The basketball first mentality is what is going to kill basketball

(03-23-2015 11:58 AM)macphil30 Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 11:42 AM)Ramen_Tiger Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 11:39 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 11:36 AM)Merrick Wrote:  You missed my point, and you're trying to make this about CJP.

It's NOT. It's about conference affiliation, TV dollars, and the changing landscape.

Example: Compare Rutgers and Cincinnati. Which sports programs have been the best over the last 10 years? Cincy hands down. Not even close. But who got invited to the BiG? RUTGERS. Because they brought eyeballs which affects TV dollars which drove their conference affiliation.

I know people aren't happy with CJP right now; but not EVERY post and EVERY thing has to do with the performance of his teams....stop making it seem that way.

Wichita St seems to have no problem. They just destroyed their instate juggernaut. Everything is coach related at this point in time. Especially with the deck being stacked against us.

OMG let it go for one day

But it's true.

I'm not EVER going to let it go unless :

A. He stops underachieving with the talent he has

B. He's gone


Deal with it

(03-23-2015 12:03 PM)George CantStandYa Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 11:47 AM)tiger-viper Wrote:  the money is there to make a change in basketball, and folks are willing to pony up. bowen needs to realize basketball boosters aren't going to drop a dime on football, so he might as well take their money and use it find us a good coach.

The Boosters are well aware of what is happening. We have been down the basketball road, and got left at the alter. Not going to make the same mistake twice. A lot of things matter to other conferences. Basketball is not one of them.

i'm well aware that football catalyst for p5 inclusion. i'm saying we need to do both. improve football and sustain basketball. that's the way to do it. it was a mistake to let football slide and invest in basketball, but it will be a mistake to do the exact opposite. there must be sustained commitment to both.

Merrick's initial post is pretty accurate. The P5 schools are allocating more money to basketball. The gap in payouts is widening between the P5 conferences and the outsiders. The rich are getting richer. So, schools like Ole Miss and Auburn are building new facilities. And as I type this, I hear that Alabama is looking to offer Gregg Marshall $3M/year.

In reality, I think basketball will still be an afterthought for many of these schools. But, more funding is available now and more is being allocated to basketball.

(03-23-2015 12:11 PM)tiger-viper Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 12:03 PM)George CantStandYa Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 11:47 AM)tiger-viper Wrote:  the money is there to make a change in basketball, and folks are willing to pony up. bowen needs to realize basketball boosters aren't going to drop a dime on football, so he might as well take their money and use it find us a good coach.

The Boosters are well aware of what is happening. We have been down the basketball road, and got left at the alter. Not going to make the same mistake twice. A lot of things matter to other conferences. Basketball is not one of them.

i'm well aware that football catalyst for p5 inclusion. i'm saying we need to do both. improve football and sustain basketball. that's the way to do it. it was a mistake to let football slide and invest in basketball, but it will be a mistake to do the exact opposite. there must be sustained commitment to both.

Basketball is petty in the grand scheme in realignment for the conference we are trying to join. People know where Memphis basketball stands. You are wrong once again.

(03-23-2015 11:28 AM)Merrick Wrote:  This post is STR in this vein; I believe that the schools commonly known as P5 are increasingly attempting to separate themselves from the remaining D1 schools in basketball and other sports.

I've mentioned here before that the influx of cash - driven primarily by TV$ / football - will have an impact on other sports as well.

Thus, the old axiom of "$ only pertains to football" is no longer valid. Football drives the dollars bus, yes....but when those dollars are received schools are also spending in other sports as well.

Why? Because
- they can, and
- they need to improve product in other sports to make their respective Sports Networks more viable via additional programming.

While no coaching hire is a Guaranteed Success, look at some of the names the $EC has hired in the last ~5 years:

- Cal at Ken$ucky
- Mike Anderson at Arkansas
- Frank Martin at USC
- Pearl at Auburn
- Howland (?) at Mississippi St.

Sure, there are other hirings that are still in question, Donnie at TN, Johnny Jones at LSU (actually I think he's gonna be REAL good there).

Overall, I think with E$PiN driving the $$$ bus, and giving $EC Major Props during hoops broadcasts for "how tough their conference is" (how many times did announcers say this?) there will be increasing pressure for other schools to up their ante on hiring good coaches from a salary perspective.

Long-story-short: the P5 schools are ramping things up so that G5 schools will have a difficult time keeping up, even in non-football sports. They'll be able to offer a staff at least $1M more annually than a Wichita State, or Georgetown, or MEMPHIS can pay. In addition to salaries, you'll see state-of-the-art arenas, practice facilities, recruiting tools, etc.

I'd like to see some numbers on the money being invested by P5 schools in basketball facilities, staffing, etc. outside of the traditional P5 basketball powerhouses (e.g. KY, UCLA, NC, etc.). I'm not saying it is not happening. I just have my doubts.

Not all P5 schools are the same in terms of revenue and influence. Sure, they all generally eat equally at the same table when it comes to television money, but alumni support for say OSU is probably light years different from Purdue. Same thing goes for Duke and NC State, I'd imagine.

I think you answered your own question when you stated ""football drives the dollars bus." Why would you invest in a sport that doesn't bring you more money than say football. "Just because you can" is an assumption rather than a fact. It doesn't make economic sense to invest more in something than you will get back in return. Smarter to invest in the better deal, which is football.

Also, keep in mind that the "nut" for football should be bigger than for basketball. You have more players, thus you need more staff. You have more equipment costs, more travel costs, bigger recruiting budget, etc., etc. Because of the different team make-ups, it is easier to get a game-changing player or players in basketball than football. Just look at Butler from a few years ago.

Perhaps more importantly, the biggest moneymaker in college basketball is the NCAA tournament, which if I understand correctly, the TV rights are owned by the NCAA, and not the individual conferences. I also understand that the vast majority of the NCAA's operating budget is derived from March Madness. If the P5 conferences decide to break away fully from the NCAA and take the tournament with them, then you should start to worry.

No, I'm not that concerned about P5 schools distancing themselves in basketball. The main thing I'd consider that would support your point would be P5 schools upping the antes on HC salaries. That would be a better indicator of the economics supporting your argument.

(03-23-2015 11:28 AM)Merrick Wrote:  This post is STR in this vein; I believe that the schools commonly known as P5 are increasingly attempting to separate themselves from the remaining D1 schools in basketball and other sports.

I've mentioned here before that the influx of cash - driven primarily by TV$ / football - will have an impact on other sports as well.

Thus, the old axiom of "$ only pertains to football" is no longer valid. Football drives the dollars bus, yes....but when those dollars are received schools are also spending in other sports as well.

Why? Because
- they can, and
- they need to improve product in other sports to make their respective Sports Networks more viable via additional programming.

While no coaching hire is a Guaranteed Success, look at some of the names the $EC has hired in the last ~5 years:

- Cal at Ken$ucky
- Mike Anderson at Arkansas
- Frank Martin at USC
- Pearl at Auburn
- Howland (?) at Mississippi St.

Sure, there are other hirings that are still in question, Donnie at TN, Johnny Jones at LSU (actually I think he's gonna be REAL good there).

Overall, I think with E$PiN driving the $$$ bus, and giving $EC Major Props during hoops broadcasts for "how tough their conference is" (how many times did announcers say this?) there will be increasing pressure for other schools to up their ante on hiring good coaches from a salary perspective.

Long-story-short: the P5 schools are ramping things up so that G5 schools will have a difficult time keeping up, even in non-football sports. They'll be able to offer a staff at least $1M more annually than a Wichita State, or Georgetown, or MEMPHIS can pay. In addition to salaries, you'll see state-of-the-art arenas, practice facilities, recruiting tools, etc.

Memphis must do whatever it takes to get in the B12. (Capt. Obvious statement, I know...) It's not just about the best home for basketball, or keeping a great football coach, or recruiting on a reasonable playing field.....it's about survival as a Major player in collegiate sports, period.

Lastly, and this will be difficult for some (including me!) we have to be more supportive of our conference mates. The solidarity shown in the $EC (one of Slive's greatest achievements, BTW) is outstanding. The BiG is similiar in that regard. They support conference mates when their own team isn't playing. (EX: Darn near every BiG fan was pulling for tOSU in the football playoff, because a win for tOSU was a win for the Conference...everyone except Michigan fans, I don't think they could stomach supporting tOSU in anything.)

So when WVU plays in the Liberty Bowl against an $EC school, we need to show up and cheer for WVU...let the B12 see the "Memphis love" and how much more would occur if we were actually a member.
OR, when SUM is playing UCONN, don't watch Florida vs. Ken$ucky.

Why watch or cheer for an $EC school that only seeks to rob us of talent and opportunity???

Again, sorry for the L-O-N-G post...just wanted to get my thoughts out there.

Your thoughts?

yep. Gotta get to the Big 12...

that's why I find it silly when people complain about diverting money from hoops to football.

football drives the bus, folks...and the powers that be in the Big 12 know all about our hoops program...we need to focus on football, and keeping our momentum going forward.

building that IPF, winning football games, and paying our football coaches MUST be the priority...

Yep.

Need to cut that basketball salary.

Another great point to discuss. But it was quickly brought back to: Fire CJP vs CJP for Pres

(03-23-2015 12:51 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  Yep.

Need to cut that basketball salary.

why? that money comes from the boosters...who are you to tell private citizens what to do with their money?

(03-23-2015 12:54 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 12:51 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  Yep.

Need to cut that basketball salary.

why? that money comes from the boosters...who are you to tell private citizens what to do with their money?

You don't think any of these boosters have changed where there money is diverted for athletics? In case you don't know, the answer is yes.

If it's ALL about football, then ALL hands should be on deck, no?

(03-23-2015 12:57 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 12:54 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 12:51 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  Yep.

Need to cut that basketball salary.

why? that money comes from the boosters...who are you to tell private citizens what to do with their money?

You don't think any of these boosters have changed where there money is diverted for athletics? In case you don't know, the answer is yes.

If it's ALL about football, then ALL hands should be on deck, no?

folks can do what they like with their money...they made the decision to use that money to offer Pastner a contract...and a contract is a contract.

http://www.hark.com/clips/tyfylltbqs-don...r-mistakes

(03-23-2015 01:00 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 12:57 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 12:54 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 12:51 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  Yep.

Need to cut that basketball salary.

why? that money comes from the boosters...who are you to tell private citizens what to do with their money?

You don't think any of these boosters have changed where there money is diverted for athletics? In case you don't know, the answer is yes.

If it's ALL about football, then ALL hands should be on deck, no?

folks can do what they like with their money...they made the decision to use that money to offer Pastner a contract...and a contract is a contract.

http://www.hark.com/clips/tyfylltbqs-don...r-mistakes

So, you're saying the big money folks don't even consider football to be ALL it is about, but the common fans should?

(03-23-2015 01:01 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 01:00 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 12:57 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 12:54 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 12:51 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  Yep.

Need to cut that basketball salary.

why? that money comes from the boosters...who are you to tell private citizens what to do with their money?

You don't think any of these boosters have changed where there money is diverted for athletics? In case you don't know, the answer is yes.

If it's ALL about football, then ALL hands should be on deck, no?

folks can do what they like with their money...they made the decision to use that money to offer Pastner a contract...and a contract is a contract.

http://www.hark.com/clips/tyfylltbqs-don...r-mistakes

So, you're saying the big money folks don't even consider football to be ALL it is about, but the common fans should?

quote where I said any of that...

They are using the network money, very few mens hoops programs in the SEC are self sufficient , Arkansas and Kentucky comes to mind as true money makers. Florida maybe turns a good profit if others do, it ain't by much.

(03-23-2015 01:03 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 01:01 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 01:00 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 12:57 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 12:54 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  why? that money comes from the boosters...who are you to tell private citizens what to do with their money?

You don't think any of these boosters have changed where there money is diverted for athletics? In case you don't know, the answer is yes.

If it's ALL about football, then ALL hands should be on deck, no?

folks can do what they like with their money...they made the decision to use that money to offer Pastner a contract...and a contract is a contract.

http://www.hark.com/clips/tyfylltbqs-don...r-mistakes

So, you're saying the big money folks don't even consider football to be ALL it is about, but the common fans should?

quote where I said any of that...

He likes to put words in people's mouths. He gets off on it.

(03-23-2015 01:03 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  quote where I said any of that...

that's why I find it silly when people complain about diverting money from hoops to football.

football drives the bus, folks...and the powers that be in the Big 12 know all about our hoops program...we need to focus on football, and keeping our momentum going forward.

building that IPF, winning football games, and paying our football coaches MUST be the priority...

And a breath later you say it doesn't matter how big money spends their money and if they want to pay a basketball coach millions, it's up to them.

So, which is it - all hands on deck for football OR pay absurd money to basketball?

Can't have it both ways, amigo.

(03-23-2015 11:59 AM)tiger-viper Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 11:53 AM)Willie Becton Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 11:33 AM)tiger-viper Wrote:  part of this is ensuring our basketball program doesn't go down the crapper. replacing pastner with a quality coach should be a high priority.

We already have a quality head coach.

This might help you (you're welcome in advance):
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/ba...sheet.html

yes, we do. his name is justin fuente. i'm talking about a quality basketball coach.

Willie, you just got,

I see nothing there that discusses "big money" or "common fans" as you opine in your posts.

you're just making up stuff...

I also see nothing there remotely close to saying our boosters "don't even consider football"

even more of your making stuff up...

I mean exactly what I said...and you know what happens when Miserables start to ASSume

(03-23-2015 01:08 PM)Ramen_Tiger Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 01:03 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 01:01 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 01:00 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(03-23-2015 12:57 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  You don't think any of these boosters have changed where there money is diverted for athletics? In case you don't know, the answer is yes.

If it's ALL about football, then ALL hands should be on deck, no?

folks can do what they like with their money...they made the decision to use that money to offer Pastner a contract...and a contract is a contract.

http://www.hark.com/clips/tyfylltbqs-don...r-mistakes

So, you're saying the big money folks don't even consider football to be ALL it is about, but the common fans should?

quote where I said any of that...

He likes to put words in people's mouths. He gets off on it.

where's oldmangrizz when you need him?