(07-26-2015 02:17 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:53 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:50 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:36 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-25-2015 11:50 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  Liberal politicians know damn well how this works. They know that they've raised minimum wage over and over for decades and the people earning it are worse off than they were then.

But its a cheap ploy to trot out before every election cycle...a bribe to low information voters with something that somebody else has to pay for.

They are not dumb, but their bleeding heart followers lap that stuff up and have the memory of gnats.

I thought this was interesting.


The CBO estimated in February 2014 that raising the minimum wage to $10.10 and indexing it to inflation would improve income inequality. Families with income more than 6 times the poverty threshold (for a family of four that would be those making over $145,500 a year) would see their incomes fall (due in part to their business profits declining with higher employee costs), while families with incomes below that threshold (most families) would rise.

We have more unskilled labor than there is demand for it.

When you have too much of something that not enough people are buying....the solution is NOT to raise the price and import even more of it from Mexico.

Think about that. It's insane.

Then why are there so many undocumented immigrants in the country?

According to your own numbers, apparently half of them are here receiving free Obamacare.

Nowhere has anyone said that. Gosh you get confused so often. Undocumented immigrants by law can't get health insurance tax credits or even buy health insurance on one of the exchanges. They can't get medicaid, snap or anything else either.

You must be misunderstanding the estimates that about 6.5 million of them are included in the 33 million people in the country without health insurance. Thus it appears that maybe, roughly 4.5 million undocumented immigrants have insurance. Not that they got it from the ACA exchanges (remember they can't by law) or just got it, but that they have insurance.

(07-26-2015 01:05 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:53 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:50 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:36 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-25-2015 11:50 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  Liberal politicians know damn well how this works. They know that they've raised minimum wage over and over for decades and the people earning it are worse off than they were then.

But its a cheap ploy to trot out before every election cycle...a bribe to low information voters with something that somebody else has to pay for.

They are not dumb, but their bleeding heart followers lap that stuff up and have the memory of gnats.

I thought this was interesting.


The CBO estimated in February 2014 that raising the minimum wage to $10.10 and indexing it to inflation would improve income inequality. Families with income more than 6 times the poverty threshold (for a family of four that would be those making over $145,500 a year) would see their incomes fall (due in part to their business profits declining with higher employee costs), while families with incomes below that threshold (most families) would rise.

We have more unskilled labor than there is demand for it.

When you have too much of something that not enough people are buying....the solution is NOT to raise the price and import even more of it from Mexico.

Think about that. It's insane.

Then why are there so many undocumented immigrants in the country?

You are missing the point.

If there were a shortage of unskilled labor, then the price would naturally rise as employers tried to compete for workers. Workers would have leverage.

Who do you think wants a surplus of unskilled labor? Corporations, US Chamber of Commerce, politicians who want people dependent on their patronage, and dumb bleeding hearts.

This is real simple. Arbitrarily raising the price of unneeded unskilled labor....while importing even more of it...is a recipe for trouble....not higher standards of living.

All good points but I wouldn't think a reasonable increase in the minimum wage, that reflects increases in the cost of living would actually be arbitrary would it? After all we are just taking about a minimum. It just makes sense to me that an adult with a child and working at minimum wage shouldn't have to rely on snap and the food bank to make ends meet.

You know buying a fast food hamburger, fries, and a coke for $3.21 is a good indication that prices are artificially low.

Let me be clear, I'm not advocating for a $15 minimum wage. I just think there is a reasonable middle ground her somewhere, that in the long run doesn't lead to a hardship on business, employees, or consumers.

(07-26-2015 04:25 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 02:17 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:53 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:50 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:36 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I thought this was interesting.


The CBO estimated in February 2014 that raising the minimum wage to $10.10 and indexing it to inflation would improve income inequality. Families with income more than 6 times the poverty threshold (for a family of four that would be those making over $145,500 a year) would see their incomes fall (due in part to their business profits declining with higher employee costs), while families with incomes below that threshold (most families) would rise.

]We have more unskilled labor than there is demand for it.

When you have too much of something that not enough people are buying....the solution is NOT to raise the price and import even more of it from Mexico.

Think about that. It's insane.

Then why are there so many undocumented immigrants in the country?

According to your own numbers, apparently half of them are here receiving free Obamacare.

Nowhere has anyone said that. Gosh you get confused so often. Undocumented immigrants by law can't get health insurance tax credits or even buy health insurance on one of the exchanges. They can't get medicaid, snap or anything else either.

You must be misunderstanding the estimates that about 6.5 million of them are included in the 33 million people in the country without health insurance. Thus it appears that maybe, roughly 4.5 million undocumented immigrants have insurance. Not that they got it from the ACA exchanges (remember they can't by law) or just got it, but that they have insurance.

Really?

http://www.newsmax.com/US/Obamacare-heal...id/596383/

(07-26-2015 04:42 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 01:05 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:53 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:50 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:36 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I thought this was interesting.


The CBO estimated in February 2014 that raising the minimum wage to $10.10 and indexing it to inflation would improve income inequality. Families with income more than 6 times the poverty threshold (for a family of four that would be those making over $145,500 a year) would see their incomes fall (due in part to their business profits declining with higher employee costs), while families with incomes below that threshold (most families) would rise.

We have more unskilled labor than there is demand for it.

When you have too much of something that not enough people are buying....the solution is NOT to raise the price and import even more of it from Mexico.

Think about that. It's insane.

Then why are there so many undocumented immigrants in the country?

You are missing the point.

If there were a shortage of unskilled labor, then the price would naturally rise as employers tried to compete for workers. Workers would have leverage.

Who do you think wants a surplus of unskilled labor? Corporations, US Chamber of Commerce, politicians who want people dependent on their patronage, and dumb bleeding hearts.

This is real simple. Arbitrarily raising the price of unneeded unskilled labor....while importing even more of it...is a recipe for trouble....not higher standards of living.

All good points but I wouldn't think a reasonable increase in the minimum wage, that reflects increases in the cost of living would actually be arbitrary would it? After all we are just taking about a minimum. It just makes sense to me that an adult with a child and working at minimum wage shouldn't have to rely on snap and the food bank to make ends meet.

You know buying a fast food hamburger, fries, and a coke for $3.21 is a good indication that prices are artificially low.

Let me be clear, I'm not advocating for a $15 minimum wage. I just think there is a reasonable middle ground her somewhere, that in the long run doesn't lead to a hardship on business, employees, or consumers.

Arbitrary means "by whim" rather than allowing the market to set the price based on supply and demand.

(07-26-2015 02:05 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(07-22-2015 06:53 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  Seattle is raising the minimum wage, as you suggest. Employees are now reducing their hours to keep their income the same, that way they can keep their government subsidies for food, rent, and child care.

Good for them. That gives them more time to attend protests for the $25 minimum wage.

Or spend more time with their families. Of course, family values isn't as important to the right wing as profits.

(07-26-2015 04:54 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 02:05 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(07-22-2015 06:53 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  Seattle is raising the minimum wage, as you suggest. Employees are now reducing their hours to keep their income the same, that way they can keep their government subsidies for food, rent, and child care.

Good for them. That gives them more time to attend protests for the $25 minimum wage.

Or spend more time with their families. Of course, family values isn't as important to the right wing as profits.

Right wing families dont have the consistent issue of one of the parents of a child being absent for most of the child's life.

Stir that pot harder.....

(07-26-2015 04:51 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 04:25 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 02:17 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:53 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:50 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  ]We have more unskilled labor than there is demand for it.

When you have too much of something that not enough people are buying....the solution is NOT to raise the price and import even more of it from Mexico.

Think about that. It's insane.

Then why are there so many undocumented immigrants in the country?

According to your own numbers, apparently half of them are here receiving free Obamacare.

Nowhere has anyone said that. Gosh you get confused so often. Undocumented immigrants by law can't get health insurance tax credits or even buy health insurance on one of the exchanges. They can't get medicaid, snap or anything else either.

You must be misunderstanding the estimates that about 6.5 million of them are included in the 33 million people in the country without health insurance. Thus it appears that maybe, roughly 4.5 million undocumented immigrants have insurance. Not that they got it from the ACA exchanges (remember they can't by law) or just got it, but that they have insurance.

Really?

http://www.newsmax.com/US/Obamacare-heal...id/596383/

I won't go so far as to say there are no illegals on welfare or enrolled in Obamacare because I know there are it looks to me that they seem to be weeding them out. Which is what needs to be done. If they are caught, fine them for monies lost and deport them. Simple solution.

(07-26-2015 04:53 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 04:42 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 01:05 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:53 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:50 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  We have more unskilled labor than there is demand for it.

When you have too much of something that not enough people are buying....the solution is NOT to raise the price and import even more of it from Mexico.

Think about that. It's insane.

Then why are there so many undocumented immigrants in the country?

You are missing the point.

If there were a shortage of unskilled labor, then the price would naturally rise as employers tried to compete for workers. Workers would have leverage.

Who do you think wants a surplus of unskilled labor? Corporations, US Chamber of Commerce, politicians who want people dependent on their patronage, and dumb bleeding hearts.

This is real simple. Arbitrarily raising the price of unneeded unskilled labor....while importing even more of it...is a recipe for trouble....not higher standards of living.

All good points but I wouldn't think a reasonable increase in the minimum wage, that reflects increases in the cost of living would actually be arbitrary would it? After all we are just taking about a minimum. It just makes sense to me that an adult with a child and working at minimum wage shouldn't have to rely on snap and the food bank to make ends meet.

You know buying a fast food hamburger, fries, and a coke for $3.21 is a good indication that prices are artificially low.

Let me be clear, I'm not advocating for a $15 minimum wage. I just think there is a reasonable middle ground her somewhere, that in the long run doesn't lead to a hardship on business, employees, or consumers.

Arbitrary means "by whim" rather than allowing the market to set the price based on supply and demand.

The government currently sets a minimum wage so if they increase it based on evidence then it wouldn't by definition be on a whim, thus not arbitrary. But we are getting into the weeds here.

(07-26-2015 05:00 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 04:54 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 02:05 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(07-22-2015 06:53 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  Seattle is raising the minimum wage, as you suggest. Employees are now reducing their hours to keep their income the same, that way they can keep their government subsidies for food, rent, and child care.

Good for them. That gives them more time to attend protests for the $25 minimum wage.

Or spend more time with their families. Of course, family values isn't as important to the right wing as profits.

Right wing families dont have the consistent issue of one of the parents of a child being absent for most of the child's life.

Stir that pot harder.....

I had no idea that political positions was a determining factor in out of wedlock births, child abandonment and divorce?

(07-26-2015 12:50 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:36 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-25-2015 11:50 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-25-2015 11:24 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  How many of these piss-poor social experiments have to fail before liberals realize you cant just hand someone something, it has to be earned.

Liberal politicians know damn well how this works. They know that they've raised minimum wage over and over for decades and the people earning it are worse off than they were then.

But its a cheap ploy to trot out before every election cycle...a bribe to low information voters with something that somebody else has to pay for.

They are not dumb, but their bleeding heart followers lap that stuff up and have the memory of gnats.

I thought this was interesting.


The CBO estimated in February 2014 that raising the minimum wage to $10.10 and indexing it to inflation would improve income inequality. Families with income more than 6 times the poverty threshold (for a family of four that would be those making over $145,500 a year) would see their incomes fall (due in part to their business profits declining with higher employee costs), while families with incomes below that threshold (most families) would rise.

We have more unskilled labor than there is demand for it.

When you have too much of something that not enough people are buying....the solution is NOT to raise the price and import even more of it from Mexico.

Think about that. It's insane.

no bout adout it <sic>

talk about fleas having an incentive to flee....

insane is being kind.....criminally negligent comes to my mind when I view our leadershite....

way too many people w/o a decent skill set....and we allow more to cross and let them pump out puppies at will....that's a solid plan....

it's easily the damnedest shite I've seen in my 50 yrs on this planet....

I knew better than to have a child.....that guilt will burn much worse than anything hades can come with....

(07-26-2015 12:53 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:50 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 12:36 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-25-2015 11:50 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-25-2015 11:24 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  How many of these piss-poor social experiments have to fail before liberals realize you cant just hand someone something, it has to be earned.

Liberal politicians know damn well how this works. They know that they've raised minimum wage over and over for decades and the people earning it are worse off than they were then.

But its a cheap ploy to trot out before every election cycle...a bribe to low information voters with something that somebody else has to pay for.

They are not dumb, but their bleeding heart followers lap that stuff up and have the memory of gnats.

I thought this was interesting.


The CBO estimated in February 2014 that raising the minimum wage to $10.10 and indexing it to inflation would improve income inequality. Families with income more than 6 times the poverty threshold (for a family of four that would be those making over $145,500 a year) would see their incomes fall (due in part to their business profits declining with higher employee costs), while families with incomes below that threshold (most families) would rise.

We have more unskilled labor than there is demand for it.

When you have too much of something that not enough people are buying....the solution is NOT to raise the price and import even more of it from Mexico.

Think about that. It's insane.

Then why are there so many undocumented immigrants in the country?

b/c they can set up camp in a shithole dwelling at 20 per....

have you ever been to mexico? and I ain't talking about cancun or cabo....

(07-26-2015 05:00 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 04:54 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 02:05 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(07-22-2015 06:53 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  Seattle is raising the minimum wage, as you suggest. Employees are now reducing their hours to keep their income the same, that way they can keep their government subsidies for food, rent, and child care.

Good for them. That gives them more time to attend protests for the $25 minimum wage.

Or spend more time with their families. Of course, family values isn't as important to the right wing as profits.

Right wing families dont have the consistent issue of one of the parents of a child being absent for most of the child's life.

Stir that pot harder.....

Do you have facts to back that up?

(07-26-2015 05:06 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  The government currently sets a minimum wage so if they increase it based on evidence then it wouldn't by definition be on a whim, thus not arbitrary. But we are getting into the weeds here.

No, they increase it based on politics, which is by definition arbitrary.

A truly evidence-based minimum wage would be set at the market equilibrium point. As such, it would have minimal economic impact. But that wouldn't buy any votes, so politics is not going to allow that.

(07-26-2015 05:59 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 05:06 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  The government currently sets a minimum wage so if they increase it based on evidence then it wouldn't by definition be on a whim, thus not arbitrary. But we are getting into the weeds here.

No, they increase it based on politics, which is by definition arbitrary.

A truly evidence-based minimum wage would be set at the market equilibrium point. As such, it would have minimal economic impact. But that wouldn't buy any votes, so politics is not going to allow that.

I said that they currently set the minimum wage, not what they based it on. I suggested that IF they increased it based on evidence it wouldn't be arbitrary. I'm advocating for an evidence-based minimum wage. If congress could show a little courage and pass a law that raises it and sets up a mechanism for increases as needed going forward that would be a major accomplishment.

(07-26-2015 05:54 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 05:00 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 04:54 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 02:05 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(07-22-2015 06:53 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  Seattle is raising the minimum wage, as you suggest. Employees are now reducing their hours to keep their income the same, that way they can keep their government subsidies for food, rent, and child care.

Good for them. That gives them more time to attend protests for the $25 minimum wage.

Or spend more time with their families. Of course, family values isn't as important to the right wing as profits.

Right wing families dont have the consistent issue of one of the parents of a child being absent for most of the child's life.

Stir that pot harder.....

Do you have facts to back that up?

I can back my statement up much easier than you can back yours up, so I dont think you want to go down that road.

(07-26-2015 06:10 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 05:59 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 05:06 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  The government currently sets a minimum wage so if they increase it based on evidence then it wouldn't by definition be on a whim, thus not arbitrary. But we are getting into the weeds here.

No, they increase it based on politics, which is by definition arbitrary.

A truly evidence-based minimum wage would be set at the market equilibrium point. As such, it would have minimal economic impact. But that wouldn't buy any votes, so politics is not going to allow that.

I said that they currently set the minimum wage, not what they based it on. I suggested that IF they increased it based on evidence it wouldn't be arbitrary. I'm advocating for an evidence-based minimum wage. If congress could show a little courage and pass a law that raises it and sets up a mechanism for increases as needed going forward that would be a major accomplishment.

Ideally, it would also result in a minimum wage which is regionally based on the cost of living.

Bernie Sanders and those that support his polices are Socialist scum. Yes...I said it.

(07-26-2015 06:10 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 05:59 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 05:06 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  The government currently sets a minimum wage so if they increase it based on evidence then it wouldn't by definition be on a whim, thus not arbitrary. But we are getting into the weeds here.

No, they increase it based on politics, which is by definition arbitrary.
A truly evidence-based minimum wage would be set at the market equilibrium point. As such, it would have minimal economic impact. But that wouldn't buy any votes, so politics is not going to allow that.

I said that they currently set the minimum wage, not what they based it on. I suggested that IF they increased it based on evidence it wouldn't be arbitrary. I'm advocating for an evidence-based minimum wage. If congress could show a little courage and pass a law that raises it and sets up a mechanism for increases as needed going forward that would be a major accomplishment.

I'd be in favor of evidence-based setting, if all the evidence is considered. That means considering the economic value of the production of the expected minimum wage earners, the cost of alternatives (like fast food kiosks), the impact on unemployment, the impact on employers, and other similar factors. I apologize if I am in error here, but my guess is that your idea of evidence-based setting is oh well, inflation went up, so we need to increase the minimum wage.

Considering part, but not all, of the evidence is politically-based setting and is both arbitrary and capricious.

(07-26-2015 08:33 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Bernie Sanders and those that support his polices are Socialist scum. Yes...I said it.

Well, Libertarians and those that support them are Corporatist scum. Yes...I said it.

(07-26-2015 09:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 06:10 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 05:59 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-26-2015 05:06 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  The government currently sets a minimum wage so if they increase it based on evidence then it wouldn't by definition be on a whim, thus not arbitrary. But we are getting into the weeds here.

No, they increase it based on politics, which is by definition arbitrary.
A truly evidence-based minimum wage would be set at the market equilibrium point. As such, it would have minimal economic impact. But that wouldn't buy any votes, so politics is not going to allow that.

I said that they currently set the minimum wage, not what they based it on. I suggested that IF they increased it based on evidence it wouldn't be arbitrary. I'm advocating for an evidence-based minimum wage. If congress could show a little courage and pass a law that raises it and sets up a mechanism for increases as needed going forward that would be a major accomplishment.

I'd be in favor of evidence-based setting, if all the evidence is considered. That means considering the economic value of the production of the expected minimum wage earners, the cost of alternatives (like fast food kiosks), the impact on unemployment, the impact on employers, and other similar factors. I apologize if I am in error here, but my guess is that your idea of evidence-based setting is oh well, inflation went up, so we need to increase the minimum wage.

Considering part, but not all, of the evidence is politically-based setting and is both arbitrary and capricious.

I would agree with all evidence being considered.