(12-07-2015 04:40 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:34 PM)WIowl Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:20 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 03:34 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 03:20 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  We could get a first-time FBS head coach for quite a bit less than $3 million. Who? Well, if JK doesn't know better than me then we're paying him way too much. If the goal of T25 and P5 isn't just empty talk, then eventually we'll have to pay for a coach that can perform at that level. What are USM's and WKU's coaches being payed? I'll bet it's not $3 million.

Right, I trust JK to make that decision when the time comes. I'd think our salary for a new coach should be around 1-1.2, then we could get P5 coordinators into the mix like excitedowl said. I'd be even happier if we could get someone for Bailiff's salary and tie large incentives to our goals. WKU and USM will have to up those salaries or else they will lose them and if we find someone we want to keep I'd hope we would do the same thing like we did for Rhoades.

And keep in mind that neither WKU or USM are meeting the T25 or P5 goals yet either. UH, 50% of them.

WKU is ranked #25 in the Top 25 AP poll. Rice is #25 in the Bottom 25 poll.

And yes, UH is at 50% of your two metrics, but JK listed: signature wins (check, they beat Louisville, ranked Memphis, Temple, and Navy), conference championship (check), Top 25 rankings (check), and a bowl game (minimum expectation, check, also playing in THE Access Bowl).

just repeated the two above. If those are all signature wins, I think we would get to count Marshall (2013) as well. But again, the definition of signature wins varies on the eye of the beholder.

Was Marshall ranked in 2013? No. But if you want to include them, fine. That's ONE. In 9 years. And a couple of seasons ago....UH had four this year.

(12-07-2015 04:45 PM)WIowl Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:40 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:34 PM)WIowl Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:20 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 03:34 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  Right, I trust JK to make that decision when the time comes. I'd think our salary for a new coach should be around 1-1.2, then we could get P5 coordinators into the mix like excitedowl said. I'd be even happier if we could get someone for Bailiff's salary and tie large incentives to our goals. WKU and USM will have to up those salaries or else they will lose them and if we find someone we want to keep I'd hope we would do the same thing like we did for Rhoades.

And keep in mind that neither WKU or USM are meeting the T25 or P5 goals yet either. UH, 50% of them.

WKU is ranked #25 in the Top 25 AP poll. Rice is #25 in the Bottom 25 poll.

And yes, UH is at 50% of your two metrics, but JK listed: signature wins (check, they beat Louisville, ranked Memphis, Temple, and Navy), conference championship (check), Top 25 rankings (check), and a bowl game (minimum expectation, check, also playing in THE Access Bowl).

just repeated the two above. If those are all signature wins, I think we would get to count Marshall (2013) as well. But again, the definition of signature wins varies on the eye of the beholder.

Was Marshall ranked in 2013? No. But if you want to include them, fine. That's ONE. In 9 years. And a couple of seasons ago....UH had four this year.

No, but in all fairness, neither is Louisville, which was why Marshall was brought up...

That's what I don't get about the anti-DB crowd, sometimes enough just isn't enough, and there always seems to be this desire to try and exaggerate the obvious that doesn't need to be exaggerated. UH's performance this year, as well as in 2011 have far outpaced anything that DB (or really, almost any other coach) has been able to do at Rice. You can easily make that argument based solely on the inclusion of the UH team in the AP poll.

(12-07-2015 04:51 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:45 PM)WIowl Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:40 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:34 PM)WIowl Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:20 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  And keep in mind that neither WKU or USM are meeting the T25 or P5 goals yet either. UH, 50% of them.

WKU is ranked #25 in the Top 25 AP poll. Rice is #25 in the Bottom 25 poll.

And yes, UH is at 50% of your two metrics, but JK listed: signature wins (check, they beat Louisville, ranked Memphis, Temple, and Navy), conference championship (check), Top 25 rankings (check), and a bowl game (minimum expectation, check, also playing in THE Access Bowl).

just repeated the two above. If those are all signature wins, I think we would get to count Marshall (2013) as well. But again, the definition of signature wins varies on the eye of the beholder.

Was Marshall ranked in 2013? No. But if you want to include them, fine. That's ONE. In 9 years. And a couple of seasons ago....UH had four this year.

No, but in all fairness, neither is Louisville, which was why Marshall was brought up...

That's what I don't get about the anti-DB crowd, sometimes enough just isn't enough, and there always seems to be this desire to try and exaggerate the obvious that doesn't need to be exaggerated. UH's performance this year, as well as in 2011 have far outpaced anything that DB (or really, almost any other coach) has been able to do at Rice. You can easily make that argument based solely on the inclusion of the UH team in the AP poll.

Geez, there's a far cry from being ranked in the Top 25 and getting blown off the field against any team ranked in the Top 75 You agree there's just a wee bit of difference? I have never thought Top 25 was a realistic goal, but save for one or two games in 9 years, Bailiff has been unable to get his team in a position to even compete against teams ranked inside the Top75 (which represent only the Top 60% of the FBS division).

(12-07-2015 04:58 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:51 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:45 PM)WIowl Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:40 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:34 PM)WIowl Wrote:  WKU is ranked #25 in the Top 25 AP poll. Rice is #25 in the Bottom 25 poll.

And yes, UH is at 50% of your two metrics, but JK listed: signature wins (check, they beat Louisville, ranked Memphis, Temple, and Navy), conference championship (check), Top 25 rankings (check), and a bowl game (minimum expectation, check, also playing in THE Access Bowl).

just repeated the two above. If those are all signature wins, I think we would get to count Marshall (2013) as well. But again, the definition of signature wins varies on the eye of the beholder.

Was Marshall ranked in 2013? No. But if you want to include them, fine. That's ONE. In 9 years. And a couple of seasons ago....UH had four this year.

No, but in all fairness, neither is Louisville, which was why Marshall was brought up...

That's what I don't get about the anti-DB crowd, sometimes enough just isn't enough, and there always seems to be this desire to try and exaggerate the obvious that doesn't need to be exaggerated. UH's performance this year, as well as in 2011 have far outpaced anything that DB (or really, almost any other coach) has been able to do at Rice. You can easily make that argument based solely on the inclusion of the UH team in the AP poll.

Geez, there's a far cry from being ranked in the Top 25 and getting blown off the field against any team ranked in the Top 75 You agree there's just a wee bit of difference? I have never thought Top 25 was a realistic goal, but save for one or two games in 9 years, Bailiff has been unable to get his team in a position to even compete against teams ranked inside the Top75 (which represent only the Top 60% of the FBS division).

Huh?

I was talking about how regularly there are a million criticisms to pull from, and somehow people seem to go overboard and muddy their case by piling on with criticisms that are unwarranted, unfounded, or debatable.

This has nothing to do with wanting a better product on the field...

(12-07-2015 04:51 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:45 PM)WIowl Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:40 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:34 PM)WIowl Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:20 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  And keep in mind that neither WKU or USM are meeting the T25 or P5 goals yet either. UH, 50% of them.

WKU is ranked #25 in the Top 25 AP poll. Rice is #25 in the Bottom 25 poll.

And yes, UH is at 50% of your two metrics, but JK listed: signature wins (check, they beat Louisville, ranked Memphis, Temple, and Navy), conference championship (check), Top 25 rankings (check), and a bowl game (minimum expectation, check, also playing in THE Access Bowl).

just repeated the two above. If those are all signature wins, I think we would get to count Marshall (2013) as well. But again, the definition of signature wins varies on the eye of the beholder.

Was Marshall ranked in 2013? No. But if you want to include them, fine. That's ONE. In 9 years. And a couple of seasons ago....UH had four this year.

No, but in all fairness, neither is Louisville, which was why Marshall was brought up...

That's what I don't get about the anti-DB crowd, sometimes enough just isn't enough, and there always seems to be this desire to try and exaggerate the obvious that doesn't need to be exaggerated. UH's performance this year, as well as in 2011 have far outpaced anything that DB (or really, almost any other coach) has been able to do at Rice. You can easily make that argument based solely on the inclusion of the UH team in the AP poll.

It's not that "enough isn't enough", that implies that significant progress has been made. It has not. And if you argue it has, then we have regressed and that progress is gone. Either way, we're back at square one.

Louisville has a name and is a big win on the road, same as if Rice beat Texas this year. It would have been a big deal even with the bad year Texas was having. It doesn't really matter, Bailiff has one signature win.

The bigger point is UH has 4 in a single year (plus beating Vanderbilt, Cincinnati) and Bailiff has 1 in 9 years.

The other bigger point and why half of the fans are so frustrated is that Rice has determined that 1 win in 9 years is "good enough".

And, the evidence suggests that ~$1 million/yr ought to get a head coach that can get to the upper half of FBS, have a shot at cracking the T25 sometimes, and compete for the conference title. That's only a start toward loftier goals, but it isn't a pipe dream.

(12-07-2015 05:02 PM)WIowl Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:51 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:45 PM)WIowl Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:40 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 04:34 PM)WIowl Wrote:  WKU is ranked #25 in the Top 25 AP poll. Rice is #25 in the Bottom 25 poll.

And yes, UH is at 50% of your two metrics, but JK listed: signature wins (check, they beat Louisville, ranked Memphis, Temple, and Navy), conference championship (check), Top 25 rankings (check), and a bowl game (minimum expectation, check, also playing in THE Access Bowl).

just repeated the two above. If those are all signature wins, I think we would get to count Marshall (2013) as well. But again, the definition of signature wins varies on the eye of the beholder.

Was Marshall ranked in 2013? No. But if you want to include them, fine. That's ONE. In 9 years. And a couple of seasons ago....UH had four this year.

No, but in all fairness, neither is Louisville, which was why Marshall was brought up...

That's what I don't get about the anti-DB crowd, sometimes enough just isn't enough, and there always seems to be this desire to try and exaggerate the obvious that doesn't need to be exaggerated. UH's performance this year, as well as in 2011 have far outpaced anything that DB (or really, almost any other coach) has been able to do at Rice. You can easily make that argument based solely on the inclusion of the UH team in the AP poll.

It's not that "enough isn't enough", that implies that significant progress has been made. It has not. And if you argue it has, then we have regressed and that progress is gone. Either way, we're back at square one.

Louisville has a name and is a big win on the road, same as if Rice beat Texas this year. It would have been a big deal even with the bad year Texas was having. It doesn't really matter, Bailiff has one signature win.

The bigger point is UH has 4 in a single year (plus beating Vanderbilt, Cincinnati) and Bailiff has 1 in 9 years.

The other bigger point and why half of the fans are so frustrated is that Rice has determined that 1 win in 9 years is "good enough".

Maybe I should have rethought the connotation of the phrase I used. Apparently it overtook the rest of the words it was attached to. I thought it was pretty obvious I was talking about the exaggeration of the criticisms of Bailiff, not the desires and accomplishments of Rice.

I'll try and be a lot more clear and explicit since it's obvious how tinted the glasses have become.

Whatever we've had in the last nine years, it's not enough. If that puts me in the Bailiff-hater crowd, so be it. I can at least agree with them that whatever he has accomplished so far is significantly less than what we need. The issue to me is whether he can do any better. I don't know. I don't think so, but the mid-2012 to 2014 run was better than I thought he was capable of doing after 2009-2011. So maybe he is capable of doing more than I think he can do now. What I think he is probably capable of producing is something like a 6-year cycle of 3-9, 4-8, 7-5, 9-3, 7-5, 4-8. We've tracked pretty close to that over the last 6 years, meaning we're due for 3-9 next year, and that's about what I expect. If we do go 3-9, that should definitely be his last year here.

I DIDN'T MEAN ENOUGH IN REGARDS TO OUR PERFORMANCES.

AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

I do not hate Baliff but I do not think the program is where it needs to be now to keep our fans. I anticipate he will be back next year but it is going to take a good season next year to stay.

(12-07-2015 05:56 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Whatever we've had in the last nine years, it's not enough. If that puts me in the Bailiff-hater crowd, so be it. I can at least agree with them that whatever he has accomplished so far is significantly less than what we need. The issue to me is whether he can do any better. I don't know. I don't think so, but the mid-2012 to 2014 run was better than I thought he was capable of doing after 2009-2011. So maybe he is capable of doing more than I think he can do now. What I think he is probably capable of producing is something like a 6-year cycle of 3-9, 4-8, 7-5, 9-3, 7-5, 4-8. We've tracked pretty close to that over the last 6 years, meaning we're due for 3-9 next year, and that's about what I expect. If we do go 3-9, that should definitely be his last year here.

(12-07-2015 07:35 PM)75src Wrote:  I do not hate Baliff but I do not think the program is where it needs to be now to keep our fans. I anticipate he will be back next year but it is going to take a good season next year to stay.

You need to qualify "good". To half the Rice fans that means showing up and participating. I think good equals 9+ wins, especially with our CUSA schedule.

(12-07-2015 09:27 PM)WIowl Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 07:35 PM)75src Wrote:  I do not hate Baliff but I do not think the program is where it needs to be now to keep our fans. I anticipate he will be back next year but it is going to take a good season next year to stay.

You need to qualify "good". To half the Rice fans that means showing up and participating. I think good equals 9+ wins, especially with our CUSA schedule.

You know that we're rebuilding next year, right? There will be a new quarterback (or, more likely, two or three as the staff will need some time to settle on the "right" one), and lots of other positions with newcomers. All of those freshmen who played this season will only be sophomores, so you cannot expect them to match up favorably with juniors and seniors (and JC transfers) from other schools. Finally, the schedule will not set up as well as it will in 2017. No Rice fan should reasonably anticipate more than 3-4 wins, as coaches aim for a peak in 2018.

(12-07-2015 09:36 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 09:27 PM)WIowl Wrote:  

(12-07-2015 07:35 PM)75src Wrote:  I do not hate Baliff but I do not think the program is where it needs to be now to keep our fans. I anticipate he will be back next year but it is going to take a good season next year to stay.

You need to qualify "good". To half the Rice fans that means showing up and participating. I think good equals 9+ wins, especially with our CUSA schedule.

You know that we're rebuilding next year, right? There will be a new quarterback (or, more likely, two or three as the staff will need some time to settle on the "right" one), and lots of other positions with newcomers. All of those freshmen who played this season will only be sophomores, so you cannot expect them to match up favorably with juniors and seniors (and JC transfers) from other schools. Finally, the schedule will not set up as well as it will in 2017. No Rice fan should reasonably anticipate more than 3-4 wins, as coaches aim for a peak in 2018.

You're right there will be a new QB. you're right the schedule will not match up as well.

the rest of it, well...

I think I will wait until August before attempting to put a ceiling on how we might do.

Is this in any way supportive of the players, especially those sophs? Seems to me to be another case of firing at Bailiff with a sawed off shotgun and not worrying about collateral damage.