of what you think is good for the team or school. ABB lobby is short and more neutral, and we get the meaning)

As I read, I was all set to post my snarky comment along the lines of: "You mean the 610 hosts didn't bring up the Sagarin ratings and Strength of Schedule?!? Don't they know Rice Football has peaked?"

But by the time I finished reading, I decided I just want to say thanks for passing it along. There really is a bubble around the program where the only regular public discourse is the Chronicle and sometimes Houston Press.

Like them or not, talk radio and the nightly newscasts offer an accurate depiction of the perception of our Owls. I'm not in Houston much these days, so it's increasingly difficult to get the actual pulse of things.

Thanks for posting that.

I'm not literally ABB. maybe aABB (almost ...)

I will stipulate that he is a good guy who represents, even strengthens, Rice values and has recruited a remarkable number of NFL players.

But that doesn't mean he can prepare a team to win games. The 30 win stat could plausibly be due to the combination of recruiting and schedule dilution. He obviously gets credit for recruiting.

consider this contrarian idea--the fact that the 610 guys think it is ridiculous to consider making a change might be evidence that they aren't really paying attention.

(12-01-2015 10:01 PM)MemOwl Wrote:  Thanks for posting that.

I'm not literally ABB. maybe aABB (almost ...)

I will stipulate that he is a good guy who represents, even strengthens, Rice values and has recruited a remarkable number of NFL players.

But that doesn't mean he can prepare a team to win games. The 30 win stat could plausibly be due to the combination of recruiting and schedule dilution. He obviously gets credit for recruiting.

consider this contrarian idea--the fact that the 610 guys think it is ridiculous to consider making a change might be evidence that they aren't really paying attention.

I think that's correct to an extent. I think generally they realize that we've had a down season. They understand 5-7, but not necessarily how we've played. They know it's not 0-12 or 2-10.

They know we've been in bowl games though and won a conference championship. They also periodically interact with all of our revenue-sport coaches, so they know (and like) our coaches.

Rice is a Houston team, and Bailiff is a genuinely good guy, so they are predisposed to be as positive as possible any time we can give them any reason to be so. And frankly, over the last 4 years we have for the most part.

And they love feel-good stories. And coach has provided them with plenty of them over the years. Whether it's the walk-on running back from the past couple of years who stuck it out on the scout team and got playing time, or the time we honored the scholarship offer to the player who discovered he had a medical condition that wouldn't allow him to play, to the Luke Turner story.

All colleges like to put out stories like that. We're not unique. In some cases they're contrived, but not all. The thing about Bailiff and Rice is that the stories aren't one-offs, and after you see a recurring pattern, it becomes pretty obvious that he's the real deal in terms of character.

That's my take on it.

Regardless, it was great publicity, and I'm sure our coaches will use this in their recruiting (assuming DB is still our coach, at least for 2016).

Very ironic that I've also seen Rice on two worldwide leader shows today talking about possibility 5-7 teams going to bowl games. It was very good publicity. Ironically probably better than being 6-6 in the New Mexico Bowl that nobody would have known about.

They were showing Rice clips included with Nebraska, K-State, Va Tech, Illinois, etc. clips and discussing them in context as all as a group of peers w/ 5 W's. Viewer left with the impression that all of those teams/schools were peers which of course is true if you define peers as 5-win teams but the takeaway for the viewer was Rice being positioned as being in the same P5 club playing a much higher class of football than reality. If you were a Rice fan, you liked seeing the Owls in that club of teams on the national stage. Reality is obviously a bit different as you look at some of the W's other teams had (e.g. Nebraska over Mich St).

We see it over-and-over again (even outside of sport) on power of the media. Media drives perceptions, optics, sound bytes, etc. making the narrative seem complete b/c it can be digested quickly. Whether on 610 or on the Worldwide Leader, it is about finding that quick thing that can 'connect' people to something. People are not going to connect to Sagarin, C-USA, deep ball/explosive plays given-up, etc. so it is not part of the story.

For average Joe and Jane Smith in H-Town it is, "I like that good guy coach at Rice. He does the right things. Not really up-to-speed on what conference they are in anymore but that is ok b/c they have great kids and graduate them. Hey, aren't a few actually in the NFL now?"

Not enough like by average Joe and Jane of the Owls to pay to watch them at HRS but do like hearing, reading, seeing, etc. the feel good things that do happen on South Main with stories like Luke, Nordstrom, Jayson, Ziggy, graduation rates, etc. all of which happened on DB's watch. He deserves respect, props, and accolades for all of those things. May not be a great football coach but is a great man.

Will be a fantastic day for Rice FB when the feel good moments that make Rice special are not viewed as mutually exclusive from achieving on-the-field W's against top/real competition though. That continues to be the gap between the external audiences and Parliament audience.

And this is exactly why Rice hasn't gotten anywhere for 50 years.

I mentioned this would become an excuse several days ago to justify Bailiff. And voila! It has.

(12-01-2015 11:45 PM)Antarius Wrote:  And this is exactly why Rice hasn't gotten anywhere for 50 years.

I mentioned this would become an excuse several days ago to justify Bailiff. And voila! It has.

Bingo.

(12-02-2015 12:06 AM)Orange County Owl Wrote:  

(12-01-2015 11:45 PM)Antarius Wrote:  And this is exactly why Rice hasn't gotten anywhere for 50 years.

I mentioned this would become an excuse several days ago to justify Bailiff. And voila! It has.

Bingo.

You guys hate Luke Turner now?

We'd have to call in OOPSSteamCleaning.com if a Rice player popped off and said Bailiff tortured puppies, ate children and made players wear thongs under their uniform pants. ABBites would be giddy like schoolgirls!

(12-01-2015 11:43 PM)owl40 Wrote:  Very ironic that I've also seen Rice on two worldwide leader shows today talking about possibility 5-7 teams going to bowl games. It was very good publicity. Ironically probably better than being 6-6 in the New Mexico Bowl that nobody would have known about.

They were showing Rice clips included with Nebraska, K-State, Va Tech, Illinois, etc. clips and discussing them in context as all as a group of peers w/ 5 W's. Viewer left with the impression that all of those teams/schools were peers which of course is true if you define peers as 5-win teams but the takeaway for the viewer was Rice being positioned as being in the same P5 club playing a much higher class of football than reality. If you were a Rice fan, you liked seeing the Owls in that club of teams on the national stage. Reality is obviously a bit different as you look at some of the W's other teams had (e.g. Nebraska over Mich St).

We see it over-and-over again (even outside of sport) on power of the media. Media drives perceptions, optics, sound bytes, etc. making the narrative seem complete b/c it can be digested quickly. Whether on 610 or on the Worldwide Leader, it is about finding that quick thing that can 'connect' people to something. People are not going to connect to Sagarin, C-USA, deep ball/explosive plays given-up, etc. so it is not part of the story.

For average Joe and Jane Smith in H-Town it is, "I like that good guy coach at Rice. He does the right things. Not really up-to-speed on what conference they are in anymore but that is ok b/c they have great kids and graduate them. Hey, aren't a few actually in the NFL now?"

Not enough like by average Joe and Jane of the Owls to pay to watch them at HRS but do like hearing, reading, seeing, etc. the feel good things that do happen on South Main with stories like Luke, Nordstrom, Jayson, Ziggy, graduation rates, etc. all of which happened on DB's watch. He deserves respect, props, and accolades for all of those things. May not be a great football coach but is a great man.

Will be a fantastic day for Rice FB when the feel good moments that make Rice special are not viewed as mutually exclusive from achieving on-the-field W's against top/real competition though. That continues to be the gap between the external audiences and Parliament audience.

I think you're generally correct about how Joe and Jane Q. Public view Rice in Houston (and outside Houston too, based on comments I get).

The thing is that if you're not in the Top 30, or in a market where you don't have competition from pro sports and you can be THE hometown team (as Rice was in the 1940's and 50's), you are relying primarily on alumni and their families to attend football games.

Joe Public in College Station isn't needed to fill the stadium. They have lots of alumni queuing up to buy tickets in the 3rd deck in he end zone.

Other than Tulsa, Rice has fewer alumni than any Division 1 school. And Tulsa has an advantage over us in that if you live in Tulsa and want to watch a game in person, you go to a Hurricane game. ORU will not supplant them as the home town team.

Our biggest issues in developing a following are going to start with two factors: (1) the size of our enrollment, and (2) the kind of people that make up the Rice Student body (independent, academically focused, quite willing to blaze their own way).

A&M builds tradition (bonfire, midnight yell practice, fish camp) based on group experience and developing a sense of belonging.

Other colleges do that through fraternities and sororities. Often those groups are marketed to by athletic departments.

Rice is not like that. (I'm not a big fan of fraternities or sororities, and would hate to ever see them at Rice, just to clarify).

Frankly if someone hasn't grown up playing football, or watching a brother play, or learned to enjoy the spectacle of a football game in high school (either as a fan, band member, or following a friend) then they're not very likely to develop the habit at Rice, particularly if they have a heavy academic load.

That's where efforts need to be made. Parliament members who donated Liberty Bowl tickets to the student body may have done more about addressing this than they imagined.

I don't have the answers. There may not be any good ones. But I think the general public will be more inclined to get involved if they believe our alumni are all involved and engaged.

The size of our alumni base (and therefore attendance) is the biggest issue we have. there are lots of P5 schools that historically do not win much. Have to be, because total wins and losses are a zero sum game. They are P5, not because they are Top 30 teams, but because they are large schools with alumni support and the networks can count on alumni in their advertising sales.

We were 8-4, and undefeated at home in 2001, but our attendance was not dramatically better than it was in 2000 or 2002, IIRC.

(12-02-2015 12:13 AM)Afflicted Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 12:06 AM)Orange County Owl Wrote:  

(12-01-2015 11:45 PM)Antarius Wrote:  And this is exactly why Rice hasn't gotten anywhere for 50 years.

I mentioned this would become an excuse several days ago to justify Bailiff. And voila! It has.

Bingo.

You guys hate Luke Turner now?

You have reading comprehension problems.

No one has a problem with Bob. I respect his love for Rice .I have a problem with this being used to justify crap. That has nothing to do with Bob and everything to do with posts like yours.

Owl40 - my biggest issue with thegreat man who gets Rice and who everyone loves argument Is that we can get that for far less than 800 grand .Heck, I know several who would do it for an eigth of his Salary.

As a result, I'm just not impressed by this feel good fluff that is the only calling card of Bailiff. If this is good enough we can drop to Div 3 for a fraction of the cost and get the same warm and fuzzy feeling

(12-01-2015 11:45 PM)Antarius Wrote:  And this is exactly why Rice hasn't gotten anywhere for 50 years.

I mentioned this would become an excuse several days ago to justify Bailiff. And voila! It has.

Not exactly true. Public perception wouldn't be enough to keep Bailiff around on its own. If we hadn't had 2008 and 2012-14, there is zero chance he would still be our coach.

Coaches with zero success don't last here, or have not historically.

And if he is here next year, I doubt he will be given an infinite number of mulligans.

If there is no change this off-season, the issue I think most of the ABB lobby has is not with JK, who would not be acting irrationally under the circumstances (for the record he will not be acting irrationally no matter what he does), but with his predecessor who they undoubtedly believe waited one or two years too long before giving up on DB. The 'extra year' gave DB the chance to prove he could repeat 2008.

Plus how ridiculous does this whole thing come off? Can you imagine if one of your employees got emotional to your boss about how awesome you are despite you being a bottom half employee.

How would that work out for you? And as a follow up, why the double standard?

Similarly, you aare a bottom half employee. But your predecessor who got fired was worse. You justify your mediocrity by pointing to theguy that got fired. How would that work out for you?

Seriously - life has one set of rules. And Rice Football has another.

(12-02-2015 12:44 AM)Antarius Wrote:  Plus how ridiculous does this whole thing come off? Can you imagine if one of your employees got emotional to your boss about how awesome you are despite you being a bottom half employee.

How would that work out for you? And as a follow up, why the double standard?

Similarly, you aare a bottom half employee. But your predecessor who got fired was worse. You justify your mediocrity by pointing to theguy that got fired. How would that work out for you?

Seriously - life has one set of rules. And Rice Football has another.

In life you don't give your employee a slide rule and a desk phone and expect him to compete even up with someone who has currently available technology.

when the guy produces good results (2008, 2013) with the slide rule and desk phone, a smart boss improves the resources.

(I know my analogy isn't perfect, but wanted to point out there are limits to the point you're making).

(12-02-2015 12:53 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 12:44 AM)Antarius Wrote:  Plus how ridiculous does this whole thing come off? Can you imagine if one of your employees got emotional to your boss about how awesome you are despite you being a bottom half employee.

How would that work out for you? And as a follow up, why the double standard?

Similarly, you aare a bottom half employee. But your predecessor who got fired was worse. You justify your mediocrity by pointing to theguy that got fired. How would that work out for you?

Seriously - life has one set of rules. And Rice Football has another.

In life you don't give your employee a slide rule and a desk phone and expect him to compete even up with someone who has currently available technology.

when the guy produces good results (2008, 2013) with the slide rule and desk phone, a smart boss improves the resources.

(I know my analogy isn't perfect, but wanted to point out there are limits to the point you're making).

In 2013 we lost by 4 plus scores to a 6-6 team .A better analogy is being awesome at your school and then playing someone else and getting bludgeoned. Sure you win the 'best at my school' prize - but the other guy beat you into a pulp

For the record I used log tables and a slide rule through high school while living aa an expat. This was 10 odd Years ago. Still had to compete with people using TI-89 in school to get in. Its not the equipment that ultimately matters . Remember what Graham had to work with when he made Rice baseball a top 5 team initially?

(12-02-2015 12:47 AM)Orange County Owl Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 12:13 AM)Afflicted Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 12:06 AM)Orange County Owl Wrote:  

(12-01-2015 11:45 PM)Antarius Wrote:  And this is exactly why Rice hasn't gotten anywhere for 50 years.

I mentioned this would become an excuse several days ago to justify Bailiff. And voila! It has.

Bingo.

You guys hate Luke Turner now?

Your posts are even more nonsensical than before you were banned, and that's saying something.

The phrase my cousin has used for stuff Iike this is "weapons grade stupidity".

(12-02-2015 01:01 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 12:53 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 12:44 AM)Antarius Wrote:  Plus how ridiculous does this whole thing come off? Can you imagine if one of your employees got emotional to your boss about how awesome you are despite you being a bottom half employee.

How would that work out for you? And as a follow up, why the double standard?

Similarly, you aare a bottom half employee. But your predecessor who got fired was worse. You justify your mediocrity by pointing to theguy that got fired. How would that work out for you?

Seriously - life has one set of rules. And Rice Football has another.

In life you don't give your employee a slide rule and a desk phone and expect him to compete even up with someone who has currently available technology.

when the guy produces good results (2008, 2013) with the slide rule and desk phone, a smart boss improves the resources.

(I know my analogy isn't perfect, but wanted to point out there are limits to the point you're making).

In 2013 we lost by 4 plus scores to a 6-6 team .A better analogy is being awesome at your school and then playing someone else and getting bludgeoned. Sure you win the 'best at my school' prize - but the other guy beat you into a pulp

For the record I used log tables and a slide rule through high school while living aa an expat. This was 10 odd Years ago. Still had to compete with people using TI-89 in school to get in. Its not the equipment that ultimately matters . Remember what Graham had to work with when he made Rice baseball a top 5 team initially?

Like I said, if someone has success with bad resources, reward them.

(12-02-2015 01:04 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 01:01 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 12:53 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 12:44 AM)Antarius Wrote:  Plus how ridiculous does this whole thing come off? Can you imagine if one of your employees got emotional to your boss about how awesome you are despite you being a bottom half employee.

How would that work out for you? And as a follow up, why the double standard?

Similarly, you aare a bottom half employee. But your predecessor who got fired was worse. You justify your mediocrity by pointing to theguy that got fired. How would that work out for you?

Seriously - life has one set of rules. And Rice Football has another.

In life you don't give your employee a slide rule and a desk phone and expect him to compete even up with someone who has currently available technology.

when the guy produces good results (2008, 2013) with the slide rule and desk phone, a smart boss improves the resources.

(I know my analogy isn't perfect, but wanted to point out there are limits to the point you're making).

In 2013 we lost by 4 plus scores to a 6-6 team .A better analogy is being awesome at your school and then playing someone else and getting bludgeoned. Sure you win the 'best at my school' prize - but the other guy beat you into a pulp

For the record I used log tables and a slide rule through high school while living aa an expat. This was 10 odd Years ago. Still had to compete with people using TI-89 in school to get in. Its not the equipment that ultimately matters . Remember what Graham had to work with when he made Rice baseball a top 5 team initially?

Like I said, if someone has success with bad resources, reward them.

We have different definitions of success. Losing to a 6-6 team is not what I call rampant reward worthy success.

(12-02-2015 01:01 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 12:53 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(12-02-2015 12:44 AM)Antarius Wrote:  Plus how ridiculous does this whole thing come off? Can you imagine if one of your employees got emotional to your boss about how awesome you are despite you being a bottom half employee.

How would that work out for you? And as a follow up, why the double standard?

Similarly, you aare a bottom half employee. But your predecessor who got fired was worse. You justify your mediocrity by pointing to theguy that got fired. How would that work out for you?

Seriously - life has one set of rules. And Rice Football has another.

In life you don't give your employee a slide rule and a desk phone and expect him to compete even up with someone who has currently available technology.

when the guy produces good results (2008, 2013) with the slide rule and desk phone, a smart boss improves the resources.

(I know my analogy isn't perfect, but wanted to point out there are limits to the point you're making).

In 2013 we lost by 4 plus scores to a 6-6 team .A better analogy is being awesome at your school and then playing someone else and getting bludgeoned. Sure you win the 'best at my school' prize - but the other guy beat you into a pulp

For the record I used log tables and a slide rule through high school while living aa an expat. This was 10 odd Years ago. Still had to compete with people using TI-89 in school to get in. Its not the equipment that ultimately matters . Remember what Graham had to work with when he made Rice baseball a top 5 team initially?

That 6-6 team got back a resource they didn't have for half the season before their game with us. Those same resources had them ranked in the Top 10 for awhile the next year.