(06-30-2015 12:33 AM)UCF08 Wrote: (06-29-2015 09:32 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: (06-29-2015 09:11 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: (06-29-2015 12:39 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote: But most "Libertarians" voted for 100% GOP anti-Gay candidates while 'opposing the GOP's war on Gay people'. But they really didn't oppose it, because their votes had the same impact as a Pat Robertson voter...to pack the legislatures with people who wanted to harm us.
And the "Libertarian" response to this was 'just move' or 'the market will take care of it - eventually'. Well we got tired of moving and waiting for the market to take care of it.
This is really not directed at you GTS, but more broadly at the whole libertarian movement.
Libertarians put the wallet first -- me included. Not being able to marry your significant other because of gender? That sucks. But it is far better than a currency crisis or hyperinflation or skyrocketing taxes or high tariffs/"managed trade" or the "entitlement" system collapsing or regulating businesses to death to where the only things that can compete are megacorps with lobbyists or transnationals.
If I were gay .... I could still be with my partner. The only hitch would be the religious/personal significance and insurance/govt benefits. But if these morons don't fix entitlements so they collapse and take the dollar itself with it ... then that is some next level SHTF stuff there that doesn't just suck way more ... it sucks way more FOR EVERYBODY (except the hyper rich who can and do have multiple citizens and international accounts).
I take exception with one of Toms assertions. I dispute his claim that "most" Libertarians voted 100% for GOP anti gay candidates. That is a baseless assertion and if that is the type of hyperbole that the LGBT community is engaging in?..it pisses me off. I guess Tom thinks our GOP governor in NC is anti gay? Never mind he vetoed the bill to allow magistrates to decline to do their duty base on religion. Im proud actually that I voted for him now. Be very careful where you tread Tom. Libertarians are the MOST fervent supporters of your personal freedom. They are the last group you need to alienate with foolish, unfounded accusations.
While his statement was absolute hyperbole, there is a lack of urgency from libertarian-leaning voters when it comes to particular personal freedoms, and those particular freedoms tend to be traditionally liberal ones. It's why republicans can still get elected straddling both lines.
At the end of the day its about results. And I'm sorry, the result of most "libertarian" voters is that LGBT equality under the law is harmed.
Saying that you 'support Gay rights and equal treatment under the law' rings hollow if you continue to consistently vote for candidates that do precisely the opposite.
That kind of 'support' isn't really that useful from a practical perspective. Sure, we're less upset with those that support Gay rights and equality in abstract terms...but we're looking for practical solutions. Our community is not some plaything to conduct experiments in economic theory with(such as 'hey - lets let one area of the country discriminate against LGBT persons for 40 years and see if the non-discriminatory area does better economically').
And then there's a major area of contention in that many Libertarians actively oppose measures, deemed critically important for our community, to make LGBT equality possible, such as non-discrimination ordinances. The attitude from the Libertarian community appears to be "just move" or "wait 100 years for society to come around". To us, it sounds cynical. And that they are worrying about abstract concepts at the cost of concrete issues that impacts our lives in very significant ways.
And then there's the issue of the GOP/Libertarian revolving door. Many Libertarian politicians will eventually move to the GOP and then immediately go full social conservative (see Rand Paul). But they almost never get called out on it by the Libertarians when they do so.
So to the Libertarians, understand that if given the choice of equality now using the courts or bigger government or waiting 100 years or telling our people to move - that we're going to vote for bigger and more government every time. If that means voting for Sheila Jackson Lee...we'll hold our nose and vote for her. If it means going to the courts and creating precedents that expand the state...so be it. The way you stop us from doing what we do...is to solve the problems that we face in a way that doesn't require us to consistently 'go nuclear' in order to do so.
You guys have an agenda. One in which our issues have very little real importance. We have an agenda too. One in which abstract economic issues have very little real importance. Its okay if we disagree. And I don't hate you guys. But you guys really haven't shown much worth as an ally.
For Libertarians and 'supportive' Republicans. I'm glad you don't want to vote for social conservatives...But understand that we note that you guys almost always end up doing precisely that. Don't begruge us when we do what we have to do because the candidates you support fail to solve the real and concrete problems our community faces.