(11-18-2014 04:30 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 04:03 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 01:48 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 12:45 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 12:34 PM)JMU_Newbill Wrote:  So do you think if Landers had been playing in a more-friendly offense, he could put up the passing numbers Lee has this year?

Yes , but they ran the ball so well ( MM style ) they wouldnt be throwing the ball this much.

Not a knock on Lee, he should have been on the national radar , they bascially ignored his numbers. Lee is a top five athlete ever at JMU.

Come on now....I loved watching Landers play and it was a completely different style but you have to be kidding saying that Landers was a better passer than Lee. I seriously questioned MM's coaching at times but if he chose simply not to pass the freaking ball giving he had a better passer than Lee playing QB then MM was a freaking idiot and cost JMU at least 2 national championships. Now I don't think MM was that inept as a coach but to hear HotRod tell it MM must have been the best defense JMU ever faced.

Lmao , Landers rushed for 1700 yards and only lost to Duke his senior yr. Lee is still working on passing game , so saying Landers was better is not far fetched. And they both run the spread option. MM hated turnovers so we would throw ball when needed. Watch the tape

I don't need to watch the freaking tape --- Perhaps you should watch a little tape b/c as much as I appreciate everything that Landers did, he was no great passer. Lots of screens and dump-offs in that scheme. You go get some tape and watch Mike Cawley and Eriq Williams they were both probably better passers than Landers too.

I've watched every game that Landers played and he threw my brother a lot of footballs. He averaged 14 and 16 yards per catch during his years with Landers. Landers just didnt have to pass the ball as much as Lee does. I hope we figure out a way to garner a consistent running game , Lee shouldnt have the pressure on him to make play after play with his arm.

(11-18-2014 04:51 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 04:30 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 04:03 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 01:48 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 12:45 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  Yes , but they ran the ball so well ( MM style ) they wouldnt be throwing the ball this much.

Not a knock on Lee, he should have been on the national radar , they bascially ignored his numbers. Lee is a top five athlete ever at JMU.

Come on now....I loved watching Landers play and it was a completely different style but you have to be kidding saying that Landers was a better passer than Lee. I seriously questioned MM's coaching at times but if he chose simply not to pass the freaking ball giving he had a better passer than Lee playing QB then MM was a freaking idiot and cost JMU at least 2 national championships. Now I don't think MM was that inept as a coach but to hear HotRod tell it MM must have been the best defense JMU ever faced.

Lmao , Landers rushed for 1700 yards and only lost to Duke his senior yr. Lee is still working on passing game , so saying Landers was better is not far fetched. And they both run the spread option. MM hated turnovers so we would throw ball when needed. Watch the tape

I don't need to watch the freaking tape --- Perhaps you should watch a little tape b/c as much as I appreciate everything that Landers did, he was no great passer. Lots of screens and dump-offs in that scheme. You go get some tape and watch Mike Cawley and Eriq Williams they were both probably better passers than Landers too.

I've watched every game that Landers played and he threw my brother a lot of footballs. He averaged 14 and 16 yards per catch during his years with Landers. Landers just didnt have to pass the ball as much as Lee does. I hope we figure out a way to garner a consistent running game , Lee shouldnt have the pressure on him to make play after play with his arm.

You like calls to watch the tape -- then take your own advice. Go watch some Eriq Williams, Mike Cawley, Justin Rascati tapes ---- they could sling it. Along with Vad they can all throw it better than Landers. I am not trying to diminish what Landers could do very well (Tebow before Tebow with a FB playing QB) and that was lead a very conservative offense and pound the football. I have seen them all play over the years so I will pass on the tape --- I actually saw it first hand.

(11-18-2014 04:49 PM)JMUPride Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 04:30 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  You go get some tape and watch Mike Cawley and Eriq Williams they were both probably better passers than Landers too.

absolutely... Landers probably wasn't even a top 5 all-time "passer" at JMU

He was Tebowesque... a solid FB-built running QB with enough passing skill to keep defenses honest

I'm not speaking on numbers , if you watch them throw and their accuracy Landers has a better arm.

to each their own

If I had to rank the top 5 PASSERS at JMU I'd go...

1a. Maddox
1b. Cawley
3. Rascati
4. Lee
5. Williams

Landers probably 6... Matt LeZotte 7? Lee has a solid chance of moving up in my eyes

Landers was incredibly efficient but I think that was due to his running ability keeping the defenses honest... I don't remember him having enough touch to complete many longballs unlike the guys I like better

(11-18-2014 04:58 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 04:51 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 04:30 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 04:03 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 01:48 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  Come on now....I loved watching Landers play and it was a completely different style but you have to be kidding saying that Landers was a better passer than Lee. I seriously questioned MM's coaching at times but if he chose simply not to pass the freaking ball giving he had a better passer than Lee playing QB then MM was a freaking idiot and cost JMU at least 2 national championships. Now I don't think MM was that inept as a coach but to hear HotRod tell it MM must have been the best defense JMU ever faced.

Lmao , Landers rushed for 1700 yards and only lost to Duke his senior yr. Lee is still working on passing game , so saying Landers was better is not far fetched. And they both run the spread option. MM hated turnovers so we would throw ball when needed. Watch the tape

I don't need to watch the freaking tape --- Perhaps you should watch a little tape b/c as much as I appreciate everything that Landers did, he was no great passer. Lots of screens and dump-offs in that scheme. You go get some tape and watch Mike Cawley and Eriq Williams they were both probably better passers than Landers too.

I've watched every game that Landers played and he threw my brother a lot of footballs. He averaged 14 and 16 yards per catch during his years with Landers. Landers just didnt have to pass the ball as much as Lee does. I hope we figure out a way to garner a consistent running game , Lee shouldnt have the pressure on him to make play after play with his arm.

You like calls to watch the tape -- then take your own advice. Go watch some Eriq Williams, Mike Cawley, Justin Rascati tapes ---- they could sling it. Along with Vad they can all throw it better than Landers. I am not trying to diminish what Landers could do very well (Tebow before Tebow with a FB playing QB) and that was lead a very conservative offense and pound the football. I have seen them all play over the years so I will pass on the tape --- I actually saw it first hand.

We are speaking on Lee vs Landers , I have no need to watch Williams and Cawley. Landers was a Freshman when I was a senior , and I watched Lee most of this spring.
My opinion wont change until Lee gets consistently better mechanical wise .

(11-18-2014 05:04 PM)JMUPride Wrote:  to each their own

If I had to rank the top 5 PASSERS at JMU I'd go...

1a. Maddox
1b. Cawley
3. Rascati
4. Lee
5. Williams

Landers probably 6... Matt LeZotte 7? Lee has a solid chance of moving up in my eyes

Landers was incredibly efficient but I think that was due to his running ability keeping the defenses honest... I don't remember him having enough touch to complete many longballs unlike the guys I like better

I can go along with that ranking.....I think Lee may progress up another spot or two if he maintains his current level of play.

yet if I went top 5 "most valuable" QBs at JMU I'd go

1. Landers
2. Rascati
3. Lee
4. Cawley
5. Williams

edit: Maddox had an amazing arm, but just wasn't relied upon like the others above... and everyone above can run

(11-18-2014 05:07 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 04:58 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 04:51 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 04:30 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 04:03 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  Lmao , Landers rushed for 1700 yards and only lost to Duke his senior yr. Lee is still working on passing game , so saying Landers was better is not far fetched. And they both run the spread option. MM hated turnovers so we would throw ball when needed. Watch the tape

I don't need to watch the freaking tape --- Perhaps you should watch a little tape b/c as much as I appreciate everything that Landers did, he was no great passer. Lots of screens and dump-offs in that scheme. You go get some tape and watch Mike Cawley and Eriq Williams they were both probably better passers than Landers too.

I've watched every game that Landers played and he threw my brother a lot of footballs. He averaged 14 and 16 yards per catch during his years with Landers. Landers just didnt have to pass the ball as much as Lee does. I hope we figure out a way to garner a consistent running game , Lee shouldnt have the pressure on him to make play after play with his arm.

You like calls to watch the tape -- then take your own advice. Go watch some Eriq Williams, Mike Cawley, Justin Rascati tapes ---- they could sling it. Along with Vad they can all throw it better than Landers. I am not trying to diminish what Landers could do very well (Tebow before Tebow with a FB playing QB) and that was lead a very conservative offense and pound the football. I have seen them all play over the years so I will pass on the tape --- I actually saw it first hand.

We are speaking on Lee vs Landers , I have no need to watch Williams and Cawley. Landers was a Freshman when I was a senior , and I watched Lee most of this spring.
My opinion wont change until Lee gets consistently better mechanical wise .

Da*n well I would hate to see how efficient Lee would be if his mechanics did not SUCK! Perhaps EW and Drew M should consult our on-campus QB guru to fix Vad's mechanical issues. Have you offerred up your services to fix Vad to them yet? Go back and watch some tape of Landers he had a very slooooow and elongated release --- not the quick release you want in a QB but he was effective doing what he did.

(11-18-2014 05:13 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 05:07 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 04:58 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 04:51 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 04:30 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  I don't need to watch the freaking tape --- Perhaps you should watch a little tape b/c as much as I appreciate everything that Landers did, he was no great passer. Lots of screens and dump-offs in that scheme. You go get some tape and watch Mike Cawley and Eriq Williams they were both probably better passers than Landers too.

I've watched every game that Landers played and he threw my brother a lot of footballs. He averaged 14 and 16 yards per catch during his years with Landers. Landers just didnt have to pass the ball as much as Lee does. I hope we figure out a way to garner a consistent running game , Lee shouldnt have the pressure on him to make play after play with his arm.

You like calls to watch the tape -- then take your own advice. Go watch some Eriq Williams, Mike Cawley, Justin Rascati tapes ---- they could sling it. Along with Vad they can all throw it better than Landers. I am not trying to diminish what Landers could do very well (Tebow before Tebow with a FB playing QB) and that was lead a very conservative offense and pound the football. I have seen them all play over the years so I will pass on the tape --- I actually saw it first hand.

We are speaking on Lee vs Landers , I have no need to watch Williams and Cawley. Landers was a Freshman when I was a senior , and I watched Lee most of this spring.
My opinion wont change until Lee gets consistently better mechanical wise .

Da*n well I would hate to see how efficient Lee would be if his mechanics did not SUCK! Perhaps EW and Drew M should consult our on-campus QB guru to fix Vad's mechanical issues. Have you offerred up your services to fix Vad to them yet? Go back and watch some tape of Landers he had a very slooooow and elongated release --- not the quick release you want in a QB but he was effective doing what he did.

Sarcasm noted , but read what people were saying about Lee early in the season. Completion percentages 45% and under means he needed work.
Also Rascati had the same issue with a very long release , that kept him out of the NFL.

(11-18-2014 05:04 PM)JMUPride Wrote:  to each their own

If I had to rank the top 5 PASSERS at JMU I'd go...

1a. Maddox
1b. Cawley
3. Rascati
4. Lee
5. Williams

Landers probably 6... Matt LeZotte 7? Lee has a solid chance of moving up in my eyes

Landers was incredibly efficient but I think that was due to his running ability keeping the defenses honest... I don't remember him having enough touch to complete many longballs unlike the guys I like better

Many on here were saying that about Vad earlier this season. I agree with HotRod that Landers had a very good arm and could have developed as a passer as Vad has, but the scheme didn't call for passing enough to allow him to prove it.

you're absolutely right about Landers, but if we never see it, how are we supposed to know... I'm just going with what I've seen.

I probably have Maddox higher than most, but as a kid going to games I remember a few passes he made that just seemed godly... probably wasn't as good as I remember him, and the stats don't really support him being elite either. He was surrounded by some great talent in the late 90s (Payton, Brooks, Jones, Joyce) if I remember correctly).

(11-18-2014 05:30 PM)JMUPride Wrote:  you're absolutely right about Landers, but if we never see it, how are we supposed to know... I'm just going with what I've seen.

I probably have Maddox higher than most, but as a kid going to games I remember a few passes he made that just seemed godly... probably wasn't as good as I remember him, and the stats don't really support him being elite either. He was surrounded by some great talent in the late 90s (Payton, Brooks, Jones, Joyce) if I remember correctly).

Yea , ive also see 90% of Landers practices also.....7 on 7 in practice says a lot about a Qb ability to throw the peel.

(11-18-2014 05:36 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 05:30 PM)JMUPride Wrote:  you're absolutely right about Landers, but if we never see it, how are we supposed to know... I'm just going with what I've seen.

I probably have Maddox higher than most, but as a kid going to games I remember a few passes he made that just seemed godly... probably wasn't as good as I remember him, and the stats don't really support him being elite either. He was surrounded by some great talent in the late 90s (Payton, Brooks, Jones, Joyce) if I remember correctly).

Yea , ive also see 90% of Landers practices also.....7 on 7 in practice says a lot about a Qb ability to throw the peel.

You are basing this expert analysis on how many passes Landers threw to your brother and his ability in skeleton drills in practice. I seriously cannot believe Jon Gruden has not snatched you up to help him at his QB camp. I would tend to think the ability to throw the 'pill' in actual games with guys trying to knock the sh*t out of you you might carry just a little more weight.

You don't think Lee needed to knock a little rust off after playing triple option for the last 3 years? Throw out the first two games, particularly the Maryland game and Lee's numbers are good and have been pretty darn amazing since about week 4.

(11-18-2014 05:22 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 05:13 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 05:07 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 04:58 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 04:51 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  I've watched every game that Landers played and he threw my brother a lot of footballs. He averaged 14 and 16 yards per catch during his years with Landers. Landers just didnt have to pass the ball as much as Lee does. I hope we figure out a way to garner a consistent running game , Lee shouldnt have the pressure on him to make play after play with his arm.

You like calls to watch the tape -- then take your own advice. Go watch some Eriq Williams, Mike Cawley, Justin Rascati tapes ---- they could sling it. Along with Vad they can all throw it better than Landers. I am not trying to diminish what Landers could do very well (Tebow before Tebow with a FB playing QB) and that was lead a very conservative offense and pound the football. I have seen them all play over the years so I will pass on the tape --- I actually saw it first hand.

We are speaking on Lee vs Landers , I have no need to watch Williams and Cawley. Landers was a Freshman when I was a senior , and I watched Lee most of this spring.
My opinion wont change until Lee gets consistently better mechanical wise .

Da*n well I would hate to see how efficient Lee would be if his mechanics did not SUCK! Perhaps EW and Drew M should consult our on-campus QB guru to fix Vad's mechanical issues. Have you offerred up your services to fix Vad to them yet? Go back and watch some tape of Landers he had a very slooooow and elongated release --- not the quick release you want in a QB but he was effective doing what he did.

Sarcasm noted , but read what people were saying about Lee early in the season. Completion percentages 45% and under means he needed work.
Also Rascati had the same issue with a very long release , that kept him out of the NFL.

Lee had a bum knee and the pass blocking wasn't there the first few games, one of those things would effect his mechanics and the other one the amount of time he had to make his reads and deliver the ball accurately.

(11-18-2014 05:57 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 05:36 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 05:30 PM)JMUPride Wrote:  you're absolutely right about Landers, but if we never see it, how are we supposed to know... I'm just going with what I've seen.

I probably have Maddox higher than most, but as a kid going to games I remember a few passes he made that just seemed godly... probably wasn't as good as I remember him, and the stats don't really support him being elite either. He was surrounded by some great talent in the late 90s (Payton, Brooks, Jones, Joyce) if I remember correctly).

Yea , ive also see 90% of Landers practices also.....7 on 7 in practice says a lot about a Qb ability to throw the peel.

You are basing this expert analysis on how many passes Landers threw to your brother and his ability in skeleton drills in practice. I seriously cannot believe Jon Gruden has not snatched you up to help him at his QB camp. I would tend to think the ability to throw the 'pill' in actual games with guys trying to knock the sh*t out of you you might carry just a little more weight.

You don't think Lee needed to knock a little rust off after playing triple option for the last 3 years? Throw out the first two games, particularly the Maryland game and Lee's numbers are good and have been pretty darn amazing since about week 4.

Sarcasm noted

Well since it seems you need insight , the most common way to determine if a Qb has good mechanics and can throw the ball accurately is in Pass Skeleton. If a Qb cant complete passes in pass skele then he needs to find another position. When you watch Gruden Camp he takes players out on the field and do exactly this.

And my brother caught many different types of passes from Landers in 2007 and 2008 , which means he did put on tape his ability to throw the ball while players were attempting to knock him out.

And Lee got here in January, he had spring ball and a whole summer to work out the kinks , even though running the triple option doesn't disable your ability to throw an accurate pass. Now injuries and bad oline play can cause Qb's to play below skill level.

I don't think Landers is the appropriate comparison for Lee. His best comparison is Rascati. He has the same kind of smoothness about him that Justin had, and has more than enough running ability to keep defenses honest. They both also throw very catchable passes that have a little bit of touch, not just rifled in there like Thorpe would do. They both are capable of going through their progressions and moving around in the pocket. Rascati had a better supporting rushing attack, so their numbers aren't very comparable. But I haven't been this confident in a QB since Rascati. Landers is a whole different animal that is incomparable.

most comparible QB to Vad JMU has had is Eriq Williams.... Rascati was a scrambler, not a runner. Rascati was similar to Cawley.

The favoring running QB to favoring passing QB spectrum, if my memory serves, goes basically goes from

Landers/Thorpe (run-first) --- Lee/Williams (hybrid) --- Rascati/Cawley/Dudzik (agile/scrambling) --- LeZotte/Maddox (immobile)

2.) VAD LEE NAMED TO PAYTON WATCH LIST

James Madison redshirt junior quarterback Vad Lee (Durham, N.C./Hillside (Georgia Tech)) has been added to the 2014 Walter Payton Award Watch List, The Sports Network announced Tuesday. The 28th annual Payton Award, presented by The Sports Network, will be bestowed on the outstanding player in the FCS on Dec. 15 at the national awards banquet.

Starting all 11 games in leading the Dukes to an 8-3 record so far, Lee has paced the JMU offense to 34.9 points per game and a No. 17 ranking in The Sports Network Top 25 Poll. The Dukes rank 10th in total offense at 497.5 yards per game and 13th nationally in passing offense at 281.5 yards a contest. The offense and defense have also combined for a +0.91 turnover margin, tied for seventh nationally.

(11-18-2014 01:48 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 12:45 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 12:34 PM)JMU_Newbill Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 12:32 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  Landers , he was a threat on the read option plays and could throw the ball better than Lee. Lee is a better athlete and faster than landers , but lacks that " toughness" that these read option Qbs need to possess.

So do you think if Landers had been playing in a more-friendly offense, he could put up the passing numbers Lee has this year?

Yes , but they ran the ball so well ( MM style ) they wouldnt be throwing the ball this much.

Not a knock on Lee, he should have been on the national radar , they bascially ignored his numbers. Lee is a top five athlete ever at JMU.

Come on now....I loved watching Landers play and it was a completely different style but you have to be kidding saying that Landers was a better passer than Lee. I seriously questioned MM's coaching at times but if he chose simply not to pass the freaking ball giving he had a better passer than Lee playing QB then MM was a freaking idiot and cost JMU at least 2 national championships. Now I don't think MM was that inept as a coach but to hear HotRod tell it MM must have been the best defense JMU ever faced.

Landers:
07'
PASSING GP Effic Cmp-Att-Int Pct Yds TD Lng Avg/G
Rodney Landers 12 148.22 130-205-5 63.4 1678 13 61 139.8

08'
PASSING GP Effic Cmp-Att-Int Pct Yards TD Long Avg/G
Rodney Landers 14 170.7 112-177-4 63.3 1534 21 55 109.6

Lee:
PASSING GP Efficiency Comp-Att-Int Pct Yards TD Long Avg/G
Lee, Vad 11 141.32 241-405-6 59.51 % 3066 26 93 278.73

Obviously Lee is way higher in attempts, completions, yds, TDs, INTs.

-Completion % Landers better both years.
-Yards per completion Landers better both years (About 13.7 and 12.9 to Lee's 12.7).
-Yards per attempt Landers better both years.
-Efficiency Landers better both years.

-TD to INT ratio Lee better than Landers both years (4.33 to 4.25 and 2.6).

(11-18-2014 03:53 PM)waterwagen Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 01:48 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 12:45 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 12:34 PM)JMU_Newbill Wrote:  

(11-18-2014 12:32 PM)Hotrod829 Wrote:  Landers , he was a threat on the read option plays and could throw the ball better than Lee. Lee is a better athlete and faster than landers , but lacks that " toughness" that these read option Qbs need to possess.

So do you think if Landers had been playing in a more-friendly offense, he could put up the passing numbers Lee has this year?

Yes , but they ran the ball so well ( MM style ) they wouldnt be throwing the ball this much.

Not a knock on Lee, he should have been on the national radar , they bascially ignored his numbers. Lee is a top five athlete ever at JMU.

Come on now....I loved watching Landers play and it was a completely different style but you have to be kidding saying that Landers was a better passer than Lee. I seriously questioned MM's coaching at times but if he chose simply not to pass the freaking ball giving he had a better passer than Lee playing QB then MM was a freaking idiot and cost JMU at least 2 national championships. Now I don't think MM was that inept as a coach but to hear HotRod tell it MM must have been the best defense JMU ever faced.

I tend to agree. I really love Landers, but to me Lee looks like an even better version, including in the passing game. If Landers was better at anything, I would say it was on the ground, especially in traffic. But I admit my memory isn't the best.

Just like passing Lee had way more attempts, completions, yds, yds per game, TDs, INTs, rushing Landers has way more carries, yds, ypds per game, TDs (28 to 7 so far). The thing that sticks out though is yds per carry. Landers in his Jr and Sr yr 5.7 and 6.6, Lee 4.6.

Landers
07:
RUSHING GP Att Gain Loss Net Avg TD Long Avg/G
Rodney Landers 12 223 1324 51 1273 5.7 12 34 106.1

08'
RUSHING GP Att Gain Loss Net Avg TD Long Avg/G
Rodney Landers 14 268 1884 114 1770 6.6 16 62 126.4

Lee:
RUSHING GP Att Gain Loss Net Avg TD Long Avg/G
Lee, Vad 11 161 943 202 741 4.6 7 76 67.36

Another thing, Landers, listed at 220, would truck people. A good example we saw on the thread last week with the JMU/RU 2008 late 4th qtr highlight video where Landers ran over that RU DB, knocking his helmet off. Lee, listed at 225, probably would have slid. We saw Landers drag and/or run over people countless times. Don't recall seeing Lee run over anyone yet.

With the rushing I don't think Lee is remotely close to what Landers was.